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Jay 2K Winger
08-26-2014, 05:06 AM
Everyone's favorite time-traveling Time Lord is back!

Freshly regenerated into the form of Peter Capaldi, the Doctor has to try to discover what his new incarnation is like as a person.


THERE WILL BE SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD! NO NEED TO SPOILER-HIDE ANYTHING!

Questions after "Deep Breath"
= What is the Promised Land/Paradise/Heaven?
= Who gave Clara the Doctor's number? Who placed the ad in the newspaper?
= Who is Missy?

My theory about question 2 is that Missy passed out that information. As for who Missy is, I think she is The Master, escaped from Gallifrey and regenerated once again. The Promised Land is inside Missy/The Master's TARDIS.

Jester
08-26-2014, 05:50 AM
My impressions of the first Twelve episode:

I don't know yet if I like or dislike Capaldi. He was very, very confused. And yes, he's supposed to be, but he is far more confused and confusing than either Ten or Eleven were in their first episodes.

Clara and the other companions were typically brilliant.

My bigger problem with the Deep Breath than Twelve's confusion was the script's confusion. The whole story seemed muddled and directionless. Basically, it was the polar opposite of a brilliant story like, say, Blink. And it lacked the dynamic of The Eleventh Hour or The Christmas Invasion, Eleven's and Ten's first episodes, respectively.

It just fell flat to me. I hope it picks up. I really do.

Kheldarson
08-26-2014, 07:34 AM
I think I like Capaldi, but I'm real tired of Moffat. I kept feeling like saying "yes, we get it" the whole way through.

And absolutely hated the way they resolved the issue between Clara and the Doctor. I'm sorry, why couldn't the new incarnation have found a way to convince her over having a callback? It undermined the new character!

Other than that, it was OK. But I'm not completely sold on it yet.

KabeRinnaul
08-26-2014, 07:54 AM
Common theory is that Missy was somehow River Song.

I'm convinced the reality will actually be stupider than that.

Though the Missy=Mistress=Master argument isn't too unreasonable to me.

Throughout the whole thing, I couldn't help but feel they were trying to make Capaldi into "Smith but with grey hair". For almost the entire episode, everything that 12 did, I could easily see 11 doing. The worst there was the final scene between Clara and the Doctor, as they walked off on the sidewalk. It sounded exactly like Amy and 11 talking, and gave the impression Moffat just wanted to bring them back again.

There were two scenes I really liked. First, Vastra casually trying to get Clara to take her clothes off. That was great.

Second, the Doctor confronting the Half-Faced Man. That scene with the line "I have the horrible feeling I'm gonna have to kill you" and offering the drink. Capaldi owned that scene and made the Doctor his more than anywhere else in the episode.

mjr
08-26-2014, 11:29 AM
Not really being interested in Doctor Who until fairly recently, I don't know a lot of the "back story" for the characters.

Who was the green lizard-looking lady? What was her function? Were the half-face man and the robot people just the Cybermen trying to look "human" or something? Who was the fat, squat, melted-piece-of-chocolate looking dude?

One line made me giggle. It was when The Doctor was in the alley, and he was looking in the mirror and complaining about his face ("Why this face??") and he figured out he was Scottish (I think it was), and said something like, "That means I can complain about everything!"

And his whole, "That's not the question. The real question is..."

And apparently now The Doctor can speak dinosaur...

My wife and I briefly discussed what we thought happened to the half-faced man. We were wondering if he jumped, or if The Doctor actually did kill him by pushing him.

And one thing we couldn't figure out was when the half-faced robot guy was in Heaven/Paradise, the lady there mentioned "my boyfriend". Was she referencing The Doctor there?

Kheldarson
08-26-2014, 12:13 PM
Not really being interested in Doctor Who until fairly recently, I don't know a lot of the "back story" for the characters.

Who was the green lizard-looking lady? What was her function?

That's Vastra. She's an ancient dinosaur/reptilian race that the Doctor faced and came to a compromise with. She's helping prepare for the day the rest of her race returns, per agreement.

Were the half-face man and the robot people just the Cybermen trying to look "human" or something?

No. There's an episode in Tennant's run where they were in a ship that was keeping itself alive by harvesting parts from people. This is the same type of ship/scenario.

Who was the fat, squat, melted-piece-of-chocolate looking dude?

That's Strax. He's a Sontaran who's paying a debt off to the Doctor. So he's no longer a warrior but a Nurse.


And apparently now The Doctor can speak dinosaur...

And baby :p The TARDIS has a translation function.

And one thing we couldn't figure out was when the half-faced robot guy was in Heaven/Paradise, the lady there mentioned "my boyfriend". Was she referencing The Doctor there?

More than likely.

Jester
08-26-2014, 12:59 PM
And absolutely hated the way they resolved the issue between Clara and the Doctor. I'm sorry, why couldn't the new incarnation have found a way to convince her over having a callback? It undermined the new character!

Completely agree. Ten won over Rose on his own. Eleven never had any old companions to win over. Twelve had to rely on Eleven? And just what in The Doctor's history of regenerations would lead him to think that that would be necessary?

Common theory is that Missy was somehow River Song.

There were definitely some River-esque qualities about her personality.

The worst there was the final scene between Clara and the Doctor, as they walked off on the sidewalk. It sounded exactly like Amy and 11 talking, and gave the impression Moffat just wanted to bring them back again.

I didn't hear Amy in that, but I can see the Eleven side. And Moffat tipped his hand about it when he had Twelve mutter "At times like this I miss Amy." Funny, I admit, but really? Too bad for Moffat Amy is off fighting the Guardians of the Galaxy. :lol:

Second, the Doctor confronting the Half-Faced Man. That scene with the line "I have the horrible feeling I'm gonna have to kill you" and offering the drink. Capaldi owned that scene and made the Doctor his more than anywhere else in the episode.

Definitely his strongest scene, and where I thought at the time that Twelve was finally "waking up" and coming into his own as The Doctor. And then he reverted back to being confused and needy. Ugh.

It was when The Doctor was in the alley...

His other best scene. Utterly hilarious, the whole thing.

And apparently now The Doctor can speak dinosaur...

Nothing new there. He can speak baby, too. This part didn't surprise me so much.

And one thing we couldn't figure out was when the half-faced robot guy was in Heaven/Paradise, the lady there mentioned "my boyfriend". Was she referencing The Doctor there?

Almost certainly. And this has nothing to do with any great insight into the show on my part. It's just that she actually asked if Half Face jumped, or if her "boyfriend" threw him. Pretty much a dead on reference to The Doctor, wouldn't you say?

firecat88
08-26-2014, 05:46 PM
Heaven/Paradise looked suspiciously like the planet that the Doctor, Amy, and Rory visited in 'The Girl Who Waited'. I don't know if they're going somewhere with that or if they just recycled the set and hoped no one would notice.

Also, I am glad that they very bluntly established the 'I am not your boyfriend' thing between 12 and Clara. As for 12 himself, I very much already like him. The eyebrow rant was hilarious (actually, like Jester said, that whole entire alley scene was brilliant). Veeeeeery curious to see where he'll go from here. And who his next companion will be since apparently Coleman is leaving the show after Christmas.

Jay 2K Winger
08-26-2014, 06:09 PM
I agree that Capaldi is still finding his feet with Twelve, and bear in mind also that this is Twelve almost immediately after regeneration, when the Doctor is always more manic/insane/confused than ever. When Nine became Ten, we missed out on some of that, because he was mostly comatose for the duration of his debut episode, and even after he settled down a bit to confront the Sycorax, he expressed some doubts/confusion about his new self.

And when Ten became Eleven, there was some of that strange behavior as well, but it seems like Eleven intentionally held back some of it, because the first person he met after regenerating was a scared little girl who needed his help, and he didn't want to frighten her more than she was already. Most of his confusion was expressed then with his getting used to his new tastebuds.


I can see where people are coming from with the whole Missy = River Song angle, except if Missy were River, she wouldn't refer to the Doctor as "my boyfriend." (They got married, remember.)

I've also seen theories elsewhere that Missy is supposed to be some aspect of the TARDIS, perhaps spun off as a result of escaping her own supposed death at Trenzalore, and having developed an obsession with the Doctor. I don't think this is likely, however. If Missy were part of the TARDIS, I doubt if she'd call him "my boyfriend." Remember, again, that Neil Gaiman's episode featuring Idris was called "The Doctor's Wife." And even then, she called him "my thief." I suppose, of course, in her Yandere (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Yandere) obsession, she might think he's her boyfriend, but, as I said, I'm not sure I believe this theory.

Kheldarson
08-26-2014, 09:26 PM
I can see where people are coming from with the whole Missy = River Song angle, except if Missy were River, she wouldn't refer to the Doctor as "my boyfriend." (They got married, remember.)

Would depend on where she is chronologically and what her game is, wouldn't it?

Either way, she's probably going to hit the same character archetype as River because Moffat doesn't seem capable of helping himself there >.<

I've also seen theories elsewhere that Missy is supposed to be some aspect of the TARDIS, perhaps spun off as a result of escaping her own supposed death at Trenzalore, and having developed an obsession with the Doctor. I don't think this is likely, however. If Missy were part of the TARDIS, I doubt if she'd call him "my boyfriend." Remember, again, that Neil Gaiman's episode featuring Idris was called "The Doctor's Wife." And even then, she called him "my thief." I suppose, of course, in her Yandere (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Yandere) obsession, she might think he's her boyfriend, but, as I said, I'm not sure I believe this theory.

That's an interesting theory though.

Jay 2K Winger
08-27-2014, 12:33 AM
Would depend on where she is chronologically and what her game is, wouldn't it?

I'd agree, but I think it's been solidly established that River's regenerations went thus:

Baby Melody/1969 Girl in Spacesuit -> Mels -> River Song

And then she used up all of her regenerations to save the Doctor's life.

Either way, she's probably going to hit the same character archetype as River because Moffat doesn't seem capable of helping himself there >.<

I agree that Moffat seems incapable of letting go. River's story is pretty neatly wrapped up, I think, following "The Wedding of River Song." The mystery of who she is was answered, and after "The Time of the Doctor," even the mystery of The Silence were was answered. (And let's not even touch on the fact that Tasha Lem from the same episode is basically Pope River Song.)

Stormraven
08-27-2014, 03:25 AM
My own theory about who gave Clara the telephone #, and who ran the ad is Clara herself. Remember, she's in every one of his timelines - and she has to be, or he doesn't continue, so she makes sure they meet, then makes sure she's there to help him through his regen.

As for Missy, I've seen many competing theories. Currently, in my mind, the Master is leading, as Missy could be a hidden form of 'Mistress', but I don't think we have nearly enough evidence yet.

Sapphire Silk
08-27-2014, 03:38 AM
That's Vastra. She's an ancient dinosaur/reptilian race that the Doctor faced and came to a compromise with. She's helping prepare for the day the rest of her race returns, per agreement.

The Silurians. Who won't reappear for another 150 years at the least. She's married to Jenny Flint, the maid. I LOVE their dynamic, and this episode didn't disappoint.

That's Strax. He's a Sontaran who's paying a debt off to the Doctor. So he's no longer a warrior but a Nurse.

Right. He was killed at Demon's Run, but Vastra brought him back to life. His brains are a bit more scrambled even for a Sontaran. I love his dynamic, too. Makes the show very interesting.

And baby :p The TARDIS has a translation function.

Right. And it affects anyone who travels with the Doctor. That's why his Companions always understand the languages of the people they visit. One of 10's companions (the white dumpy one, can't remember her name), when they visted Pompeii, she tried speaking to the Romans in Latin . . . they thought she was speaking Celtic.

I'd agree, but I think it's been solidly established that River's regenerations went thus:

Baby Melody/1969 Girl in Spacesuit -> Mels -> River Song

And then she used up all of her regenerations to save the Doctor's life.

Let me add, River is now an electronic being in the Library Database. She was able to project herself to Trenzalore via Clara, but the Doctor was able to see her and communicate with her. There's a hint she's not quite done with the Doctor, which is totally cool to me. River Song is one of my favorite characters ever!

(And let's not even touch on the fact that Tasha Lem from the same episode is basically Pope River Song.)

How do you figure that?


As for 12, I cautiously like him. He wasn't the instant hit Matt Smith was with me. His behaviors don't seem unusual for a Doctor as he goes through the regeneration and stabilizes.

I'm not too happy with Clara's reaction to this. She knows all about the Doctor's regeneration process and she's been watching the Doctor for centuries through all his regenerations. So her reaction to 12 doesn't make any sense to me, and I think she's being rather pissy about the whole thing. A shame, I actually like Clara (but I miss Amy and Rory).

KabeRinnaul
08-27-2014, 05:54 AM
One of 10's companions (the white dumpy one, can't remember her name), when they visted Pompeii, she tried speaking to the Romans in Latin . . . they thought she was speaking Celtic.

That was Donna, my pick for best of the modern companions (Jack doesn't really count). They thought she was speaking Celtic because she wasn't speaking Latin properly, but instead quoting a famous line (in this case, "Veni, vidi, vici") and mangling the pronunciation.

