Re: Sexual Harassment, AKA "Help Me"

[LonelyStr8manInSF]

This is not an actual SC story; perhaps it should be in the OT area, but it is directly in response to the thread "Sexual Harassment." Reading through that thread, I was struck by the total grossness of so many men, and it made me think of what I have witnessed and some of the responses I've gotten the few times I've worked up the nerve to approach a woman I don't know.

So here's my point: building on the experiences you women of the SC boards have had, what SHOULD a guy do? I am a Nice Guy™ of the worst variety - even when I think a girl is sending signals, I'm generally too worried that I am misreading and will offend her to do anything. What is the proper way to approach an attractive woman (and no, I'm not just talking about bust, smart women are HOT) who is mostly or entirely a stranger? And how can I do it without seeming desperate or coming across as "Too Nice"? This dilemma has plagued, thus I seek the answer from the repository of all knowledge: the Internet.

Edit: one thing I forgot to mention: How does one tell the difference between "friendliness, possibly including light flirting, for tips" from actual flirting due to interest?

[JustADude]

Glad to see I'm not alone in feeling that way about approaching a woman, Lonely.

So, ladies, here's a chance to give some pointers to us guys who actually try NOT to be sleezeballs. How about throwing us a bone? *beg*beg*beg*puppyeyes*

[iradney]

Well, seeing as how I was the one to initiate most of my relationships, maybe I'm not the best person to give advice. But a generally good idea is when she:

giggles aLOT around you
mirrors your body language (you shift from one hip to the other, she does the same, you lean on a counter, she does the same)
generally moving into your Personal Space
lots of coy hair playing
lip licking
prolonged eye contact
drawing of attention to her assets (wrists, neck, breasts, hips, lips etc)
finds excuses to touch you (like laying her hand on your arm for a second too long while telling you something)
finds excuses to come talk to you

stuff like that. Mind you, some women (and men!) are incorrigible flirts... :(

[Boozy]

What is the proper way to approach an attractive woman (and no, I'm not just talking about bust, smart women are HOT) who is mostly or entirely a stranger?

Now wait a minute...if she's mostly a stranger, how would you know that she's smart? ;)

When I was single, I didn't like being approached by guys I didn't know. Women have to be careful, y'know? And if a stranger approached me, it was only because of how I looked. They knew nothing else about me. Maybe it should have been flattering, but it wasn't.

However, if I was approached by, say, someone I had a class with but had never talked to before, I could say to myself "He thinks I'm cute AND we both have an interest in 18th century France."

If you do see a woman who you feel the need to talk to completely out of the blue, I'd just be completely honest: "I never do this, and I admit that I know next to nothing about you, but I think you're cute. I don't suppose you'd give me the chance to get to know more about you over coffee?" If you acknowledge that you know the situation is unusual and not like you, she may be put more at ease.

I'm basing this on how I felt when I was single and dating. I recognize that I might just be weird. ;)

[DesignFox]

Well, it's hard to say really. I was always the girl whose friends had to tell her the nice guy over there was hitting on her.

I can tell you what is creepy to me, though...

1) Leering. (having conversations with my body parts instead of my face, or just being all out obvious that your staring)

2) Making lewd remarks. More so if I don't know you. The nice girl ringing up your transaction doesn't want to hear sex jokes whether or not they are directly targeted at her. This is hard to explain because there's a difference between mild innuendo and full out lewd comments... let's just say there's a line, don't cross it. If you think it won't go over well, don't say it.

3) Telling her you made the last girl cry with your comments will get you nowhere.

4) Don't do the thing where you grab at her when she tries to hand you your items.

5) If you're on Viagra keep it to yourself....... >_<

6) Don't let one of your first questions be "How old are you?" If you have to ask to make sure she's legal...it might be a problem. I notice that only creepy guys have asked me this question right away. Non-creeps tended to talk to me first, not just skip straight to the age question.

7) Watch how you phrase a compliment- it's all in the delivery. A nice, respectful, sincere compliment will be received very well. If you deliver a line...or drop your voice to that "tone" you know...the "tone" heavy with other motives...well...expect to get ignored or worse.


8) If she tells you she has a boyfriend, or you make a pass and she doesn't respond/says no. STOP!

It's complex, yet simple.

