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Jester
12-09-2007, 04:49 PM
I have a good friend that I have known for years down here. For this story I'll call her Tiny Dancer. (Thank you, Elton John.) She is a sweetheart. She is also about 5'6" and about 110 lbs. soaking wet. A stiff breeze could probably blow her away. Her fiancee is about 6'2" and 240 lbs. Easily twice her size, almost twice MY size. The kind of guy you refer to as a Big Boy.

The other day, Big Boy and Tiny Dancer were out and about. Tiny Dancer wanted to go home. Big Boy did not. He emphasized his point of view by beating the living shit out of Tiny Dancer, a girl who is, as I said, about half his size. He claimed the next morning that all her bruises and whatnot were from her falling out of the truck.

Um, no. For several reasons, the obvious one being the fact that she knows she didn't fall out of the truck. Two, the nasty mark under her eye could only be caused by two things. Someone's fist, or a baseball you were leaning into too much. Tiny Dancer has not been out on the diamond playing ball lately. Three, as a cyclist I am intimately familiar with "road burn," that horrible rash of torn up skin you get when your body skids along the road. The bruises she had were just that...bruises. They were NOT in any way road burn. Not the ones on her arms, not the ones on her face, and certainly not the ones on her throat.

Big Boy told Tiny Dancer that he would kill her or have his friends from up north kill her if she went to the cops. Unlike a lot of people in this situation, Tiny Dancer did exactly what we would want her to do....she went to the cops.

The cops have contacted Tiny Dancer and told her that Big Boy has been arrested. (I am not certain of this, as his mugshot is still not posted on the local sheriff's office website, as all arrests are.) As he has a rap sheet taller than him, most of it for violent acts, and because Tiny Dancer is pressing charges, we are all very hopefull that Big Boy is going away for a long time. With the right judge, he will. It is not uncommon for certain criminals, once they have finished their jail sentenced, to be told they are not allowed in this county for X years afterwards, under penalty of further arrest. I kind of like that part of it myself, and we are hopeful that that happens as well. Actually, I personally am rooting for a violent prison shower gang rape of Big Boy, but I am evil like that.

Tomorrow I am taking Tiny Dancer to see my doctor, to (A) make sure there is no permanent damage/broken bones/etc., and (B) to get medical documentation of her injuries for when she files for a restraining order, something else she is doing tomorrow. Needless to say, he is no longer her fiancee. Also, all her friends are rallying around her and offering her just about anything she needs, from vehicles to help her get her stuff from her shared residence with Big Boy, to new places to live, to just companionship, etc. She is obviously very emotional about this whole thing, and somewhat embarrassed, but at least she is doing the right thing and not letting this shitstain get away with this nonsense, as all too many women do.

Several of her more evil friends (who I may or may not be one of) have voiced suggestions of dealing with Big Boy in other ways, if the criminal justice system comes out on the side of this criminal instead of on the side of justice.

So obviously I was in a state last night, as were many people, until we got the word that the local constabulary had found and arrested Big Boy. (Though again, I will not be happy till I see his mugshot posted and KNOW they did their job and didn't just give him a "talking to.")

The good news is that Tiny Dancer is doing better today psychologically, but is obviously sore physically. While my doctor's office is not open today, I have a friend who is a doctor, though not practicing, who agreed to take a look at her today, just for Tiny Dancer's peace of mind.

So, how was everyone else's weekend?

Saydrah
12-09-2007, 04:58 PM
Wow. Damn. Give her a hug from me if she's not too tender to tough.

Also, there's this stuff called Burt's Bees Res-Q Remedy that will cut the bruises' healing time in half if it works on her anything like it works on me and my whole group of family and friends who I've gotten to carry the stuff everywhere. I've never been beaten up by a human that bad, but I've had a few truly epic falls off horses, and it sucks to walk around with everyone telling you, "Leave the jerk, honey!" including strangers for weeks- must suck even worse when it WAS a jerk and you DID leave him and have him arrested.

Only real thing I can add- other than that, *pat on back* Good friend *pat on back for Tiny Dancer* GOOD GIRL getting the boy arrested....

.....And if he gets released and you can lure him to New York somehow, lemme know.

Jester
12-09-2007, 05:01 PM
Why New York? Aren't you in Colorado?

And darlin', nothing personal....but there are plenty of evil bastards down here, we have lots of friends with boats, and an entire ocean to work with.

Saydrah
12-09-2007, 05:04 PM
I've never been to New York, but I'M not particularly harmful, at least not to someone his size- not me you need.

Just sayin', if all those people and their boats fall through, I know a guy who knows a guy.

morgana
12-09-2007, 05:20 PM
I have an ax, a large lake, a friend with a boat, and no known motive . . . Lure him to Topeka.

Jester
12-09-2007, 05:25 PM
Wouldn't sending him to Kansas be punishment enough?



(ducks and runs out of the room.....)

Saydrah
12-09-2007, 05:26 PM
Anything but that! Or make him drive a van through Nebraska!

AsatruThorsman
12-09-2007, 05:26 PM
Big Boy obviously doesn't have a Big Brain to match. Well done to you and Tiny Dancer. Nail the bastard!

Jester
12-09-2007, 05:32 PM
Very current update: due to bureaucratic idiocy, Big Boy, while he was located and even cuffed last night, was not, in fact, arrested. The officer who told Tiny Dancer this (I just got off the phone with her), told her that they ARE going to go before a judge tomorrow and seek a warrant for Big Boy's arrest, and if they get it (likely), they will serve it immediately and haul his ass in.

Stay tuned.

Saydrah
12-09-2007, 05:44 PM
Let me know as breaking news develops.

Hopefully news of Big Boy making a break for it at breakneck speed when the cops break down his door, then taking a break from running to catch his breath, upon which an officer of the law overtakes him and breaks wind in his face, causing BB to apply the brakes and turn himself in, at which point several policepersons leap on him and break most of his bones.

Rahmota
12-09-2007, 07:06 PM
Garg! Try and find some one who would need their boat keelhauled. That is not being a man that is being a coward. I sincerely hope he gets each and every bruise he gave repaid in double.

Also good wishes towards your friend and you in this. Ogres like that may not have much brains but what brains they do have are geared towards survival and revenge.

Crazeyal
12-09-2007, 07:13 PM
Oy.. Sometimes Bureaucracy makes some baaaaad mojo. I hope the idiots responsible for that foulup are disciplined.

crazylegs
12-09-2007, 08:39 PM
Big Boy, small brain, smaller d1ck.

Am really hoping for som serious jail time for this idiot, Domestic Abuse is foul, anyone found to commit it should in fact have old royal navy punishments inflicted, one after the other (gauntlet, flogging and keel haul).

(if anyone wants explanation of gauntlet, let me know).

XCashier
12-09-2007, 08:39 PM
Very current update: due to bureaucratic idiocy, Big Boy, while he was located and even cuffed last night, was not, in fact, arrested. The officer who told Tiny Dancer this (I just got off the phone with her), told her that they ARE going to go before a judge tomorrow and seek a warrant for Big Boy's arrest, and if they get it (likely), they will serve it immediately and haul his ass in.
:( I hope TD has someplace safe to stay, someplace BB can't get to. You know he's going to try to "get even with her" for going to the police.

Still, she was very brave and very smart to go straight to the police, instead of rationalizing it like too many women do ("He really does love me, I just pushed him too far" yadda yadda yadda). And you're a good friend and a true mensch for standing up for her and helping her out.

I hope he gets a nice long stay at the Greybar Hotel. Or a fun trip through :chipper: The millstone and ocean idea is a good one, too...sharks gotta eat too. :devil:

MystyGlyttyr
12-09-2007, 11:13 PM
This sounds exactly like several other shitstains I've had to deal with over the years. They're almost always the exact same type. But as several others have mentioned, in this case, T.D. did the right thing to report his ass.

Jester, if you'd like, I can give you my recipe for homemade pepper spray and you can stir her up a batch. You'll have to give me a chance to go home and remember how much of which particular ingrediants go in it, though. I remember there's habanero, lemon, and cayenne in it...maybe vinegar, can't recall...but the exact quantities I won't remember until I can measure the cups I use to mix it. (It's also good for clearing a blocked nose...) Anyway, it wouldn't hurt give her something like that to carry around. Now, in all seriousness, I AM going to run home and measure the ingrediants because I'm sure there's a few folks who wouldn't mind having a cheap and easy method of self-defense to keep handy. Honestly, any ONE of those three, particularly the habanero, would be good, but the bunch of them together...yeah, let's just say you want a metal bottle to keep it in, plastic is NO GOOD.

Rapscallion
12-09-2007, 11:44 PM
Let me know as breaking his kneecaps develops.


