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View Full Version : Mr. "No I will not show you my ID"...


JChristine22
10-18-2006, 08:39 AM
Sorry but this is long!

So if anyone has read this (http://www.customerssuck.com/board/showthread.php?t=3362) thread by Amalthea called "Does owning a credit card rot your brain" then you have heard of the jackass and the poor cashier who had to deal with him... that was me... allow me to fill you in on the details... Lets start from the FIRST time I had this guy...

So its about a week into my job as a cashier in the bookstore... I've trained well and I was told to always ask to see an ID with a credit card thats shows the name and signature that matches with the card... So this guy walks up and I greet him as I would anyone else and then when it comes time to pay he whips out his card...

Me: Is that going to be Debit or Credit?
SC: Credit.
Me: Alright, If I could just see an ID with that...
SC: *Stands there as if he didn't hear me*
ME: Sir if I could see an ID please...
SC: You know you can't ask to see my ID as a form of idetification... it CLEARLY states that in your merchant agreement!
Me: *a little taken aback* Um I'm sorry but I was told by our managers that I need to see and ID...
SC *shows me his ID* You need to let you manager know about that cuz you guys could get in a lot of trouble and not be able to take cards anymore...
Me: I'll let them know... Have a Nice Day .... *mumble*ass*mumble*.

So time passes but I am always alittle shy about asking for ID (cuz I don't want ANOTHER dose of "kiss this" from the customers... then one fine friggin day a guy comes in saying he was just picking a book up for his wife (he looks familiar...) So I get the book that was ordered off the shelf and ring it up and such and he goes to pay with a card...

Me: Is that going to be Debit or Credit?
SC: Credit.
Me: Alright if I could just see and ID.
SC: The signature on the back is all you need to see.
Me: I need to see an ID to make sure thats YOU *looking on the back to find that the signature has rubbed off from the swiping*
SC: YOUR merchant agreement CLEARLY states that you can't ask for an ID as a primary form of Identification...
ME: *thinking* Jesus.... NOT YOU AGAIN!!!! *but saying* Yes but I am following our store policy.
SC: I am sick of trying to use my credit card and ALWAYS being asked for ID...
Me: Well you can swipe it and enter your PIN...
SC: I WANT to run it as credit. YOUR merchant agreement-
Me: Yes sir I remeber the LAST time you came in... I talked to the manager and he informed me of OUR merchant agreement and it states NOTHING of the sort...
SC: Well you need to look at your merchant agreement...
Me: *holds up finger to signal him to shut the hell up and calls a manager*
M(manager): *comes up* Whats going on?
Me: *looks at the guy* Go ahead!
SC *goes off on his rant yet again like HE LOVES hearing this speech!*
M: But there is no signature on the back. if there is no signature than we cant compare it.
SC: It WAS signed but it rubbed off, and if I sign it again it will be void (or some stupid crap like that) Call VISA and they will tell you who I am.
M: How can VISA do that?
SM (Store Manager): *comes up at request of M* Sir I can't sell you anything until I can verify that YOUR name matches the one on the card. To do that I need to see you ID.
SC: No. Call VISA they will tell you who I am and if they tell me to show you an ID then I will.
*they call VISA while I am standing back SEETHING!!!!! I don't want this guy to get his way*

ANYWHO! VISA says that if he doesn't show an ID the NO SALE! (YAY!) and he produces his ID grudgingly.... I run the card and as he leaves I smile with a hint of a glare and say as NICELY as possible "Have a great day." He says nothing...

NOONE else has dealt with this guy in the store... only me! I swear I am still waiting for him to come in and bother me again... I will not help him. I'll suddenly have to use the bathroom or something...

symposes
10-18-2006, 10:42 AM
It amazes me how people get so pissed off, or flustered, or whatever when you ask for their ID for a credit card.
If i was standing behind one in line, i was say, "Hey can i use your credit card real quick, since you dont want them checking id, they wont know im not you."
or something like that.