If she'd actually been fluent in Latin and was actually trying to communicate something, they'd probably find her speech very heavily accented, but understandable.

Javarod
08-27-2014, 06:11 AM
And baby :p The TARDIS has a translation function.

A moot point, i mean the Doctor has already demonstrated that he speaks horse and baby, why should dinosaur be surprising?

Jay 2K Winger
08-27-2014, 06:26 AM
Right. He was killed at Demon's Run, but Vastra brought him back to life. His brains are a bit more scrambled even for a Sontaran. I love his dynamic, too. Makes the show very interesting.

Strax didn't die. He just fainted.

How do you figure that?

Watch "The Time of the Doctor" again and listen to Tasha Lem's dialog. Every one of her lines could easily have been spoken by River Song. She's a capable female paramour of the Doctor's, and she's capable of piloting the TARDIS. She's basically River Song in all but name.

I'm not too happy with Clara's reaction to this. She knows all about the Doctor's regeneration process and she's been watching the Doctor for centuries through all his regenerations. So her reaction to 12 doesn't make any sense to me, and I think she's being rather pissy about the whole thing. A shame, I actually like Clara (but I miss Amy and Rory).

We don't know how many of Clara's multitude of lives she remembers. She was aware of them while she was still in the Doctor's timestream at Trenzalore in his grave, but who's to say she remembers them after she got out of it.

Kheldarson
08-27-2014, 08:25 AM
I'm not too happy with Clara's reaction to this. She knows all about the Doctor's regeneration process and she's been watching the Doctor for centuries through all his regenerations. So her reaction to 12 doesn't make any sense to me, and I think she's being rather pissy about the whole thing. A shame, I actually like Clara (but I miss Amy and Rory).

Well, even if she knows all that, which Doctor does she actually know and is majorly involved in? Most of the others, we got the impression that she was just a passing moment in his story. But 11, now, he was her friend. And now he's gone. True, not really dead, as the Doctor is still there, but everything that made him the man she thought of when the name is mentioned is gone. Replaced by somebody who couldn't even keep her straight for a while.

Wouldn't you be in a mourning period?

Kheldarson
08-28-2014, 12:15 PM
And an interesting review and thread discussion from Howard Taylor:

http://www.schlockmercenary.com/blog/the-new-doctors-new-clothes#disqus_thread

Jay 2K Winger
08-28-2014, 08:30 PM
Random observation that just now hit me.

Back during "A Good Man Goes to War," Rory goes to try to pick up River from the Stormcage Prison, and we get this conversation.

Rory: Rory: I've come from the Doctor too.
River: Yes, but at a different point in time.
Rory: Unless there's two of them.
River: Now... that's a whole different birthday.

When did we get two multiple Doctors? The 50th Anniversary Special, of course.

Andrew B.
08-29-2014, 12:33 AM
Has anyone given thought to the idea that Missy could be The Rani? That was my first thought.

Moirae
08-29-2014, 01:25 AM
I didn't like the episode much. It felt like it was going nowhere. With 9, 10, and 11, you had an indication of their personalities before the show ended. Not with this one. We don't have a clue who this man is.

As usually, I really didn't like Clara. But then, the only two episodes she was good in were the ones before she became an official companion. She's kind of just along for the ride as an official companion and its frustrating.

Love the fact that Vastra and Jenni kissed. Great idea and probably a first too.

I'm not sure who Missy is, but I have a hunch she's the Tardis or River Song in a future form.

Jester
08-29-2014, 02:35 AM
Everyone else has piped in on their theory about Missy, so I'm gonna pipe in on mine.

I don't believe it can be the Tardis. It would have referred to The Doctor as "my thief," or same variant thereof.

I don't believe it is River Song, either. She has many phrases for The Doctor--"my sweetie," "my husband," "my love," "my lover," my Doctor"--but "my boyfriend" has never, to my recall, been one of them.

It can't be Donna. Because, well, no. At best, she'd refer to him as "my spaceman." If she were being charitable.

It can't be Amy Pond. Rory is her boyfriend, lover, and husband, period.

It can't be Martha Jones. A brief crush does not a psycho girlfriend make. And it's just all wrong for her.

It can't be Tasha Lem. Too playful.

It can't be Captain Jack Harkness. Not playful enough. And no history there.

It can't be Madam Kevorian. Too positive, light, and non-evil or threatening.

That leaves to me only two possibilities, at least since the reboot (Nine on), as I am completely in the dark when it comes to the original series and the first Eight.

Possibility #1: It's Clara, in some form. "I'm not your boyfriend." "No, you're not." Methinks the lady doth protest too much. She clearly thought of Eleven as kinda her boyfriend. Otherwise, why would he mention it? Why would she so readily agree?

Now, that may be the most logical choice, but I don't think it's right. My theory is coming way out of left field. And may be a bit hard for some to swallow, but I'm gonna go with it anyway. And that is.....

Rose Tyler. Along with River Song, one of the two closest love interests The Doctor's had. Someone who could realistically refer to The Doctor as her boyfriend. Someone who was left with a clone of Ten to live with AS her boyfriend (presumably). Someone who could conceivably have gone crazy. Someone the show's writers bring back almost as often as the Daleks.

Short of some minor acquaintance, some cray cray villain, or someone from the original run, my money's on the chavette shop girl.

AccountingDrone
08-29-2014, 10:01 AM
Very logically laid out.

I just seem to think it is someone new from his past that we have either not yet met, or have met but in a very peripheral way. I know the actress seems familiar for some reason.

KatherineB
08-29-2014, 10:21 AM
Random observation that just now hit me.

Back during "A Good Man Goes to War," Rory goes to try to pick up River from the Stormcage Prison, and we get this conversation.

Rory: Rory: I've come from the Doctor too.
River: Yes, but at a different point in time.
Rory: Unless there's two of them.
River: Now... that's a whole different birthday.

When did we get two multiple Doctors? The 50th Anniversary Special, of course.

Jay, there was also this mini-episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPVZEQQUnu8). Two Elevens, what's more.

And I do agree with you that Tasha Lem is just River all over again.

I think Missy is/will be a dark version of the TARDIS, most likely influenced by the Time Lords, since I refuse to believe they will let the Doctor get away with his freebie new regenerations without extracting some sort of payment.

AccountingDrone
08-29-2014, 04:53 PM
Jay, there was also this mini-episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPVZEQQUnu8). Two Elevens, what's more.

And I do agree with you that Tasha Lem is just River all over again.

I think Missy is/will be a dark version of the TARDIS, most likely influenced by the Time Lords, since I refuse to believe they will let the Doctor get away with his freebie new regenerations without extracting some sort of payment.

Hm, a dark tardis ... now that is food for thought. She did somewhat remind me of The Doctor's Wife slightly. Though I really could see her as someone from his past, from Gallifrey when he was growing up. Sort of like the Master was apparently a school chum of his.

Moirae
08-30-2014, 01:22 AM
Why do you think it would be Rose Tyler? Rose was never this menacing and dangerous. Missy is both. The only one to come across that way is River Song.

Jester
08-30-2014, 03:45 AM
We do not know she is dangerous. She was only menacing to the robot man.

That aside, what would make you say Rose was never menacing or dangerous? She was both, and had the potential to be both, especially if she felt someone she loved was in danger. Like, say, The Doctor.

She's the only Companion (in the new show) that I've seen actually scare The Doctor.

Now, if you still don't believe Rose Tyler was ever menacing or dangerous....ask some Daleks.

retro
08-30-2014, 05:09 AM
Can't remember her name at the moment, but what about Missy as being The Master's wife?

Also, I'm glad that we don't really know who the Twelfth Doctor is yet.

9, 10 and 11 were too convenient in my eyes. A lot of the classic run, we were still finding out who the new incarnation was after several episodes.

AccountingDrone
08-30-2014, 06:14 PM
Can't remember her name at the moment, but what about Missy as being The Master's wife?

Also, I'm glad that we don't really know who the Twelfth Doctor is yet.

9, 10 and 11 were too convenient in my eyes. A lot of the classic run, we were still finding out who the new incarnation was after several episodes.

I don't think so, she was an earth woman - I don't see her as Missy. I could see The Master as Missy, after all back in The Doctor's Wife the Doctor mentioned that some time lords flipped genders occasionally, like the one with the Oubouros snake tattoo.

Kheldarson
08-31-2014, 02:11 AM
I'm getting closer to being done here. How do you make a Dalek episode that boring? >.<

KabeRinnaul
08-31-2014, 03:59 AM
This season is managing the unforgivable. It's making me into one of those "This show was better when..." guys.

I never wanted to be that guy.

But while watching the latest, it kept reminding me of Eccleston's episode "Dalek" (S1E6), so after we got done with this latest (and dullest) Dalek appearance, we rewatched that one.

It's stunning how much better it was at that point.

Gizmo
08-31-2014, 08:36 AM
Ok, I'll admit I had problems with Smith and stopped watching completely after a while with him. Even when we watched the multiple doctor special I still didn't like him.

However, my review of the 2nd Capaldi episode is as follows:

-Did the 'poor little PTSD thing'

-Back to the Doctor thinking he was bad and wanting to be told otherwise.

-Trite use of "bolshy" female soldiers. (and dissing them at the end...)

-"Just Blow up all the shit" attitude to move the story on.

-Clara being all "you’re an asshole..." to the Doctor feels unnecessary and not well handled

-Over playing of the whole "who/what is the doctor" and "I am the doctor" bullshit that made any of Smith and the last few of Tennant suck.

-The fact there was nothing in there to make me think of it as nothing bar a B movie SyFy fail….

And I agree with those above that said that Capaldi is directionless, confused and listless. I hate to say it but Smith (what I saw of him) was better.

AccountingDrone
08-31-2014, 10:52 AM
Though 'my doctor' should be Jon Pertwee and Tom Baker [I watched on PBS when they were rare imported shows] I really prefer Chris Eccleston. I am very ambivalent about Capaldi - I expect the first show of the new Doctor to show him as confused as he works into his new body, but he is still wishy-washy in the second episode. If he had been the 10th Doctor, I would have expected him to wrap things up by blipping back and saving Blue's brother from burning up, and an overall happy ending for the hospital ship and earth.

I am not certain where the 12th Doctor is headed, but I do hope his rudderless ship gets an oarsman soon.

Jester
08-31-2014, 01:27 PM
This episode was definitely better than the first, and had some direction to it. Maybe not as much as we'd like, but it wasn't as confused or muddled as the first. I rather enjoyed it, and it gives me hope for this season, or at least more hope than I had after the first episode.

Someone definitely needs to pull that stick out of Twelve's ass, though. Don't know if it's Capaldi or the writers making him so listless, but it needs to get fixed. I don't think every Doctor has to be as energetic as Tennant or as manic as Smith, but even Eccleston had some life to him. So far, Capaldi has only give us a few sparks here and there, hints at what he could be, but so far, that's it.

Also, I don't hate Clara as much as some people seem to. Okay, that sounded bad. I mean, I don't hate Clara, as some people do. There, that's better. No, she's not Rose or Amy, but she's pretty cool. I like her.

Of course, I adored Amy, but she was a redheaded Scottish badass hottie. How could I NOT?

Kheldarson
08-31-2014, 02:21 PM
This episode was definitely better than the first, and had some direction to it. Maybe not as much as we'd like, but it wasn't as confused or muddled as the first. I rather enjoyed it, and it gives me hope for this season, or at least more hope than I had after the first episode.

It had direction, but the biggest problems were the same as always with Moffat: doing too much and not doing enough.

We introduce Clara's endgame, which is fine, but we can't just introduce him, we have to try to elicit major feels for him despite him only being on screen a few minutes at that point.

We have a "rebel" ship that's not seemingly rebelling against anything, because I don't think you can rebel against someone who's not your overlord.

We have a Dalek plot that is a direct callback to an earlier episode and does nothing to really expand on the premise.

Then we have Missy and heaven, which really felt like a "oh right, we have to include a shot of this plot" moment because it completely interrupted the flow of the episode.

And let's not forget the rehashed "am I a good man?" plot. Which isn't being focused on any better than it was in Smith's.

Anyone of these plots could've stood to be better expanded on or cut out in order to get a better damn episode.

Someone definitely needs to pull that stick out of Twelve's ass, though. Don't know if it's Capaldi or the writers making him so listless, but it needs to get fixed. I don't think every Doctor has to be as energetic as Tennant or as manic as Smith, but even Eccleston had some life to him. So far, Capaldi has only give us a few sparks here and there, hints at what he could be, but so far, that's it.

If Capaldi's main difference from previous Doctors is supposed to be that he's willing to let people be killed, I may start throwing things >.<

Also, I don't hate Clara as much as some people seem to. Okay, that sounded bad. I mean, I don't hate Clara, as some people do. There, that's better. No, she's not Rose or Amy, but she's pretty cool. I like her.

Of course, I adored Amy, but she was a redheaded Scottish badass hottie. How could I NOT?

I like Clara, but for me the issue is that she had two really strong episodes before she became the Companion and then became sorta washed out once we found the real Clara. It feels like she's only now getting that cocky adventurousness back.

And that's not Clara's fault so much as Moffat's again.