Thought I'd edit a little something from this side of the pond.

Rapscallion

blas
12-10-2007, 01:16 AM
Big Boy isn't such a Big Boy if he has to hit girls to get his point across. Pussy.

Let me at him.

Der Cute
12-10-2007, 01:21 AM
Jester:

Tell TD she's doing a good job. Over a year ago I was almost choked to unconsciousness by a "friend". And before that ..years ago...was in a domestic violence.

Its not fun, hell no, not easy, hell no, but when you come out knowing YOU DID THE RIGHT THING AND THEY'RE IN THE CAN.. it feels very good.

Pictures w/ time, date, location. Doctor visit should also take pictures -and you'll get a doctor's comments along w/ the pics. Make sure she knows about restraining orders, going to court, pressing charges ...all of it. It's long and drawn out process, never gets done fast enough IMO.

Night after I was choked I was in shock. Took me almost 3 days to come back out of it and start FEELING things. Irrational, crying, upset, why me, may be included.

Does she have a place to stay? Cell phone w/ names/numbers? Does boss know about restraining order/ trespass? Got the police report file number and a cop's phone number with her at all times? Copy of restraining order?

Good luck..

Cutenoob

Soulstealer
12-10-2007, 01:21 AM
Big Boy isn't such a Big Boy if he has to hit girls to get his point across. Pussy.

Let me at him.

He's not good enough to have a pussy. Finals will be over soon so I've no motive and I do enjoy a good beating... I mean justice.

CaroPhoenix
12-10-2007, 02:25 AM
I know I'm a little late, but Bravo and Huzzah to Tiny Dancer for getting the cops involved with this.

Give us an update ASAP. I want to know if her injuries have definitely been documented and if she's okies physically & mentally and if Big Boy has definitely been arrested yet.

MystyGlyttyr
12-10-2007, 03:34 AM
Okay, got the recipe.

about 1/3 cup of habanero juice
1/2 cup of lemon juice
1 cup of water boiled with one teaspoon of cayenne pepper

Stir the two juices into the water and pepper, then boil them together for five minutes. Then pour them through a strainer into a cup of vinegar-the more acidic, the better-and stir. Keep in a small metal bottle that you can easily carry and that preferably has both squirt and mist functions. Squirt is preferable in most cases, but a heavy mist has it's moments. Try to stay downwind, heh heh.

Jester
12-10-2007, 02:19 PM
Oy.. Sometimes Bureaucracy makes some baaaaad mojo. I hope the idiots responsible for that foulup are disciplined.

Nah....the cops involved were just doing their job, from what I heard. Something about jurisdictional whatever whatever. Hey, as long as the dude is bagged and tagged, I have no beef with our local Blue Boys.

:( I hope TD has someplace safe to stay, someplace BB can't get to.

She does. Without going into details, her current locale might as well be Ft. Knox as far as BB is concerned....if he ever even thought to look for her there.

No more updates at this time....leaving shortly to drive TD to the doc, and then to the appropriate gov't building for the restraining order. Will keep y'all posted.

crazylegs
12-10-2007, 02:22 PM
Good to hear its going right for her, also nice to hear Jester is looking out for her.

Jester
12-10-2007, 04:01 PM
Okay, here is what happened with the foulup when BB was cuffed but then released.

The officers who found BB were not the officers who took TD's report, so did not realize the severity of the situation, or the extent of TD's injuries. They probably assumed that it was "just another domestic violence thing." Now, before anyone jumps on the cops or me for that, remember, the police deal with a lot of domestic violence calls that are mutual spats, minor scrapes, couples arguing, etc. A good portion of these calls are, when it comes down to it, not that serious. That being said, generally speaking when the cops are aware of a serious domestic violence situation, such as the current one, they tend to go out of their way to put things right.

And our local boys are doing just that. The detective in charge of TD's case called her to explain the foulup, and to tell her that they would be seeking a warrant today from the judge, and then serving the warrant on BB ASAP. He also said that part of the problem was the delay in reporting the incident--she reported it the day after, so it was not an ongoing situation, as it were. TD could not report it sooner, as she was with BB up until he dropped her off for work, and she couldn't get away from him before then. Upon being dropped off she immediately went about contacting the authorities. The detective also said that if the officers who had found BB had known of the extent of TD's injuries, they never would have let him go.

So really no one is at fault here that I can see, other than BB and an honest mistake by the officers who initially found BB.

TD is currently at the doctor's office, where I dropped her off under my own version of armed security--my Louisville Slugger in my hand--which no one in the office questioned much when TD took off her sunglasses. (Hopefully they didn't think *I* did that to her! :eek: )

I am doing some prep work for a bartending contest I am in later this afternoon, and will be picking up TD when she is done at the doc's. After that, another friend, RM, will be taking TD to the appropriate place for filing a restraining order. I would do that, as well, but I do have the contest, and TD and RM understand that. If it were a choice between the contest or TD, I would withdraw from the contest, of course, but the fact is TD is still getting to the place she needs to go. So all is well.....for the moment.

More as it happens.

Rahmota
12-10-2007, 05:30 PM
Well thats good that she is being taken care of. Keep up the good work.

Figured it was some sort of paperwork issue. Most officers I know when its something seriously bad domestic like that they umm accidentally drop or step on the guy a few times getting him in the car. You know little accidental stuff....:angel:But yeah sad to say the domestic call is one of the more common and unpleasant ones an officer faces.

MadMike
12-10-2007, 10:58 PM
Wow.

I am by no means a model guy, but I would never lay a hand on a woman. Well, unless it was self-defense, but that's a whole other situation altogether.

I'm glad she did what very few people seem willing to do, and actually pressed charges against his worthless ass. Hopefully he meets with an even bigger guy who doesn't think much of guys who beat up women. :rant: :pissed:

auntiem
12-10-2007, 11:08 PM
I'm glad she has people to "circle the wagons" around her. Here they offer free counseling when you get a restraining order - hopefully she is offered this and takes them up on it even if she thinks she doesn't need it.
I suggest (from experience) that she read her restraining order very carefully to make sure she doesn't violate it herself (ex. inviting him in to talk if he isn't being a douche) and what exactly she has to do if he walks into a public space that she is in (ex. a bar - she might have leave and if she doesn't that might violate the order). Is she going to also add his friend's names since his threat implyed they would also be a danger?

Good luck on the contest!

unholypet
12-11-2007, 12:49 AM
If you need another spot to send some pieces, Tennessee has some feral dogs, and I some sharpened tanto and katana =p

Jester
12-11-2007, 07:53 AM
Good news:

After a go-round at the doc's and the local hospital (for some x-rays they couldn't do at the doc's), TD has discovered that she has no internal injuries and no broken bones. Not sure if she has a concussion or not--forgot to ask. (I was in the middle of the bartending contest when I got this news, so my mind was otherwise focused.)

Bad news:

No warrant. No arrest. No idea why. TD will find out more when she talks to the detective tomorrow.

She is still planning on filing a restraining order, and pressing charges of the local judicial system won't, but we were hoping (and still are) that they would file charges against him not only for assault and battery, but perhaps even attempted murder as well. The bruises on her neck that look amazingly like finger marks were the reasons we were hoping they would go for the more serious charges.

I doubt she could get a restraining order against his friends, for various reasons, but I don't think they are really an issue. He is the issue. He talks a big game about his friends, but we really doubt they are flying down here for something like this. In addition to various legal points, it would be hard to get a restraining order against "his friends" with no names.

If in the end the judicial system fails TD, she has already decided she is going to have to relocate. This is too small a town for her to ever feel safe and as if she doesn't have to be constantly looking over her shoulder if he is roaming about free and clear. Yes, that sucks, but if the legal system fails, I don't think she really has much of a choice there. Hopefully, though, this current setback is just a temporary one, and the wheels of justice are merely moving slowly, not grinding to a halt.

The medical stuff took a while today....tomorrow we are forging ahead with the legal stuff, as she will be in contact with the detective in charge of her case to (hopefully) find out more, and I will be taking her to the appropriate government office to file the restraining order and take care of anything else she needs to take care of. Ironically, I have yet another contest tomorrow, though this is a cookoff, not a bartending contest.....so I am hoping to wrap things up early in the day with her. (Hey, what can I say? I love competition, and I love creating things.) Naturally, though, she is my first priority tomorrow.

MMATM
12-11-2007, 08:12 AM
Whoa, no warrant, no arrest? In a case like this?

I feel like someone, somewhere, is losing their job over this. Very soon. And potentially a lot of money, as well.