If the girl plays back, then you can continue to flirt. If she doesn't, let it drop. Use your common sense and put decency first. You'll get farther that way. ;)

[Rapscallion]

giggles aLOT around you


"At" you is probably bad.


mirrors your body language (you shift from one hip to the other, she does the same, you lean on a counter, she does the same)


I once managed to get an entire group of guys standing exactly the same way I was doing. Not always recommended...


prolonged eye contact


How does glancing at you when thinking not looking count? Does that mean they're nervous or attracted?


drawing of attention to her assets (wrists, neck, breasts, hips, lips etc)


I take it an announcement of "I'm just off to the toilet," doesn't fall into this category?

Rapscallion

[blas]

Come on, you gentlemen cannot be that dense and stupid.

If a girl appears uncomfortable, has a hard time looking at you in the eyes, and makes sure to keep her hands/arms as close to herself as possible, she's really uncomfortable and not interested.

If a girl is smiling, making eye contact with ease, and chatting easily with you, then you're golden.

[MadMike]

Come on, you gentlemen cannot be that dense and stupid.


I don't think anyone here has a problem telling when the woman is not interested.

It's trying to tell whether she's interested or just the friendly, touchy-feely type that's the tricky part.

[blas]

I'd avoid women like that. One of my friends is like that, and she's gotten many a guy in trouble with his girlfriend and caused much drama at parties.

Most of the time I'm quick to slap the guilty verdict on the guy, but in these instances, the guy was doing nothing and just standing there and she'd walk right up and start flirting. She's a serial flirter, and she sometimes doesn't even care if their girlfriend is within eye or earshot.

I think the reason it's hard for guys to tell is because not a lot of girls will flat out ask a guy out. Maybe we're still stuck in the stone age, maybe we're just as scared......I won't ask a guy out to save my life. I'm petrified. As new age and feminist as I am, I still feel a girl asking a guy out is somewhat of a desperate thing. But that's just me.

[Andara Bledin]

I'm a super-friendly individual. I chat. A lot. It'd be really understandable for a guy to think I was interested in more than just being friends.

I have no advice for how to approach a woman. I've never been approached, since I tend to talk to everyone on my own.

^-.-^

[Caveat Emptor]

Well, I am glad I am not alone in this regard. I have had an inferiority complex since I was young, and while it has gotten much better, in regards to the "fairer sex" I still have problems.... :(

If I can get someone engaged in conversation by starting with something like helping her with a problem and transitioning I'm fine, but going up to someone out of the blue, no, I would fall apart...

I saw a pretty girl a week and a half ago at work, she smiled at me twice, and I have wanted to approach her, but I have not seen her again since!!!

[Mr. Rager!]

Just do what I do...

Get to know the girl, try and read between the lines. And then after about 4 or 5 months, finally work up the nerve to tell her you like her as more than a friend.

Actually, girls are a mystery to me too. I can tell when they don't hate me... but beyond that, not so much. But, I do alright. ;)

[myswtghst]

Granted, I'll start by putting it out there that I am a rather friendly individual. I can be a bit of a serial flirter, and I constantly hug my friends. So I know I've "led people on" in the past, and I apologize for all the people I've misled, just to start.

If a girl is being friendly with you for no apparent reason (she's not serving you or trying to get your money, she's not stuck in a room alone with you for some odd reason, etc) it's a fair bet that she's at least interested in getting to know you. I always look for someone who wants to talk to me, about me (and himself) for a bit before he tries to get a phone number or a date. In the end, it means that beyond being nice to look at, I'm also reasonably interesting to talk to. ;)

I'm a big fan of the basics--try to pick up on something about her (a shirt with some sort of band or sports logo, type of shoes, purse, etc) and strike up a conversation about that. Either point out a common interest, or admit you've got no idea who suchandsuch band is, and were curious to find out. Or just compliment her on something that isn't physical--her style, her cool shoes, her piercings, w/e.

I'm also down with guys who send a drink or something similar in social situations. Offering to by me a drink, pay for the next round of pool, etc, is good. I've also had guys ask me to help them pick a karaoke song/ask what I'm going to be singing at the karaoke bar I frequent, which works quite well, as you get to know eachother talking about music.

Generally, to fall into creepy territory, you do one of the following:
~touching me for no reason when we've just met
~leering openly, so I feel skeezed out
~winking
~bad, gross or really lame pick up lines, if they're said without a trace of humor in them. If you're trying to be funny, it may be ok, but your delivery better be good.

