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Crescent Cat
07-21-2013, 06:20 AM
I play Pathfinder with a group of friends on Saturday nights with my husband as the DM. Everything was fine. We were playing a homegrown Kings-Maker campaign with a wild west setting. I played a gunslinger with a couple levels of cleric mixed in for some healing/versatility. Good times were had by all.

Then I got sick and missed a session. No big deal. It happens from time to time. One week after that my husband updated me on what the party did while I was sick. A forest nymph had asked them to take care of an alchemist's lab that was near her forest because it was polluting the air. The party went to the lab to talk with him and he agreed to move on the condition that they provide a place for him to set up his laboratory. Perfectly reasonable, right?

So of course, in the middle of the night they decide to drop a fireball into his lab and blow it up with him still inside. His fingers were the only things they found of him. To their credit, they hadn't actually killed him because he managed to escape somehow.

As a player, I was pretty pissed that they did that. As a Lawful Neutral cleric of Abadar, I was really pissed that they did that. That was enough for my character to leave the party. I really didn't want to because I really liked my character but I decided that I needed to play him in-character. So I rolled up a new character and spoke with my husband about what we were going to do. I was so upset that they did that to a cooperative NPC that I decided my character would turn them into the local authorities. My husband agreed that they needed to face consequences for their actions and decided that they would be required to pay a fine of 42K gold.

When we started the session that night and I turned them in and left the party, they weren't too happy. But you know what? Tough crap. This is what happens when you rashly destroying the homes of NPCs that haven't done anything wrong. So I played my new character but I wasn't really happy with it. I really wanted to play my old character.

After paying the restitution and going south, they discovered a portal that would only open for a cleric of Abadar. Boy, don't you guys wish you hadn't pissed off the one in your party. :rolleyes:

Since there was no other way they could open it, they decided to go back to town and make amends with my old character. I was happy because I saw this as an opportunity to play him again. As the party had paid for their crimes my character was willing to put the past behind them and travel with them again. Things should have gotten better from that point on.

However, every time we have a session I have to hear about how I turned "traitor" to the party simply because I reported a crime they committed. Even after I gave one of my party members 6k so he could get an enchantment on his greataxe he has to give me crap about it. So tonight I decided I had had enough. After another snide comment about what had happened I said I was done playing for the night, packed my stuff up and left the room. After the session I talked to my husband and I decided I wasn't going to play in that campaign anymore. He feels badly about it and told me that they didn't mean to be hostile, but I'm just tired of hearing about it.

I'll admit that I probably overreacted to the original situation but I don't want to play with people that fuck up NPCs for no good reason. So I'm irritated that they did something like that in the first place and aren't willing to let it go. I feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in that party now. So quitting is the best option, but I'm still pretty pissed about it. Anyone else here play Pathfinder? What do you think about this whole thing?

Kheldarson
07-21-2013, 07:21 AM
Play Pathfinder, but haven't had a regular group in a long while.

That said, your group kinda sucks. What alignments are they?

KhirasHY
07-21-2013, 10:27 AM
I've been playing a Paladin in a campaign we're just referring to as "The Greater Good", and my party found out pretty quickly that he wouldn't put up with their shit ;) That said, he's a naive little SOB, and tends to run headlong into the forces of evil, simply assuming they're with him.

We have two thief/spy types in the party. They make sure to suggest I go pray before they start stealing things from every town we go to, but I'm still betting I get them fragged before my Paladin goes down ;) I've been getting lucky with 20's on his attack rolls...

As to the situation...I dunno. I've never left a party with a character before, but we tend to make characters according to certain rules (no evil, all good, etc) depending on the type of campaign we're doing. The only time we've gone into wanton destruction was an all-evil party (we depopulated a large number of towns), and one particularly evil temple with the Paladin...but those fuckers had it coming ;)

EricKei
07-21-2013, 12:24 PM
I have had the misfortune of running in one too many "evil PC's whose alignment isn't evil" groups (any game, not PF) ~_~ You know the type...One player in particular was really bad, and it didn't help that her boyfriend was the GM..."What, oh my, yes, we ALL believe that you just happened to roll up your toon with 18's on all of your stats (using 3d6), we're not suspicious of that at all!" (hang on a sec, I rolled my eyes so hard that they ended up under the couch...).

