Why is Wireless networking such a difficult concept? [Archive]

Comp_geek

07-16-2006, 01:48 AM

Many times when I'm paged to networking I have to deal with customers who "think" they're ready to go wireless. BOY are THEY wrong. I don't understand why wireless networking is such a difficult concept to grasp.

You need the ROUTER which sends the signal and the CARD which receives it. Think of it like a radio station. Simple right? Noooo not for the people I had today. I finally asked them where their computers will be located (same room) and how far from eachother (about 10 feet) so I told them to just go with wired. I was having enough of it already.

Why is it that people enver seem to understand the most basic explanations?:runaway:

ShockQueen

07-16-2006, 05:05 AM

Yep....I get those too!

SC: My internet doesn't work!
Me: Are you connected directly to the modem or going through a router?
SC: It's connected directly.
Me: Are you using ethernet or USB?
SC: It's wireless to the modem
Me: thinking :lamer:....okay, so you have a wireless router then.
SC: Nope...just to the modem
Me: The large black box?
SC: It's blue with antennas on it. Isn't that the modem?
Me: :headdesk:

HawaiianShirts

07-16-2006, 05:14 AM

It comes down to people not understanding the concept of broadcasting an already existing service. At least, this is the impression I get from my customers.

To many, "Wireless," is an Internet service, much the same as DSL or cable. Only with Wireless, you get the Internet for free (it's magic!) if you have The Card. Most understand when I tell them that Wireless is just computers communicating with each other without the use of cables. I've also had a few gems, though.

"Wait. So, wireless isn't free?"
"So, I have a wireless router and a cable modem. Why can't I pick up my Internet when I'm at work?"
"I have AOL (dial-up). Will wireless make it faster?"
And my personal favorite: "I don't think I want a WIRELESS router. I mean, I don't want anyone to use their computer to see into my HOUSE!"

smellystudent

07-16-2006, 11:14 AM

It doesn't help that AOL are now advertising "wireless broadband for the same price as standard!"

What I suspect this means is that they supply a wireless router for the same price as the standard one, which is a £10-20 one-off cost. Unless, of course, they charge extra each month for customers to have "wireless internet"... which I wouldn't put past them :)

Comp_geek

07-16-2006, 11:43 PM

But I mean we've got diagrams of how it works and what their network will look like. In many cases I just end up telling them whatever they're asking. "yes it will make your kid smart and you'll lose the 300 extra pounds you've got on"

Cutenoob

07-17-2006, 01:38 AM

What I hate about those Wireless Greedy Bastatges is that they expect it to work EVERYWHERE.

This is why I despise Markteing. BLEH.

I work in a Hospital, and the Drs/ Nurses/ Head People arent all that bad. Really. A few of them somehow ahve the idea that they SHOULD have wireless, and they SHOULD be able to walk thru the hospital surfing the net...and then go to an airport and do the same thing.

Well. For HIPPA reasons, we're on a very secured wireless network. You have to have a Cisco Wireless card w/ special software for login reasons...and doing that you are only allowed to do this on campus. If you go to the Airport or Cafe or Timbuktu you will NOT be surfing. Nada.

**insert long whine here**

You want to work from home? Wireless? Set up your own network. Or RTFM and use the nice expensive card for your own damn wireless network.
And even then- ya better be non default, cuz you've got info on your puppy you shouldnt have!!!!

Can you tell I hate this?

Cute

Comp_geek

07-17-2006, 04:02 AM

Oh don't even get me started on the security freaks out there.

C:"But won't someone be able to connect?"
Me:"Yes, but not if you turn on the security, it is built in and most people won't bother with your network if it is secured"
C:"But there's still a chance I will be hacked..."
Me:"There's always a chance of that." *thinking: Do you REALLY think that people find YOU of all people so ineresting they're going to bother hacking you?
C:"So it's better if I go with wired"
Me:"It's harder but yes."
C:"Ok I'll go with that."
Me:"Ok here's your 50 feet of cable and your 20 dollar more expensive router (cos they didn't want to take the cheaper wireless one even when I explained that you can turn that option off)"

Jet

07-17-2006, 04:11 AM

I get the people too that think Wireless is a service, or that they have to sign up for it to be able to use it on their laptops. I generally try and go slow and easy on people because honestly some just don't know. But when you explain as best you can and you get the blank stare it makes you want to slam your head into the nearest wall.