Sapphire Silk
08-31-2014, 04:07 PM
9, 10 and 11 were too convenient in my eyes. A lot of the classic run, we were still finding out who the new incarnation was after several episodes.

Oh, I disagree with that. Tom Baker set the tone for his Doctor in his very first episode. So did Peter Davidson and Sylvester McCoy. Colin Baker never did find his place at the Doctor; it was like he tried to combine the best of Tom Baker with his own personality and it didn't quite work. Though I never thought he was as bad as some people complained (but then again, I also like George Lazenby as Bond, and I hate Roger Moore).

I thought Eckelston, Tennent and Smith did great jobs of setting their own styles from the very beginning. Capaldi, I'm not as sure about, but what he's doing recalls more to mind of Hartnell or Pertwee and that actually could be a refreshing change.

KabeRinnaul
08-31-2014, 10:36 PM
So, new theory about Missy, which came from conversation with Kheldarson before bed last night.

Missy is Clara—in a way. She's a product of the damage Clara caused to the time stream when she jumped through 11's time scar in "Name of the Doctor".

"Heaven" is going to be found by those who sacrifice themselves in the Doctor's name. The male soldier didn't arrive because he died going against the Doctor's word. The female solder did because she knew her actions would result in her death, but believed it was necessary for the Doctor to succeed.

This also gives us our answer to the final scenes of "Deep Breath". The Half-Faced Man jumped, sacrificing himself in the name of the Doctor's ideals.

And Clara herself, in jumping through the scar, has sacrificed herself for the Doctor a dozen times, spread across his entire life. Which is why she's at the core of Missy/Heaven.

Note also "Deep Breath". Missy refers to the Doctor as "my boyfriend" just after the Doctor tells Clara "I'm not your boyfriend."

Subtlety is not one of Moffat's strong points.

Anyway, I'm betting this will eventually be used as cheap torment for the Doctor when he's forced to confront how many lose their lives in his name.

Another habit of Moffat's—retreading the same ground as Davies. We already did that "so many in my name" bit during The Stolen Earth/Journey's End.

It's going to be so disappointing if I'm right and the finale of Capaldi's first season is just a rehash of one of Tennant's biggest scenes.

dakhur
08-31-2014, 11:13 PM
I'm liking this new doc a lot more after episode 2. He wasted the first ep, enough that I joked about crowd-funding a hit on Moffat if that was the best he could do. But, this ep had everything I like in a light episode. The Doctor, still sorting things out but getting it together to try everything he could to save the Daleks.

The hatred the Brits have of guns and how they love showing that if you need to use a weapon, you've already lost the argument. Showing that even when the Doctor says he doesn't have a plan, he at least has an idea, and it's a good idea for you to go with him.

And last, regrding the school stuff, that they're real people who do real things and act in real ways. I was laughing my head off at the maths teacher replaying it with the right answers and then getting busted and his reactions. Yep, that's what real people do. I know, I'm one of them who does that.

So, overall, I like it. I'm starting to like this Doctor. As long as Moffat continues to use a writing staff and sticks to seeing to the overall story arcs, we might make it past christmas after all. And Capaldi would be ideal to go back to 4 episode stories again, instead of this yank sit-com style they've used the past few years. Let the man stretch and show us what he can do. We won't be disapointed.

Moirae
09-01-2014, 12:23 PM
This episode was better but we still don't know anything about the doctor or the personality he has. It's rather frustrating. At least it was obvious with the last three. Oh heck, all of them. We knew the doctors quickly. This one seems directionless. At least he displayed more of the cleverness of the doctor in this episode than the last.

Moirae
09-08-2014, 03:06 AM
Ok, so this weekends episode...

I absolutely loved it. Though it still feels like I'm waiting for the episode to start (like it has for every episode with this doctor), this is the first time I've seen Clara actually do anything other than be along for the ride. She was quick witted and snappy. And the doctor... he's rather childish but its incredibly funny. It's about time we started seeing the doctors personality come through.

Not to mention, Robin Hood is one of my favorite stories of all time so I'm with Clara on this one. If there's any time period that I'd like to visit, it's this one. I'd love to meet him, especially if he's as charming as the stories say.

Kheldarson
09-08-2014, 08:16 AM
The episode made me laugh, so points for that. I had to walk away when the Doctor was making an ass of himself trying to figure things out. It was much better paced, and I did love Clara in this. I just wanted to smack the Doctor. A lot. What's with the cynic mode?

Kheldarson
09-14-2014, 01:47 AM
We're not even finished with the episode, and I'm sooo frustrated.

Edit: episode done. I'm sad. Very sad.

Jester
09-14-2014, 04:51 PM
This episode had so much potential, and some truly awesome moments. But once again, as a whole, the thing seemed a bit....muddled.

Four episodes in, and while it's not horrible, I don't know any Whovian who's really happy with this new season. I can think of a season that went this deep without someone saying that okay, enough bitching, this is good.

And again, I don't think it's on Capaldi, but more in on the writers. A sports analogy: the rookie quarterback may or may not be able to play, but it's hard to tell with the coach sending in so many screwball plays.

Kheldarson
09-14-2014, 08:57 PM
And again, I don't think it's on Capaldi, but more in on the writers. A sports analogy: the rookie quarterback may or may not be able to play, but it's hard to tell with the coach sending in so many screwball plays.

Agreed. This whole season's issues are directly on Moffat. As a note, last episode (the only one I've rather enjoyed so far) is the only one that doesn't have a Moffat writing credit.

Moirae
09-14-2014, 09:36 PM
Finally we get a real moffat episode. One that ties together the bits and pieces. This is the way its always been done. One of the reasons I never liked the Clara stories is that they were almost all "one off" episodes with nothing joining them all together. This one changed that. It's about time.

Jester
09-15-2014, 02:54 AM
Agreed. This whole season's issues are directly on Moffat. As a note, last episode (the only one I've rather enjoyed so far) is the only one that doesn't have a Moffat writing credit.

I'm going to assume you mean the third episode, and not this last one, as this last one was in fact written by Moffat.

Kheldarson
09-15-2014, 03:15 AM
I'm going to assume you mean the third episode, and not this last one, as this last one was in fact written by Moffat.

Yeah. Meant last week's.

Rhion
09-15-2014, 02:07 PM
I'll just leave this here :D

http://i.imgur.com/Hs6NLTt.jpg
(click to see full size)

JambaBamba
09-15-2014, 11:12 PM
I'm not thrilled with the writing but I'm really liking Capaldi as the Doctor. The episodes so far this season has felt like being teased with no happy ending...like the writing is about to be brilliant and then just totally loses steam.

mjr
09-16-2014, 11:03 AM
Does The Doctor still call people "Pudding Head" or "Pudding Brain"? I thought I remembered that from the "Robin Hood" episode or the "Listen" episode.

Also, in the Robin Hood episode, at the end when the sheriff falls into vat-o-molten gold, are those his hands at the end, like he was trying to climb out?

Was the sheriff actually a robot?

Also, in the latest one, my wife posits that the entire premise was that The Doctor did all of that because he's afraid of the dark. He basically messed up Clara and Dan's date, and messed with Dan's head, because he's afraid of the dark.

She also believes that the color pink (as in Daniel Pink) is relevant somehow (the same with Journey Blue from the "good dalek" episode). Though it's strongly implied that Clara was related to Orson (whom at first, because of the accent, I thought was named "Awesome") in some way.

Kheldarson
09-16-2014, 11:44 AM
Does The Doctor still call people "Pudding Head" or "Pudding Brain"? I thought I remembered that from the "Robin Hood" episode or the "Listen" episode.

I think he used "Pudding Head" in Robin Hood.

Also, in the Robin Hood episode, at the end when the sheriff falls into vat-o-molten gold, are those his hands at the end, like he was trying to climb out?

Yep.

Was the sheriff actually a robot?

Heavily implied that he, like Robin, were real but lost to time.

Also, in the latest one, my wife posits that the entire premise was that The Doctor did all of that because he's afraid of the dark. He basically messed up Clara and Dan's date, and messed with Dan's head, because he's afraid of the dark.

Clara actually outright stated that. "The big bad Time Lord is afraid of the dark." Which the outright stating of all these things is what's killing the season for me.

She also believes that the color pink (as in Daniel Pink) is relevant somehow (the same with Journey Blue from the "good dalek" episode). Though it's strongly implied that Clara was related to Orson (whom at first, because of the accent, I thought was named "Awesome") in some way.

He's her great-grandson. Pretty much stated again. "Time travel...it runs in the family. One of my grandparents... Or great-grandparents..."

Danny's either getting added to the Companion roster or is Clara's exit stratagem.

Moirae
09-16-2014, 12:36 PM
Ummm, google it. He's a new companion. And probably also an exit strategy.

Kheldarson
09-16-2014, 02:17 PM
Ummm, google it. He's a new companion. And probably also an exit strategy.

I'm on my phone ATM. Jumping back and forth between programs is frustrating. :p

Besides, it's not like Moffat isn't hitting us over the head with the "he's important!" bit.

KabeRinnaul
09-17-2014, 05:58 AM
Thing that gets me is we keep going back to old ideas and acting like it's something fresh, when the old idea did it better—or else does a callback to an episode that handled a similar concept better. Or, sometimes, directly conflicts with or ignores the older episode or idea.

"Deep Breath" was just a lengthy callback to "Girl in the Fireplace", taking a generally-comedic episode with a few creepy factors and playing it totally serious (except for the Paternoster trio), but that one fell flat on it's own merits more than being overshadowed by what it referenced.

"Into the Dalek" kept reminding me of Eccleston's episode "Dalek", particularly with the "you are a good Dalek" line. But in the older episode, in addition to is just being all-around better, the line was a bitter condemnation, while here, it was a confused attempt at praise. The older one did it better.

Plus, and here's my bigger issue, what's this thing about "there are no good Daleks"? What about Dalek Sec, who decided that hatred was detrimental to the survival of the Daleks and tried to remove his race's hard-coded genetic hate? And what about Dalek Caan, who saw the entirety of the Dalek race and rejected it, then manipulated Davros into setting up their absolute destruction? I'd even say the lone Dalek from Eccleston's episode was developing a more balanced morality.

I have a feeling someone will suggest that the Doctor just forgot them, but that's a cheap excuse for ignoring continuity, plus I don't buy it in Caan's case. That whole event was too huge for him to just forget about it completely.

Anyway, Robot of Sherwood, while being one of the more enjoyable episodes this run, really pushes the whole "The Doctor is a Cynic Now" thing. And... that's kind of antithetical to most of the show's run up until this point. I don't mind a grimmer Doctor, but, well, I kind of liked that bit about "it's about the triumph of romance and intellect over brute force and cynicism". Plus... we've already done robots just two episodes ago. And this whole "promised land" thing is pretty clearly this season's arc words, but it's just too blatant in comparison to "bad wolf" and "knock four times". Moffat really doesn't do subtle, does he?

And this time... a creature that evolved to be perfect at hiding? Wow, it almost sounds like the Silence. Or the Weeping Angels. Or the Vashta Nerada. All of which are from Moffat episodes. And then the whole thing just felt forced after that. When they went back in time and met young Danny, the Doctor had a perfect opportunity to see what the things were, and adamantly refused to take it. So then he went forward to the end of time and risked all of their lives for another opportunity. And then the episode implied there was never anything there to start with.

All in all... it just keeps getting more and more frustrating to watch.

Jester
09-21-2014, 01:53 PM
Time Heist. Interesting. Odd. Probably the best episode yet of this new season and new Doctor. Definitely Capaldi's best performance yet. No brooding, wishy washy " am I a good man?" nonsense.

And yet.

And yet, still there's a feeling of the story being muddled. It's becoming clear to me that the problem with the new Doctor is not the new Doctor. Capaldi is coming into his own. The scripts, however, are not. The problem with the new Doctor, in my opinion, is the damn writers. They're really not giving Capaldi or Coleman, or anyone else for that matter, much to work with.

Clearly Moffat needs to step down as a writer, because, from what I've seen, as a writer he basically sucks great big giant Dalek balls.

Kheldarson
09-21-2014, 02:32 PM
Clearly Moffat needs to step down as a writer, because, from what I've seen, as a writer he basically sucks great big giant Dalek balls.

Yep. I've been saying that since last season >.<

Definitely liked Time Heist. I wasn't looking at my phone wondering how much time had passed, which is a first this season. But the telly exposition at the end has to stop, FFS. I loved the reveal of all the rewards, I loved the twist of "we're not dead", but I hated how preachy it got around the Director. And how repetitive it was. Bleah.

KabeRinnaul
09-28-2014, 01:42 AM
"It's a play!"

Everyone In The Room Watching: "GOD DAMN IT!"

mjr
10-05-2014, 02:14 AM
Moffatt must be on some good stuff. The moon is an egg? And the spider-like creatures are "bacteria"?

Then he leaves the decision up to an astronaut after her two Red Shirts have died, Clara, and Courtney? Clara stops the countdown just before the nukes go boom, then the Doctor herds everyone into the Tardis to watch the creature hatch and lay ANOTHER moon-like egg??

