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fireheart
01-06-2015, 09:35 AM
I've promised my coaches that I'd avoid stirring up shit on this, but I need to vent.

So a little bit of explanation: Every local, state and national archery team that exists apart from one (the USA) uses a method of shooting called the Korean standard method. This is mostly because the Koreans are "meant" to be the best archers internationally. About 20 years ago, a Korean guy said "fuck that", left, made his own technique up and named it after himself, the KSL method. There is not a huge noticeable difference on the field, but when you're coaching and teaching others, the KSL method is much trickier for new archers to pick up. There's also the fact that the KSL method is NOT recognised by ANY archery governing body in the state (there's 3 main ones in this scenario: Archery NSW, Archery Australia and FITA [Federation of International Target Archery]) and it's not used by any other club except ours (the guy in question is the coach of the US team). THere are 3 levels of coaching: Level 1 has to be supervised by a Level 2 or 3 coach, Level 2 and 3 coaches can work solo. These coaching accreditations are NOT recognised in any way by the governing bodies.

Up until the end of last year, the president of the archery club the school runs at had no problem with my coaches being recognised as "official" coaches. Both of them are fully accredited coaches by the state and national governing bodies (ARchery NSW and Archery Australia). Neither of them are willing to use the KSL method because it's trickier to pick up for new archers, it tends to skip a lot of the fundamentals and puts more emphasis on "Target panic" instead of correct foundations and keeping things consistent. (my coach also will actually take the time to outfit everyone with the right equipment first rather than just turning them loose onto an archery supply store)

Apparently though, because my coaches are refusing to use the KSL method, the president has barred them from coaching at the club. They can both still shoot there and one of my coaches has represented the state at national-level events and we can still shoot there, just we are no longer allowed to receive lessons underneath them. While one of my coaches has no issue with the KSL method itself, he does not like to use it for his students. (He also does not teach "pro" level shooters, everyone shoots on an amateur level)
The club president also enforced a rule that everyone now has to wear their club shirts while shooting at club tournaments in an effort to be "professional." It is literally that, state or national level shirts only. No archery branded shirts or other alternative shirts.

Both coaches are now looking at other options, as are several of us who shoot with him. They're pretty much left with 3 options:

-Hire out the section of the archery range that is available to the public and use that to run classes.
-Join another archery club that will accept them (and us). Given that no other club in the state likes my club (apart from maybe 1 or 2), this will be an easy move. On top of that, because all of us are registered with the state and national bodies (all clubs require you to do this), it's just a matter of simply showing our cards to get a reduced fee if we join later in the year.
-Start our own club...this will more than likely not happen.

I am also not kidding in the sense that we will join them if they move clubs. Sure we could all go and find other coaches, but given that we're all equals, we all help each other out (I have been known to correct one of my coaches a few times as English is not his first language) and when he held a BBQ, we all clustered around him like the Knights of the Archery Table :lol:, it's a given that our loyalty is to him and not to the club.

On top of that, we found out that the president of the club is pulling another dick move. There is a website out there for the KSL method that is run by some other guy and has been running for at least 10 years. The club president apparently decided that wasn't good enough and set up not only his own website, but a "governing body" that he's labelled very close to the national and international bodies. It's enough that someone could not tell the difference between the two, think that they're receiving better coaching than the club up the road and find out that it's not the case. It's actually enough as well to turn new archers off the sport. The "governing" body is NOT in any way sanctioned by Archery NSW, Archery Australia or FITA.

TL, DR: Archery club president decides that the method he likes is better than keeping it simple, forces all coaches to use it and bars anyone else from coaching unless they conform to his standards. President also pulls dick move to set up his own websites that market the method as being "better" and that it's sanctioned by various governing bodies, when it's only accepted by his own. It's basically what you DON'T want.

Gizmo
01-06-2015, 03:57 PM
One of the reasons so far I haven't actually gone to any clubs and we shoot on private land. That plus a few get snooty over Traditional Longbow around here and hate it if you aren't using sights etc and want to use a "plain" bow.