Also, though I hate to join the masses of people offering opinions for very severe circumstances, I might recommend you hire or otherwise engage a bodyguard for TD, even if it's just a friend with a baseball bat and a short temper. Big Boy probably won't do anything stupid, since it'd just land him in the slammer, but with the limited mental faculties he's demonstrated recently, coming after TD might strike him as a wonderful idea, if he finds out where she is.

Also, regarding MadMike's comment, women-beaters and murderers of women and children are about at the bottom of the prison rape-ladder. If Big Boy does Federal time, he'll want to hide a bottle of lube in his Bible, if he even owns one. God knows (pun intended) he's not reading it.

Jester
12-11-2007, 08:18 AM
Bodyguard with a baseball bat? Why, that would be Jester's Chaufferial Services. :wave:

But hiring an actual bodyguard would be beyond the resources of TD or her friends, and really not feasible. If nothing comes of this, TD will simply relocate. Because, whether or not BB would come after her, she believes he will, and does not feel like she can live her life peering over her shoulder every day.

We still don't know why there is no warrant or arrest. We are hoping that there is simply no warrant or arrest yet. We will, as I said, hopefully find out more tomorrow when TD talks to the detective in charge of her case.

As for BB and jail, he would not serve any time he received in federal prison, as this is not a federal crime, and is being treated (appropriately) on the local level.

MMATM
12-11-2007, 09:30 AM
Valid point with the federal crime = federal time note. I should've thought about that more.

But even if hiring a bodyguard is beyond the reach of TD and her friends, I suppose Jester's Chauffeurial Services and other similar, uh, entities would come in handy. if only for transportation. I personally (though I don't know BB so can't be sure) wouldn't expect anyone in his situation to make things worse by coming after TD, but if it were one of my friends, I don't know if I'd be able to sleep without knowing if they're all right. I don't usually worry, but when it comes to friends' welfare I make exceptions.

I expect the detective's perspective will lend some clarity to the situation, though I don't see how BB hasn't been arrested in the case, or how he's not being tried with aggravated assault and battery, if not attempted murder. However it came about, I feel like someone or something is messed up here.

I can understand why TD wouldn't want to live her life in fear, and for her sake I hope BB does the time to fit his crime.

Good luck with the whole incident, and good luck with your cook-off! I see a thread you've started about your first vodka contest or something along those lines, so I'll have to read that to find out how your bartending competition went.

All the best, as always. I'll probably disappear off the CS.com grid for a few days since I have a lot of work to catch up in multiple classes and finals start next week. [INSERT DEITY HERE] willing I'll have a break sometime soon to check back, but if not then :wave: until later.

Jester
12-11-2007, 09:59 AM
But even if hiring a bodyguard is beyond the reach of TD and her friends, I suppose Jester's Chauffeurial Services and other similar, uh, entities would come in handy. if only for transportation.

For the moment, yes. But one can only live like that for so long. Her friends can't ALWAYS be around, and such a situation is not fair to TD or her friends. Eventually, she has to resume a normal life.

I personally (though I don't know BB so can't be sure) wouldn't expect anyone in his situation to make things worse by coming after TD...

I fully expect that he will come after her, if given the chance, since she defied him and went to the cops, which he specifically told her not to do. He may believe that "silencing" her will end his problems, or at the very least he may want to "teach her a lesson," a more severe one this time, that he thinks will be harsh enough where she will be too scared to go to the cops. If the cops end up not arresting/charging him, he may think that she will believe that the cops won't do anything about future beatings. She may actually believe that, and it may actually be correct.

Again, too early to tell what is going on and where this is going. But she does not want to live her life in this small town always looking over her shoulder, nor does anything think she should. If he does not go to jail or leave town, she will relocate. I am rarely one to advise running from a situation, but in this case, I believe that would be the correct thing to do. It sucks, of course, and is unfair to TD (she's been here even longer than I have), but life often sucks and is unfair. And Key West is not the only place in the world, despite what some people think (including me at times).

crazylegs
12-11-2007, 10:38 AM
I fully expect that he will come after her, if given the chance, since she defied him and went to the cops, which he specifically told her not to do.

<snip> If the cops end up not arresting/charging him, he may think that she will believe that the cops won't do anything about future beatings. She may actually believe that, and it may actually be correct.




Part one

Domestic Abuse is about control, he will only go after her if he beleives that by doing so will exert further control over her. By the sounds of things that may be likely.

Part two

I dont often critisise the Police but, if they don't arrest/charge for this offence, sue. They would have been negligent as an assault has been reported (and as long as the IP* has given statements/evidence and is willing to go to court) they are duty bound to follow it through.

*IP = Injured Party, sounds a bit nicer than victim and is more appropriate in some cases.

Jester
12-11-2007, 11:42 AM
She is both an injured party AND a victim. One look at the results of this guy's "handiwork" leaves one with no doubt about that.

As for the law...if the police, for whatever reason, end up not following this up, TD will look into going to the appropriate authorities and filing charges herself. I believe that this is the correct course to take....but only if and after the police decide to drop it. TD is trying to go through all the appropriate channels and do this right, so that BB goes AWAY.

I am hoping the police really do do something....I don't want any of TD's friends to go to jail for murder. (Ironic that the police would probably pursue THAT, don't ya think?)

RecoveringKinkoid
12-11-2007, 01:21 PM
Jester, don't misunderstand this, as I do admire you for what you are doing for her and believe that you are doing the right thing. A lot of women can't escape because they have no help.

But please be careful. You have a target on yourself as well. Please do not forget that.

Jester
12-11-2007, 07:16 PM
But please be careful. You have a target on yourself as well. Please do not forget that.

Bring it.

Seriously, I know I am not a big guy, and I know this guy could squash me like a grape. But fucking bring it. You don't fuck with Jester, and you don't fuck with Jester's friends. I have made myself her chauffeur/bodyguard lately, knowing full well the dangers inherent in it. In this kind of situation, I would help out just about anyone, often even people I might not like all that much....but maybe not to the extent I have this time. For TD, a friend I have known just about since I hit The Rock, I WILL go the extra distance. Life is full of danger, and I have never been known to shy away from it, and absolutely will NOT run from it if my friends are concerned or themselves in danger. Don't get me wrong, I am not seeking BB out or anything, as tempting as that is (I HAVE been itching for a fight lately, after all), but I don't want to damage TD's case against him by doing something reckless and stupid. And also, I'll be DAMNED if I am going to shirk my duties as a friend or violate my own moral compass because this guy may take a shot at me. I know not everyone could do that, and I don't respect them any less for it. But I personally could not DO any less than I have. So, if I am now a target, fine. The record of people fucking with Jester and coming out unscathed is not a very good one.

Bring it.



Latest news: Still no warrant. The detective in charge of the case has had the last couple of days off. He did tell her he would make sure it happened, and for the moment we are giving 5-0 the benefit of the doubt. We'll know more tomorrow.

Took TD out on errands today. She got a new phone, one he does not (and hopefully will not) have the number to. (Her old one is in his name, so this is practical anyway.) She also filed the papers for a restraining order against him. Just got a text from her as I was typing this post that the RO has been approved. It will probably be served today or tomorrow.

TD is picking up a copy of the medical report from the doc tomorrow, to buttress her case. If the PD does not act or get the warrant, TD will then go to the state attorney's office and attempt to file charges herself, or see what is entailed in that. She is seeing this through, thank goodness, and I am very proud of her. She is not doing what most people would think that many women would do, either hiding her head in the sand and wishing it would all go away, or answering his text messages and letting him talk his way back in. She knows (and I told her) that if she DID get back with BB, the next time this happened, people and the police would be very unlikely to help her. She is not, however, buckling. She's still a fighter, thank goodness. She is also discovering how many friends she has, as the wagons have been circled, and this guy is going to have to deal with more than just me if he thinks he is getting near her.

More news as it happens.

By the way, I HAVE told TD about my posting here, and she is amused about all the offers from people on here about ways to "dispose" of BB. She appreciates your moral support, folks, even though she doesn't know y'all. She actually finds it amusing that I posted it, and that the response has been so overwhelmingly positive.

RecoveringKinkoid
12-11-2007, 08:26 PM
Well, you tell TD that both you AND SHE are my heroes. :love:

That's how you tell a hero from a coward, folks. You can tell by the direction they run.

rvdammit
12-11-2007, 09:46 PM
I must admit to not having pigs that need feeding :(

Rapscallion
12-11-2007, 09:49 PM
Want to go halves on some?

Rapscallion

rvdammit
12-11-2007, 09:51 PM
Half pigs don't eat, unless they're zombiw pigs. Which'ds be no good cause they'd only want the brains.

Jester
12-11-2007, 09:58 PM
I dressed up as Hannibal Lecter for FUN.