MadMike
10-18-2006, 12:45 PM
ANYWHO! VISA says that if he doesn't show an ID the NO SALE! (YAY!) and he produces his ID grudgingly.... I run the card and as he leaves I smile with a hint of a glare and say as NICELY as possible "Have a great day." He says nothing...


So how much time did he waste with his childish argument? I'm sure he would have been out of there a lot sooner if he would have simply showed his ID.

It would have been funny as hell if his card would have declined. Or maybe not. Surely he would have yelled at you for it.

Boulder_Bear
10-18-2006, 01:39 PM
a quick point. When I was a manager at blockbuster we got word from corporate that we could no longer ask for ID when a customer was using a Mastercard. Maybe this retard got the two cards mixed up or something.

Moirae
10-18-2006, 02:28 PM
lol. That's funny. First time I've heard that actually. I'm currently working in a hotel (have worked hotels for many years though this is only casual) and in all my years in hotel work, we've always asked to see ID. The only thing we can't do is photocopy the ID. But see it... well what else is it there for? It's ID. That's the whole purpose of ID.

chainedbarista
10-18-2006, 02:41 PM
we got word from corporate that we could no longer ask for ID when a customer was using a Mastercard.

if this holds true, then said customer cannot bitch when their card is lost/stolen, used by someone else, causing them a HUGE loss. if you don't want to take the risks of theft/loss and what follows, be smart and get out that ID, people.

CrazedClerk
10-18-2006, 03:34 PM
"you can't ask for an ID as a primary form of Identification..."

I find this statement a bit confusing lol.

Auto
10-18-2006, 03:44 PM
He may be acting like a SC but he's right that he doesn't have to show ID to use a CC.

As for showing ID in order to prevent someone from stealing my CC and using it -- if I see unauthorized charges on my statement, I call the CC company and they remove them. Since when does anyone in America pay for unauthorized charges on a CC?

I've been victim of identity theft. It is an unbeleiveable hassle to fix. I now pay much more careful attention to my ID cards than to CC. Sorry, but that's life in America nowadays.

Kogarashi
10-18-2006, 03:55 PM
He may be acting like a SC but he's right that he doesn't have to show ID to use a CC.

And on the flip side of that coin, the bookstore doesn't have to sell him anything at all if they're allowed to ask for ID, have that set as store policy, and he doesn't wish to comply.

phillippbo
10-18-2006, 04:50 PM
There are two issues going on here: the cardholder seems to think that the store can not ask for ID, and the store requires ID on every transaction. Being the inquisitive person that I am, I sauntered on over to visa.com and found the merchant agreement (well, not with all the legalese, but a plain-English version). It's located here:

http://usa.visa.com/download/business/accepting_visa/ops_risk_management/rules_for_visa_merchants.pdf

On page 29, it states that the cardholder is correct in that a merchant can not refuse to complete a transaction because the customer won't produce ID (except as noted below). HOWEVER, it also says that Visa does not stop merchants from asking for ID even though Visa strongly discourages it.

On the flip side of the coin, in this case the store had strong ground to stand on with Visa's backing. In this case, since the card is unsigned it is invalid (and interestingly enough, a card with "See ID" or "Ask for ID" in the signature spot is considered unsigned and also invalid). For the merchant to accept the card, the following series of events would need to happen:

- The cardholder's ID must be checked (it doesn't say, but the implication is to make sure the names match). If the law allows, the ID number and expiration date needs to be written on the recpt;

- The customer must sign the card in front of the person completing the transaction;

- The signature on the card and the ID must be compared and match.

If the cardholder refuses to show ID, and the transaction is processed anyway, and later the cardholder disputes the charge, the store can be held financially responsible. In other words, if the card is unsigned, and the customer doesn't do the above, you DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT THE CARD. In this case, JChristine22 and her bosses were completely right, and the dip with the card was totally wrong.