I'm starting to see if I can get into a club now as a non re-enactment friend wants to shoot (and she's a natural from what I saw when we were on a holiday weekend) and dreading it...

fireheart
01-06-2015, 10:49 PM
One of the reasons so far I haven't actually gone to any clubs and we shoot on private land. That plus a few get snooty over Traditional Longbow around here and hate it if you aren't using sights etc and want to use a "plain" bow.

I'm starting to see if I can get into a club now as a non re-enactment friend wants to shoot (and she's a natural from what I saw when we were on a holiday weekend) and dreading it...

Funnily enough, over here shooting barebow is seen as odd. My great uncle (American) shoots barebow and found it odd that I don't.

Gilhelmi
01-06-2015, 11:49 PM
It has been a long time since I shot Archery. We never had any "official" trainers in my town, and when the Archery club burned down, well, killed the sport for everyone except hunters (who get longer seasons and wider range of targets, then rifle hunters).

But I do have good memories of Archery. And being a prepper, I am learning how to make my own bows (I learned how to make the arrows and fletching (sp? feathers that stabilize the fight) while in Boy Scouts).

I wonder how the rest of the club will react to the loss of members (and possible legal action for the president making the website look too much like the "official" ones)?

Good luck on finding a new club, hopefully the travel will not be that much different.

greek_jester
01-07-2015, 12:34 PM
One of the reasons so far I haven't actually gone to any clubs and we shoot on private land. That plus a few get snooty over Traditional Longbow around here and hate it if you aren't using sights etc and want to use a "plain" bow.
Wait a minute... I used to be friends with someone who shot using an English longbow with about a 100lb draw weight. The reason there are no sights on a longbow is that the draw is so great that holding at full draw for more than a few seconds risks shearing the bow string through your fingers. A properly trained longbowman (or longbowoman) should be able to draw and release in very nearly one movement and know from that movement where the arrow should land (see below for further details on longbows).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow


Even normal bows can be nasty if you're not careful. I once used a combination bow and didn't have my fingers properly in the finger guard; the guard slipped a bit and I sliced the inside joint of my index finger pulling back too hard on the string.

Gizmo
01-07-2015, 05:59 PM
Wait a minute...

All agreed. A bit of a cross over here - I have a fibreglass Nomad bow which I'd also like to use. They don't want to put sights on the longbow. Its more that the attitude is "you need to be using a REAL bow...." as if a Longbow or a Nomad isn't a real bow and if you haven't got the full sights etc job then it doesn't count. We shoot for fun not for doing competitions.

And yes, one of the first things I corrected a friend on when we were away doing the archery thing was not to hold at full draw for long because a) it hurts you and b) it makes you shake. Her aim improved a lot after that! (So much that I owe her dinner. :D)

fireheart
01-07-2015, 08:58 PM
And yes, one of the first things I corrected a friend on when we were away doing the archery thing was not to hold at full draw for long because a) it hurts you and b) it makes you shake. Her aim improved a lot after that! (So much that I owe her dinner. :D)

I had this problem for a while (I shoot recurve freestyle* with a 24lb bow).

So a slight update: my coaches are now holding clandestine classes at the range. :p The beginners are having their lessons elsewhere (since we don't actually use our bows) while the slightly more advanced folks are shooting at the range with him checking on everyone every now and then. Given he runs an online equipment store as well, there is a legitimate reason for him to be at the range and not doing much. :devil:

While I can shoot 20m at a target with a bow and my arrows, I'm stepping back a bit as I haven't had much practice over the holidays and I've gone a bit soft. We've also discovered that while I'm "grouping" nicely on the target, my groupings aren't centre. So back to stretch band practice for a bit until my upper body strength has improved and my foundations are getting better (we've since discovered that I have to basically act like a concertina because I'm quite busty :lol:)

*-This is where you're shooting recurve with the stabilisers and whatnot on your bow.

wolfie
01-07-2015, 09:22 PM
Its more that the attitude is "you need to be using a REAL bow...." as if a Longbow or a Nomad isn't a real bow and if you haven't got the full sights etc job then it doesn't count.

