Crushing a new generation's ideals on the phone

[Rapscallion]

Friday saw me in Customer Services. The phone, as is its wont, decided to ring. Fortunately, someone was making this happen.

Me: You're through to Rapscallion in Customer Services.

Caller: Hi! Can you tell me if you sell Fairly Traded pads of paper?

It should be noted here that all the paper products we sell are, by policy, recycled, but I decided to check surreptitiously that none were FT. I was fairly certain, but...

Me: Um, I don't think so, but *clickety-click* ah, no, we don't.

Caller: Do you know anyone who would? It's for a university project, you see.

Me: I suspect nobody does.

Caller: But someone must! There has to be!

Me: All our paper products are recycled, since there's plenty of recycled paper around. However, for it to be FT, it would have to come from a third-world country. There's no point dragging recycled paper products from there to here when we have so much here, bad for food miles etc, so we'd have to take fresh paper from lumber. The last thing the third world needs right now is more deforestation.

Caller: ...

Me: ...

Caller: *I heard the clink as the light bulb sparked into life* Oh! I see!

Me: Anything else I can help with?

Caller: Well, it's for a project, so I think I'll be calling back asking about a different product.

With that threat on her lips, she bade me farewell and left me to get on with looking at the mountain of work remaining.

Rapscallion

[Gurndigarn]

Too many people live on buzzwords, and don't bother to think about what those buzzwords mean. It's as true for ecoweenie wannabees as it is for CEOs.

[Seshat]

They're so cute when they're naive and simplistic. :angel:

[earl colby pottinger]

I almost made a grown man cry after I explained that Native Americans never were 'One with the Earth' in the sense he wanted to believe. A quick explanation about 'Slash & Burn' farming and the use of hand drums to drive all game in an area off a cliff as a form of mass slaughter broke him I think.

Did not help him that I was there to debug their new high-speed internet connection, and was using Google to find articles/pictures to back what I was saying.

[Rapscallion]

Heh - reminds me of the time we had a hippy call up about palm oil and our coordinator talked to him on the phone and persuaded him that the most ethical source of edible fats he could have would be hydrogenated fats, despite the apparent health risks.

Rapscallion

[rvdammit]

Nuke power good - low / no carbon emissions.

[Cyphr]

Nuke power good - low / no carbon emissions.

Where would the carbon come from in the first place the puppy you forgot to take out of the reactor before you started it?

[rvdammit]

Where would the carbon come from in the first place the puppy you forgot to take out of the reactor before you started it?

It depends on how you count the carbons. It can be argued that all those emitted in the plant's construction belong to the plant. Dozers, diggers and the like, for example.

[Horsetuna]

That makse sense, although I dont understand the 'bad food miles' part of it.

[earl colby pottinger]

It depends on how you count the carbons. It can be argued that all those emitted in the plant's construction belong to the plant. Dozers, diggers and the like, for example.

But it is only the anti-nuclear eco-fans who insist you must count that carbon for the nukes, but not for the solar (low-medium), wind(medium) and hydro (high). And hydro is veeery high because you can't just count the carbon for the huge dams but also the all the plants that will rot from the flooded area.

There is nothing wrong wanting to do what harms the environment the least, but don't start believing the myths of the out and out eco-nuts.

[Rapscallion]

That makse sense, although I dont understand the 'bad food miles' part of it.

People concerned about carbon emissions are worried about food and products that come from further than necessary. It's a lovely way to guilt trip greenie weenies (the sort who are guilt-strick from having to breathe, not the ones who take sensible steps to reduce their impact).

Rapscallion

[wolfie]

But it is only the anti-nuclear eco-fans who insist you must count that carbon for the nukes, but not for the solar (low-medium), wind(medium) and hydro (high).

Proper response to those types is: "Typical NIMBY attitude - you're in favour of nuclear power, but only if the reactor is 93 million miles from your home."

[protege]

Proper response to those types is: "Typical NIMBY attitude - you're in favour of nuclear power, but only if the reactor is 93 million miles from your home."

Problems at Three Mile Island (interestingly referred to as TMI in the local news :lol:) and the Chernobyl disaster haven't helped matters. TMI wasn't nearly as bad as the media made it out to be--there was no meltdown, and if any radiation escaped, it was an extremely tiny amount. Chernobyl was another story--that literally blew up during a power test. The only reason that blew up, was that the safety mechanisms were disabled. From what I understand, that accident totally destroyed the area--not only were many people killed, but so was the local economy.

With all that said, it's no wonder nobody wants a power plant in their backyard.

Locally, there's a coal plant, which has drawn many protests. People don't want it where it is...never mind that when the plant was built, *nobody* lived nearby!

[Stormraven]

Well, that's pretty standard. Just ask any airport. People will move into houses in the flight path because they're cheap, then start demanding that the city/county/state do something about the noise level.