</visa lesson>

:)

----EDIT----

Whoops, forgot to mention. See page 33 about "Code 10" calls. If I were still in retail, anybody that ticked me off would likely become "suspicious" and I would need to call it in. Wouldn't stop the transaction, but would hold them up. I know, I know, revenge and all that, but sometimes you just can't help yourself...

;)

Amalthea
10-18-2006, 06:07 PM
Yeah, JChristine and I work at the same place. I'm sure she will have plenty of tales. (Just about to check the Coworkers folder to see if she's posted something about a certain SOMEONE from last night) Anyhow, on a related note, yesterday the Head Cashier informed me of a policy change. I knew that our policy to ask for ID for every credit transaction was something the Store Manager decided, not a corporate policy. Well, now we are NOT ALLOWED to ask for ID on a credit card transaction unless there is no signature on the card or it says "See ID" on it. So instead of asking for ID we're just supposed to ask to verify the signature on the card, and match it to what they sign on the receipt. One co-worker told me it was because the dipshit above called corporate, another said it has nothing to do with him. So, I'm not sure which is right. But hey :rolleyes: less asking for ID for me.

I had a lady once who told me she signed the back of her card different from the way she usually signed so that if thieves forged that signature it wouldn't really look like hers. But then how do you use the signature as verification? :confused:

Sofar
10-18-2006, 08:27 PM
We aren't allowed to tack on a surcharge for small credit card orders either, but we still do it. A lot of customers don't understand that we pay money to accept credit cards, and at our restaurant we lose money on anything less than three dollars and thirty-five cents. A man yesterday complained about how we didn't take American Express, we are a small town burger joint*. We can't afford to take American Express.

*I know, I live in the largest city in Washington. But if you've ever been here, it's more like about two dozen small towns really close together, with some big buildings between them all.

AFpheonix
10-18-2006, 10:58 PM
Heck, American Express is spendy even for big chains like mine. Last year, AM attempted to raise rates on us, and W simply prepared to stop accepting their cards. We won. Ha ha! :p

CanadaGirl
10-19-2006, 12:08 AM
Augh! Why don't these idiots understand that us asking for ID to verfiy their signature and name is to protect them from theft! At the liquor store I work at, we usually only check ID for large orders when a c/c card is used, because anyone with a stolen credit card won't just go and buy a $12 mickey. :lol:

He may be acting like a SC but he's right that he doesn't have to show ID to use a CC.

As for showing ID in order to prevent someone from stealing my CC and using it -- if I see unauthorized charges on my statement, I call the CC company and they remove them. Since when does anyone in America pay for unauthorized charges on a CC?

Unauthorized charges can be stopped by the cashier CHECKING FOR ID when you or the thief goes to pay for their purchase.

batmoody
10-19-2006, 12:57 AM
We never have to ask for ID. We dont even have to see their credit card.The customers do it all on their own through the debit machine. Which is fine with me, I don't want to have to deal with it. But I do get the occassional customer who will get pissed because I didnt ask to see their ID. The guy in this story is the perfect example of why. I just tell these jerks that its because too many people complained. (probably not true) That usually shuts them up.

repsac
10-19-2006, 03:24 AM
I remember having to call Visa once after a similar situation.

I forget the whole details, but the call basically went like this:

V: Thank you for calling Visa Merchant Care line, may I have your merch id?
M: rattles off a series of numbers and letters.
V: Ok, I've got you. What's the difficulty?
M: Got a customer (she yells something aloud that even the poor Visa girl can hear) that's refusing ID.
V: Have you checked the card's signature?
M: Can't. It's cut off.
V: What?
M: Cut off. Looks like they took a razor to it.
V: Ohkay...Did you ask for ID?
M: Yes.
V: And?
M: Refused.
V: Ok...Uh...hang on. (Gets put on hold)

About this time, the lady starts this rant about "black helicopters" and how the govt is out to get you, and how she'll have my job if I don't complete this sale...you know the rant.
V: Still there?
M: Yeah. Not going anyplace soon. Whatcha got for me?
V: Take the card and destroy it.
M: WTF?
V: We've notified the (city) police. They'll be there shortly. Take the card and destroy it. And, put her on the line.