A couple points:

1) In some classes of competition, compound bows/sights/stabilizers/mechanical releases/etc. are prohibited. You MUST use traditional-style equipment (don't know if modern materials such as fiberglass are allowed, or if it has to be a wooden bow).

2) At Agincourt, the English used longbows without all the modern crap. Those people need to ask the French knights whether they think the English used "real bows".

Gizmo
01-07-2015, 10:59 PM
2) At Agincourt, the English used longbows without all the modern crap. Those people need to ask the French knights whether they think the English used "real bows".

I do medieval re-enactment. Ok due to safety and the size of the arena most limit to 45lb (some 60lb). However I still can attest how "real" damage can be from a longbow. :lol: (and that is with the rubber safety blunts (redheads) we use in the UK.

dalesys
01-07-2015, 11:19 PM
2) At Agincourt, the English used longbows without all the modern crap. Those people need to ask the French knights whether they think the English used "real bows".
And they used woolen arrows. Why else would they be described as "Clothyard"? :p

wolfie
01-08-2015, 01:39 AM
And they used woolen arrows. Why else would they be described as "Clothyard"? :p

I believe that in the Middle Ages, units with the same name but different sizes were used for different things. A "clothyard shaft" was an arrow a yard (in the context of measuring cloth) long.

Hanzoku
01-08-2015, 05:52 AM
Hey, a fellow archery fan. I also practice archery, though my bow club is a traditional club only - I think anyone coming in with a modern metal and pulley bow would be quietly stared at by the whole group before someone ventured to ask them where their real bow was. :p

In my case, I use a horse bow, as I found the draw with a horse bow to be the most pleasant. (It also fits into my car a bit better then an unstrung longbow would have...)

fireheart
01-08-2015, 10:03 AM
Hey, a fellow archery fan. I also practice archery, though my bow club is a traditional club only - I think anyone coming in with a modern metal and pulley bow would be quietly stared at by the whole group before someone ventured to ask them where their real bow was. :p

In my case, I use a horse bow, as I found the draw with a horse bow to be the most pleasant. (It also fits into my car a bit better then an unstrung longbow would have...)

Heh, I shoot recurve (no pulleys). My partner shoots longbow though and he freaking adores it. Although he needs to find somewhere else for his arrows as he's now down to 2 after his last few shoots. He's joined a traditional club as well, but that club has also extended an invite for me to join them for a shoot if I so wish. (his longbow is currently half-stored in the case it came in with a mailing tube shoved over the ends. For reference, his is a 30lb 70" bow)

I also have another slightly more awesome update: the father of one of the kids that has lessons through my coaches has provided a place for him to do some classes as part of the business his family runs (a small gym). The non-shooting classes will take place elsewhere, those archers who are shooting 20m will learn at the gym and anyone who's shooting further than that will "learn" at the club. (the max distance for women is 70m, men is 90m)

Kittish
01-08-2015, 06:52 PM
Would a quiet heads up to the official archery sites about this guy trying to make his site look like theirs result in anything? Such as requiring him to take down or change his website, since he's clearly attempting to appear official and thus is fraudulent?

fireheart
01-08-2015, 07:56 PM
Would a quiet heads up to the official archery sites about this guy trying to make his site look like theirs result in anything? Such as requiring him to take down or change his website, since he's clearly attempting to appear official and thus is fraudulent?

That's the plan. I'm laying low for a week or so while my coaches set up their alternate options. He may be required to change his website, but that's about it. When I do leave the club, I do also plan on leaving an anonymous scathing letter on the club noticeboard (we all have access to it, as there's a sign-up sheet there if we can't use the biometric sign-up)

What might help slightly is that FITA has changed their name to the World Archery Federation. (FITA=Federation Internationale de Tir a l'Arc) Basically it just makes his case look even worse :devil:.

