This is not 1950s Virginia...

[Tama]

...and you will see why I said that in a few moments.

An older white lady has a large food order, and is ahead of a black couple (important). I check her out, and as things might go, the black couple's buggy accidentally hits the old lady as she turns to swipe her card.

OL: OW! ....I'm okay. =)

But what does she do?

Waves her hand.

Not 'goodbye, sometime soon old friend!' waving...dismissive waving. Like you'd wave off a pesky sibling or dog.:eek:

Seriously, I wanted to scream.

This is not 1950s southern America. It is not acceptable to 'wave off' a black couple. :rant: It's not acceptable to wave off anyone, really, but being in the south, well...fellow southerners would understand....

When she left, I said to the couple, "If this had been 40-50 years ago...that could have gotten ugly."

The black woman says, "It was about to get ugly."

I replied, "Well I would have kicked back, got some popcorn, and not said a word to anyone."

I'm glad they felt comfortable enough to joke about it, to be honest, and I know they did because they laughed when I said that.

[Itsjustpizza]

OK I am from the south and I dont get this. Doesnt sound like the couple even apologized for hitting her and I dont understand why the ol was obliged to do anything but wait for an apology for being hit.If the couple had apologized and was waved off that might be rude, but the old lady was the one who was hit regardless of the races involved. If i have missed something please let me know.

[Bright_Star]

Well, there are those in the south that are still pissed off the Confederacy lost the Civil War. I wish I was kidding but I'm not. Thus the crap that you still run into when in the south.

[trunks2k]

I'm not getting the significance of the waving them off in terms of racism either. Possibly rude, yes, depending on exactly what she did. But I don't see how it can be attributed to racism instead of just being plain ol' rude.

[Sapphire Silk]

Well, there are those in the south that are still pissed off the Confederacy lost the Civil War. I wish I was kidding but I'm not. Thus the crap that you still run into when in the south.

You kidding? There's folks down here who still don't know the War is over . . . and the South lost. :rolleyes:

As for the hand wave . . .

Well, it's kinda hard to describe. When you wave hello/goodbye, the palm is facing the person you are waving at.

When you are "waving someone off," the wrist is usually limp, the back of the hand faces the person, and the fingers extend moving "away" from the person waving. It is a very aristocratic and imperious form of gesture . . . and very rude.

Although, if the black couple did not apologize, they should have.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

The lady was probably dismissing the offense, not the couple. That she immediately said "I'm okay" along with the hand wave suggests to me that it was more of a "it's nothing, don't worry about it" sort of gesture.

Although the couple should have apologized regardless.

[kzc]

I don't understand why the races matter at all. It's worse to "wave off" someone of race X than race Y? Bizarre.

And I kind of think if someone has just rammed me with a cart or other object that I'd be fairly well justified in waving them back, no matter how imperiously. Especially if no apology had been forthcoming.

EDIT: ...but RK's gracious interpretation seems possible as well.

[Mmmm_Beer]

Sounds like someone who is looking for racism in everything more than actual racism to me. Was the hand wave rude? Possibly, but people are rude nowadays. It happens.

Just because someone of one race does something rude to someone of another race, does not mean they are racist. When will the race card hit it's limit?

[blas]

It's rude in general, races left out of it.

Why wave? Why not just say "Oh it's ok"

I get the feeling if anyone ever gave me the "go away you pest!" wave over something like that, my buggy would go right up their ass.

[Gawdzillers]

I'm Southern and I don't get it.

[Merriweather]

I'm Southern and I don't get it.

Same here. And I actually have memories of the south that go far enough back to recall wanting to sit back on the wide seat across the back of the bus and having my mother tell me embarrassedly to hush, we don't sit there.

I mean, I get the type of wave she means - a dismissive wave, the image that springs to mind would be a movie, two people talking intently, a waiter or servant comes in to clear a table and they give the wave and slight shake of the head, as in "go away, do that later, not right now, we're busy". A person might even use it as a silent way to tell a child or spouse to come back and do something later if you're on a business call at home.

But in that context? Never seen it done, so I really have no idea what the woman meant by it - possibly, "I'm ok, don't worry about it?" Or maybe she did mean something worse, but just never seen it used as a racist thing. Maybe in movies, as I "I'm more important than you, you work for me/ or are here to serve me (as a waiter)" but not exactly racist. :confused:.