I handed the phone over, and walked into the office. With a nice snip, the card was destroyed, and after the police arrived; I learned something rather curious.


Look at the back of any Visa or Credit type card. You'll see a fine print there that says that while you (the cardholder) carry the card, it's not yours to keep. At any time, the owner (visa or who ever) can revoke the card, request it taken, or,as in my case; order it destroyed on the spot.

I never found out why they had me do it, but I suspect she'd been up to something. Especially for them to call the cops.

Auto
10-19-2006, 04:52 PM
Augh! Why don't these idiots understand that us asking for ID to verfiy their signature and name is to protect them from theft! At the liquor store I work at, we usually only check ID for large orders when a c/c card is used, because anyone with a stolen credit card won't just go and buy a $12 mickey. :lol:



Unauthorized charges can be stopped by the cashier CHECKING FOR ID when you or the thief goes to pay for their purchase.

The whole point behind CC is that Visa/MC have to swallow the loss if someone uses a stolen card. That's the deal they make with stores. In return the stores can't require customers to show ID to use the card. The merchant's only responsibility is to verify the signatures match.

It's mindboggling that people still believe that if their CC is stolen and used, they are somehow on the hook.

I never show ID. I'm not a SC about it. I just ask for a manager and invariably, he tells the clerk to go ahead with the transaction. Besides, once the card has been run and the purchase approved, then a sale has occurred. The merchandise is legally mine and I'll see the charge on my next statement. There's really nothing the store can do if I don't show ID. Refuse to allow me to sign the charge slip? If the store tries to keep the merchandise, I'm calling the cops. But that's never happened and probably never will. The store manager knows he can't require an ID no matter how much he talks about "store policy."

That's why

RecoveringKinkoid
10-19-2006, 05:17 PM
Why woulld someone not show ID? It seems enough people are against it that it makes me curious why someone woudn'.t.

Banrion
10-19-2006, 06:25 PM
Why woulld someone not show ID? It seems enough people are against it that it makes me curious why someone woudn'.t.

I honestly couldn't tell ya why so many people gets all worked up about showing ID for any reason. Why bother to have an ID if you aren't going to use it when requested of you. I sign my cards, and write SEE ID on them as my signature changes almost daily. I don't see how it can hurt me. It's not like they are writing all the details of the ID down anywhere, most just make sure the names and faces match and I am on my way.

Dips
10-19-2006, 07:31 PM
The whole point behind CC is that Visa/MC have to swallow the loss if someone uses a stolen card.

Actually, not exactly. In most cases, the STORE swallows the loss, not Visa/MC.

If a customer disputes a charge the CC company will withold the funds from the merchant unless the merchant can produce a signed slip which matches the signature on file at the CC company.

If the signatures don't match or the merchant didn't get a signature, the merchant is SOL.

If a card is stolen the customer has no liability at all for any fraudulent charges provided he reports the theft within 24 hours. Any merchants who didn't verify the signature or collect a signature will end up holding the bag.

If the customer doesn't report a card theft until after 24 hours, he is only liable for a maximum of $50 of any fraudulent charges. That $50 will go to the CC company and the merchants will not see a dime of it.

So the breakdown goes:

CC company will not suffer any loss for a stolen card and may get a $50 gain.

Customer may suffer up to a maximum of $50 loss.

Merchant is out the goods and the money unless the thief is caught and pays restitution.

If anybody needs to be extra super-duper careful about credit card transactions, it's the merchant.

chantal
10-19-2006, 07:49 PM
Just a quick note, but does anyone happen to know is it's "legal" to copy down driver's license numbers? There have been policies at stores I've worked at that if the sale was over a certain amount of money, the number had to be copied down. Not a big deal until the ONE time I forgot to do it (I had been there 2 weeks, but the AM acted like I had killed her baby because I forgot to do it) and when the AM noticed she asked the customer for her drivers license but the lady refused saying it was illegal. Just curious.