I don't need no stinkin' pigs! :lol:

MadMike
12-11-2007, 10:30 PM
Bring it.

Seriously, I know I am not a big guy, and I know this guy could squash me like a grape. But fucking bring it.

And he most likely won't. Most guys who pick on women do so because they're too chickenshit to tangle with another guy, even if that guy is half his size.

I had a friend who, like yours, was in an abusive relationship. It used to get me so angry when she'd be crying on my shoulder about him the one day, and then going back with him the next. And naturally, I hated that S.O.B., but he was always trying to get on my good side. For people like him, I have no good side.

One night, my roommate invited me along to a party that he knew about, knowing that my friend would be there, but not knowing that her boyfriend would also be there. And apparently, I told him off, but don't remember doing it. What I do remember is him confronting me, asking me why I don't like him, and then things got kind of fuzzy. Next thing I remember was him threatening to "fuck me up", and then walking away. This was a big guy, and at the time I weighed 145 soaking wet, and he was too chickenshit to lay a hand on me.

XCashier
12-12-2007, 02:44 AM
I must admit to not having pigs that need feeding :(
BB would probably make the pigs sick anyway. But I understand that Florida has a lot of alligators... :devil:

Thank you for keeping us updated, Jester, and thank you for being a good friend to TD and a good human being. The world needs more people like you. :yourock:

Jester
12-12-2007, 04:29 AM
And he most likely won't. Most guys who pick on women do so because they're too chickenshit to tangle with another guy, even if that guy is half his size.

In most instances, I would agree with you. In this one, I wouldn't wager on that. BB has a history of violence, and not just against women. I won't go into the few details I know, but let's just say I am not "stepping into danger" not expecting there to be any. BB is a dangerous and violent person, and his rap sheet was not earned simply by pushing around his girlfriends. I have no doubt that if he felt it was necessary or justifiable, he would take a swing at me, or whoever TD happened to be with that day.

Amethyst Hunter
12-12-2007, 06:06 AM
Bodyguard with a baseball bat? Why, that would be Jester's Chaufferial Services. :wave:


Can I hire you? I know of some...people...that could use a little *cough* 'taking care of'... *shiftyeyes* :devil:

But seriously, I really hope that things go all right for TD and that the both of you will be safe. Big Bastard's arsehole seriously needs to make the acquaintance of a large, rusty chainsaw, asap.

crazylegs
12-12-2007, 12:16 PM
Big Bastard's arsehole seriously needs to make the acquaintance of a large, rusty chainsaw, asap.

No, no, no. Far too blunt.

Barbed wire inside bamboo, insert bamboo (with wire still inside) remove bamboo but leave wire, then pull. Then his arse and mouth will be truely interchangable.

Just in case its not been said Jester, Kudos to you for sticking up for and being there for your friends, Look after yourself, don't want to hear of Jester in hospital/jail now.

Jester
12-12-2007, 04:10 PM
Can I hire you? I know of some...people...that could use a little *cough* 'taking care of'... *shiftyeyes* :devil:

"Bodyguard" is not the same as "hit man." Yes, I know you were joking, just making a point that I am not hunting down BB, just trying to keep TD safe. And I should point out that I am not alone in this. Several other people have stepped up to the plate and are helping TD out. She is, for example, taking care of many things today while I sit here and type on my computer...another friend is driving her around. I don't want you folks to think that this is just me. It's not.

Just in case its not been said Jester, Kudos to you for sticking up for and being there for your friends, Look after yourself, don't want to hear of Jester in hospital/jail now.

Neither of which is very likely. At least not from THIS situation...... :lol:

UPDATE: The restraining order was approved as a temporary injunction. A court date has been set for the more permanent RO. At which TD is almost certain to come face to face with BB. She will have many friends with her, because while no one believes BB would try anything in court, just coming face to face with him will be emotionally taxing on TD. While I do hope the little bastard doesn't show up, which would be an automatic approval of the permanent RO (it going uncontested), I find that possibility to be very unlikely. I am sure in court he will try to paint himself out to not be a threat to TD, explaining his side of what happened. Which, if it weren't so tragic, might be rather comical in its completely disconnect from the facts. Also, at some point today TD should be able to pick up the medical report from the doctor's, which will definitely help in court. She has found a new place to live (another friend stepping up to help, who had an extra room), and is looking into getting a PO Box for her mail.

One small positive that has come out of this for me: it ennabled me to talk to my younger niece about the situation, not just about physically defending herself from a guy like BB, but how women in this situation often feel embarrassed or at fault about it, and while she probably couldn't understand that now, to know that it is nothing to be embarrassed about, and it is not the victim's fault, and that both those reactions are actually quite common, and that if anything like this ever happened to her, to know she could and should talk to her mom, the authorities, me, her ex-stepfather, or any other adult she knows she can trust. And that not all guys like BB show their true colors early on.

And I also got to discuss with her various physical ways to disable a potential male attacker. To her credit, she is a bright kid--when I first mentioned that, she immediately piped up with: "Throat, balls, knees." I was so proud. So, don't fuck with Jester, and don't fuck with Jester's niece, it would seem. :devil:

auntiem
12-12-2007, 04:27 PM
I'm glad she has a temp. order in place. A PO box is a great idea, but if the idea is to keep her residential address a secret then it won't work. She has to list it on the restraining order if she has one that lists a radius (stupid I know). Hopefully he won't figure that out.

Kara
12-12-2007, 04:45 PM
Wouldn't sending him to Kansas be punishment enough?

Hardy Har.

*Looks around barren Midwestern wasteland she lives in and sighs.*

Jester
12-12-2007, 04:51 PM
A PO box is a great idea, but if the idea is to keep her residential address a secret then it won't work. She has to list it on the restraining order...

As luck would have it, no. She asked about this at the court offices, and was told she can list her address as "confidential" on every part of the order he will be allowed to ever see. The court DID need her address, but that is a separate document that only the court has access to. Some courts are starting to wake up and smell the coffee in situations like this.

The RO states he can't come within X distance of her. Now, he could accidentally wander into the area she lives, but if he becomes aware of that, it is on him to leave said area. Him not knowing precisely where she lives is better than him being told "now don't go into that part of the forest, Mr. Wolf."

And with or without the RO, her job has banned him from the premises, period. He may not KNOW this yet, but if he ever enters said business, he will discover it rather quickly. Since he knows where she works, though, and either knows by now or will shortly know about the RO, he should be able to figure out that he can't go there.

RecoveringKinkoid
12-12-2007, 04:51 PM
I might ammend that to "eyes, knees, balls only if it's a gimee." Men instinctively guard their genitals. They EXPECT you to try for a crotch shot. Wasted shot, going for the balls right out of the gate. I think the eyes are the best target. Throat is good too, though. I just think eyes throw a person off more when you make that your target. It will take him by surpise and he might leave his junk unguarded for a second. THEN you go for the groin.

TD does understand that the restraining order will NOT protect her, I trust? Restraining orders are like toilet paper to people like this. It will, however, be something more she can charge him with, and that's a good thing. But it won't keep him off her.

Does she carry a weapon that she feels confident using? She might consider it. But only if she is ready and able to use it.

Jester
12-12-2007, 04:59 PM
I might ammend that to "eyes, knees, balls only if it's a gimee." Men instinctively guard their genitals. They EXPECT you to try for a crotch shot. Wasted shot, going for the balls right out of the gate. I think the eyes are the best target. Throat is good too, though. I just think eyes throw a person off more when you make that your target. It will take him by surpise and he might leave his junk unguarded for a second. THEN you go for the groin.

Problem with the eyes is it's hard to actually make your target. As my niece is slight of stature (translation: short) it may not always work for her. We DID discuss the whole crotch thing, not only that men may guard it, but also there are going to be certain situations where kicking or punching said jewels may not be feasible, due to being TOO close. In such situation, where possible, I told her that using her hand like a clamp, and squeezing down AS HARD AS SHE CAN is a pretty good idea. I also warned her, however, that with some men, such actions won't slow them down, but will only make them madder. (I am stunned by this....a mere scrape to the ya yas and I am down for the count!) We talked about a lot of things, including running away if possible, screaming your head off, contacting authorities, breaking kneecaps, stomping on feet, etc. Oh, damn. Should probably have told her how to box someone's ears. Mental note: next time. It was actually a long discussion, done while I was, ironically, wielding a knife. (I was cooking.) Smart kid. Pretty sure she got it. Now I need to talk to my OTHER nieces about it. *sigh* Fucking idiot men.

TD does understand that the restraining order will NOT protect her, I trust? Restraining orders are like toilet paper to people like this. It will, however, be something more she can charge him with, and that's a good thing. But it won't keep him off her.