[SailorMan]

OK I am from the south and I dont get this. Doesnt sound like the couple even apologized for hitting her and I dont understand why the ol was obliged to do anything but wait for an apology for being hit.If the couple had apologized and was waved off that might be rude, but the old lady was the one who was hit regardless of the races involved. If i have missed something please let me know.

I imagine there was a lot expressed in the body language of the "lady," that wasn't imparted in the description of what she did. And yes, someone from the South would know what was meant by the attitude she expressed, if that person actually saw the look on her face, etc. I'm pretty confident that Tama, as the person who witnessed what happened, probably interpreted it correctly; just probably didn't write the description of what happened well enough to explain it to someone who's never come across the attitudes prevalant in people of the lady's generation, in the South.

Maybe, in a couple of generations, the kind of worldview she represents will fade away.

[wildman]

I believe this situation was totally blown out of proportion.

[SailorMan]

I believe this situation was totally blown out of proportion.

As much as any show of racism, however small, might be????

[RetailWorkhorse]

For those that don't know, the "dismissive wave" that Tama described is the "shoo" motion that some people use.

As for the lady, well, that attitude is alive, well, and RAMPANT in southern GA. It's still passed on even though nothing bad is intended, it's just them used to it. It's certainly been used on ME enough (and no, it's NOT just because I'm a younger generation).

...I did have a point but I forgot what it was....

ETA: I remembered my point!

She likely didn't wave off the black couple, she waved off the bump. As in "it's okay I'm fine, no worries".

Older Woman could have raised a scene with the Younger Gen but she didn't.

Yes, we're southern born and breed, that doesn't make all of our relatives and my Elders racists.

[SailorMan]

For those that don't know, the "dismissive wave" that Tama described is the "shoo" motion that some people use.

Not to belabor the point, Tama was there, and described it as clearly being racist: I'm sure the 'hand motion' was just one component of the overall body-language that gave her actions their meaning. And I myself have seen something like what was described, and unless the description of what transpired by the subject (the lady) was accompanied by an explanation worthy of a segment of "Lie to Me," the average person isn't capable of describing every little nuance of the person's demeanor or behavior clearly enough to impart the emotion or behavior involved.

So, Tama took a shortcut in summing-up the lady's attitude, and it clearly fell within the parameters of the label 'racism.'

Yes, we're southern born and breed, that doesn't make all of our relatives and my Elders racists.

Yes, you're right. That doesn't make everyone in the South a racist. And that's not was implied in the original post. It merely detailed a particular sighting of one racist individual.

[flutes_and_fabric]

Ok, so there are some major points missing from this post, which until added place me on the side of the older woman. If someone hit me with a cart and didn't apologize, I'm going to motion regardless of race. In fact, at the very busy crazy store I go to, it's guaranteed you will be hit at least twice during your shopping experience. When that happens I raise my hands, palms inwards, and kind of make a flicking motion away from me as to say "WTF, OPEN YOUR EYES YOU SELF CENTERED BEOTCH, THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD BESIDES YOU!" The motion is accompanied by an eye roll so there is no confusion. On the odd chance that someone apologizes, I smile warmly and tell them "No problem!" It's especially annoying when you're standing in line and someone hits you. Get the eff outta my bubble. I feel like they're trying to rush me out. And how did she say "I'm ok"? Was it in a sarcastic way, or a genuine 'i'm ok' kinda feel. If it was the ladder, then that was definitely a "don't worry about it" wave. Something I've noticed is that people of certain backgrounds, especially European, tend to use sometimes spastic motions to go along with their speech. I know I do it. Once the missing descriptions are added in I'll be able to make a better informed decision. My cousin lives in the south, I visit her often, I'm jewish and my partner is black, and we will be affectionate in public so I've faced my share of discrimination numerous times (and all over, not just in the south), so I do understand how tense it must have felt if the woman truly was being racist. People should never be discriminated against based on anything. I don't care if it's the color of your skin or the sex of the person you love, it's just wrong.

[SailorMan]

As far as I can tell from the original post (and until Tama says something else) it didn't say that the black couple didn't apologize. Why is everyone jumping to that conclusion?

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Howdy, folks.