Also drives me nuts when people say they "know someone" or "have friends" who can do all this for them. I had one lady tell me her next door neighbor set her own up so she could do hers. I just wanted to ask her how she knew it had been set up properly? Or when people come in and ask me for a wireless adapter because they heard someone in the neighborhood has a wireless connection and they don't want to pay for their own internet when they could just get it for free grrrr.

Phone Jockey

07-17-2006, 05:42 AM

I get a lot of idiots who don't understand that wireless won't work if you have something BLOCKING the signal. I also had a woman recently ask if she could get wireless in her house & then use it in the woods w/ her laptop. She threw a FIT & requested a supervisor. The sup told her the same thing. You can't go out much further than 150 ft. from the signal. DUH.

Crosshair

07-17-2006, 09:33 AM

I hardwired my families house when I was in high school simply because wireless wasn't an option. At the time, (2000/01) wireless was extremely expensive and nobody used it. In fact, at the time, I thought it would fail because it was(and still is) unsecure and was relativly easy to break into. I worked in the computer department at my school and got to swipe obsolete computer parts that where headed to the trash. Wired it with lengths of spliced cables, some ISA 10 Mbit NIC's, and a 10 Mbit hub. It has since been upgraded of course, however there still is some of the original wires in the house, however they arn't used since they go to rooms that don't have computers anymore.

cpux

07-17-2006, 03:24 PM

Recently I learned (somewhat by accident) that my next door neighbor's wireless router was unsecure. I told him about this, and got the response "Oh, well, that'd be a whole lotta unnecessary work." After explaining why it WAS necessary and how easy it was to set up a WEP or WPA system, I walked him through it.

And now I have another on my list of people who come to me with every little computer problem.

Comp_geek

07-17-2006, 04:08 PM

You're too nice. I woulnd't have done that.

Oh by the way check out http://en.fon.com pretty cool stuff

technical.angel

07-17-2006, 05:07 PM

On the subject of people just not getting a clue... for the students, we require them to have auto updates enabled. To verify this, our verification program will not allow them to get full internet and network access until they enable it.

The screen that tell them this has very detailed instructions on how to enable this. I listened as our work study student explained how to enable it, and ended up reading the screen to her. The student could NOT get it.

That means ***I*** get to go over there and fix it. I get over there. Click Click Click Click. Done.

"Ugh!" She says! "If it was that easy, they could have told me over the phone!"

I said in my best professional voice, "She did, several times, in fact. She even pointed you to this screen, which describes it yet again." She groused. I left. I laughed. I told the work study student, who laughed with me.

Jenni

Mr. Rude

07-19-2006, 12:02 AM

I shudder to think of the issues that'll arise with MS yabbering on about an mp3 player that will be wireless. To compete against the Ipod....

How many lusers will want to install a wireless NIC on their old , POS systems. AFTER buying said mp3 player. Then finding out that their sys can't handle it...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=395159&in_page_id=1770

this is a nightmare waiting to happen :devil: :cry:

Moirae

07-19-2006, 03:16 AM

Shockqueen, the Netgear has a wireless gateway. Customers don't understand the difference between a gateway and a modem. So he may have had that. It sounds like the Netgear.

Battyone

07-19-2006, 01:59 PM

Heh, when I was working over at Radio$hack, I had quite a few idiots with wireless and even networking in general

Some favorite quickies:

SC - This router does not say it is Macintosh compatible.

SC - So if I install the wireless card in my computer, it will get wireless internet?
Me - Do you have a broadband provider?
SC - If I need that, then why am I buying ALL of this STUFF. [Just buying the router]

SC - If I am on the 3rd floor of my house and the router is in the basment, will the signal reach?
Me - (thinking) Gee, I dont know, let me go to my spy archive that I have on you, determine your phone system [2.4ghz phones are popular], then your house's layout and structural materials....etc [said] Yes! (Hey, I worked on comission)

And then there were the miracle workers:

SC - My buddy 3 houses down has a wireless network, if I get a wireless card and a extended range antennea will I be able to use his network? [BTW -- In Ithaca 3 houses down can mean down the block, or over 50 acres away...]