The KSL website won't be changed, as there is clearly a difference between the two-the legitimate KSL website looks less sleek, but has a ton more information. His website is "sleeker".

Crossbow
01-09-2015, 01:52 PM
Even though I shoot pretty much anything that throws a long pointy stick downrange, I'm really only familiar with FITA or re-enactment shooting. I'm don't know what the specifics of the methods mentioned.

However, I will say that I've always considered archery (and any such shooting sport) to be a combination of two things: Precision and Accuracy. In my mind, precision is the far more important of the two. Until you can consistently put your shot exactly where you want it, hitting the bullseye is more a matter of luck.

Fireheart, can you give a quick explanation of which of the methods is easier for teaching Precision to new archers?

EDIT: And I don't care what the new name is. I'm still going to call it FITA. :)

fireheart
01-12-2015, 12:30 AM
Fireheart, can you give a quick explanation of which of the methods is easier for teaching Precision to new archers?

EDIT: And I don't care what the new name is. I'm still going to call it FITA. :)

Everyone calls it FITA anyway, but this might provide some more clarity.

And re the "precision" question, my coaches are big believers in getting the foundations right first. By this, your posture, your setup (getting the bow ready), drawing and releasing. Then you concentrate on the little things in each area ie making sure that you're balanced on your feet and not leaning back or forward too far, that your shoulders are down on your setup and that when you release, your hand goes back towards your ear instead of snapping "out"

And I'm pleased to report that we have a happy ending: the father of one of the kids my instructor teaches has given my coaches space in his family gym to run his classes. It's big enough to accommodate both shooting and non-shooting archers, so in other words, the club is no longer the place to be :lol:
It does look like my male coach (the guy who runs the school) may swap clubs in the long-term, but for now he's playing his moves nice and quietly. As for me, I'm going to swap clubs when the time comes for me to renew my membership. I already have a membership with the state and federal governing bodies, it's just a matter of swapping allegiances :lol: So now I'm in the process of looking at other clubs for when that time comes. There's 1 that's an easier commute on the weekends. :)

Crossbow
01-12-2015, 02:25 PM
Good to hear! Sounds like your coaches are on the ball.

fireheart
01-22-2015, 06:28 PM
Well, if I wasn't leaving this club before, I am leaving now.

My male coach (awesome as he is) posted the entire story on our group page. Long story short, the president of the club has decided to wield his influence over everyone else and his superiority to the KSL technique and opted to expel my male coach from the club. What. A. Dick. (Female coach is fine as she works with the business who use the other half of the range for beginner classes and other archery classes for the general public. Expelling her from the club would have further ramifications)
My coach doesn't want anyone to swap clubs due to his decision, but I am still going to do so out of sheer disgust at the way the president is wielding his power. I was told by my SO not to get too involved in this, so swapping clubs is my way of keeping my temptation to say something in check. I will be posting something to the club notice board though before I go. :devil:
Fortunately, there are two other clubs I can access and my coach has found classes elsewhere, where he's more welcomed.

fireheart
01-30-2015, 12:51 AM
And even better: coach and female coach were both offered positions with a club on the other side of town. He also has an associate membership with another club, which only shoots on Saturdays. This is fine for all of us. Nearly every single person that is currently training with him has also opted to move clubs, whether it's to the club he's associated at or to the club he has a main membership with.

For me it's an hour either way, but it's a toss-up between a bus ride and a short walk vs. 2 trains and a short walk. I'll most likely sign up with the associate club over the other club due to the distance.

As for the archery club president (who will hereby be referred to as Turtle's Egg from here on out), he's had to change the date of his meeting because some "key witnesses" will not be present on the original date. :wtf:. Since I plan on leaving the club, I fully plan on going there and basically calling him out on his BS. :devil:

Kittish
01-30-2015, 01:39 AM
As for the archery club president (who will hereby be referred to as Turtle's Egg from here on out), he's had to change the date of his meeting because some "key witnesses" will not be present on the original date. :wtf:.