:headscratch:

Quotable Quotes:

The Doctor (pointing): "NASA's about 2,500 miles that way..."

Kheldarson
10-05-2014, 02:48 AM
We've been singing "Puff the Magic Dragon" here...

But yeah, WTF? I'm not a fan of scary, but I'm getting a little tired of these rug pulls.

Moirae
10-05-2014, 11:33 PM
Really getting tired of all the focus on Clara's personal life. I really don't care. I care about adventures with the Doctor.

Kheldarson
10-05-2014, 11:54 PM
I'd care a bit more if it wasn't constant, boring, and kept using her as a deus ex machina. I mean with Davies' Companions we'd get their personal lives once in a while as background drama with it coming to the fore on occasion. Even Amy had a better balance, and she lost her boyfriend/husband in the midst of traveling!

XCashier
10-06-2014, 01:44 AM
Clearly Moffat needs to step down as a writer, because, from what I've seen, as a writer he basically sucks great big giant Dalek balls.
Agreed. He's not without talent, but he cares not a whit about characterization or plot, and will gladly throw both to the wind for the sake of a cheap scare or cheaper joke.

"Thereís no need for character development, or chat, itís straight into: ĎThereís something wrong here, letís look into this deep, dark hole.í" Yes, that's an actual quote from Moffat. Read here (http://www.scotsman.com/news/time-lad-scores-with-sex-and-daleks-1-1394833). It's an older article, but it shows his mindset and he doesn't seem to have outgrown it.

mjr
10-06-2014, 12:11 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what's up with Missy...

She made an appearance at the end of the moon episode. I can't quite figure out what's up yet...I'm not sure Moffat has figured it out, either.

gremcint
10-06-2014, 11:57 PM
ok, so I don't want to start a fratching conversation but is it just me or did I watch a doctor who episode about abortion and who gets to make the decision? seriously all the male crew die, and the doctor refuses to give his opinion and it comes down to the 3 female characters to make the call.

Kheldarson
10-07-2014, 12:47 AM
ok, so I don't want to start a fratching conversation but is it just me or did I watch a doctor who episode about abortion and who gets to make the decision? seriously all the male crew die, and the doctor refuses to give his opinion and it comes down to the 3 female characters to make the call.

Yes. Yes we did. And not to go Fratching myself, but from a writing perspective, I really disliked the way it was forced.

Jester
10-07-2014, 01:40 AM
ok, so I don't want to start a fratching conversation but is it just me or did I watch a doctor who episode about abortion and who gets to make the decision? seriously all the male crew die, and the doctor refuses to give his opinion and it comes down to the 3 female characters to make the call.

There was unquestionably an allegory going on, and if the writers say otherwise, they're full of it.

gremcint
10-07-2014, 03:17 AM
And not to go Fratching myself

we need to turn "go fratch yourself" into a thing.

Kheldarson
10-07-2014, 09:52 AM
we need to turn "go fratch yourself" into a thing.

We do!

But I think I'm going to go open a thread on Fratching for this episode. I had something to add off Jester's post, but can't say it here.

Kheldarson
10-07-2014, 03:50 PM
Also, interesting blog interpretation for why this episode was written this way: http://blogs.houstonpress.com/artattack/2014/10/doctor_who_kill_the_moon.php

Also, why has this season been getting nothing but rave reviews? Why?

Jester
10-08-2014, 09:08 AM
Pardon my language, but who in the flying FUCK has been giving this season rave reviews? Crack-smoking gibbons? Because every single Whovian I know is somewhere between mildly disappointed and pulling-their-hair-out-with-red-hot-tweezers angry about this season. The writing is anywhere between somewhat disappointing and downright godawful, Capaldi's Doctor fluctuates between vaguely uninterested and arrogantly condescending in his treatment of others, and the supporting cast beyond Clara is a bunch of mindless throwaways. To me it is a no brainer that this is the worst season yet (at least since the reboot--I am completely unfamiliar with the original series), and I've been trying to give it a chance.

I don't hate Clara the way many do, but the fact that so many people DO hate her says a lot. What previous companions have engendered such broad-based hatred? Donna Noble annoyed a few people, sure, but she was generally perceived as hilarious, and a nice change of pace. Martha Jones was beloved by most. As was Rose Tyler. As was Amy Pond. As was Rory Williams. Most people even kinda liked Mickey Smith. I cannot recall a single companion that caused this much outright anger.

As I said, I don't hate Clara. I rather enjoy her. But the writers are either taking too many drugs or not enough. Or perhaps they've given up. There has not been one brilliant episode yet. Best one was passable. No brilliance of "Blink" or "The Doctor's Wife" or "Let's Kill Hitler" or "A Good Man Goes to War" or "The Empty Child" or "The Eleventh Hour" or "Christmas Invasion" or "The Girl in the Fireplace" or "Smith and Jones." Or so many more I could name from the times of Nine, Ten, and Eleven. You know, the kind of episode that you could watch over and over and over again. Has there been any episode so far this season that you'd really want to sit through again? I can honestly say that my least favorite episodes from any of the previous seasons would be preferable to me than the best episode so far from this season.

Hell, forget episodes.....there hasn't been one brilliant LINE as there have been in the past. Perhaps the line they should have for this season is, "Hello. I'm The Doctor. Basically....zzzzzz"

Kheldarson
10-08-2014, 10:26 AM
Do a search for "Doctor Who Kill the Moon". I had to go looking to find a negative review. Nerdist, the Independent, Huffington Post, A.V. Club, all positive.

Jester
10-08-2014, 12:56 PM
I stand by my comment about crack-smoking gibbons.

That aside, you cite the reviews of this episode as all positive, but earlier you said the entire season was getting rave reviews. While I concede that this episode was one of the better ones of this season, that really isn't saying much. I'd be curious to see who is giving the whole season rave reviews. No one I know who actually watches the damn show.

It's even worse when you consider how much damn buildup and self-congratulatory hype they shoved down our throats from the end of Smith's run though the (admittedly awesome) three Doctor special to the unveiling of the new Doctor (a whole hour show for THAT bullshit?) to this steaming pile of a season.

I used to enjoy a beer while watching this show. Now I feel like I NEED it.

The gibbons could probably use a few, too.

Kheldarson
10-08-2014, 01:44 PM
I've been looking up episodes as they go, and Google keeps coming up with all these positive reviews. Hell, even the last episode, whose title escapes me at the moment, was getting positives.

Ah. It was The Caretaker. And one of its reviews: http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/doctor-who-caretaker-209787

And Kill the Moon: http://m.ign.com/articles/2014/10/04/doctor-who-kill-the-moon-review

Gizmo
10-08-2014, 08:33 PM
The last episode - beyond the drivel they call the story was the first that didn't have me looking at the clock wondering if it was over yet.... that isn't exactly high praise.

KabeRinnaul
10-09-2014, 01:14 AM
Hell, forget episodes.....there hasn't been one brilliant LINE as there have been in the past. Perhaps the line they should have for this season is, "Hello. I'm The Doctor. Basically....zzzzzz"

I dunno. "I have the horrible feeling I'm gonna have to kill you" from the first episode was pretty good. Might have had more impact if they'd carried through with a darker Doctor who was more willing to use violence, instead of just making him an older and bitchier Eleven.

Jester
10-09-2014, 12:46 PM
Pretty good? Sure. Brilliant? No.

Moirae
10-09-2014, 03:43 PM
My husband and I have taken to just recording the show and watching it later. I used to drop whatever I was doing to watch it as it was broadcast. This season is all right, but it is definitely NOT fantastic, alonsy, spoilers, the girl who waited, etc.

I'm rather disappointed with this doctor and with the intense focus on Clara's life. I really honestly don't like Clara at all and they seem to be obsessed with her. And their relationship to each other... I've never seen a companion that LESS likes the doctor and doesn't seem to understand him in the least. She's also rather slow to catch on. And this doctor... he's like a petulant child. While that could be charming if it were done right, it just isn't. Mostly because of the interplay between the companion and the doctor.

I just watched an episode related to abortion. I mean... this could have been a great episode. If Clara had for one second used her brain and understood that the Doctor COULDN'T tell her what choice to make because it wasn't his planet, it was up to humanity to decide. Amy, Rose, etc, all picked up on stuff fairly easily but Clara is like pulling teeth.

And I don't care what's going on in her personal life. I don't care about her romances, or the fact that she's a school teacher (who spends alot of time whining about going out with the doctor, then does it anyway. She obviously doesn't want to be there, so why is she?), or anything else for that matter.

I want to go on adventures with the doctor, not hear more whining from Clara.

It's time to move on to a new companion. Maybe one that's a little brighter.

XCashier
10-09-2014, 05:26 PM
I really honestly don't like Clara at all and they seem to be obsessed with her. And their relationship to each other... I've never seen a companion that LESS likes the doctor and doesn't seem to understand him in the least. She's also rather slow to catch on. And this doctor... he's like a petulant child. While that could be charming if it were done right, it just isn't. Mostly because of the interplay between the companion and the doctor.
It reminds me a bit of the Sixth Doctor and Peri in the Original Series. He was an obnoxious and pushy know-it-all, she was a whiny, petulant brat. The next season, when they both mellowed out, it was much better, but really, they should've called a truce and started being nicer towards each other by the third episode.

Like Colin Baker before him, Peter Capaldi could be a fine Doctor if he had a better producer at the helm. Like John Nathan-Turner, Steven Moffat has worn out his welcome.

Moffat is not only going over his own old ideas, he's going over previous producers' old ideas. Sorry, but I think it's time for him to go. Doctor Who really needs a new producer with new ideas and better writers.

KatherineB
10-09-2014, 11:57 PM
I'm just sick of super-special companions and the fact that the Doctor doesn't seem to care about humanity unless they're special or a mystery in some way. What happened to normal people showing how fantastic they could be given the right circumstances? It seems to me that, if the Doctor were facing a situation like Jack did with the 456, only the 'victim' is his super-special companion, he would pick the companion and all of humanity would be sacrificed. We're only important if we are special in an extraordinary and beyond-human way. Not the message I would have thought people would want children to have, and not one I'm enjoying.

And I'm also tired of Clara treating the Doctor like a holiday camp, but then telling him off when he spends time on his own. Um, what is he meant to do when you decide your home life is more important than the opportunities he is offering you? I wish he would turn up with another companion and tell Clara "Thanks but no thanks" just like she does to him. Sadly it won't happen like that because Clara is clearly just as much Moffatt's Mary Sue as Amy was.

mjr
10-10-2014, 10:45 AM
I wish he would turn up with another companion and tell Clara "Thanks but no thanks" just like she does to him. Sadly it won't happen like that because Clara is clearly just as much Moffatt's Mary Sue as Amy was.

From what I understand, Clara is only supposed to be around until about Christmas. Then I believe The Doctor is supposed to get a new companion.

Jester
10-10-2014, 12:51 PM
The main difference, Katherine, being that Amy was a kickass badass. And Clara...isn't.

XCashier
10-10-2014, 03:27 PM
Sadly it won't happen like that because Clara is clearly just as much Moffatt's Mary Sue as Amy was.
River Song was the worst Mary Sue of them all.

firecat88
10-10-2014, 04:01 PM
My thoughts on Clara, especially recently: Oswin was better. >.>

Honestly, though, much like Once Upon A Time right now, my problem lies more with the way things are being written than with the characters themselves. Every episode so far feels like it's started in the middle of the story instead of the beginning. Of course, doing it that way isn't always a bad thing. I've seen it work quite well. However, that they're doing it literally every episode is weird to me and I feel like, because they've spent so little time doing a slow build-up to the action, it's the cause for so much of the exposition-heavy dialogue.

Kheldarson
10-10-2014, 06:51 PM
River Song was the worst Mary Sue of them all.

She was fine until her wedding....

Huh.

Jester
10-11-2014, 12:54 PM
River Song was the worst Mary Sue of them all.

Two questions:

1. What's a Mary Sue? I'm lost here.

2. What do you have against River Song? Just wondering....not trying to get ER contentious or anything.

My thoughts on Clara, especially recently: Oswin was better.

Agreed!

Kheldarson
10-11-2014, 02:30 PM
1. What's a Mary Sue? I'm lost here.

A Mary Sue, and her corollary Gary Stu, is a character who's impossibly perfect. She's more powerful than most, if not all, of the mains, everyone loves her, and the story focuses solely on her typically. She's also usually an author insert.

You usually see her in fanfic, but there are cases in original works. Like Bella Swan from Twilight.

KatherineB
10-11-2014, 09:06 PM
River Song was the worst Mary Sue of them all.

Agreed! I really can't stand any of Moff's female characters, and that includes Amy. Sally Sparrow was the only one I find tolerable, with Nancy second.

Kheldarson
10-12-2014, 03:57 AM
Tonight's episode... I just....just.....

*twitch*

CLARA WHAT THE HELL?!