By 3 months into working there, the only people I sold wireless routers to were the IT/IS staff of Ithaca College and Cornell University...

XM10ADefiant

08-04-2006, 04:46 AM

I love how people come up to me all excited about wireless and wanting to get hooked up and I ask the all important question....................How do you connect to the internet?

Answer: ummm AOL.....................................:doh:

followed by 10 min of explaining why they cant have wireless on dial up and that their friend DID NOT get a wireless network on his AOL account despite what he told you.

trunks2k

08-04-2006, 01:01 PM

followed by 10 min of explaining why they cant have wireless on dial up and that their friend DID NOT get a wireless network on his AOL account despite what he told you.

Well, you probably should be able set up a wireless connection off of dialup if you really wanted to. It would just run slow as hell, and would be rather pointless. Just buy a dial-up router (most stores don't sell them, but you can get one here (http://www.multitech.com/PRODUCTS/Families/RouteFinder_102/)) then hook that router to a wireless one. In fact after another google search, I found a wireless dialup router here (http://www.wiflyer.com/StoreFront.bok).

Also, AOL does/did work with broadband, but I think you had to get the actual internet service through a different party. But with how popular AOL was in the 90s a lot of people that still use AOL (even if they have broadband) think that's how they connect to the internet.

gbm85

08-04-2006, 03:44 PM

I thought it would fail because it was(and still is) unsecure and was relativly easy to break into.

WEP is relatively easy to break. If you know what you're doing, you can crack a WEP key in a matter of hours. However, WPA and the subsequent WPA2 are not as easy. Yes, WPA is subject to offline attack, but if you use the full 63 characters and use a random password that consists of all available characters, then cracking it would take too long to make it worth doing.

DGoddessChardonnay

08-04-2006, 08:28 PM

HawaiianShirts

08-05-2006, 11:58 PM

SC - This router does not say it is Macintosh compatible.

Had that argument with a woman just the other day. She INSISTED that every wireless router was Mac compatible and that I didn't know what I was talking about. I tried to be friendly about it and used stuff like, "Well, only these two are listed as Mac compatible, but if you can get the others to work, all the more power to you. No one I know can do it."

Despite my insistence that I had heard of no one configuring a non-Mac compatible router to work with a Mac (I believed it was possible but extremely difficult), she took one. She brought it back the next day and took another. She brought that back two days later and took a third. She brought the third back another week later, saying that she got it to work once but only for a few minutes.

She complained that I must sell crap for routers because none of them worked with her Mac. That fourth time, though, I showed her the two that were listed as Mac compatible. She examined one, pleasantly said "Oh, yes, that'll work," and took it. Haven't seen her since.

RichS

08-06-2006, 01:57 AM

Well, you probably should be able set up a wireless connection off of dialup if you really wanted to.

Yes, you can, because that's how I have mine set up. No cable or DSL available where I'm at. :cry: They're saying wireless available this or next month, I hope...

External serial port modem, to SMC Barricade Internet Sharing wired router, to D-Link wireless G router with WPA encryption enabled.

Slow, yes, but at least I can keep my kids' machine and the guide on my Media Center PC updated.

LostMyMind

08-06-2006, 02:01 PM

Despite my insistence that I had heard of no one configuring a non-Mac compatible router to work with a Mac (I believed it was possible but extremely difficult), she took one.

What kind of routers you got selling over there? Routers are suppose to not care what the "device" is. Every router I've dealt with (and I've dealt with many different brands), all had "html" accessed configuration. If you're talking about gateway or switches then I can understand.

DGoddessChardonnay

08-06-2006, 08:38 PM

Yes, you can, because that's how I have mine set up. No cable or DSL available where I'm at. :cry: They're saying wireless available this or next month, I hope...

External serial port modem, to SMC Barricade Internet Sharing wired router, to D-Link wireless G router with WPA encryption enabled.

Slow, yes, but at least I can keep my kids' machine and the guide on my Media Center PC updated.

Just out of curiosity, how would I be able to set that up w/my laptop? I have built-in wireless and a dial up ISP account (b/f lives in the country and there's no DSL or cable either.)