Said player also like to make absolutely sure that her toon was powerful enough to snuff out anyone else's toons at a moment's notice, even when playing characters who should never even *consider* such things as an option under normal circumstances...She got pissed when I ended up with a combat-focused, yet utterly batshit insane (as in, "Major Disadvantage: Talks to swords" (and takes "their" advice over the advice of living characters)), fully-within-the-rules, melee powerhouse/samurai character whom she had no chance of taking out (in Big Eyes Small Mouth, an anime-inspired game), and wouldn't care if she could. Naturally, when she figured that out, she suddenly became a rules lawyer and tried to impose strict adherence to the Bushido Code, and arranged for the GM to suddenly get my character into Honor-related catch-22 situations. That particular campaign broke down quickly after that.

dendawg
07-21-2013, 01:10 PM
If i was GM of that group, I'd summon something that would kill instantly the next character that complained, then ask if anybody else had any more complaints. :devil:

Crescent Cat
07-21-2013, 01:23 PM
Play Pathfinder, but haven't had a regular group in a long while.

That said, your group kinda sucks. What alignments are they?

Most of them are Neutral Good and one is Lawful Neutral. One of the party members is a Druid who feels absolutely no remorse for what they did because the alchemist "had it coming". I guess I can kinda understand that mentality from a Druid, but it's not like the guy was a villain from Captain Planet. He wasn't polluting the air on purpose and he was willing to move.

So in this case it's not as much "evil PCs whose alignment isn't evil" as much as it's a "we'll do whatever the hell we feel like and don't have to face any consequences" group. That being said, even before I heard about what they did my husband wasn't too happy about what they did. He really emphasizes that there will be consequences for rash behavior. They probably would've been fined even if I hadn't intervened. I just made it easier for him to dole out justice. :p

On another note, even though my hubby is the GM I don't get any special treatment. I have to suffer crit fumbles and hits just like everyone else. :D

MaggieTheCat
07-21-2013, 01:48 PM
The Neutral Good ones would be True Neutral edging toward Evil after that act in my group, depending on what other shenanigans they've been getting up to.

I'm sorry the group ended up not working out for you. Do you happen to have a local Pathfinder Society group you could play with? We got all of our players for our homegame from the local PFS chapter.

paintballworker
07-21-2013, 03:38 PM
My Battletech group learned very very quickly, there are consequences to every action.

One of the players, decided is was a good idea, to massacre a bunch of protesting civilians, who had no weapons of any kind. The local militia spent the next 6 months hunting the PCs down, their Merc rating sunk faster then a rock, and they were being charged with 'violations of the Ares Conventions' and were counted as War Criminals.

We had two sessions just dealing with the fallout of a single dice roll, shortly afterwards the group decided to a)kick that player out(there were other reasons) and b)restart the campaign at a early point in time.

Pimento
07-21-2013, 04:28 PM
Isn't the point of these games to choose freely? Sounds like everyone is taking it way too seriously. If I was in a group of characters in the same situation my character might have trust issues with a turn coat too. Sounds like everyone is kinda playing their role.

Aethian
07-21-2013, 04:49 PM
Isn't the point of these games to choose freely? Sounds like everyone is taking it way too seriously. If I was in a group of characters in the same situation my character might have trust issues with a turn coat too. Sounds like everyone is kinda playing their role.

Yes you can choose freely but if your going against your alignment and then doing something you really know is going to piss someone off then you need to expect fallout from that. When the grudge continues and it makes it in-fun for the player of the character then the other plays have gone too far.

Like one if the groups I was in got to go into a huge house. I was two days away game time and had the keys and know how of the house. Our GM set up a huge storm to befall the others where they made a choice break into the house or bear the weather. They chose to break in after warnings not to (from way earlier) and were pummeled with spells, magical beasts, and basically after the fight the once huge house was rubble.

I'm still muffed at them when my character got there and everything stopped because 1. The magic knew me and knew to stop and 2. The beasts came to me as their owner.