Key witnesses? For an archery club meeting? What, is he planning on holding a trial? Deciding who to make into the next target dummy? :wtf: doesn't even begin to cover that.

fireheart
01-30-2015, 02:09 AM
Key witnesses? For an archery club meeting? What, is he planning on holding a trial? Deciding who to make into the next target dummy? :wtf: doesn't even begin to cover that.

Yeah, I'm just quoting off the email. I already pointed out that this whole thing simply SCREAMED "kangaroo court."

I did email archery Australia about my concerns, but I haven't heard anything back. Hopefully they might rain some karma down on Turtle's Egg.

ETA: and it looks like they have! Kinda...

I got yet ANOTHER email in my inbox today. Long story short, pushing the superiority of the method yet again. -.- Luckily both coaches have said "fuck it" and are moving elsewhere. I (in so many words) proceeded to politely tell him where he could stick his email.

wolfie
01-30-2015, 02:14 PM
Yeah, I'm just quoting off the email. I already pointed out that this whole thing simply SCREAMED "kangaroo court."

I did email archery Australia about my concerns,

I see what you did there.:D

smileyeagle1021
01-31-2015, 05:13 PM
One of the reasons so far I haven't actually gone to any clubs and we shoot on private land. That plus a few get snooty over Traditional Longbow around here and hate it if you aren't using sights etc and want to use a "plain" bow.



I had a similar problem at a range I used to frequent... people were real snobs about how I must just be too poor to afford a modern bow... um, no, I prefer the traditional because the modern bows feel like they are cheating. I look at a lot of the new bows with their pulleys and their sights and their counter balances and all I can think is damnit if you are going to throw that much modern tech on it you might as well go all out and add some gunpowder, a barrel, and a bullet.
Fortunately, there is an abandoned lot next to my mom's house that the owners have given us permission to set up a range in in exchange for keeping the weeds down. We can use our recurves and long bows free of criticism there anytime we like :)

Oh, and speaking of traditional shooting methods, this guy (http://youtu.be/BEG-ly9tQGk) proves that you can be crazy fast and accurate using even the most basic equipment, in fact the more basic the equipment the faster and more accurate you can be.

fireheart
01-31-2015, 09:20 PM
I had a similar problem at a range I used to frequent... people were real snobs about how I must just be too poor to afford a modern bow... um, no, I prefer the traditional because the modern bows feel like they are cheating. I look at a lot of the new bows with their pulleys and their sights and their counter balances and all I can think is damnit if you are going to throw that much modern tech on it you might as well go all out and add some gunpowder, a barrel, and a bullet.
Fortunately, there is an abandoned lot next to my mom's house that the owners have given us permission to set up a range in in exchange for keeping the weeds down. We can use our recurves and long bows free of criticism there anytime we like :)


Most clubs over here tend to have a mix of recurve and compound. My partner shoots with a medieval group, but will come to shoots with me every so often. My great uncle used to shoot barebow (recurve without sights and stuff), I may give that a go eventually.

fireheart
02-03-2015, 11:23 PM
And it gets even better!

Got home today to find this gem on Facebook. Long story short, I wasn't the only one who had queried about the use of the KSL method in question and whether it was recognised or not. What I DID find out though was quite interesting :devil:.

Basically, said coaching program is not endorsed or approved by Archery Australia and in fact, nobody bothered to seek approval for it. Any coach who went through said scheme was not in fact recognised as a coach by Archery Australia AT ALL unless they went through the original coaching program! So really...there are about 5 different coaches who may or may not be actual coaches after all! :eek: (the "Level 3" coach they have at the club is the ONLY one I'm aware of who is recognised as a legitimate coach by Archery Australia as he'd gone through the Archery Australia program prior to this whole mess)

fireheart
02-05-2015, 02:32 AM
And yet another nail in the coffin of Turtle's Egg.