LostMyMind

08-07-2006, 03:44 AM

If you got dial up ISP, you just need to find a router that will access the modem to do a ISP dial-up. Then connect a wireless modem to that router (this second step is usually because dial-up modem routers generally aren't mixed with wireless ones).

Since RichS actually said the router he used for the dial up connection "SMC Barricade Internet Sharing". Once you have that set up and connecting correctly to the internet. Then you connect a cable from that router to the "in" plug of the wireless router. Then set up the wireless router as normal.

trunks2k

08-07-2006, 03:38 PM

She complained that I must sell crap for routers because none of them worked with her Mac. That fourth time, though, I showed her the two that were listed as Mac compatible. She examined one, pleasantly said "Oh, yes, that'll work," and took it. Haven't seen her since.

I'm not a mac user and thus haven't had to deal with that, but isn't networking really standardized? A wirelss router that gives off a standard 802.11g/b/a signal should work with any computer that has a card to recieve that signal. Considering how 802.11g/b/a is pretty much the standard, what in the world do macs use?

I'm a Computer Science graduate (shows how much I use macs) and I'm having a tough time understanding how your average router is not Mac compatible. The router should give off the standard signal, and Macs should accept the standard signals. I mean every router I have used, in order to change the settings on it, you just go to it's IP adress of the router, so any computer that understands the basic network protocols (read:TCP/IP) and HTML/Javascript, can change the settings for the router. So yeah, a non-mac compatible router is a bit of an odd concept to me.

MacPrince

08-07-2006, 03:52 PM

I have to join the group of folks scratching their heads about this "Mac compatible router" business. Now, I use an Apple wireless router*, but were that to die tomorrow I could easily walk into any big box retailer and pick up a Linksys or a D-Link or what have you and replace it without a hitch. Even if the device doesn't have a setup application on the CD for my Mac, I can plug it in and configure it over the web interface, no problem.

*(Why'd I pick Apple's AirPort Extreme Base Station (http://www.apple.com/airportextreme/) over the cheaper options? Ironically, it's because it was originally purchased to share a dial-up modem connection. It comes with a built-in 56k modem.)

RichS

08-07-2006, 06:01 PM

Just out of curiosity, how would I be able to set that up w/my laptop? I have built-in wireless and a dial up ISP account (b/f lives in the country and there's no DSL or cable either.)

Here's how I did it:

I have an external 56K serial modem which I hooked up to a internet sharing wired router, in this case the SMC Barricade (my boss recommended it), which I bought off of eBay. I have that hooked via ethernet cable to my wireless router. I turned off DHCP on the wireless so the wired is the main router. When any of my wireless machines asks for internet access, it goes through the wireless router to the SMC, which automatically dials the modem and logs on to my ISP. After 5 minutes of inactivity, the modem automatically hangs up. If I know I won't be online for awhile, I switch my modem off.

Wish I would've known about devices like the WiFlyer on a link a few posts down - that looks like it has all of what I did in one box.

Mr. Rude

08-07-2006, 06:03 PM

Off topic,
Anyone else other than me keep a dialup modem handy? In case of service outages, I can still fire up the old "morse code" version ;)

trunks2k

08-07-2006, 08:05 PM

Off topic,
Anyone else other than me keep a dialup modem handy? In case of service outages, I can still fire up the old "morse code" version ;)

I have one built into my motherboard. But I don't have landline service at my place.

Rapscallion

08-07-2006, 08:50 PM

Off topic,
Anyone else other than me keep a dialup modem handy? In case of service outages, I can still fire up the old "morse code" version ;)

I had to get one a few weeks ago when the junction outside the house fell over. I was praying I didn't need to update the site...

Rapscallion

Jayn_Newell

08-07-2006, 08:58 PM

Off topic,
Anyone else other than me keep a dialup modem handy? In case of service outages, I can still fire up the old "morse code" version ;)

I'm not sure if my computer came standard with one or not--bought a pre-built rig, but as my parents can't get cable or DSL yet it's certainly good I have one for when I'm home (like this summer). That said, I do miss being able to bring my laptop to work with me, although for everything else my new desktop is certainly a lot better.