Auto
10-19-2006, 09:00 PM
Actually, not exactly. In most cases, the STORE swallows the loss, not Visa/MC.


You're sort of right but not really. So let's review.

Yes, if the customer disputes the charge, Visa/MC may force the merchant to eat the loss. But it depends on the reason there's a dispute. Let's ignore cases where the customers have issues about the quality of goods and service and talk only about stolen CC. (If I argue I didn't get what I paid for and therefore won't pay, VISA/MC may just take me at my word and reverse the charge without withholding funds from the merchant. It depends on the dollar amount in dispute. The second or third time I argue that, Visa/MC may just cancel my card. )

Let's also ignore cases where the customer claims he doesn't have to pay because there's no signature. (Legally, it doesn't matter that customer didn't sign. The transaction doesn't need a signature to be valid and binding. Having him sign just makes it that much harder to argue he didn't buy what he in fact did buy. But there are enough morons out there that the system still asks for a signature.)

If the merchant verified that the signatures match, then he's home free. It's Visa/MC's loss. That's the deal Visa/MC make with the merchant. In practice, even if most merchants don't verify signatures (no matter that they're supposed to), Visa/MC will still take them at their word and eat the loss.

Retail's too competitive, the margins too small, for it to be any other way. The moment VISA/MC start withholding payments from a retailer is the moment the retailer stops accepting that card. The fees Visa/MC charge the merchant pays for the losses if the card is fraudulently used.

As for customer's $50 liability. Only in principle. In practice, it's zero liability and that holds no matter when the customer reports the card stolen. My personal experience bears this out. I've had my card used by scammers when I still retained possession of the card (and didn't realized it had been used until weeks later) and I've never paid a penny of my $50 liability. It's routinely waived. In fact, I've never heard of anyone have any liability.

Dips
10-19-2006, 09:49 PM
I see what you're getting at, but still don't see CC companies assuming liability they can pass off to the merchant. I'll clarify what I meant a bit.

I work at a company which accepts Visa/MC and the CC company has never paid us for product bought with a stolen credit card. Ever.

This is because the only recourse a merchant has is to produce a signed slip which matches the signature on file at the CC company. We take all of our orders over the phone. We don't ever have a signature. We end up eating the loss. Luckily it happens so rarely that it isn't a big issue for us.

I don't agree that Visa/MC would be afraid of losing our business. Why should they be? Even though we've been burned a few times, we make a great deal more by accepting MC and Visa than would would without them. We'd actually be out of business without them and they would go on just fine without us.

I agree that the $50 charge is almost never collected. In those rare cases where it is, though, the money goes to the CC company and they keep it.

I don't feel that this is inherently unfair or anything. It's just the way it is. Businesses have the means to protect themselves by verifying signatures and following proper procedure for an unsigned card. If they choose not to, they're the ones who lose out. Not the customer (who, we both agree, is very well protected). Not the CC company.

We're perfectly comforatable with the way this works because we can make sure software purchased with a stolen card can never be activated. It's very little loss to us.

Somebody who is selling plasma TVs is probably going to be much more careful. You can bet the CC company isn't going to eat a $4000 loss if the signature on the merchant's slip isn't an exact match with what they have on file.

LdyJedi
10-19-2006, 10:32 PM
Just a quick note, but does anyone happen to know is it's "legal" to copy down driver's license numbers? There have been policies at stores I've worked at that if the sale was over a certain amount of money, the number had to be copied down. Not a big deal until the ONE time I forgot to do it (I had been there 2 weeks, but the AM acted like I had killed her baby because I forgot to do it) and when the AM noticed she asked the customer for her drivers license but the lady refused saying it was illegal. Just curious.

Was it a cash sale?

repsac
10-20-2006, 02:23 AM
depends on the location and the kind of number.

Here in georgia, until a few years ago, your dl number was the same number as your SSN. After some high profile cases where people's identies were stolen from their DL's, the state issued an edict saying that EVERYONE who renewed their liscense would recieve a random number in place of the SSN on the DL.