Which is why she is still trying to get a warrant issued and have BB arrested. And if they won't do it, she will then be at the state attorney's office to file charges herself. We all know what a RO is. It's not useless, but it's not a shield itself.

Does she carry a weapon that she feels confident using?

I don't believe so. But I will talk to her about it. Thinking about maybe getting her some pepper spray. And as a joke, a baseball....so she can bean him in the eye the way she got "beaned." Crude? Sure. But she would get the joke, and laugh, so don't judge me too harshly.

protege
12-12-2007, 06:19 PM
And he most likely won't. Most guys who pick on women do so because they're too chickenshit to tangle with another guy, even if that guy is half his size.

Exactly. It's easier for them to pick on women. Some of you know the situation with my last girlfriend. For those who don't...

Before I met her, she was dating an asshole. He'd smack her around, stalk her, and just be an asshole towards her. After getting smacked around once too often, she dumped him, and it got worse--he'd follow her around campus, usually staying outside the buildings, and yelling at her in class :eek: Eventually, he started following us around when we'd go out to restaurants, the park, etc. Got so bad, we had to go to the next town over...

But, I got him good one afternoon. That was her nephew's birthday party...and her *mother* let the bastard inside the house :eek: After seeing how nervous she was, I scared the crap out of him. As we're washing up the dishes, I let it slip that if I found out he'd hurt her, or was hurting her, I'd kill him. With the last 3 words, I stuck the knife I was holding...into the counter! I know he saw that, because he was out the door, and I'd never seen a piece of shit move that fast :lol:

After that, he left her alone. He simply lacked the spheres to give me crap, even if I was half his size. Most abusers are like that--they look for people they can control or manipulate, and "puss out" when they can't.

Geek King
12-12-2007, 06:23 PM
Should probably have told her how to box someone's ears. Mental note: next time. It was actually a long discussion, done while I was, ironically, wielding a knife. (I was cooking.) Smart kid. Pretty sure she got it. Now I need to talk to my OTHER nieces about it. *sigh* Fucking idiot men.



First, Clapping both of the attackers ears at once will burst the eardrums and be very, very painful for anyone not hyped up on Meth or PCP-esque pain-ignoring drugs.

Second, if TD is interested in moving to Ohio, my complex has is available to renters, and is close to multiple resturaunts/stores where work can be had. PM me if you'd like details.

A girl I knew once had an abusive boyfriend, and took all the steps TD seems to be. One night, while a girlfriend of hers was keeping her company, abusive cocksucker broke in and shot her, the friend, then himself. I suggest TD move so the same doesn't happen to her. Abusers can go batshit crazy once things go public.

Jester
12-12-2007, 06:31 PM
First, Clapping both of the attackers ears at once will burst the eardrums and be very, very painful for anyone not hyped up on Meth or PCP-esque pain-ignoring drugs.

Prefreakincisely.

Second, if TD is interested in moving to Ohio...

A wonderful offer, but not very likely to happen. If she leaves here, she is almost certain to go to some other warm locale. Ohio, nothing personal, doesn't quite fit the bill. :lol:

Abusers can go batshit crazy once things go public.

They CAN, but most DON'T. Yes, shit like that happens. But that is, thankfully, the exception...not the rule. Not that we are ruling it out. Hell, we are hoping that if/when he is finally charged with a crime, they actually go for attempted murder rather than just assault and/or battery.

RecoveringKinkoid
12-12-2007, 08:09 PM
I told her that using her hand like a clamp, and squeezing down AS HARD AS SHE CAN is a pretty good idea.

Friend of mine, a man not much bigger than me, took down a neandertal twice his size doing just that. Took the fight right out of him. Guy was walking funny for two days.

TD probably has fingernails. If she doesn't, tell her to grow some at least on one hand (I play guitar, I can't have them on both). Digging into a guy's junk with her talons will get his attention.

Geek King
12-12-2007, 08:30 PM
A wonderful offer, but not very likely to happen. If she leaves here, she is almost certain to go to some other warm locale. Ohio, nothing personal, doesn't quite fit the bill. :lol:



No offence taken. I'm here because work is here. But I will say having seasons is nice, as opposed to having Hot-dry, Hot-wet, Hot-wetter, and Monsoon Season. :)

MystyGlyttyr
12-12-2007, 08:37 PM
No offence taken. I'm here because work is here. But I will say having seasons is nice, as opposed to having Hot-dry, Hot-wet, Hot-wetter, and Monsoon Season. :)

If one comes to Arkansas, one may have all four seasons within 36 hours. :lol: As well as an alternate season we refer to as "Treefrog".

crazylegs
12-12-2007, 08:55 PM
As well as an alternate season we refer to as "Treefrog".

If ofcourse the opportunity to come to the UK presents itself you will have to get used to the following weather
Drizzle
(very) occasionaly hot
(very) occasional snow
and more tornadoes per square mile than any other country on earth.

gunsage
12-13-2007, 04:01 AM
Abusers can go batshit crazy once things go public.
Yes, but that's when you use basic lawncare tactics. And by that, I mean you run over his face with a lawnmower. And even then, I only say that because I'm not TOO sadistic (plenty of Manhunt under my belt and plenty of tools for reenactment's sake). :D

Jester
12-13-2007, 06:24 AM
TD probably has fingernails.

Why yes. Yes she does. Didn't think of that. But hopefully she will never have to use them on this fuckhorn again.

I will say having seasons is nice, as opposed to having Hot-dry, Hot-wet, Hot-wetter, and Monsoon Season. :)

That describes many places, but not Key West.

We are NEVER dry!

Our seasons our Warm Autumn, Mild (Spring to you mainlanders) Winter, Windy Spring, and Hot & Still or Hurricane.


Not much to update on the situation. The police seem to be dragging their feet, for whatever reason. Tomorrow TD and her friend/new roommate are going to a victim's advocacy something or other that says they can help her light a fire under the cops, which I am beginning to think is necessary. Also, at some point very soon, with a law enforcement officer along for safety, security, and legality, we will be going to BB's residence to retrieve all of TD's possessions, clothes, papers, etc. Nothing else new to report, I am afraid.

Palsgraf
12-13-2007, 07:12 AM
I worked with one of these "But he really loves me!" women. She was sent home once because her face was so bruised she could hardly see, let alone wait tables. Her excuse was that she'd accidentally slammed her face in the car door. At least he learned not to mess up her face again since it interfered with their income - she worked while he was in-between jobs, of course.

Once while I was working there, she came to work terrified and a co-worker arranged for her to go to a house for battered women. The boyfriend was furious, driving around and around the restaurant to look in and try to see her. Police were called and he took off.

Everyone was proud of her for leaving him, and reminded her of it each day.

Then she abruptly quit and started working at another restaurant down the street. Why? Because she'd (1) moved back in with the slugger, (2) didn't want to admit it, and (3) was tired of everyone telling her how glad we were for her for dumping him.

They eventually moved out-of-state.

I often wondered if she had a father or brother, and why one of them didn't get involved in 'disposing of' her slugger.

I remember something from Snatch about feeding pigs ... (Yes, I know it was already referenced, but I did think about it before reading those replies).

If someone were to ever treat my daughter like that, I'm certain I could find a hungry pig or two to feed.

Do you know if TD has any family, and if they're aware of all this?

powerboy
12-13-2007, 08:58 AM
Jester, you are truly being a great friend. I hope that TD, will get everything taken care of

Jester
12-13-2007, 09:49 AM
I often wondered if she had a father or brother, and why one of them didn't get involved in 'disposing of' her slugger.

Do you know if TD has any family, and if they're aware of all this?

1. Very possible that the males in her family were of the same mentality as Ole Slugger. It would explain a lot of why she would put up with some idiocy. And it is not at all uncommon, either.

2. I don't know. I should probably ask.

Jester, you are truly being a great friend. I hope that TD, will get everything taken care of

I do what I can. But I can be quite a bastard as well. And damnit, don't you people forget it! http://www.spokanestreetracing.com/forums/images/smiles/bootyshake.gif

RecoveringKinkoid
12-13-2007, 03:24 PM
Probem with a lot of these women is that this is how they have brought up. They think it's normal because it happens in their family. Same with the men who do it to them. Mom gets beat up by dad. That's normal interaction to them.:(

MMATM
12-13-2007, 04:17 PM
Damn. I went off to do productive schoolwork for a couple of days, figuring I'd come back to hear the good news that BB had been arrested, and... nothing?

Disappointment. In response to your response to my last note, Jester: That's pretty troubling that BB would likely come after TD again.