I found out today that normally when you sign up for a club, part of your fee goes to Archery Australia, part of your fee goes to the state association and the rest goes to your club for CLUB-RELATED things. When you sign up as well, the club president is responsible for putting your details through the system and sending them off to Archery Australia (you can opt-out if you wish, but nobody does since it gives you the OK to shoot ANYWHERE).

What Turtle's Egg had been doing was sending off the applications, but he'd been changing people's email addresses to his own personal email before sending the application off. Luckily, my membership with the club is still valid and Archery Australia confirmed it today when I emailed them to update my email (since I would be switching clubs soon enough). Turns out that Archery Australia has been fully aware of this, but hadn't done anything up until now.

I think this is the start of karma :devil:

The kangaroo court is next weekend. After that, I'm going to go back to shooting again.

rose_metal_nz
02-05-2015, 04:43 AM
What Turtle's Egg had been doing was sending off the applications, but he'd been changing people's email addresses to his own personal email before sending the application off. .................
Turns out that Archery Australia has been fully aware of this, but hadn't done anything up until now.


Aww whut? That's incredibly sucky on both his & their parts. :(

Hanzoku
02-05-2015, 06:11 AM
Well, they would have to be aware of it. 30-odd people won't all have the same e-mail of Turtle.Egg@Provider.com

But yeah, it would have been nice if they would have stepped in in some fashion to let people know this was going on.

Gilhelmi
02-05-2015, 09:23 AM
What Turtle's Egg had been doing was sending off the applications, but he'd been changing people's email addresses to his own personal email before sending the application off. Luckily, my membership with the club is still valid and Archery Australia confirmed it today when I emailed them to update my email (since I would be switching clubs soon enough). Turns out that Archery Australia has been fully aware of this, but hadn't done anything up until now.

I think this is the start of karma :devil:



I am sorry, but I do not follow. Why would he want to do that to begin with?

On a side note, I believe altering or redirecting personal communications is a serious crime in many places. Those Emails were not suppose to go to him, he could possible be charge with some type of fraud. (though doubtful any prosecutor would be willing to prosecute, he could be charged. In theory anyway)

fireheart
02-05-2015, 11:55 PM
Well, they would have to be aware of it. 30-odd people won't all have the same e-mail of Turtle.Egg@Provider.com

But yeah, it would have been nice if they would have stepped in in some fashion to let people know this was going on.

I think they'll only interfere if they're doing something flat-out illegal or doing something dangerous/life-threatening. (For instance, if club president is requiring all members to gamble in order to compete or if the club is using flaming arrows on their targets :lol:)

I am sorry, but I do not follow. Why would he want to do that to begin with?


To be honest, I have no idea. My bet would be as a means of controlling the club members so to speak. Either that or he believes that he's doing us a favour by having us avoid spam. Although this now does put the coaches expulsion in a new light.

wolfie
02-07-2015, 08:39 PM
I found out today that normally when you sign up for a club, part of your fee goes to Archery Australia,

The kangaroo court is next weekend.

I see what you did there - was it intentional?:D

fireheart
02-08-2015, 01:23 AM
I see what you did there - was it intentional?:D

No. :p

I've also opted to give myself a bit of a sabbatical until after these events blow over as I have this tendency to shoot my mouth off sometimes and it just winds up making things worse. I've already had to restrain myself from bitching on the school page.

I will be trying a club shoot by June.

fireheart
02-21-2015, 04:29 AM
So the kangaroo court was last weekend. I only found out the verdict this weekend because my partner still gets club emails (for god knows what reason).

Short version: all the club members present opted to expel my coach, but coach had been approached by 2 other clubs to provide his services and they were happy to let him run his services freely on the grounds.

Club president reminded everyone that commercial ventures were not to be done on club grounds (how ironic...) and that if there was any coaching being done, that the club needed records of this occurring (this was already being done).

No skin off our nose, since we're all happily ensconced elsewhere. Most of us are headed further out north, I'll be going closer to home.