If they had chosen to not break in the GM was going to give me a fairy pass and they would have experienced the night well fed and in warm beds.

fma_fanatic
07-21-2013, 05:54 PM
Actually, you have every right to be upset, especially with the sniping. Role playing, no matter what system, is supposed to be a collaborative effort. It is not supposed to be a way to make another player feel bad. Perhaps your husband should have a discussion with the players about this and remind them that they're adults and no longer in elementary school.

As one player who has dealt with it a few times, I feel for you.

Kheldarson
07-21-2013, 10:30 PM
Most of them are Neutral Good and one is Lawful Neutral.
So in this case it's not as much "evil PCs whose alignment isn't evil" as much as it's a "we'll do whatever the hell we feel like and don't have to face any consequences" group. That being said, even before I heard about what they did my husband wasn't too happy about what they did. He really emphasizes that there will be consequences for rash behavior. They probably would've been fined even if I hadn't intervened. I just made it easier for him to dole out justice. :p


I'm with Maggie. That kind of choice would and should have alignment consequences. I mean, it would've been one thing to have done it if the alchemist promised to move and then reneged, or if he had outright refused, but they negotiated for his moving and then reneged themselves! Dear Lord, that's an evil move.

The alchemist, at least, should become a major antagonist for the group.

Sapphire Silk
07-21-2013, 10:55 PM
Actions have consequences. As a GM myself (though I haven't run in quite awhile) players had to deal with the consequences of their actions. If they did something blatantly outside their alignment, something would happen to enforce those consequences.

The GM I have now is the same way only more so. If you act in a way that is outside your character's described morality, you WILL be held accountable for them: especially if you have certain Disadvantages (we play HERO System/Champions).

For him, if a player dropped a dime in this situation, and walked . . . well, we've had situations like that before where a player has decided they just would not associate with another character, and cut the character loose. It can and does create tension between players. Situations like this are a common reason why campaigns implode.

Usually it's a single player who goes evil and screws up the game. In this case, one player stuck to her guns while the supposedly "good" characters went evil.


In that case, as GM, my action would have been to inform the characters of their alignment change. Priests associated with their gods would refuse to help them (they wouldn't need to understand why); any magic items that depended on alignment would no longer work.

Another possible reaction would be that friends of the murdered alchemist might have found out what happened, connected the dots (maybe through a journal that survived the fireball) and started hunting the characters or sending assassins after them. There are all kinds of ways to get the players to get the message they have to play in alignment without forcing a single player to take the heat on her own. Hubs could have helped with that; instead he's letting the players get away with what is essentially Chaotic behavior (the ends justify the means). The fine hasn't changed their attitude. The OP's actions in character haven't changed their attitude.

Here is where the GM needs to make a stand. He has to let the players know that while they can make their own choice, they have to be willing to live with those choices. If they don't do that, then he will either run a madhouse, or the game will implode.

GMs and players should think what the reader would want to see in the story.

Captain Picard in STNG was an expert at working with potential enemies to find out what they wanted, and then to try and accommodate their needs in a way that produced win win situations. The players in the OP managed just such a compromise . . . then stabbed their adversary in the back. Very evil in my mind.

I would not want to read a story where Captain Picard pulls off another brilliant negotiation just to see him screw over the other side for his own personal gain. That's what the other players in this scenario did.


Now, if the players WANT to go evil and are willing to live with the consequences, it CAN make for a very interesting game. But the players have to accept those consequences, some of which will cause former friends and allies to reject them.

Crescent Cat
07-21-2013, 10:57 PM
Isn't the point of these games to choose freely? Sounds like everyone is taking it way too seriously. If I was in a group of characters in the same situation my character might have trust issues with a turn coat too. Sounds like everyone is kinda playing their role.

Oh, you can choose freely. You can do whatever you want. Just don't expect to not face consequences for your actions and when you do, don't complain about it because it was your choice to do what you did.

As for being a "turn coat", I wouldn't call my character that. He didn't do it for personal gain. He didn't get a reward for turning them in. He did it because he felt it was the right thing to do. Besides, after they paid the fine he forgave them and was willing to move on. They're the ones who won't let it go. If they didn't want to pay a 42k gold fine and have their reputations in town ruined, they shouldn't have blown up his lab. Simple as that.