Also, the self-defense technique I learned (hooray for being the only guy in a class of all girls) was groin-eyes-run like hell. Closeness, of course, can be eliminated by the use of the knee and/or thigh to strike up and forward. And while most guys will guard this region, they often expect punches and/or kicks, rather than a knee or thigh (which is altogether faster and gives more leverage).

As for weapons? Mace/pepper spray is a good option, though here in MA you need a license to carry it (not sure what the law is in FL). I don't think homemade pepper spray requires a license though. I carry a kubaton attached to my car keys which requires very little or no training (just hit, jab, punch, etc with it) and is legally concealable in the US (it's just a keychain, after all). Anything she can carry will likely give her a little more sense of security, which is honestly the most important part of carrying any weapon for legitimate purposes.

Also, a kubaton or pepper spray is generally not considered an "escalation" over bare-hand fighting in self-defense cases, as both are specifically designed for self-defense.

Ok, that's my spiel. Good on you for helping out and for your testicular fortitude in dealing with BB. Best of luck with the warrant and the victim's advocacy dealie.

crazylegs
12-13-2007, 06:10 PM
Also, a kubaton or pepper spray is generally not considered an "escalation" over bare-hand fighting in self-defense cases, as both are specifically designed for self-defense.



If you can get hold of PAVA spray, its more effective than most (UK police forces are slowely converting to it), it effectivly closes the eyes rendering your assailant about as threatening as an asthmatic rabbit.

Jester
12-13-2007, 06:33 PM
Dumb question.....what kind of store would one go to to BUY pepper spray or such items? I haven't the foggiest idea.

Eireann
12-13-2007, 06:34 PM
Try a gun store.

Broomjockey
12-13-2007, 06:37 PM
Also some outdoors stores (Though admittedly not in your area) carry things like that as bear repellant.

MMATM
12-13-2007, 06:39 PM
rendering your assailant about as threatening as an asthmatic rabbit.

A couple-hundred-pound asthmatic rabbit is still pretty dangerous, especially once the whole "the bitch fought back" testosterone/adrenaline cocktail starts to kick in. I do like the idea of a stronger-than-pepper-spray pepper spray, though.

"Yes, yes. To crazylegs you listen. The cave. Remember your failure at the cave!"

EDIT:
Also some outdoors stores (Though admittedly not in your area) carry things like that as bear repellant.

...And a couple-hundred-pound asthmatic rabbit-bear would probably be repelled by bear repellent even more effectively. Broomjockey's stuff gets my vote. The badder the better, in my opinion.

Jester
12-13-2007, 07:29 PM
Try a gun store.

Great idea.

Now, when you live on a small tropical island that has no gun stores, where would you go about finding pepper spray type stuff? :lol:

MMATM
12-13-2007, 07:30 PM
http://www.weaponmasters.com
They have plenty of interesting, uh, "stuff". Also, though they have restrictions on where they ship certain items (i.e: they won't ship to places where it is illegal to own things/things require a license, generally speaking).

EDIT: Look in their "self defense items" section. Duh.

rvdammit
12-13-2007, 07:32 PM
Great idea.

Now, when you live on a small tropical island that has no gun stores, where would you go about finding pepper spray type stuff? :lol:

Off the island? Interwebs? :p

crazylegs
12-13-2007, 07:33 PM
A couple-hundred-pound asthmatic rabbit is still pretty dangerous, especially once the whole "the bitch fought back" testosterone/adrenaline cocktail starts to kick in. I do like the idea of a stronger-than-pepper-spray pepper spray, though.

"Yes, yes. To crazylegs you listen. The cave. Remember your failure at the cave!"



It doesn't matter if Pillock brains does try to fight back, unlike CS which makes you angry PAVA means you *are* incapable of fighting back as you can't see!

Uh, cave? Some Star Wars reference I'm missing?

http://buy.ecplaza.net/search/1s1nf20sell/pava.html for PAVA

MMATM
12-13-2007, 07:52 PM
Indeed some Star Wars reference. In this case, you're Obi-Wan. Translation: your advice is good.

Eireann
12-13-2007, 07:59 PM
Okay, TD may have to make her own spray, as suggested earlier. Find a small, reliable spray bottle - one that can't be damaged easily - and fill 'er up.

Rahmota
12-14-2007, 01:58 AM
Now, when you live on a small tropical island that has no gun stores, where would you go about finding pepper spray type stuff?
Self defense suppliers on the web like has already been mentioned.
Sometimes sporting goods stores will carry OC spray.
I have actually found police grade OC at pawn shops before. (Dont ask dont tell places mainly)
Umm Flea markets? I dont know if there are any around you but still...
PAVA is not common around here but like was mentioned the web can be an amazing place.

Umm how about a TASER or stun gun? I can tell you from personal experience that a hundred K of juice running through your body unless you are so hyped up that GI JOE couldnt bring you down you will not be doing much for a few moments. Long enough for any victim to get away. (And how I know for sure was there was an argument about the effectiveness of them in a class I was taking for law enforcement studies. Lets just say after having one of them shoved in my gut I was looking at the floor wondering which direction my toes went. This was a week or two after the OC spray class. Where we got sprayed with OC to know how it affected people.) Though I dont know what your particular local laws are about that sort of stuff.

As for improvised weponas don't forget the common car keys. If you carry enough of them they can make freddy kreuger look unarmed. Hide them in your hand as a sap, poke them throuh your fingers for scratchign poking.
Not as effective as a kubaton but again if you dont have it use what you have.

Glad you're at least standing by her. Sounds like those guys in blue down there definately need a fire lit under them. This jerkwad should have already had a nice long visit to the barred hotel.

CaroPhoenix
12-14-2007, 10:19 AM
As for improvised weponas don't forget the common car keys. If you carry enough of them they can make freddy kreuger look unarmed. Hide them in your hand as a sap, poke them throuh your fingers for scratchign poking.
Not as effective as a kubaton but again if you dont have it use what you have.


I completely forgot about the keys poking through the fingers weapon. I remember being told that when I worked at the local mall during Christmas time. Female employees were being targeted by at least one guy/maybe more. That was one of the things I was told to do.

I actually got a little keychain thing of pepper spray through a mail order catalog (can't rememer which one) shortly after some guy followed me to my car, but fortunately, when I got to my car, the car door next to me opened up and it was a co-worker getting out so we chatted while I got into my car, and I waved as I drove off. Whew.

Jester
12-15-2007, 05:40 AM
So I was talking to TD tonight.

I believe I mentioned on this thread that I had told her that I was posting her story, and that she had pretty much an entire website behind her. And she was touched.

Well, tonight was an interesting conversation.

JESTER: "Remember I told you that everyone on the website is pulling for you?"
TD: "Yeah."
JESTER: "Something I didn't tell you....a lot of them think of you as a hero."
TD: "Me? A hero? Yeah, right. I can't even get my life in order, how the hell am I a hero?"
JESTER: "Because you are doing something that very few women in your position have had the guts to do, and are following through on it rather than just repeating your mistakes, and are doing all this despite the cops dragging their feet the whole time. You may not see it as being a hero, but a lot of other people, who are sick to death of watching other women repeat their mistakes over and over again, do. They really do."

TD thought about it, and teared up a bit.

Thanks, guys. From TD and especially from me. Thank you. Thank you.

DarthRetard
12-15-2007, 06:04 AM
A little Mixed Martial Arts training never hurt anybody either. Well, never hurt th eperson who knew it, that is.

crazylegs
12-15-2007, 07:43 PM
A little Mixed Martial Arts training never hurt anybody either. Well, never hurt th eperson who knew it, that is.

Although I agree with that statement in principle, you do need to train a fair length of time to get muscle memory i.e. the instant *correct* reflex, something that would maintain a decent distance is probably the best defence at the mo (until such time as the training has become reflex that is).

Jester,

Any further update on what the police are doing, and whether you've had to light any fires under them yet?

Jester
12-15-2007, 08:09 PM
A little Mixed Martial Arts training never hurt anybody either. Well, never hurt th eperson who knew it, that is.

I mentioned mace/pepper spray/etc to TD last night when we were talking, and she thought it might be a good idea, and without my suggesting it, she said she was thinking about taking some self-defense classes. I think it's a great idea, personally.

Any further update on what the police are doing, and whether you've had to light any fires under them yet?

I was getting really pissed off today at the foot-dragging and lack of action on the part of the particular department responsible for this whole thing. And I was getting even more pissed off when I was at work today and I saw in the local newspaper that yesterday the cops had arrested a dude that had met a woman in a downtown bar, took her back to his place, and when she refused his advances, tried to force himself on her and then beat the crap out of her. My thoughts were somewhat along the lines of, "Oh, that's just f---ing great. If you don't know the guy, they arrest him, but if you do, even if it's just as brutal, they don't consider it a crime." And I was thinking of various strategies for dealing with all of this, getting something, ANYTHING going.