KatherineB
10-12-2014, 10:04 AM
After seeing this last episode, the biggest problem for me this season has been the 'villains' - not one of them has been truly villainous. I think this is reflected in the fact that, for the first time since the reboot, we haven't had a single two-parter, and I'm sure it's because none of the villains could drag the drama over two episodes. The one exception might have been the Skovox Blitzer in Caretaker, but we were too busy watching the Doctor and Danny snipe at each other to see it. Presumably this is leading to some huge denouement with Missy and Heaven, but for now I'd like a villain who didn't repent of their actions in the end and turn out to be a damp squib. That way we might get a genuinely scary episode, rather than sitting there wondering "So what's going to be this guy's excuse for his actions?"Booooring!

Gizmo
10-12-2014, 10:34 AM
I second the Clara what the hell..... Anything for an adventure - or a paycheck....

I did notice a large amount of throwback lines in this episode which could have helped a LOT to get people on board with the season.... and yet they were totally lackluster and meh.

Frank Skinner was probably the best bit out of the whole episode.... wish he HAD taken the doctors request to join him on board!

Jester
10-13-2014, 11:05 AM
Thanks for the explanation, Kheldarson!

Like Bella Swan from Twilight.

While I am of course familiar with the existence of this character and the piece of work, do you really think I've read any of the books or seen any of the movies? After all, I'm over the age of 12. And I have a scrotum.

I really can't stand any of Moff's female characters, and that includes Amy.

Hey! Them's fighting words!

Kheldarson
10-13-2014, 12:01 PM
Thanks for the explanation, Kheldarson!

While I am of course familiar with the existence of this character and the piece of work, do you really think I've read any of the books or seen any of the movies? After all, I'm over the age of 12. And I have a scrotum.


It was the most mainstream and current example I could think of. Unless you're familiar with Elminster? :P

Ben_Who
10-13-2014, 09:30 PM
I thought of putting this on my blog.

One of the big problems with this year's crop of Doctor Who episodes is that they all center on morality. They're obsessed with whether or not going for Twelve was a good idea. The first episode makes it unclear whether the Doctor kicked a living android out of a balloon, in the second he asks if he's a good man in the middle of a huge conflict over what makes someone "good" or "bad," and so on.

Now, morality stories are just as valuable in the abstract as other kinds of stories - technical stories (some piece of engineering is failing/going critical/going on a rampage) and political stories (oh, look, the Daleks/Cybermen/Armpit Creatures of Segelius Three are invading again) just as examples. Doctor Who has never shied away from what it means to be "moral." Plus, the Venn Diagram has some overlap - "The Curse of Peladon," just as a top-of-the-head example, covered a political struggle and a moral crisis caused by a technological leap. So the idea of an entire season about whether or not the Doctor is "a good man" isn't, in isolation, a criticism concern.

The trouble is, of which "Kill the Moon" is a magnificent example, that anything the story has to handle outside the morality theme, it does really, really badly. Whatever "Kill the Moon" has to say about morality disintegrates the second you ask a question about physics. Or politics. Or engineering. Or biology or chemistry or literally anything else crucial to the story.

The only episodes that haven't suffered in some way are ones in which the morality play isn't as central. "Time Heist" is both morally focused and technically intriguing. So is "Listen." But "Robot of Sherwood" expects us to believe in that final arrow-flight because we're all too busy paying attention to Locksley and the Doctor bickering. "The Caretaker" spends so much time hyping the friction between Danny Pink and the Doctor that the actual threat looks more like a B-plot. It's too soon to decide what to make of "Mummy on the Orient Express."

To be fair, I'm still having a good time watching these shows. It's only on second viewings or with a bit of thought that the stories fall apart. There's no reason not to tune in the following week, same Doc-time, same Doc-channel. But part of me is hoping for a payoff for this morality question that's been impoverishing the season.

There are a lot of little gestures going unremarked, as well. All right, there's the Promised Land. But what's with the writing? There has been Gallifreyan writing (or, at least, a Gallifreyan, writing) in almost every episode, from the Doctor filling the entire bedroom with crazy in "Deep Breath" to his drawing in the sand in "Mummy on the Orient Express." His face was supposed to be a plot point - why the Peter Capaldi model has twice appeared in the Whoniverse was apparently meant to be a thing. Now, being that this is Moffatt, and his "big twists" tend to fall flat (still a bit disappointed in the Silence, frankly), I'm not entirely optimistic, but I think they keep the show worth watching, even when the writing goes completely south in the name of pursuing some bit of ethical trivia.

"Mummy on the Orient Express," with the Doctor's act of potential self-sacrifice, did advance the morality plot a bit, rather than just hanging a limp episode on it. I've always liked episodes in which the Doctor appears corrupted, even to the audience (c.f. always-hero Fourth Doctor "The Invasion of Time," which he spends most of the first two acts screaming his head off), but less so when the Doctor is morally ambiguous as a given (c.f. tried-to-strangle-his-companion, abusive, shouty Sixth Doctor "Mindwarp," where the same trick just comes across as cree-eepy).

I don't want to tell Moffatt how to do his job, but it might be more interesting if the Doctor were trying to solve a puzzle that the audience had already solved. Then he wouldn't so much need redemption as convincing.

KatherineB
10-15-2014, 09:20 AM
Hey! Them's fighting words!

*lol* This far away, I think I'm safe.

His face was supposed to be a plot point - why the Peter Capaldi model has twice appeared in the Whoniverse was apparently meant to be a thing. Now, being that this is Moffatt, and his "big twists" tend to fall flat (still a bit disappointed in the Silence, frankly), I'm not entirely optimistic, but I think they keep the show worth watching, even when the writing goes completely south in the name of pursuing some bit of ethical trivia.

"Mummy on the Orient Express," with the Doctor's act of potential self-sacrifice, did advance the morality plot a bit, rather than just hanging a limp episode on it. [...]

I don't want to tell Moffatt how to do his job, but it might be more interesting if the Doctor were trying to solve a puzzle that the audience had already solved. Then he wouldn't so much need redemption as convincing.

Ben, I really like the points you make here and I agree with you. I am particularly concerned how they will address the issue of Capaldi's former role(s) and I almost wish they would just get on with it. I have to wonder why it's taking so long to address - apart from the fact that, as far as Moff is concerned, the only episodes or references he is willing to acknowledge from S1-4 are his own episodes. He almost seems to be hoping that, if he doesn't reference the rest, we'll forget them.

And I would have loved the Doctor's self-sacrifice more if he hadn't pulled a very similar stunt in Time Heist, risking losing his mind to the Teller. It felt a bit recycled to me: having the Doctor facing a grave danger, digging up references to his past which he chokes out - and then snapping out of it at the very last second. I am at least grateful to see the Doctor being the one to save the day again, which we seemed to lose during a lot of Eleven's era, but I wish we could find at least semi-original ways for him to do it.

Moirae
10-16-2014, 02:56 AM
I'm having a hard time dealing with the fact that the doctor almost seems like a secondary character. Just a way for clara to get into problems and she can't figure out how to get out of them. Previous companions seem to at least have some kind of idea how to do things by this point of being the doctors companion. She just doesn't. Yet she's the focus of almost all these stories.

I've disappointed in this season.

My husband and I have been recording the episodes to watch later. To be honest, it's Wednesday and we still haven't watched last weekends episode. We will probably watch at some point but I'm really tired of the focus on Clara and all her whining.

Gizmo
10-16-2014, 06:01 AM
Moirae? the last episode won't help with that feeling about Clara..... its worth watching because as a story - whilst its not up to Dr Who standard for me - its a decent story idea.

KatherineB
10-16-2014, 09:49 AM
Actually, I felt you could skip all of the conversations just between Clara and the Doctor and you wouldn't miss much. Fast-forward through those and stop as soon as the Doctor is around other people.

Kheldarson
10-19-2014, 01:22 PM
So last night's episode was pretty decent. I thought the monster was rather brilliant, the effects were fascinating, and when we were focused on the adventure, it was fun!

Just too bad it kept reminding me of better plot points (Doctor Donna) and had to bring in Clara's relationship drama; although yay for calling her out on her lying!

Both curious and disappointed with the Missy reference. Do we really need another creepy woman in black manipulating our female lead?

Jester
10-19-2014, 04:54 PM
I have been very harshly critical of this season, and I believe with good reason. But I'll say it here without reservation: the latest episode was really, really good. A damn shame we had to be this far into the season for a truly brilliant Doctor Who-esque episode, but I'll give the show props...this one kicked it. Hard. Sure, one could find some minor quibbles, but you could do that with almost any episode from any season with any Doctor. This episode, this story, this plot, this writing, this acting, these effects....this lived up to what we expect from Doctor Who.

About damn time!

Gizmo
10-19-2014, 05:36 PM
I did like it and the story and methods were.... like old Dr Who. before the current silliness that runs around Clara's life.

And actually... its almost like the writer turned on Clara. Almost like at the end it was like "look I know you are a school teacher and you just saved us but you are NOT getting a damn merit award.... grow up..."

The Missy thing better be something good when they DO reveal it....

mjr
10-20-2014, 01:10 AM
This episode, this story, this plot, this writing, this acting, these effects....this lived up to what we expect from Doctor Who.

About damn time!

Notice that Moffatt didn't write it...

Bardmaiden
10-20-2014, 04:38 PM
My partner works for the railway and listed about ten things that were wrong with the trains...and that was only on the first viewing :lol:

KabeRinnaul
10-21-2014, 05:22 AM
This actually was probably the best episode thus far this season. My only real complaints were any times where Clara's personal drama became the focus, and that freaking fixation on "not a good person" we've been harping on since Matt Smith's second season.

On that, I've realized one of my major problems with the current season.

It feels like an anime filler arc.

Hear me out.

The biggest source of The Doctor's angst for the entire modern series has been the destruction of Gallifrey. It was the point where he felt he crossed the line. He chose the lesser of two evils, but even that lesser evil was unforgivable. During Day of the Doctor, we discovered that the Doctor never actually destroyed it. Afterwards, he even gets confirmation that Gallifrey survives the Time War.

Part of what made Day of the Doctor so exciting (beyond the multi-doctor crossover and three excellent actors who played off of one another very well) was that is suggested a new direction and new energy for the show. The Eleventh Doctor remembers the events of the episode. His greatest emotional burden has been lifted, and he knows Gallifrey is out there. In fact, the final monologue practically says outright that his search for it will be the new plot focus:

That's not true. Not any more. I have a new destination. My journey is the same as yours, the same as anyone's. It's taken me so many years, so many lifetimes, but at last I know where I'm going, where I've always been going. Home... the long way round.

And after all these suggestions of new energy, new direction, guilt absolved, and a goal ahead...

We ignore all of it.

We drop the whole idea.

Instead, we get a season with an older, more haggard Doctor, who's still carrying all of the baggage, but lashing out over it now. Instead of a new adventure, we have one callback after another. And instead of chasing after Gallifrey, we're watching a companion who's overstaying her welcome work out her personal relationship drama.

It's like we were told what the new adventure will be, but then they just started putting it off and mining old episodes for whatever ideas they could get to pad out some time.

You know. Filler. Exactly what anime does when the show gets ahead of the manga and they need to play catch-up for a while.

gremcint
10-21-2014, 05:57 AM
I thought this episode was great, we got to see clara get into the mind of the doctor a bit and see what it's like when she has to manage everybody and save the day while having someone nag them along. I loved the doctor doing that little dance at one point and anything with the tiny tardis was awesome especially the sledge hammer. I think the comment at the end is more the doctor doesn't want clara to become him. However I am really glad to have an episode where the doctor doesn't make fun of Clara. I mean there's always been playful barbs and banter between doctor and companion but every single episode this season had a shot at how Clara looks and it was getting very old for me. Also Tardis siege mode looks like the pandorica to me.

Moirae
10-27-2014, 12:53 AM
So I finally caught up on the Dr Who episodes having missed the last three as they aired. Finally, as we near the end of Clara's time with the doctor, we are beginning to see the character that was originally promised in her first three episodes. That of a clever, intelligent, and strong woman willing to take a risk instead of spending all her time whining. Of course, it took until Flatline to see it again. Its a pity they couldn't seem to figure it out before now.

Gizmo
10-27-2014, 10:31 AM
Latest episode (Forest)...... um, yeah, I was actively browsing on other pages and just letting it play in the background.

Meh.

Jetfire
10-27-2014, 02:26 PM
Very Meh. I agree with the post above that this season feels like an Anime filler arc. Not much is going on, and even the hints of the overall arc seem too hidden to really be interesting. It'll take a damn good wrap up to pull this season together IMO.

As for the forest ep, it had so much potential, and just fell flat on its face.

* The trees in general were a great idea.
* Catching the Doctor by surprise? Also a fun concept.
* Sonic not working on trees? Great call back and works fine for the story.
* Even the Trees protecting the Earth from the sun flare; it's wonky Who-Science, but I'll go with it.

Everything else about the episode? Epic fail.

The kids were annoying; Pink and Clara are gunning for the Worst Teachers Evah Awards, and HOW the plot was solved was just off.

I think the main problem was that the main plot, or at least the most interesting plot (what the trees were doing/how they were doing it) was shoved to the background for the Clara/Pink/Doctor triangle, and further pushed back by the kids. It was like you were trying to look around Clara and Pink to try and see what was going on in general.

The few high points of the ep dealt with the actual interesting plot; the Doctor trying to figure out what the Trees were doing, Maebve hearing voices and pointing out she knew/heard the flare coming and getting that across to the Doctor, etc....