In our state, it's illegal to put the SSN on the check, but perfectly legal to put the DL. The reasoning (and we were taught to say this to the customers) when they complained was thus:


Sir or Madam, I have to require the number for security reasons. (Normally we'd stop there. However if they asked for clarification, this followed:)

Well, it works like this. Let's say someone goes out and steals your checks from your mailbox or whatever. Then, they come up here to buy something. Nine times out of ten, when asked to show ID they will. By writing this driver's liscense number down on the check, it means that I have witnessed the ID and verified it. Furthermore, should you the customer report the checks stolen or incurr fraudlent charges, this allows the police department to run the liscense number should the check be seized. Then, they can quickly track down the person who owns that liscense number. Further, by my initialling this, I agree at a future date to provide evidence or justification why I took the check. Meaning, that if the check comes back stolen, I've also had to make note of the liscense, look at the picture, compare it to the holder, and take the time for the number to be written. Also, this gives time for the security cameras to get a good picture. In the end, this small bit of time and ink could end up saving you a great deal of suffering in the future should your checks ever be stolen and written here.


While wordy, by the time I was done nearly EVERY customer was happy to hand over ID. Only one person got very fidgety on me, and it was later found that she had stolen the checks. Guess how they found her?

CrankyPants
10-20-2006, 03:31 AM
In our state, it's illegal to put the SSN on the check, but perfectly legal to put the DL.

Here in Australia we have a Tax File Number which is like the American SSN. This number is secret and it is common knowledge that NOBODY should EVER give this number to anyone unless it's bank or the Tax Office or to the HR dept of any new job you accept. This is so the govt can keep track of you come tax time.

I don't know of anyone here who even remembers their TFN off by heart, much less write it down as ID on cheques and stuff. That would be like asking a serial killer to kill you and handing him the knife!

I know my number and I'm always getting surprised comments from banks etc when I tell them I know it.

Jester
10-21-2006, 03:44 PM
Well, it works like this. Let's say someone goes out and steals your checks from your mailbox or whatever. Then, they come up here to buy something. Nine times out of ten, when asked to show ID they will. By writing this driver's liscense number down on the check, it means that I have witnessed the ID and verified it. Furthermore, should you the customer report the checks stolen or incurr fraudlent charges, this allows the police department to run the liscense number should the check be seized. Then, they can quickly track down the person who owns that liscense number.

Um, stupid question here. If person A stole person B's checks, and tried to use them, why would they hand over their ID to have the ID number written down? It would be foolish for them to do so, as the name on the checks would not match the name on the ID! Then again, knowing how a lot of clerks don't actually look at such common sense things, this shouldn't surprise me. (No, I am not talking about present company.)

As for the whole ID thing, I don't know if I have ever been asked for ID for using my CC, but if I were, I would treat it the same way I treat getting asked for ID for alcohol purchases: If they ask for my ID, I'm getting my drink/purchase, and if they don't ask for my ID, I'm getting my drink/purchase. Either way, I am getting my damn drink/purchase! :cheers:

Becks
10-21-2006, 04:25 PM
Only one person got very fidgety on me, and it was later found that she had stolen the checks. Guess how they found her?

Bloodhounds?

Bella_Vixen
10-23-2006, 03:46 AM
The state of Utah puts the SSN on DLs. I am never moving to Utah.

Reyneth
10-23-2006, 04:07 AM
It's mindboggling that people still believe that if their CC is stolen and used, they are somehow on the hook.

They *are* on the hook - for clearing up the subsequent mess to their credit rating.

DesignFox
10-23-2006, 04:22 AM
I only got asked to provide ID when using my CC once...at Taco Bell of all places...
:headscratch:
Of all the purchases I've ever made (and some rather large and expensive) I get asked for ID when ordering less than $4 in food...uh, yea....like I'd steal a card for that!
I gave the cashier a funny look- but showed my ID without a fuss.