A small bit of irony--I had a laptop for the first two years of university, and there was no wireless access anywhere on campus during those two years (Parts of Dal had it, but I never hung out there). My third year I got a desktop. Guess when the school installed wireless access in the day-students lounge?

And a customer story, sort of--Had a guy come in today wondering if Dad had installed his charting software yet. Or something like that--I quickly realised he probably didn't know exactly what he was talking about, as he said my father was 'installing the internet', which as far as I knew was impossible on a fishing boat. I related the story to Dad later, and he said it was possible to get internet access by using a satellite phone connection. Anyone who would set up internet using a sat phone has waaaay too much money, those things are not cheap to use.

Crosshair

08-07-2006, 11:09 PM

I have my first modem somewhere in my computer stuff. It's a 14.4 ISA modem. Dead reliable.

gbm85

08-09-2006, 12:49 AM

Off topic,
Anyone else other than me keep a dialup modem handy? In case of service outages, I can still fire up the old "morse code" version ;)

I use my PDA phone as a modem when on the road, or as a backup when at home. With sustained EV-DO download rates of 120kbps, it's not such a bad option :p

HawaiianShirts

08-10-2006, 02:51 PM

Even if the device doesn't have a setup application on the CD for my Mac, I can plug it in and configure it over the web interface, no problem.

I think that is exactly the case. Around here, there are not many Mac users. The few Mac users we do have either know exactly what they're doing and have little to no interaction with people like me, or they have no clue what they're doing. In fact, most of the people I talk to who have or want a Mac have just seen them at the local university's bookstore or have a friend who told them to buy one.

I told the woman I had not seen a Mac set up with those routers. Doesn't mean it couldn't be done. Just meant I hadn't seen it done and therefore didn't know for certain how it was done. (One of the reasons I love this site is that I often get clarification on stuff I don't get.) I'm fairly sure the reference to whether router is compatible or not on the product's package has to do with the installation and configuration software that comes with it. The people who rely on that kind of software to do everything would not be able to get the set up done without help. That's probably what happened with that woman and with the other customers who tell me, "This router won't work with my Mac."

Networking is one area of computers I don't know as much about as I would like. And it's been years since I've touched a Mac. So, admittedly, I wasn't the best person for this cusomter to talk to at the time, but the one person who would have been a better option was off for a month on military duty, and this woman decided I was the only person she wanted to talk to.

LostMyMind

08-10-2006, 02:55 PM

As long as we're talking router, you can access the configuation once you find out what address and user/password.

Gateways are different, I was throughly piss when I found out the gateway I bought could only be configured via software.

Phone Jockey

08-12-2006, 05:53 PM

"So, I have a wireless router and a cable modem. Why can't I pick up my Internet when I'm at work?"

That reminds me of the cuckoo who called & wanted to be able to walk out of her house & into the woods nearby to use the internet. :runaway: She even swore at one of our team leads after having the call passed to her. I mean, wtf?? You get MAYBE 150 feet with our service...you can't go running into the woods & expect wireless service!!

It also made me wonder why she wanted to go into the woods in the first place to get online. :confused:

PhotoChick

08-15-2006, 12:59 AM

Sorry, I'm a bit late to the party, but as a mac user and a person capable of reading between the sc lines, I'm about 97% sure this is what happened:

All routers are mac and windows compatible; like everyone else said the signal the router sends to the computers is the same and if you know what you're doing its easy to configure using the web interface.

BUT this woman is not someone who knows how to do that, or even that its possible. She goes home, opens the package, reads the directions, inserts the software cd and nothing happens. She assumes windows only software = not mac compatible. This happens several times until she found a router packaged with mac software.

HawaiianShirts

08-16-2006, 02:08 PM

Customer Beating Robot

09-21-2006, 02:37 AM

My owner had the big idea of putting up a Wi-Max wireless system. Towers all around town would transmit to little wireless modems inside the customers home. (Of course he wanted to price it the same as DSL or cable which was stupid)

Anyway, he advertised it as wireless internet. Now, try explaining to a customer that our "wireless" internet did not mean that they could get internet on their laptop, even if they had a wireless card. And yes, we had many discussions about the name, but he always stuck with "wireless internet" for the term. Not to mention that there are several hot-spots around town created by local business. They provided wireless to get people to stay around and shop. So people start wondering why we can't do wireless when (name of random location) does it.