Besides, it has gotten beyond simply role playing for them. If they were RPing around me like they were around a goody-two shoes Paladin (such as that scene in Gamers 2: Dorkness Rising) that would be one thing but they are antagonizing me to the point where I don't feel welcome anymore. That's going too far.

Just a note, thank you everyone who backed me up on this. It's nice knowing that I'm not the only one who thought what they did was completely fucked up. I talked to my husband and he doesn't want to force an alignment change at this point because he doesn't want to drag it out. He just wants people to move on so he can run his campaign. While I understand this I'm not satisfied because they were the ones dragging it out to begin with. But whatever. Good to know I can feel bullied out of a campaign and no one will give a shit.

Seraph
07-21-2013, 11:50 PM
Sounds like time for a heart to heart with the husband. It sounds jerkish of me, but he IS running the campaign, and it sounds like he's doing it poorly. Especially if his own WIFE is flipping feeling bullied.

Probably one of the reasons he's reluctant to stop it, is that he is possibly worried they'll think he's doing it only because you're his wife.* So, talk to him.

Don't treat it as "I'm married to you, so you HAVE to do this", but treat it more as a "hey, if this was happening to so-and-so, you'd be taking care of this. A player in your campaign is being bullied and sniped at, TAKE CARE OF IT."


*I am guilty of this, I made my husband save my character once because she was about to die due to a party member's actions, that I vehemently disagreed with. He did it anyways, and my character was going to take the fall, and death from it. I was so flipping furious over it, that my character 'miraculously' survived. I feel bad about that to this day.

paintballworker
07-22-2013, 12:03 AM
My wife has told me, if the choice is saving me cause I'm your wife or letting me die because of my own actions(or lack thereof), feel free to kill me......I demanded that in writing.

Yes, it sounds like a talk is needed..

hinakiba777
07-22-2013, 12:26 AM
I have had people in parties I'm in complain about my character's actions before. Especially if I am trying to keep to character/alignment/class withing my actions. I think the worst example of this was when a GM straight up refused to explain the pantheon of a campaign to me, but then punished my character for not following the rules of the gods of her race. I didn't even know that those rules were.

Another time, a rogue in our party trusted my character to buy him something and gave her his personal gold. She retrieved the item for much less than the estimated cost, but chose to keep the gold. It was established that my character did not like the rogue, and he had stolen from her before. Plus she was Neutral so it woudln't have caused an alignment change. However, everyone else in the campaign complained(out of character because no one was with her when she made the purchase, and she didn't tell anyone what she had done) about keeping the gold until my character was forced to give it back.

However, I've never had it so bad that I felt I needed to leave a campaign. Though there are certain players I won't play with again. Like the person who forced my character into prostitution.

wolfie
07-22-2013, 03:20 AM
My Battletech group learned very very quickly, there are consequences to every action.

One of the players, decided is was a good idea, to massacre a bunch of protesting civilians, who had no weapons of any kind.

Just curious, but was he a Kurita "regular army" type, and did this happen on Kentares?

Crescent Cat
07-22-2013, 12:29 PM
So I talked to my husband and let him know how I was feeling, that I was upset that they kept blaming me for the fallout of their evil act because I did what I felt was the right thing and what not. Apparently he didn't know how bad the problem was because we sat on opposite sides of the table and he couldn't hear all of the comments that were being made. Obviously, when I made a scene last time, he knew about it but he didn't up until that point. Until then I had been trying to get them off my back by calmly explaining my actions in character, but obviously that didn't help.

So he decided he is going to postpone or possibly end that campaign. He sent an email to all players letting them know I will no longer be playing with them and why. He explained that what they did was, indeed, an evil act and that they feel no remorse in or out of character for it. Most importantly he explained that I'm feeling singled out when the situation is brought up and that they are acting as though the fallout was my fault alone when it actually was theirs.

You know, it really sucks when people ruin things that are suppose to be fun.

paintballworker
07-22-2013, 02:15 PM
Ouch...if my pathfinder books hadn't been destroyed in 'The Great Flood of '13', I would soo run a pathfinder campaign and invite you.

Also, no.
He was Lyran by birth, merc by trade and the world was a dustball in the middle of the Federated Suns outback. His exact words were 'who gives a damn about a bunch of civvie farmers'.