A shame this episode got squished in after two great to good eps and what looks like a good ep coming. (As some commenters on another board put it, the most interesting thing about this episode was the "Coming Next Week" promo.)

Jester
10-28-2014, 05:40 AM
I liked this episode, but I definitely did not love it. Like the last couple, it felt a bit more like Doctor Who, with the Doctor generally ahead of everyone else, but sometimes even ahead of (or behind) himself.

Clara was very good in this episode, though Danny pointed out her shirking of her teacher responsibilities.

One small problem I had was that I, Mr. Oblivious, knew what the trees were there for early on. It seems very obvious to me that they were there to protect in some way, and I even had an idea that it would be the extra oxygen to burn off the solar flare. And I'm not a botanist, nor do I usually see where these episodes are going.

One GIANT problem I had with this episode was the Doctor's attitude near the end. When all seemed lost, Nine, Ten, and Eleven, in different ways, would all be banging their head against the wall trying to figure it out, yelling, "Think! Think! Think!" Or "What am I missing?" or some such. Twelve? He just basically gave up, said "Sorry, can't help--who wants to go watch your planet get destroyed?" And it wasn't until he had given up, and the piddly humans had gone away to die with their families that suddenly it became clear to him, by chance, not by effort of mental will.

Say what you will about the Eccleston, Tennant, or Smith eras, but can you picture any of them doing that, ever? I can't. Not from the joyous Time Lord who shouted with glee that, "Everyone lives, Rose! Just this one time, everyone lives!" Not from the defiant Time Lord who barked, "I'm the Doctor. I'm a Time Lord. I'm from the planet Gallifrey in the Constellation of Kasterborous. I'm 903 years old and I'm the man who is gonna save your lives and all 6 billion people on the planet below. You got a problem with that?" Not from the angry Time Lord who with quiet but undeniable authority and fury threatened the Atraxi with "Hello. I'm The Doctor. Basically...run.

It is as River Song predicted: the Doctor rose to his greatest heights, as evidenced by the hoopla and insanity surrounding the changeover, and now he is falling further than that. This is NOT my Doctor.

Moirae
10-28-2014, 12:27 PM
This last episode? It was "The Happening". Meh. It wasn't a good movie and wasn't a good tv show either.

Getting kind of sick of the "riding along with the companion" when the show is supposed to be about Dr Who. The two episodes before this one were good.

Shangri-laschild
10-28-2014, 03:25 PM
If Capaldi's main difference from previous Doctors is supposed to be that he's willing to let people be killed, I may start throwing things >.<

I wouldn't say this is new to this doctor. I've been rewatching through the Smith seasons (have to wait on the previous seasons because I'm supposed to watch them with someone) and in the episodes with the dinosaurs in space, he switched things so that the missiles were tracking the bad guy's ship.

I'm rather disappointed with this doctor and with the intense focus on Clara's life.

From what I understand, Clara is only supposed to be around until about Christmas. Then I believe The Doctor is supposed to get a new companion.

I would guess that there is all the focus on her life because she is leaving. There was a lot more focus on Rory and Amy's life before they left. They might not be doing a very good job showing Clara's life but that might be the reason.

With rewatching through, I had an interesting moment of recognizing something. The garden that we see Missy in at the end of Deep Breath is the same one from when Amy is stuck in Two Streams. Looked it up and it's not the first time that garden has been used. https://welldidyouevah.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/doctor-who-season-8-episode-1-deep-breath/ Not sure if that will come into play or if it's just a garden they reused.

I have noticed that there is a lot of comments from the doctor about things seeming familiar or him trying to remember things. It didn't start this season either, it seems to have started around when Clara was brought in and increased a lot more this season.

I do wonder if him not dying where his grave was supposed to be and the whole outcome at Trenzalor changing as well as the being gifted a regeneration is meant to have had an effect on him. He didn't kill the Timelords, but he can't exactly save them at the moment either. A lot of things that could come into play but might not. It definitely does seem to be a lot of confusing stuff together and whether it's the writers or the actors (possibly both) I'd say the new doctor and Clara just don't work well together and honestly I liked Clara so it's not that. Hopefully the show figures itself out soon or actually starts making things make sense in whatever is planned with the overall story line.

strawbabies
10-28-2014, 04:44 PM
I don't have anything particularly insightful to say, but I absolutely hated the last two episodes.

I'm also sick and tired of them putting Clara's stupid ass students on the show. They're obnoxious. Doctor Who takes place in the same universe as Torchwood, and frankly, I wouldn't have been upset with those kids being handed over to the aliens in Children of Earth.

Kheldarson
10-28-2014, 09:38 PM
Just watched it. Got rather bored during it. Mostly because of Clara and Danny.

But when did the Doctor become so blasť about letting folks on the Tardis?

And him giving up was disappointing.

Just meh all around.

Kheldarson
11-02-2014, 01:03 AM
So who called that Missy was the Master?

Cuz you just won a prize.

Not sure if I completely buy the twist on the Cybermen, but I'll go with it.

Also. How'd the hell the Master get out of the time lock?

gremcint
11-02-2014, 01:11 AM
I picked up on the cybermen from the symbols on the doors, and then clued into the dark water bit a few minutes before the reveal which was neat. I would actually rather they brought back either the Rani or Romana or something like that rather than the master. Well the master controlling an army of cybermen it kind of reminds me of both of his previous plans (converting humans). I really wish they had done more to build her up over the season because I just don't really feel that much menace from her.

As for the genderchanging, I'm fine with it depending on how they handle it. My biggest issue with the female doctor theories going around last year was that I don't the writing team could be trusted to handle it well.

KabeRinnaul
11-02-2014, 07:01 AM
Also. How'd the hell the Master get out of the time lock?

We found this out later, but for anyone else who's wondering:

Go rewatch "Day of the Doctor", the anniversary special.

You should do this because it was wonderful, but also because it answers this question.

After the three Doctors and Clara exit the stasis cube painting in the vault, a woman's hand grabs the frame from the inside. It doesn't belong to Rose/the Moment/Bad Wolf, and Clara is too far away. Someone else followed them out.

mjr
11-02-2014, 11:13 AM
Ok, my wife and I are a bit confused about a few things about the episode last night. If someone could help us out (either here or through PM) that would be great...

1. What's the deal with them "feeling" temperature? I don't know who he was, but the guy told Danny that his body could feel temperature changes in the "Nethersphere" even though he was dead. Therefore, if he were on a table at a morgue, he would feel cold (which he did). So it follows that if he were to be cremated, he would feel that burning as intense pain.

2. Missy said something about "saving" the consciousness (or something like that) and "upgrading" the body. Why would she need to save the consciousness?

3. I'm not entirely sure why Missy would align with the Cybermen. I don't know enough about the series, I suppose, to see why this would make sense.

4. Were the Cybermen going out to collect the already dead, or to kill more people? Missy made some sort of statement that "the dead outnumber the living".

5. How could Missy take over the afterlife? Unless the dead aren't really dead...

Kheldarson
11-02-2014, 12:42 PM
Ok, my wife and I are a bit confused about a few things about the episode last night. If someone could help us out (either here or through PM) that would be great...

1. What's the deal with them "feeling" temperature? I don't know who he was, but the guy told Danny that his body could feel temperature changes in the "Nethersphere" even though he was dead. Therefore, if he were on a table at a morgue, he would feel cold (which he did). So it follows that if he were to be cremated, he would feel that burning as intense pain.

Well, what you went on to explain is the point. You feel what your body is feeling, therefore you can be made to suffer even after death. I imagine it's part of how they convince the souls to delete their personalities and join the Cybermen willingly.

2. Missy said something about "saving" the consciousness (or something like that) and "upgrading" the body. Why would she need to save the consciousness?

Because Cybermen are androids. They're humans who have "improved" themselves by cutting away emotions and replacing a majority of themselves with metal. You have to have a body and a consciousness to become a Cyberman.

3. I'm not entirely sure why Missy would align with the Cybermen. I don't know enough about the series, I suppose, to see why this would make sense.

The Master is usually out to conquer and rule planets. If he/she is in control of the hive mind, then the Cybermen become the perfect enforcement of her rule.

4. Were the Cybermen going out to collect the already dead, or to kill more people? Missy made some sort of statement that "the dead outnumber the living".

Probably more the latter. Remember that you need a consciousness to work the Cyber body. But who knows how long Missy has been at this plot. That's what she probably meant by "dead outnumber the living".

5. How could Missy take over the afterlife? Unless the dead aren't really dead...

That's a possibility. It's also possible that Time Lord tech allows her to catch the last moment of consciousness. Don't know.

mjr
11-02-2014, 06:29 PM
I imagine it's part of how they convince the souls to delete their personalities and join the Cybermen willingly.


But wouldn't the same thing apply? I mean, if the soul exists and the personality is deleted, is it the personality or the soul that's tied to the body?


Because Cybermen are androids. They're humans who have "improved" themselves by cutting away emotions and replacing a majority of themselves with metal. You have to have a body and a consciousness to become a Cyberman.


So they're sort of a cross between Data and the Borg?

Kheldarson
11-02-2014, 06:40 PM
But wouldn't the same thing apply? I mean, if the soul exists and the personality is deleted, is it the personality or the soul that's tied to the body?

It's more a separation between intellect and emotion. The Cybermen are all about reason and logic, viewing emotions as something that holds yo back from perfection. Beyond that, that's more existential than I want to get right now.

So they're sort of a cross between Data and the Borg?

More like the Borg were based on them. Borg appeared in 1989. Cybermen have been around since 1966. And to get it out if the way, the Cylons first appeared in 1978.

KatherineB
11-02-2014, 10:36 PM
It's also possible that Time Lord tech allows her to catch the last moment of consciousness.

The Matrix existed on Gallifrey to do exactly that. We saw in The Deadly Assassin (Fourth Doctor) how people's knowledge would be extracted. This is a transcript from the scene where the audience learns about it first:

SPANDRELL [Castellan of the Chancellery Guard on Gallifrey]: What is the Master like on mathematics?
DOCTOR: He's brilliant, absolutely brilliant. He's almost up to my standard. What's that?
ENGIN [works in the Gallifreyan archives]: The APC control.
DOCTOR: APC?
ENGIN: Amplified Panatropic Computations.
DOCTOR: Brain cells.
ENGIN: Yes. Trillions of electrochemical cells in a continuous matrix. The cells are the repository of departed Time Lords. At the moment of death, an electrical scan is made of the brain pattern and these millions of impulses are immediately transferred to the...
DOCTOR: Shush. I understand the theory. What's the function?
ENGIN: Well, to monitor life in the Capitol. We use all this combined knowledge and experience to predict future developments.

The Doctor is then sent into the Matrix, which, IMHO, is some of Tom Baker's best acting. If you haven't seen that series, I highly recommend it as we see Gallifrey, the Time Lords, and a brilliant storyline.

The Matrix appears again in Trial of a Time Lord and a variety of other stories in different forms (comics, prose, audio) so it's a well-used concept.

Kheldarson
11-02-2014, 10:39 PM
I'm not really up on classic Who, so thanks for the info :D I'll see if I can find that story though!

KatherineB
11-02-2014, 10:39 PM
You're welcome! It's definitely my favourite Baker story!

Jester
11-03-2014, 02:29 AM
At first I thought this was going to be a lame rehash of when Rose attempted to go back and save her father. And then, amazingly, Moffat (who did write this one) turned the whole thing on its head and gave us what we saw. Personally, I think it was one of the strongest episodes of this season, though of course it did not have its flaws.

As for the Cybermen, I knew they'd be involved the moment The Doctor, Clara, and Dr. Chang first walked through those doors, because the Cyberman "eye" was the window of the door. And let's face it, subtlety has not really been a strong suit for Moffat. Still, if I, Mr. Oblivious, get something that quickly, you need to up your game.

Still, all in all, this episode was strong. Can't wait for the next one.

But who knows how long Missy has been at this plot. That's what she probably meant by "dead outnumber the living".

Regardless of how long she has been at this, it's a simply fact of history that, on Earth, those who have lived and died vastly outnumber those who are alive and still living.

Soulstealer
11-03-2014, 02:50 AM
I enjoyed this episode if only for giving evidence to so many Master/Doctor fanfictions over the years. And she did a great job capturing the madness I think of that the Master is supposed to have.

mjr
11-03-2014, 10:36 AM
It's more a separation between intellect and emotion. The Cybermen are all about reason and logic, viewing emotions as something that holds yo back from perfection. Beyond that, that's more existential than I want to get right now.


Another question from the episode...

The Doctor felt Missy's heartbeat...wouldn't he have immediately noticed that she had TWO hearts, and was therefore Gallifreyan and a Time Lady? It seems like that's something the Doctor would notice...

Kheldarson
11-03-2014, 11:15 AM
Another question from the episode...

The Doctor felt Missy's heartbeat...wouldn't he have immediately noticed that she had TWO hearts, and was therefore Gallifreyan and a Time Lady? It seems like that's something the Doctor would notice...

It should be, which is why Missy reemphasized the point when she revealed herself.