[protege]

Some of that is going on here now. When our main airport (Greater Pitt) was built, nobody lived out there, save a few farmers and plenty of cows. Now, that area is suddenly 'trendy' and everyone's building mansions out there. And yes, they are bitching about the noise.

Not far from me, we have Allegheny County Airport. Again, when it was built, the area was mostly fields. Then people started moving out of downtown to escape the pollution, and later, taxes. Most of us got used to the planes flying overhead and the noise.

Didn't stop someone putting in a trailer park at the end of one of the runways, though. Of course all hell broke loose when a plane crashed *in* said trailer park :eek: In fact, the county said it "shouldn't have been there in the first place." Uh, if that's the case, why the hell did you let the zoning for it pass? Needless to say, most of that park is empty...but you still can see the trailer foundations on Google Earth :rolleyes:

[Horsetuna]

oh, so Bad Food Mile=More food spoiled during shipping? I understand now!

[Broomjockey]

oh, so Bad Food Mile=More food spoiled during shipping? I understand now!

No. Bad Food Mile = energy expended for shipping that shouldn't have been. A lot of third world countries use classic slash and burn techniques (last I researched) so food production there isn't the best option. Add to that transporting large amounts long distances, and the greenhouse gasses impact adds up.

That's why many "green" people now work on a principle called "the 100 mile diet," where you buy food grown and processed as close to your location as possible, thus reducing transportation impacts, and most modern farms reuse land efficiently, meaning nothing new has to be cut down.

[BravoOrig]

We have that going on in Des Moines. They're turning old warehouse buildings downtown into expensive fancy lofts that people can buy. One is by a railroad crossing and people started complaining about the engineer blowing the train horn at night when approaching the signal. I laughed when a newscaster covering the story made a comment asking why the people didn't notice the tracks there when looking to move in.

Other examples are new suburbs popping up in former corn fields and the home owners wanting to build a wall so they don't have to see the old country farmhouse that has been there for over a century and is still lived in.

[Rapscallion]

http://www.ecomaximus.co.uk/

Elephant dung paper is apparently a fair trade product for some companies. Wow!

I live and learn.

Rapscallion

[coldcupofjoe]

erm...

Elephant dung paper?

That would be great stuff to get for one of my coworkers. He tends to eat paper as a nervous habit.

Tell him after his first swallow...

[rvdammit]

No. Bad Food Mile = energy expended for shipping that shouldn't have been. A lot of third world countries use classic slash and burn techniques (last I researched) so food production there isn't the best option. Add to that transporting large amounts long distances, and the greenhouse gasses impact adds up.

That's why many "green" people now work on a principle called "the 100 mile diet," where you buy food grown and processed as close to your location as possible, thus reducing transportation impacts, and most modern farms reuse land efficiently, meaning nothing new has to be cut down.

Have you seen http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7150834.stm .

[Broomjockey]

Have you seen http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7150834.stm .

Not until you just showed it to me, but it goes to show what Rap's "greenie-weenies" are about. They don't consider the whole picture. I also like how the environmentalist at the end says it doesn't make sense, and that it doesn't matter if it's carbon neutral because it's all about "minimizing costs and maximizing profits." Uh, if a company can be more profitable while remaining environmentally friendly, good for them. :headshake:

[Igorina]

Oy!

This thread has me twitching.

I work in agricultural research, and if I had a US dollar for everytime the whole organic farming vs. conventional farming arguement was brought up when I mention my job, I could have paid off my college debts.

As for the different ways of producing electiricty...people forget that wind farms have an annoying tendency to chopp up migrating birdies and bats that use those higher altitude winds to travel.

[Rapscallion]

Well, that would be more eco-friendly if people over here were willing to accept crap wages to shell it by hand, but we're not really interested in green issues if it impacts our lifestyle too much, y'know?

I found out recently that the British parmesan cheese we sold (manufacturer went bankrupt) had to be shipped to Italy and back so it could be said to be coming from Parmesan, one of the EU's protected origins (you can't market a fizzy wine as champagne unless it comes from the region known as champagne, for example). Now that's true lunacy because of bureaucracy.

Rapscallion

[Tanasi]

Within my area of operations we have Watts Bar Nuke (Cracker)plant, three or four different coal fired steam plants, nearly a dozen hydroelectric dams, and a wind farm on Buffalo Mtn. TVA just let a contract with Westinghouse to finish the second reactor for the Cracker. The wind farm does kill a lot of migrating birds and for some reason crows and buzzards.
I've thought about getting the "organic" seal for my produce but frankly it's too expensive and the return on investment takes way too long. I do use a lot of manure and I don't over fertilize with the man made stuff. If asked I tell them I try to make as low an impact as I can but to survive as a farmer I can't legitimately say my stuff is totally organic. Now my beef on the other hand I'm billing as hormone and antibiotic and free range. Except for the their last month all my cattle are pasture feed. I do not use any antibiotics unless the bovine is truly sick with something and when it's cured I won't put it up for sale for six months and not all cattle get sick. Now days with the whole mad-cow scare we have to be able to track every head and that requires tagging them in their ears.
I keep my hogs up in a pen since if turned loose on pasture they'll ruin it.
When the area around me was being developed I received a lot of complaints about the smell and the noise. I would always tell them I was here first and if they didn't know or notice it's wasn't my fault. So far the courts have sided with me.
Near one of my gun clubs there's a sub-division of half-back yankees. They complained and complained about the noise from the range and threatened to bring suit. We were ready for them TN has a law that says gun ranges can't be sued for noise, especially if the range was there first (range has been there since the Spanish/American War). The county is developing a huge rec park litterally next door to the range with soccor fields, walking, biking and running trails. One trail comes with a few yards of the pistol range. :eek:

[Rapscallion]

Curious - I've never heard the term 'half back' before. I know the type, though. We have yuppies over here who deliberately move to countryside areas to live, preferring to commute for hours each day. They drive up the price of rural housing, shop in a nearby town (driving local shops out of business), and then complain bitterly about the smell of freshly fertilised fields or about the noise of church bells being rung etc.

Rapscallion

[rvdammit]

The wind farm does kill a lot of migrating birds and for some reason crows and buzzards.

Without trying to sound callous and cruel I'm betting the crows and buzzards are coming in for the free food and not knowing how it got there.

[crazylegs]

Without trying to sound callous and cruel I'm betting the crows and buzzards are coming in for the free food and not knowing how it got there.

Sounds fair, they are carrion birds after all.

[Igorina]

Tanasi,

Despite the complaints from various groups, the US has one of the more stringent codes for food being labelled 'organic'. The famliy of a gal I used to work with decided to turn the family dairy farm organic, and was told that they would have to farm completely organic for five years before they could label their milk 'organic'. In addition to keeping the paperwork for those five years saying the feed and the manure they brought in from outside was also organic.

I have heard of farmers having good marketing success with rotational grazing and raising their cattle via pasturing.

[Ironclad Alibi]

Curious - I've never heard the term 'half back' before. I know the type, though. We have yuppies over here who deliberately move to countryside areas to live, preferring to commute for hours each day. They drive up the price of rural housing, shop in a nearby town (driving local shops out of business), and then complain bitterly about the smell of freshly fertilised fields or about the noise of church bells being rung etc.

Rapscallion

The term "half back" in the US refers to people who move from the northern states to Florida (or nearby) when they retire. But they do not like life in Florida for various reasons, nor do they want to move back to the land of snow and ice from whence they came. So they move half way back to states like North Carolina and Tennessee. Thus they are called "half-backs." Being retired, they have nothing better to do than sit around all day looking for things to complain about. At least that's what it seemed like back when I was working on an auto safety hotline.

[wolfie]

The term "half back" in the US refers to people who move from the northern states to Florida (or nearby) when they retire. But they do not like life in Florida for various reasons, nor do they want to move back to the land of snow and ice from whence they came. So they move half way back to states like North Carolina and Tennessee. Thus they are called "half-backs."

Too bad the CSA lost the War of Northern Aggression - if they'd won, dealing with the half-backs would be a simple matter of deporting them as undesirable aliens.

[CancelMyService]

Some of that is going on here now. When our main airport (Greater Pitt) was built, nobody lived out there, save a few farmers and plenty of cows. Now, that area is suddenly 'trendy' and everyone's building mansions out there. And yes, they are bitching about the noise.

:



I don't live out there (actually I'm on the other side of the county) but it does freak me out to go to Robinson and see the shadow of low flying planes on the highway ahead of me. My first thought when everyone started moving out there was "do they realize there will be planes overhead almost 24/7?" Guess the answer was no :lol:

[prb]

But it is only the anti-nuclear eco-fans who insist you must count that carbon for the nukes, but not for the solar (low-medium), wind(medium) and hydro (high). And hydro is veeery high because you can't just count the carbon for the huge dams but also the all the plants that will rot from the flooded area.We use "green" power which is a combination of wind and eco-logo certified low-impact small-scale hydro. Doesn't rot plants or damage fish habitats.

[earl colby pottinger]

We use "green" power which is a combination of wind and eco-logo certified low-impact small-scale hydro. Doesn't rot plants or damage fish habitats.

I am of-course talking big hydro that flood entire valleys. On the small scale, if fish runs are added for streams that do have migrating fish the small ponds behind the dams serve as safer rest spots and increase the number of fish a stream can support.

And of-course if you just added a small diverting pipe to a large stream with the run-off returning to said-stream it is near impossible to see any change from the added power system.

I am talking GREEN-NAZIs, they seem against any system that they don't think is 'green' regardless what it's real carbon footprint is, but interesting enough also raise a holy war if you want to put a wind farm or large scale banks of solar panels in their neighborhood.

[PuckishOne]

I don't think it needs to be said, yet again, that political spew gets a thread closed faster than you can say "thread closed."

Thread closed.