EricKei
07-22-2013, 02:39 PM
hina -- Wait...people complained about a rogue -- the archetype most likely to cheat his own party members -- getting cheated out of some gold? O_O I'm curious about how the characters (not the players) found out about it, anyway...

Had the rogue done something like that to another character, most players would have chalked it up to just "playing in character," unless the player had already established the toon as more of a Robin Hood-type of rogue. Heck, he might even get a small EXP bonus for doing it!

Kheldarson
07-22-2013, 09:20 PM
hina -- Wait...people complained about a rogue -- the archetype most likely to cheat his own party members -- getting cheated out of some gold? O_O I'm curious about how the characters (not the players) found out about it, anyway...

Had the rogue done something like that to another character, most players would have chalked it up to just "playing in character," unless the player had already established the toon as more of a Robin Hood-type of rogue. Heck, he might even get a small EXP bonus for doing it!

Some people are like this. The group I played with in college had a guy who was so OCD and efficiency minded that when we finished the Pirate's Cove module we were able to buy pretty much...everything. We bought equipment to essentially double our effective level and still had extra.

But. The rogue couldn't steal any extra without telling him. If I even tried, he'd pitch a small fit. It got...boring after a while having everything divided exactly equally and to the greatest efficiency.

KhirasHY
07-23-2013, 07:27 AM
I DID remember a fun character that I ran in a campaign (not Pathfinder...can't remember what system we used for it actually). He was the perfect Mercenary character: one of the other PCs would pay a certain amount of cash each game day in order to keep me under contract. While under contract, I was obligated to follow the orders of my employer, to the letter if needs be. This caused several problems, which actually became a large motivator in the story for our party.

See, my employer also had a good intelligence score, but jack shit on his wisdom score. That meant that while he was fairly efficient in shouting out "Kill them all", he was not exactly good at realizing that he needed to countermand that order when someone mentioned we might need a prisoner. Oops.

I also had fun basically becoming a supplemental antagonist at times, since I wasn't under contract to the other party members, which led to my character famously mentioning that "any stupidity you involve yourself in without (employer) is more or less your fuck up to enjoy!" When they finally convinced my contractor to order me to also follow their orders, it led to an even more fun conversation:
"So, if we're outnumbered ten to one and we order you to open fire, you would do it?"
"No, I would either shoot you, or use your body as a shield and run away."
"What!? Why!?!?"
"Because my contract specifically states I only have to follow intelligent orders. Section 3, Paragraph 7 has specific guidelines on what constitutes 'dumbfuckery' and the punishments therein. I heard you two joking about making me get you pies earlier, by the way, and under my current contract I am well within my rights to deliver you pies made out of deadly chemicals and filled with pressure-activated explosives."
"Why would you put that in your contract?"
"You have no idea how many stupid people there are in this galaxy, do you? Necessity."

I really miss that character. Sure, he threatened to casually murder the other PCs on a regular basis, but once they figured out how to sidestep his rough edges, they generally managed to point his aggression in the right direction. I only ever betrayed them twice, but they never found out about that, and it was all in fairness while I negotiated a higher paying contract with them. ;) (And one of those times, my employer forgot to pay my contract for a few days, thus voiding it. Once he re-hired me, well, I was obligated to murder my way through the people I'd hired to convince him to pay me again, now wasn't I? Then I didn't have to pay them!)

Mytical
07-23-2013, 07:57 AM
Personally I don't meta game, and usually am confused when people do. Any knowledge gained in character should remain in character, any knowledge gained out of character should remain out of character.

If somebody in your group is giving you a hard time for something they should have no way of knowing (like say a thief keeping some gold), then that is meta gaming and it should be put a stop to by the game/dungeon master.

Gerrinson
07-23-2013, 12:59 PM
Oof. That was an unpleasant situation. I have a pretty regular Pathfinder game I run (2 - 3 times a month), and my players do some crazy s***. But they don't argue the consequences of their actions too much, either. In the current campaign, one of my players has openly stated that his Chaotic Neutral character is leaning towards Evil.