But...the Doctor has thought of himself as the last of his race for centuries. The last time he physically encountered his race, he sealed them all away. And she presented herself as being a robot, initially. It's a bit reasonable to think that he ignored the evidence since it was nigh impossible to be true.

gremcint
11-03-2014, 08:40 PM
here's the thing about the painting theory, I thought the 3d paintings were still just paintings, not the actual events, kind of like a pocket dimension, so it's not the actual galifrey but just a picture they hid in. I may be totally wrong.

I know at the end what they do with the planet but that was a case of converting the planet using that many tardises to shrink the planet and shove it in a pocket dimension using the painting thing as an inspiration. I don't know what to think now that I look at it, they need to explain it better.

KhirasHY
11-04-2014, 12:15 PM
My thoughts:

1) I want the music from Clara's threat scene just after the opening credits. Easily one of the best, and most emotional pieces that Ian Gold has written for the new series.

2) Back after episode 2 or 3 of this season, my roommate and I were talking about DW, and I mentioned how they always enjoyed bringing back old enemies as the nemesis. I specifically mentioned that Missy was due back in the next couple years. Damn I'm good. ;)

3) Cybermen...well, hopefully they use them well. With luck they will be more like Gaimen's cybermen (see Nightmare in Silver) than the crappy Cybermen of past seasons.

4) Seeing the kid in the ipad at the end, does he know that something is wrong? I assume he will stop Danny from pressing the button...do the dead know what's happening in some way?

Jester
11-04-2014, 01:16 PM
Easily one of the best, and most emotional pieces that Ian Gold has written for the new series.

Unless I missed something major, I'm pretty sure you mean Murray Gold. Ian Gold is a retired NFL football player.

KabeRinnaul
11-04-2014, 09:20 PM
3) Cybermen...well, hopefully they use them well. With luck they will be more like Gaimen's cybermen (see Nightmare in Silver) than the crappy Cybermen of past seasons.

No plz. I hated the new Cybermen. They ceased to be intimidating and became so over-the-top powerful that it was silly. It felt like the episode was written by an overexcited teenage fan of the Cybermen out to prove that no, they could so beat the Daleks.

wolfie
11-05-2014, 03:06 AM
Unless I missed something major, I'm pretty sure you mean Murray Gold. Ian Gold is a retired NFL football player.

At least that's not as bad as another name mixup. A few years ago, on Martin Luther King day, one town was going to unveil a plaque celebrating the achievements of James Earl Jones (famous African-American actor, one of his roles being the voice of Darth Vader in the original Star Wars). When the plaque was unveiled, the name on it was James Earl Ray (guy who assassinated MLK). Oops!

Gizmo
11-05-2014, 09:15 AM
OK, its been bugging me since I watched the episode.

The dead "feel" what is done to their bodies. Including cremation, the one who "donated his body to science" etc. Yet.... the cybermen have organic skeletons.

So are the bodies in two places at once? Do they manage to stop the cremations? Or are the organic skeletons not those of the original bodies?

Kheldarson
11-05-2014, 10:44 AM
OK, its been bugging me since I watched the episode.

The dead "feel" what is done to their bodies. Including cremation, the one who "donated his body to science" etc. Yet.... the cybermen have organic skeletons.

So are the bodies in two places at once? Do they manage to stop the cremations? Or are the organic skeletons not those of the original bodies?

Not entirely sure. One presumes that the Cybermen we've seen are those who donated to the cause (or paid for the privilege). It's possible that after agreeing to the mind wipe Missy saves the body. It's also possible that she can match the now blank souls/consciousnesses with any body, which might be another meaning to her "dead outnumber the living" comment. We haven't been given enough information there.

KhirasHY
11-06-2014, 01:05 AM
Unless I missed something major, I'm pretty sure you mean Murray Gold. Ian Gold is a retired NFL football player.

Derp, yeah, I was a bit tired and drunk when I wrote that :p

Edit: Also, the Doctor mentions that the people who are in the mausoleum are those rich enough to have paid for it. Meanwhile, the Nethersphere could easily be catching people from all over the country/world as they die, so naturally there would be far too many to fit in one building. Quite a few of those bodies would be in morgues, crematoriums, and...well, for at lease one unfortunate guy, in a laboratory.

Shangri-laschild
11-07-2014, 07:44 PM
The Doctor felt Missy's heartbeat...wouldn't he have immediately noticed that she had TWO hearts, and was therefore Gallifreyan and a Time Lady? It seems like that's something the Doctor would notice...

There have been plenty of times when the Doctor misses very obvious stuff. Like when Rory came back and he stood there talking to Rory the Roman about how he was sure he was missing something obvious. He seems to take in lots of information and then slowly process it as he explores, this time being no different.

here's the thing about the painting theory, I thought the 3d paintings were still just paintings, not the actual events, kind of like a pocket dimension, so it's not the actual galifrey but just a picture they hid in. I may be totally wrong.

Well, those aliens were able to come out of the paintings near the beginning of that episode.

OK, its been bugging me since I watched the episode.

The dead "feel" what is done to their bodies. Including cremation, the one who "donated his body to science" etc. Yet.... the cybermen have organic skeletons.

So are the bodies in two places at once? Do they manage to stop the cremations? Or are the organic skeletons not those of the original bodies?

I'm guessing that you keep feeling what your body feels until you press the disconnect button at which point you are free game to become a cyberman. And the bodies may not even get destroyed, it could just be the people making them think they are feeling like they are burning. A lie to get them to disconnect.

Moirae
11-09-2014, 05:19 AM
Oddly, my husband and I felt no desire to watch this or the last episode. We used to drop what we were doing to watch Dr Who but this season has been so monumentally disappointing that we could really care less.

smileyeagle1021
11-09-2014, 02:22 PM
OK, its been bugging me since I watched the episode.

The dead "feel" what is done to their bodies. Including cremation, the one who "donated his body to science" etc. Yet.... the cybermen have organic skeletons.

So are the bodies in two places at once? Do they manage to stop the cremations? Or are the organic skeletons not those of the original bodies?

I think that is more of a ploy of the nethersphere... tell people that horrible things will happen to them, throw in some good screams for measure, make them start feeling it themselves, all very plausible stuff, but here, we have a handy delete button, press it and all your problems go away (and you become a more perfect cyberman in the process).

The person I feel bad for though is the kid. First he got shot by Danny and was sent to the nethersphere, then Danny sacrificed himself so the kid could come back... but come back to what? Does anyone honestly believe his family will accept him? I'm not that familiar with Afghanistan's culture, but I'd be willing to bet that they don't take kindly to the dead walking through the door. I could see them seeing the child as some kind of zombie or demon or other abomination and at best shunning him at worst killing him again. It is a very Danny thing to do, giving up his third chance to give a second chance to the person he denied a first chance to, but honestly the only way I see this being a happy ending is Clara adopting the child so that he can get a true second chance and she can be close to the best reminder there is of who Danny Pink was.

strawbabies
11-10-2014, 01:52 AM
So, is Clara already pregnant, or is Orson never going to exist?

Moirae
11-10-2014, 02:17 AM
strawbabies, not according to the story. No, I didn't watch it, but they have the whole synopsis on wikipedia. All I can say is... wth? It makes no sense. Plot holes is putting it lightly.

Kheldarson
11-10-2014, 02:20 AM
Who's betting that Danny gets another chance at Christmas?

Who'll be rage quitting at that point with me?

KatherineB
11-10-2014, 02:26 AM
I really want Danny to be gone for good as I'm so sick of the heroic gestures in Moffatt-era that don't turn in to anything because the person is only dead for five seconds.

Kheldarson
11-10-2014, 02:34 AM
Same for me, but 1) Moffatt's a hack who can't resist the cheap answer, and 2) Clara's not pregnant.

Kara
11-10-2014, 10:10 AM
Just watched the last 4 episodes, so now I'm all caught up. Clara could be pregnant already. It wouldn't make sense with all the danger she put herself in during the last 2 episodes (like potentially stranding herself in an active volcano), but that's Moffatt for you. My fiancee went back and paused it at a couple of points in the beginning of Dark Water because she thought she saw something about Missy on one of Clara's post-its, but she saw it wrong. I did notice that one of them said "Three Months," and another said "Just Say It." It would make sense that she was more worked up about making a point to let Danny know she'd never tell anyone else she loved them because they were having a baby (the big, dramatic "I love you" speech was just the opening act). And why she went to near-psychotic lengths to try to force the Doctor to bring him back. Of course, she could have mentioned it to Danny when they were saying goodbye, but if she came right out and said it the fandom would have nothing to drive them crazy with speculation for the next 6 weeks.

I was most disappointed with how they went to all the trouble to surprise us with Missy's identity (though it wasn't hard figure out Missy=>Mistress=>Master) and then not infuriate me by having the Master sort of redeemed in End of Time only to come back and be evil just because but rather make her a sympathetic psychopath, only to take her out with a surprise death ray.

Season 8 had its ups and downs like all seasons, but overall I liked it.

Moirae
11-10-2014, 11:33 AM
Who's betting that Danny gets another chance at Christmas?

Who'll be rage quitting at that point with me?

I can't rage quit this show, but drift away? Yes, that I can do. This seasons is so lacking, it isn't even funny. I miss "duh duh duh duh", or the subtle hints that we're all missing like the doctor telling Amy that she must remember what she was told when she was 7 and how most of us missed that he was wearing his jacket after having removed it earlier in that episode as a prelude to things to come. I miss how everything gets tied together in the final episode. This past season was a bunch of one off's with a theme that we've seen a dozen times in the new who.

Gizmo
11-10-2014, 07:00 PM
She ain't pregnant. And the idiot, sorry, Danny will be back. (although Clara having IVF somehow would be a funny story line but it isn't hacky enough for Moffat.

After all the soldier bashing this season I think Moffat thinks he made up for it or justified it in this episode. Um, not for me. Just made it worse for me.

And they still didn't explain if they are using the organic bodies as a extreme prop or if they are actually needed for the cybermen and why people that were cremated could be cybermen.... lol.

KatherineB
11-10-2014, 10:36 PM
(although Clara having IVF somehow would be a funny story line but it isn't hacky enough for Moffat.

I'm trying to imagine how could you do IVF with a cyberman. No visible genitalia. (Not to mention the whole "blown up to catch the wet clouds on fire" thing.)

KabeRinnaul
11-11-2014, 06:26 AM
After all the soldier bashing this season I think Moffat thinks he made up for it or justified it in this episode. Um, not for me. Just made it worse for me.

Gah, the whole thing with Danny and the Doctor about him being an officer who'd never get his hands dirty.

Seriously, this is supposed to be the darker, more violent Doctor. He's listening to this jackass rant about things that would have been enough for the last two to take a swing at you, and they were supposed to be the nice ones. I spent that whole scene waiting for the Doctor to shout him down and point out all the times he did have to get his hands dirty over the past 1500 years, and how much that's worn him down.

Everything this season has done has only served to make me miss Tennant and Smith more.

KhirasHY
11-11-2014, 02:45 PM
Oddly, I was kinda the opposite. I liked that scene with Danny and the Doctor a lot ;) I've also liked the less "happy" turn of this version...I watched that scene where he goes to Gallifrey probably a dozen times and got goosebumps every time.

To me, it felt like he realized, in that moment of looking at his world, that the Mistress was right when she talked about that army...

gremcint
11-11-2014, 02:54 PM
I thought the planet wasn't there and he lied.

Also as the descendant, that could be just a possible future that may not happen now.

Kheldarson
11-11-2014, 03:26 PM
I thought the planet wasn't there and he lied.


Yeah. The Master/Mistress lied. Again. Hence Twelve's rage.

KhirasHY
11-11-2014, 04:26 PM
Heh I actually couldn't tell for sure...I thought they might be playing some kind of game by not showing it, like something awful had happened. Could be either way

Kheldarson
11-11-2014, 06:00 PM
Heh I actually couldn't tell for sure...I thought they might be playing some kind of game by not showing it, like something awful had happened. Could be either way

It's pretty obvious. Remember, we know that the two have been having pretty tense relationship issues. Which has included keeping things from one another. So we know Clara's lying for certain (Danny and I will be fine) because she doesn't want to upset him and/or get him reinvolved, which means the Doctor has to be lying because he doesn't want Clara to feel guilty leaving him for Danny.

smileyeagle1021
11-12-2014, 05:13 AM
I thought the planet wasn't there and he lied.

Also as the descendant, that could be just a possible future that may not happen now.

Yeah, they kind of explicitly did the time can be rewritten in The Hungry Earth when Rory dies and Amy says "he can't die here, I saw us on the hill"
Just because you saw the future doesn't mean it can't change.

I absolutely loved that scene between the two though at the end with both of them lying to each other for the sole reason that they each believed the others' lie... had either of them seen through the lie they could have both admitted the truth and gone off together to rebuild together. Especially when the Doctor finally does hug and that line "I don't like hugging, it is a way to hide each others' faces" For me, that had more impact than Rose Tyler's departure... not as much as 10's departure, but definitely more than Rose's.

gremcint
11-12-2014, 09:43 PM
I figured out who I want to run the show, Whoever ran farscape can take over. I can't think of a show that took more risks than that one, great female characters, a lovely variety of aliens, not on earth every 5 minutes. They trusted the audience could handle two different separate crichtons and it was awesome.