And then, just as I was working myself into a good ole rage, I got a text message from TD with the following news:

A warrant for BB has been issued, with a pretty serious charge, and a bond has been set. No arrest as of yet that we know of, but FINALLY something is getting done. We hope he will be arrested today or tonight, so that TD can finally get her stuff from his place, if any of it is left.

More news as it develops.

crazylegs
12-15-2007, 08:21 PM
A warrant for BB has been issued, with a pretty serious charge, and a bond has been set. No arrest as of yet that we know of, but FINALLY something is getting done.

Thats great news, is there a Domstic Abuse Unit within your local police service/PD/Constabulary that you can get in touch with the make sure the momentum is continued?

Jester
12-15-2007, 08:47 PM
Crazylegs, without going into too much details, TD has been and remains in contact with a victims advocacy group, I believe with an official capacity, that is helping things move along. So, yes.

sportsmom
12-16-2007, 02:34 AM
Jester, may I suggest a new "theme song" for TD? I like this one in particular...


Miranda Lambert-Gunpowder and Lead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_VkewPDAMU&NR=1)


Glad to hear they've got a warrant out for him.

Jester
12-16-2007, 01:10 PM
Sportsmom, I really don't like country music.

BUT I'll make a serious exception for that one, not just because it fits all too perfectly, but also because it is a damn good song. AND it talk about being on a "white rock." (Key West is often referred to as The Rock by people who live here.)

AND the chick is pretty damn hot, too! :lol:

I'm actually afraid to show this to Tiny Dancer, because it may give her some ideas that I don't want her to have. :lol:

sportsmom
12-16-2007, 02:01 PM
Sportsmom, I really don't like country music.

BUT I'll make a serious exception for that one, not just because it fits all too perfectly, but also because it is a damn good song. AND it talk about being on a "white rock." (Key West is often referred to as The Rock by people who live here.)

AND the chick is pretty damn hot, too! :lol:

I'm actually afraid to show this to Tiny Dancer, because it may give her some ideas that I don't want her to have. :lol:

Yeah, Miranda Lambert rocks like that. May I also suggest a couple of other options, not for this situation, but just of Miranda Lambert?

Crazy Ex-Girlfriend (http://youtube.com/watch?v=9PqEuM-4Hk4)

Kerosene (http://youtube.com/watch?v=76PL7l78_pw)

Teysa
12-16-2007, 03:24 PM
I know I came into this thread late, but my prayers and good wishes are with TD during this time. I hope that where ever she ends up, she'll be able to find peace and develop as good of a support network as she has now with you and her other friends.

Jester
12-16-2007, 11:57 PM
Latest update: Through the grapevine I heard that BB was going to surrender to the authorities tonight. I don't know how reliable my information is, but that is what I heard. As of right this moment, however, according to the appropriate website, he has not yet been arrested.

RecoveringKinkoid
12-17-2007, 06:01 PM
So I was talking to TD tonight.

I believe I mentioned on this thread that I had told her that I was posting her story, and that she had pretty much an entire website behind her. And she was touched.

Well, tonight was an interesting conversation.

JESTER: "Remember I told you that everyone on the website is pulling for you?"
TD: "Yeah."
JESTER: "Something I didn't tell you....a lot of them think of you as a hero."
TD: "Me? A hero? Yeah, right. I can't even get my life in order, how the hell am I a hero?"
JESTER: "Because you are doing something that very few women in your position have had the guts to do, and are following through on it rather than just repeating your mistakes, and are doing all this despite the cops dragging their feet the whole time. You may not see it as being a hero, but a lot of other people, who are sick to death of watching other women repeat their mistakes over and over again, do. They really do."

TD thought about it, and teared up a bit.

Thanks, guys. From TD and especially from me. Thank you. Thank you.

Maybe that will be what it takes. That little bit of strength, that little bit of knowing what it's like to have someone believe in her.

Thanks for sharing that, Jester. ;)

Jester
12-18-2007, 05:31 AM
Much is afoot.

First, a bit of background that I failed to provide earlier that I have been meaning to mention. To wit, BB has told TD in the past that "where he comes from, this is the way it's done." Meaning that this is the way men treat women. Some people would say he is being "old school."

Well.....I kind of know where he is from, geographically speaking, as do other people I know. Means nothing. Many people from that same area are decent people, and would never think of this as normal or acceptable behavior. As for the "old school" nonsense? My father was born in 1932, my stepfather in 1931, and my two grandfathers in 1897 and 1901. THEY are old school. I also have met many an old ranch hand and cowboy out in Arizona. THEY are old school. Not ONE of them would ever think to raise their hand to a woman, let alone one they professed love for. My father had one hell of a temper, and would yell and scream and shout, and he and my mother got in many arguments. While Dad was not above threatening the kids with his belt (and occasionally using it, though I can't say I actually remember that happening), he never once hit Mom, nor even raised his hand to do so, nor did Mom ever fear that happening. They were just arguing. And the old cowboys I know were very old school. So old school that if they saw BB do what BB did to TD, they would be shocked, appalled, and pissed off, and deal with it in an old school way: knock BB upside the head to knock him out, roll him up in a blanket, tie that to the bumper of a truck, and drag him through the desert behind said truck. They call this a desert drag, my friends. THAT is old school. HIS shit? Is just lame.

Item #2: I mentioned a couple of days ago that finally the appropriate agency sought and received a warrant for BB's arrest on the charge of battery. Well, BB got wind of this (don't ask for the details, not clear on them myself, but apparently he knew after he was released from cuffs the first time that something might be following), and after a couple of days, turned himself in today. Now, we weren't certain about this, as the cops never called TD (they have been rather exasperating this whole time, to be honest), but TD heard about it from an old neighbor. To double check this, I called the jail, and sure enough, he was in fact in custody. And there was much rejoicing! :cheers: :party: :drink:

Item #3: With BB in custody, we figured it would be a great time to go get TD's stuff from his house. So, we jumped in the Jestermobile and headed that way. After a bit, I had a thought, and called back the jail to make sure he was still in custody. He was. How long would it be till he was out? We knew he'd have to post a bond, but we didn't know if he had. Turns out when we called the second time he HAD already posted bond, but it would be about an hour or two at the least before he was fully processed out. Thank goodness for bureaucracy! We raced up to his place, got her stuff in record time, threw it in the Jestermobile, and were out of there lightning fast, successful in our "surgical strike" of getting in, getting her stuff, and getting out. After all, we didn't REALLY know how much time we had....the staff at the jail might be in error with the time frame. Lord knows the cops have not been the most informative folks in this whole situation up to now! Anyway, the way we figure it, he waited the couple days to turn himself in until he had arranged the finances so he would be able to bond out, either through a bail bondsman or on his own. Sneaky little devil, that one.

But we got in and out fast, got back to her new place, unloaded everything quickly (I called in my friends who lived in the neighborhood to help unload) and got TD out to a bar to drink heavily, which she did in fact do. And everyone was happy! And there was much rejoicing! :cheers: :party: :drink:

But TD is still worried, and nervous, and scared, and on Wednesday morning, she gets to go into court to attempt to get the temporary restraining order permanent. Which will put her one more step towards ending this nightmare. Of course, the step after that will be even more "entertaining": his adjudication on the battery charge. I have no doubt he will plead not guilty to that. At least, I hope he will, so when the medical and police reports of his handiwork are presented, the little bastard will get the maximum sentence possible.

Now, I have offered to be there Wednesday for the restraining order hearing, but TD seems determined to do this one on her own (with the official victim's advocate counselors), as she doesn't want to have the crutch (her word) of her friends' moral support. That being said, I have told her that if she changes her mind, to call me no matter how early, and I will be there.

Side story: Saturday night (the night of me sending ten foot flames into the night sky from the back of a boat for the entertainment of the teeming masses) TD was at work, waiting tables. At one of her tables was a group of bikers, three guys and one girl. (Please, don't take the following as an indictment of all bikers--most of y'all rock.) At one point, when one of the bikers was passing her coming back from the restroom, he noticed her (now fading) black eye, and said, "So, was that from the first or second time you didn't listen?" I guess he thought he was funny. He wasn't. TD was initially stunned into not saying anything, but finally looked him in the eye and said "FUCK YOU!"

She then tried to give the table away to another server, but when the other server found out why, the other server said "Hell no, I am not serving that prick!" and went and told the manager about the incident. At which point the manager marched out to the table and, despite their food being just about ready, told them in no uncertain terms that they were no longer welcome in that establishment. And basically had the business eat an $80 tab. The good thing in all this, besides the manager rocking and TD not having to deal with that asshat, is that the one woman in the group apparently was all over the asshat about it, trying to get him to apologize to TD, and we have no doubt she gave him shit for being the cause of them being tossed and not getting the dinner they had ordered.