The only real complaining from my current group wasn't even done to my face. There was was an instance where a PC decided to cheat at the first casino they found. The Lawful Neutral PC, I might add. He got caught. So, they dragged him out back, beat him unconscious, tattooed the word 'CHEATER' onto his chest, stripped him of valuables and clothing, and left him in a ditch.

The player was saying that this was 'too harsh' a punishment for getting caught cheating, though after game and to the other players, not to me. The other players pointed out that in old-school Las Vegas, which was the model for this city, he would have just wound up in a shallow grave for blatant cheating and he should consider his continued existence as a sign of leniency.

Of course, in order to get his revenge, the Lawful Netrual PC decided to Tarzan-swing off the top of a 2 story builiding in order to throw bombs into the office of the NPC who ran the local casino.

Did I mention that on the first pass by the window he noticed the party's employer was in the room and tossed the bombs anyway?

Did I also mention that his 'great escape' was to drop the remaining 1 story to the ground right next to the 4 half-orc guards standing outside the back entrance while the rest of the PCs got the hell out of dodge for fear of backlash.

Needless to say, he didn't quite survive his crazy antics, though not for lack of trying.

Ghel
07-23-2013, 01:33 PM
I'm playing a necromancer in a Pathfinder evil campaign right now. Being an evil campaign, there's a lot of cheating and conniving going on. So far, it has mostly worked out. We have the one lawful neutral character be the voice of the party, and we go along with his decisions, for the most part. (I don't think that player's strategies have been very good, but that's been more to his own detriment than anyone else's.)

I, too, try not to meta-game. It's hard sometimes. I know what something is, but my character failed her knowledge check. Or I'll forget and have to ask the DM, "did I hear that?" or "would I know...?" I remember one time in a Shadowrun campaign telling one of the other players, "If my character finds out you've been withholding information, she'll kill you."

hinakiba777
07-24-2013, 09:34 AM
O_O I'm curious about how the characters (not the players) found out about it, anyway...


I really would love to know how it happened. I think people were just bitter about how much gold my Oracle had. She really didn't need any gear, so she never spent her gold. 50% of our income went into building a city, but the rest was ours. However, everyone except he gnome king spent their gold very quickly, and the gnome king put 100% of his gold into the city. So they were pissed that I had like 6000 gold. It should also be noted, my Oracle was the only person in our party with a job. So she got paid a lot. In addition to the forced prostitution. I REALLY hated that dwarf.


The campaign was supposed to end with the revelation that the god who chose my oracle was actually the demi-god of betrayal who served the god of destruction who was destroying the continent. I was supposed to just turn evil and obliterate my party members. We never did have the last session. But part of me believes that the GM let all the others pick on me so I would hate them, and then not fight it when my God got revealed to be EVIL!

GODS I wanted to play that last session so badly! No one ever lets me be an oracle anymore because all the GMs complain it's "extra work for them."

violiavampyr
07-24-2013, 03:44 PM
Personally it irritates me when GMs make one person the lynchpin to everything. I've seen it get so bad that if that person doesn't show for a game then there can't be a game. Fortunately my BF is pretty good at balancing things. He's tries to keep things focused on the overall team.

There has been a time or two when he does it as part of the plot, and it works really well. But it never became the TJ show (Dark Heresy: The Haarlock's Legacy Trilogy), and it was a total surprise to everyone (even TJ). That was a fun one. He were undercover at somesort of evil auction (in our group only 2 people knew anything about Warhammer 40k, the GM and TJ) and our tech priest tried to jack into somesort of evil computer AND THEN he later was wandering around and put on a chaos marine shoulder cover. Things did not end well.
ETA2: Actually, the other time I've seen it work well was in another Dark Heresy game)

I've been in other games were it became the GMs wife/girlfriend/girl he has a crush on show. Even on the very rare occasions (just one time for a Rouge Trader campaign, and then only because it my showing up was a sure thing) were I take the role of "leader" or "Captain" it's not the violiav show. No favoritism at all.

Actually in that Rouge Trader campaign it was close to becoming the douchebag guy BF and I worked for show (he's got one of those "needs to be the center of attention" personalities). I would have capped him in game when he started inciting rebellion, but he was such a douche he would have gotten douchier at work.

ETA: The pathfinder game he's running now I took the flaw "Gods Wrath" (something like that), but I asked first.