Gizmo
11-15-2014, 10:15 AM
Having just seen the Children in Need special trailer for Christmas..... *sigh*.
Nick Frost as Santa? And the "you didn't think your parents did it because they love you did you....?"

I know they are trying to paint Santa as a bad guy but seriously.... sod off.

KhirasHY
11-15-2014, 10:59 AM
The trailer made me think of the version of Santa from the Dresden Files.

Santa is a much bigger and more powerful faery than Toot, and I don't know his true name anyway. You'd never see me trying to nab Saint Nick in a magic circle even if I did. I don't think anyone has stones that big.

So, in some respects, Santa could actually be quite a terrifying being. ;)

Gizmo
11-15-2014, 02:50 PM
I actually wouldn't mind if they did do that and did it well. rather than the image given by the clip which is "he's a trashy rude lager lout who'll just be rude to you..." I know its only a short clip but didn't give me much hope. The shows been a little too... over Londonised... for my liking this season.

wolfie
11-15-2014, 08:51 PM
So, in some respects, Santa could actually be quite a terrifying being. ;)

Santa, or his counterpart? Has anyone else read the short story "Satan Claus" by David Gerrold, found in the anthology "Alternate Outlaws" edited by Mike Resnick?

Ben_Who
11-16-2014, 12:50 AM
The trailer made me think of the version of Santa from the Dresden Files.



So, in some respects, Santa could actually be quite a terrifying being. ;)

Pf. Red-faced twit knows everything about you and breaks into your house on the darkest night of the year. Scares the hell out of me.

Trouble is, Moffat's been kind of a jerk about his previews and trailers this season. It's one thing to have a misleading trailer, it's another thing to have your trailer imply a completely different story that might actually be better than the one you're watching. ("Clara Oswald doesn't exist!") He probably thinks he's being clever, too. "Oo, we'll get them talking on the interwebs and then pull the rug out from under 'em."

So I'm completely satisfied that the CiN clip showed nothing even remotely useful to anyone who might want to actually watch the show. It did not tease, it did not trail, it did not preview; I'd be surprised if that bit turned up in the finished episode at all, actually. Hell, it wasn't even all that interesting. I don't need to be sold on watching Doctor Who - it's kind of what I do - but if I were on the fence, there's nothing in what I just saw that would make up my mind one way or the other.

Jay 2K Winger
11-17-2014, 02:15 AM
The trailer made me think of the version of Santa from the Dresden Files.

So, in some respects, Santa could actually be quite a terrifying being. ;)

Considering who turns out to be Santa in the Dresden-verse, he absolutely IS potentially terrifying.

Shangri-laschild
11-19-2014, 01:54 PM
Why wasn't the kid turned into a Cyberman? It seems odd that the kid would be the one left at the end there with Danny when everyone else (Danny included) was turned into one.

Gizmo
11-19-2014, 06:35 PM
My thought would be that the kid hadn't given up his memories. Danny got past that one by being a pawn Missy could use against The Doctor and Clara.

gremcint
12-02-2014, 05:58 AM
you know what would have been neat? there are all these other claras running around thanks to her jumping into 11s time stream, why not have her run into one of them?

Moirae
12-02-2014, 11:26 AM
I just wish we could get past Clara and move on to the next companion. Since she's decided to stay, I won't be watching this next season.

Kheldarson
12-02-2014, 12:05 PM
I just wish we could get past Clara and move on to the next companion. Since she's decided to stay, I won't be watching this next season.

What? She's staying? Why???

dalesys
12-02-2014, 06:56 PM
What? She's staying? Why???
She didn't kill the fanbase... Yet?

Gizmo
12-02-2014, 08:49 PM
She was staying mid season however I still think she is going end of season. I think they basically knew they'd have the "spoiler" of her leaving and wanted to freak people out mid season. Also add another line to the her and danny story (her lying to him about still travelling with The Doctor) to make things even more emotional when he died.

I believe Christmas will still be her last episode.

But reading this article they are playing with us all on not telling us. Another article actually claims the actress DID change her mind and they had to write it back in but I doubt it...

http://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/scifi/doctor-learn-claras-fate-christmas-day.html

Moirae
12-03-2014, 12:03 AM
She said she was staying a couple days ago. Something about how she was enjoying working with Capaldi.

Gizmo
12-03-2014, 08:00 AM
She said she was staying a couple days ago. Something about how she was enjoying working with Capaldi.

*beats head against wall*. Just found the articles.

This actually does make me less likely to watch season 9 although I will give it ago...

Jester
12-03-2014, 12:43 PM
Am I the only one that has a bigger problem with Capaldi, and a much bigger problem with the writers, than with Clara?

gremcint
12-03-2014, 04:39 PM
I like Capaldi and Clara both, the writers are the problem and so is moffatt

I think we need more companions in the tardis, we can shift the focus to other characters to mix it up a bit for those who don't like them both.

Kara
12-06-2014, 05:01 PM
I loved Clara last year. If she's staying for the long haul, I want Souffle Girl back. If she's going to keep being what Moffatt thinks is the voice of the newer fans ("But you're so oooolllllld, you're not my Doctor, I don't know you who are, wah wah wah"), she needs to go.

Moirae
12-06-2014, 09:59 PM
The problem is that the doctor is her companion and its supposed to be the other way around. She spends alot of time complaining about how he is a disruption to her life. Yes, I want souffle girl back, we haven't seen her since the first two introduction episodes with her. Since then, she spends alot of time complaining. If she hates him so much, why doesn't she just say goodbye?

Soulstealer
12-08-2014, 10:16 PM
I can't get a good reading on Capadli, he's a good actor but the writing has been terrible for a while. It's hard to tell if he's a bad fit for the role or if it's the scripts. As for Clara, she's in the Moffat pattern he has for all women. Have them be independent at the beginning and suddenly decided to settle down and not have a personality.

Jester
12-10-2014, 02:43 PM
As for Clara, she's in the Moffat pattern he has for all women. Have them be independent at the beginning and suddenly decided to settle down and not have a personality.

And now you've put me in the unfortunate position of having to defend Moffat. You're gonna owe me a beer for this.

Forget Clara for a moment, let's look at the other women in the series since its been rebooted. And the reason I'm going back all the way to the robot is because I don't know precisely which women are Moffat's creations/responsibility and which aren't. So I've addressed, I believe, most of the major ones.

Rose Tyler: She didn't decide to settle down at all, she was basically forced to another plane. Abandoned by The Doctor, some would say. Never lost her personality, and even came back across to help on a few occasions. Rose does not fit the pattern you describe.

Jackie Tyler: She was never really independent, not in a strong personality sort of way, so she doesn't fit the pattern. And she didn't decide to settle down so much as she got reunited with her dead husband, after a fashion. But I can grant you that that is, in a way, settling down at the end.

Martha Jones: Very independent....pretty much always. She decided to stop traveling with The Doctor, but she never stopped having her personality, and the only suggestion that she settled down was the hint in the final Tennant episode that she ended up with Mickey....fighting aliens. Hardly the traditional "settling down." So she doesn't fit your pattern.

Donna Noble: She never stopped being Donna, for good or bad, even after The Doctor stripped her of h memory. Hardly fits the pattern.

Amy Pond: She was set to marry Rory even before The Doctor came back into her life the second time, and the first time as an adult. And their story is hardly the traditional settling down, either. They traveled with The Doctor until those travels took Rory from Amy, and she followed her love where many might not have. She never lost her personality, ever. Nope, no pattern here.

Dr. River Song: Independent and quirky from beginning to end, if we've truly seen her end. She settled down in the sense that she got married, but she married The Doctor. If that's what you define as settling down, I've clearly got a different idea of the phrase than you do. In no way fits this or just about any other pattern.

Even Harriet Jones doesn't fit your pattern. She was independent, though never fiercely so (like Rose or Amy), and her personality stayed mostly the same throughout her appearances, though of course she did have a big of a harder edge to her when she was the Prime Minister. And it would be an interesting argument to make her final appearance "settling down" in any way.

So....just which female characters WERE you talking about?

Moirae
12-11-2014, 11:48 PM
Thanks Jester. I think he wasn't watching the same show the rest of us have been. Until Clara, I have loved the show. Now I can't stand to watch it.

XCashier
12-12-2014, 02:30 AM
And the reason I'm going back all the way to the robot is because I don't know precisely which women are Moffat's creations/responsibility and which aren't.
Russell T. Davis was the forerunner of the reboot. Rose, Jackie, Martha and Donna were all his characters.

Jester
12-14-2014, 02:02 AM
So which female characters were Moffat's? Off the top of my head, I can only come up with Clara, Amy, and the majority of our time spent with the good Dr. Song.

gremcint
12-14-2014, 05:28 AM
there are some one offs like the girl from blink.

KatherineB
12-14-2014, 10:30 PM
Moff's other female characters who play major roles in his episodes:

Madame de Pompadour/Reinette (Girl in the Fireplace)
Sally Sparrow (Blink)
Kathy Nightingale (Blink)
Miss Evangelista (Library stories)
Jenny Flint
Madame Vastra
Abigail Pettigrew (A Christmas Carol)
Madge Arwell (The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe)
Lorna (A Good Man Goes to War)
Journey Blue (Into the Dalek)
Sabra (Time Heist)
Various incarnations of Cloara

And perhaps a controversial one - the Mistress. Feel free to argue that one to your heart's content. *g*

Kheldarson
12-26-2014, 02:26 AM
Christmas special. What the hell.

Rushed, made me feel horrid, and dear Lord, the ending.

Jester
12-26-2014, 10:25 AM
I'm going to respectfully disagree, as I thought the Christmas special was top notch. A bit predictable at times in the whole Inception dream-within-a-dream aspect, but overall, good writing, good acting, nice twists. I give it a definite thumbs up.

mjr
12-26-2014, 10:54 AM
Wait...so just how many "layers" of dreams were they in?? I think I counted at least 4.

And toward the end when they (SPOILER ALERT) were flying along with Santa, and The Doctor asked Clara if she believed in Santa, she said something like, "I've always believed in Santa, he just looks a little different to me." then hugs the Doctor...

Well, my wife and I kinda looked at each other and snickered there...

Kheldarson
12-26-2014, 11:48 AM
I'm going to respectfully disagree, as I thought the Christmas special was top notch. A bit predictable at times in the whole Inception dream-within-a-dream aspect, but overall, good writing, good acting, nice twists. I give it a definite thumbs up.

That's fine, but the plot twist was obvious from the beginning (he showed the faces. Why would yo do that?), Santa may have been acting well but was horribly mean which put me off immediately, and did we seriously have to crap on Clara's wish fulfillment immediately and that heavily?

I mean, I expect creepy from Doctor Who. I expect a low. But there's a triumphant high to match or surpass it usually. There wasn't one here.

And Clara's original leaving point was obvious as well.

Ben_Who
12-29-2014, 02:19 PM
That's fine, but the plot twist was obvious from the beginning (he showed the faces. Why would yo do that?), Santa may have been acting well but was horribly mean which put me off immediately, and did we seriously have to crap on Clara's wish fulfillment immediately and that heavily?

I mean, I expect creepy from Doctor Who. I expect a low. But there's a triumphant high to match or surpass it usually. There wasn't one here.

And Clara's original leaving point was obvious as well.

Here's one for you. See if you can guess which of the four other characters was slated to be her replacement. :)

I personally have nothing against Clara in the abstract, but dear God, she's had one foot out the door all season. I think she left the Doctor never to see him again at least five times. It might be that I'm not as comfortable with the idea of a "part-time companion" as I thought I was; at first it seemed clever that the Doctor's sidekick could hold a job and have a family and still pop off for adventure weekends, but now it just seems uncommitted and insecure, and it tends to tie the narrative down.

Kheldarson
12-29-2014, 06:12 PM
Here's one for you. See if you can guess which of the four other characters was slated to be her replacement. :)



I'd guess Shona. She's the only one given any screentime to develop a base personality.

KhirasHY
12-30-2014, 08:45 AM
I really enjoyed the special this year. And for anyone who tries to convince me otherwise, I am only going to say this in response: "Giant Cyberman in Victorian London."

This was much, much better.

gremcint
12-30-2014, 04:39 PM
the only part I didn't like was the doctor abandoning them as soon as he thought he was safe and that no one is dealing with the dream crab still on earth.

KatherineB
01-01-2015, 02:29 AM
the only part I didn't like was the doctor abandoning them as soon as he thought he was safe and that no one is dealing with the dream crab still on earth.

That's actually been my major issue with both Eleven and Twelve - they really only seem to care about the safety of their companions. The rest of the world can go to hell as long as those people they have decided are special are okay. Maybe it's selfish on my part, but I've always loved the thought that everyone matters to the Doctor, not just a few people who intrigue him for one reason or another.

That said, I did think this was the best Christmas special yet, although I would have loved it more if Clara hadn't been in it at all and we'd had a chance to get to know each of the other three base people in real life, particularly the one who died.