Just a friendly reminder that this thread is starting to read a mite unfriendly.

If ya'll need a place to debate how racist or not racist we southerners are, I invite and encourage you to take it over to fratching.

[flutes_and_fabric]

As far as I can tell from the original post (and until Tama says something else) it didn't say that the black couple didn't apologize. Why is everyone jumping to that conclusion?

I know it's unfortunate that that's the conclusion we're all jumping to, but since the old woman's reaction was recorded and the couple's was not (at least during the event), it just seems logical to me that there was no action on their part, but I know I could very well be wrong. Once we have all the facts it'll be much easier to see where the poster is coming from :)

[Seriously?]

I have to say, I live in the south, and I didn't grasp the significance either. If I read the post correctly, the first thing the lady said was basically, "I'm okay". I don't really see anything wrong with waving at the couple whose buggy hit her, regardless of race, especially since the post mentions nothing about the couple apologizing or even asking if she was okay. Did it occur to anyone that she might have simply been waving the incident aside, as in, "no big deal"? Is there more that was said or done to make you want to scream?

[SailorMan]

I have to say, I live in the south, and I didn't grasp the significance either.

My whole family is from the South, too. And the original post wasn't about all Southerners, but about the actions of a specific person. No generalizations were made about all Southerners. Also, have you actually read any of the things posted about the significance of body language, etc., in judging a persons intentions when expressing something?

If I read the post correctly, the first thing the lady said was basically, "I'm okay". I don't really see anything wrong with waving at the couple whose buggy hit her, regardless of race, especially since the post mentions nothing about the couple apologizing or even asking if she was okay. Did it occur to anyone that she might have simply been waving the incident aside, as in, "no big deal"? Is there more that was said or done to make you want to scream?

All I can do, is point back to what I wrote, a few posts ago. Did anything I wrote about it being Tama's on-the-scene impression trumping what other people here are guessing about, sight unseen, in defense of the lady's actions?

[flutes_and_fabric]

My whole family is from the South, too. And the original post wasn't about all Southerners, but about the actions of a specific person. No generalizations were made about all Southerners. Also, have you actually read any of the things posted about the significance of body language, etc., in judging a persons intentions when expressing something?


Just remember, not all body language is bad. I looked back at the original post and the smiley face next to "I'm ok" shows that the woman said it in a nice way, so can't you admit that her body language coupled with her tone of voice might have meant that she was waving the action off and not the people. Unfortunately you weren't there to see the woman's actions either, so until the op returns it's hard to tell with the material provided to us. As for the southerners part, the post you were replying to simply stated that they didn't get the significance of pointing out that importance, so more than likely they haven't come across this type of person before, which means they are very lucky.

[Peppergirl]

Ok - second warning, since clearly RK's message has gone ignored.

If you want to debate what the OP meant or didn't mean, take it to fratching. In the meantime, I think it's wise to cease speculating about whether or not the couple apologized. If/when the OP comes back, it can hopefully be clarified.

Until then, please (again) be polite to one another and stop with the 'what if' scenarios.

Thanks.

PG

[Ironclad Alibi]

If Tama does decide to reply with additonal info, I'm curious about where this incident took place. The title says "not 1950s Virginia" and the body of the text says "not 1950s southern America."

Did it happen in present day Virginia, southern America, or somewhere else?

[Irving Patrick Freleigh]

If the motion described is the one I'm thinking of, it's bringing down the hand quickly, like a swat or something.

I'm with RK. I think the hand motion was geared toward the action, not the black people who caused it. Sort of a "Don't worry, no harm done" kind of thing.

Obviously the OP read it differently. That is all I will say about that.

[Whiskey]

If/when the OP comes back, it can hopefully be clarified.


If I was the OP i wouldnt come back to this trainwreck :roll:

I am guilty of "the handwave"

mostly because I'm italian and EVERYTHING has a hand gesture

*hand gesture*

[dalesys]

If I was the OP i wouldnt come back to this trainwreck :roll:

I am guilty of "the handwave"

mostly because I'm italian and EVERYTHING has a hand gesture

*hand gesture*(NSFW)
That's a phrase in most languages.:D

[Whiskey]

That's a phrase in most languages.:D

what can i say, i'm verbose even in sign langage