Thank God I talked him into abandoning that.

ebonyknight

09-22-2006, 04:24 PM

Yeah, PhotoChick, I think that's exactly it.

On a related note, has anyone else had the same problems with BlueTooth? I get customers all the time who think they need a BlueTooth adapter to get wireless internet (which is true if they're using a cell phone, but I know of no other way to do that, and it's definitely not to let them use the local university's Wi-Fi connection). Or they ask me if BlueTooth Wireless internet is better than normal wireless. Others get BlueTooth adapters for their laptops and wonder why it won't let them connect to their 6-year-old Brick cell phone.

Please tell me I'm not alone in this one.

Bluetooth technology is just a way to get individual devices to talk to each other. For example, there are cars that have bluetooth in them so that you can use your cell phone's addressbook to dial a number (assuming you have Onstar or another such service). The most common use is for connecting a headset to the phone or your phone to the computer. The trick is (just as it is with wired or wireless connections, BOTH ends must use the same hardware specification (analogous to protocols) to communicate with each other. So if your computer has bluetooth and your cellphone doesn't support it, no communication unless you are going to do it through USB (assuming the phone is USB compatible). :)

Oh, another thing. I think a mod mentioned that it can take a few hours to break WEP. Welcome to the latter half of this decade. You can break WEP within MINUTES with the right software. There are even video demonstrations showing you how to do it on the internet, one in realtime breaking WEP. A lot of wireless users get thier access installed and don't secure it. The phone companies used to secure it but then they would be liable if someone broke in to access the user's network. So they stopped. A WHOLE lotta unsecured networks in my neighborhood. What's even sadder are those that bother to give them niffty SSID (network names) and don't bother to secure them.

The tragedy is that most of these users taking advantage of the "new fangled technology", don't know that thier ignorance can cost them everything. Ex. If a hacker decides to use your unsecured wireless to hack the FBI, the FBI is going to come after THEM, not the hacker, since the hack came from thier new fangled wireless network. Securing your wireless network literally takes minutes and will deter most hackers. WHy? Because, a robber usually goes after the easiest mark and what mark is easier than a fool who goes off to work and leaves the front door, literally open? I myself use shared key WPA (not as good) as using Radius to randomize the keys or WPA2, but the same applies. Someone who can't find an unsecured wireless network, will then spend the few minutes needed to break WEP and leave my network alone, because it's more difficult.

Anyway...SECURE your wireless networks!!!

MacPrince

09-23-2006, 02:08 AM

Bluetooth technology is just a way to get individual devices to talk to each other. For example, there are cars that have bluetooth in them so that you can use your cell phone's addressbook to dial a number (assuming you have Onstar or another such service).

Actually, no such service is required for a Bluetooth hands-free system, at least nothing but your cell phone plan. The Bluetooth system in the car connects only to your phone over Bluetooth and to the car's audio system to funnel the conversation over the car's speakers. A microphone in the cabin (usually on the overhead console) picks up your voice.

LostMyMind

09-23-2006, 04:44 PM

Oh, another thing. I think a mod mentioned that it can take a few hours to break WEP. Welcome to the latter half of this decade. You can break WEP within MINUTES with the right software. There are even video demonstrations showing you how to do it on the internet, one in realtime breaking WEP. A lot of wireless users get thier access installed and don't secure it.
It can still take a few hours to break WEP depending on the router setup/code. Yes, it's easier with some.

WEP is just an simple encryption. Depending on any kind of encryption will set you up for a security break. Sadly, no encryption is 100% hack proof. Even the newest encryption can be broken in minutes. Which is why I don't use encryption to secure my network :p

Yes, FBI will come after you, if the hack "appears" to come from your router. But they still have to prove that your computers did the hacking, not that it came from your IP. Any good "hacker" can reroute their IP tracking or even change their IP completely. That why there are soooo many public proxies out there that are 100% anonymous and no logs.

**side note** I don't "hack" anymore ;) My experience are from the old days when hackers were crackers and not what they are today.