And that's all I can think of at the moment.

[JustADude]

I'm also down with guys who send a drink or something similar in social situations. Offering to by me a drink, pay for the next round of pool, etc, is good.

Nice to know THAT bit of advice still works. :D I'm always worried that 'classic' ice-breakers like that will be considered in bad taste these days.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

The basic problem with those kind of ice breakers is that sometimes guys think if a girl accepts them, she owes them something, if you get my drift.

If you go this route, make sure you don't give that impression and you'll be fine.

[Argabarga]

Come on, you gentlemen cannot be that dense and stupid.

Oh yes we can, I mean, I haven't the slightest clue on how the little rituals of flirting, much less dating are supposed to work, I was too shy to even try to learn them in school, continued to be too shy in college, and now at 30, I'm ashamed to admit I never learned, so I just kind of catastrophize over how bad I'll mess it up.

[blas]

Here's an obvious one

You offer to buy a girl a drink and she says "I'd rather just have the money"
That's one of my favorites to use at parties....

Or "Can I sit here?"........"Yeah, there's an empty chair over there!"

"Wanna dance?"........"If you know someone who knows how, by all means!"

Ok bad example. Girls like me are probably the reason guys are so scared.

[Shabo]

I think that the only way to really know for certain is to try. If you never try, you will never get a yes or no, and you'll never know if she really liked you or not. I've asked guys out before, and I tend to send the wrong signals to guys, but now I wear a simple band on my left ring finger (I'm not married or engaged, just a Christmas gift from the BF) and it keeps many of them from getting the wrong impression... as long as they notice. But then again, the guys I hang out with don't really look for that yet.

Men, be courageous. If you have enough self-confidence to ask her out after talking with her a few times, then she will respect you more as a friend, even if she isn't interested, and if nothing comes of it, well, you tried. And yeah, it sucks getting shot down, but that's just part of the game. Serial flirts are impossible to read if they are girls (serial flirt guys are easier in the fact that nothing ever comes from their flirting whereas girls will wait for the guy to make the move, and the guy is somewhat reluctant because he doesn't know if she's really interested or not, creating a stalemate if you will.) Ask to meet her friends or go on a group date, and then ask her friends if she is always that flirty or if it's just you, but do it in a laughing, joking matter. They'll be straight with you in that regard. If she is a serial flirt, and she's really interested in you, she'll ask you out. If not, well, hey, flirts are fun people to hang out with, IMO.

[blas]

Shabo, you're very right. I've learned that lesson about guys before the hard way. But now that I know male serial flirts aren't serious about me, I know not to waste my time. I just get flattered and my ego stroked and I'm happy. Then it's done.

Maybe we all need a copy of Dating for Dummies.

[blas]

4 or 5 months? Holy balls of fire that's a long time to wait to tell someone your feelings.

By then they will most likely have found someone else.

[LonelyStr8manInSF]

I think I need to be a bit more specific -
I'm 22. My job puts me into contact with lots of very nice, very social, very rich 40-something to 60-something aged people. So unless they want to set me up with their daughters, work is an avenue from which I meet 0 potential dates. My social network is unfortunately stunted, because I only moved to San Francisco a little over a year ago. So I am kind of on my own when it comes to finding girls (which should be easier, given the ratio of straight girls to straight guys in this city).

An example of what I am hoping to learn: when buying a cup of coffee, how do I differentiate between a girl working for her tips and a girl who is interested? Both make eye contact, both smile at me.....*argh*. Help?

[blas]

I've never met a guy that's worth any type of wait....but nonetheless...

If coffee shops and restaurants and bars are inappropriate places, where are appropriate places?

Oh yes, Best Buy :) I knew I forgot to do something today. It was so damn hot out I didn't want to melt driving to Best Buy to flirt with their sales associates. My goodness do they have some good looking guys working there....

[Mr. Rager!]

Not when she's worth the wait...



Totally worth the wait

[BusBus]

If there is someone at a bar/coffee shop etc... that you would like to go out with, skip on the cheesy come-ons and be honest. Something like...

"Look, you seem like a really nice person. Would you want to go out sometime?" Maybe throw in a nice smile.....

This way, you don't come across as slimy and she can politely decline if necessary.