I TOLD you there was much afoot!

More updates after Wednesday morning's hearing!

Saydrah
12-18-2007, 05:44 AM
Jester, with your posts to read, I don't need a life. I'm exhausted, confused, and elated already. I could just stay home with pizza delivery and intimate female items and live vicariously through you.

Jester
12-18-2007, 06:00 AM
Amusingly, several of my friends have told me that in the past.....well, without the intimate female items, that is. My life is definitely entertaining, if nothing else!

Amethyst Hunter
12-18-2007, 06:01 AM
At least, I hope he will, so when the medical and police reports of his handiwork are presented, the little bastard will get the maximum sentence possible.


I suppose it's wishful thinking to hope that the maximum sentence would consist of :chipper: ... :devil: *leads crowd in chorus of 'CHIP -PER! CHIP - PER!'*

But seriously, may BB get his ass handed to him on a silver platter with a garnish.

At one point, when one of the bikers was passing her coming back from the restroom, he noticed her (now fading) black eye, and said, "So, was that from the first or second time you didn't listen?" I guess he thought he was funny. He wasn't. TD was initially stunned into not saying anything, but finally looked him in the eye and said "FUCK YOU!"


...wow. Just...wow. :jawdrop:

Good on TD for telling that rank spoogebag off! *waves TD flag* And kudos to the manager for giving him the boot!

marasbaras
12-18-2007, 07:42 AM
Wow ... let's hope that Big Boy falls underneath a semi and is accidentally run over ten or twelve times.

marasbaras
12-18-2007, 07:53 AM
I might ammend that to "eyes, knees, balls only if it's a gimee." Men instinctively guard their genitals. They EXPECT you to try for a crotch shot. Wasted shot, going for the balls right out of the gate. I think the eyes are the best target. Throat is good too, though. I just think eyes throw a person off more when you make that your target. It will take him by surpise and he might leave his junk unguarded for a second. THEN you go for the groin.

Knees first. Throat is a bit of a reach as the girl is usually shorter than the boy.

Groin: we'll block it. 99% of the time. I had a psycho (she had the controlled-like-oxy psychoactive prescription drugs to prove it! which I found out too late) girlfriend at one time in my distant past. While we were breaking up, she went for a cheap groin shot. I blocked it without even thinking.

Nail the guy in the knees. While he's crouched over a little ... go for the neck and eyes.

XCashier
12-18-2007, 02:30 PM
Good on TD for telling that rank spoogebag off! *waves TD flag* And kudos to the manager for giving him the boot!
And for the lady with the party for ripping the jerk a new one! Seriously, some folks just have no couth whatsoever.

I too am hoping for the maximum for BB. Though a fun ride through Mr. Chipper would be good, too. :chipper: Maybe use his toxic remains for weed control or roach bait? :devil:

Amethyst Hunter
12-18-2007, 04:22 PM
Maybe use his toxic remains for weed control or roach bait? :devil:

I don't know...that could constitute destruction of the environment and insect abuse. :lol:

Geek King
12-18-2007, 04:25 PM
Now, I have offered to be there Wednesday for the restraining order hearing, but TD seems determined to do this one on her own (with the official victim's advocate counselors), as she doesn't want to have the crutch (her word) of her friends' moral support. That being said, I have told her that if she changes her mind, to call me no matter how early, and I will be there.



Now that she has seen the light about being a punching bag, the next lesson she needs is that friendship is never a crutch. It is a support, and sometimes a load-bearing wall, but never a crutch.

Nontheless, I'm sure you'll be there for her in spirit, if not in person. Let her know she has people who have never even met her, barring your descriptions of her, who are pulling for her to kick that bastard's kiester in court.

iradney
12-18-2007, 06:09 PM
Now that she has seen the light about being a punching bag, the next lesson she needs is that friendship is never a crutch. It is a support, and sometimes a load-bearing wall, but never a crutch.


No, Geek King, friendship is a wonderbra. It gives you lift and increases the size of your...er...confidence :)

Broomjockey
12-18-2007, 06:11 PM
No, Geek King, friendship is a wonderbra. It gives you lift and increases the size of your...er...confidence :)

Maybe friendship is a jockstrap. It supports you, helps protect your sensitive side, and can be gross sometimes. :lol:

Saydrah
12-18-2007, 06:14 PM
Friendship is a thong. Sometimes it can be a real pain in the ass, and on a bad day it gets crappy, but it covers you where you're sensitive, keeps you safe from harm (read: jean chafing), and it makes you feel good knowing you've got it on underneath everything else, and that shines through and makes you strut and look sexy.

rvdammit
12-18-2007, 10:53 PM
Friendship is helping move the body.

sportsmom
12-19-2007, 01:20 PM
Friendship is helping move the body.

no, no, no ;)

"A friend will help you move, a GOOD friend will help you move a body";)

We used that saying a lot at my last job. A store full of women with quite a few jerky ex-husbands and ex-boyfriends floating around.

Pedersen
12-19-2007, 04:20 PM
no, no, no ;)

"A friend will help you move, a GOOD friend will help you move a body";)

And a best friend will be sitting beside you in the cell saying "Damn. I have no idea how we're going to make bail from this one."

Emrld
12-19-2007, 04:22 PM
I have to add in my cheers for TD and Jester.
Your friends can be a reflection of you . . . .
so wow Jester appears to be a really great person judging by those he holds near and dear.

Jester
12-19-2007, 10:19 PM
so wow Jester appears to be a really great person judging by those he holds near and dear.

Shocking, ain't it? And yet I am still single. Go figure.

I have a small bit of good news and a huge stinking rotting shitheap of bad news.

First the good news.

At which point the manager marched out to the table and, despite their food being just about ready, told them in no uncertain terms that they were no longer welcome in that establishment.

I found out what the "no uncertain terms" were. He walked up to the table and, without preamble, said, "Get the fuck out of here." Fucking love that guy. And they did, without argument. They knew.

Now the bad news. Brace yourselves. It ain't pretty.

Today, after texting back and forth with TD many times, she called me. But it wasn't her on the end of the phone. It was BB.

Only two ways he could get her phone: kidnapping her or her going back to him. Based upon other things that have happened that I have not posted here, I do not think he kidnapped her. Which means the one time I thought a girl was going to break this stupid cycle....she didn't. As far as we can tell, she went back to the fucker.

So BB told me "It was an accident. I didn't punch her in the face." To which I replied "Fuck you, asshole. I hope you rot." And then I hung up in anger. Later, after I calmed down, I sent the following text message to her phone (I don't have his number), addressed to him: "BB, everyone--including you-- knows it wasn't an accident. Everyone knows your a fucking scumbag. Most of us look forward to dancing over your mutilated corpse." As of this posting, I have not heard back on that one.

Today was the court date for the permanent restraining order. TD did not make that date, and it seems the matter is going to die. Sadly, eventually, she probably will die too, either physically at his hands, or spiritually from the abusive relationship. All indications are that she is back with him, and that means that any further beatdowns will be met by uncaring from the cops, indifference from the courts, and sad and exasperated shrugs from TD's friends.

So while this started as a happy story, and had all the indications of maybe ending on a positive note, it seems that the ending is in fact tragic. I apologize for that, my friends. Life sucks, and even if this shitstain got run over by a semi-truck tomorrow, it seems obvious that TD would just go out and find a new and similarly abusive asshole to fill his fucknugget shoes.

I wish it were different this time.

I really do.



I'm done. Stick a fork in me.


Fuck it all.

Saydrah
12-19-2007, 10:24 PM
There are not enough facepalm.jpgs in the world to express my dismay at TD's continual repetition of her abuse.

Is there any way of convincing her to start couples therapy with him, or even better, therapy alone? Maybe a professional could tell her what she won't hear from her friends- the cycle of self-retraumatizing action is only breakable by getting out of that comfort zone.

CaroPhoenix
12-19-2007, 10:55 PM
Jester,

There are absolutely no words in the language to express how I feel at this moment. As I sit here, at my dining room table, reading this on my laptop, I started to cry. I can barely see what I'm typing right now.

I feel punched in the gut and horribly betrayed in some way. And this is me, a faceless person at a computer in Virginia who is nowhere near you and TD.

I really hoped she'd get the Restraining Order. I really hoped she'd move away and have a happier life than the one she could have with BB.

I'm sorry to read this. I'm sorry you and your friends had to go through this.

And though I know this might sound cruel, I feel no sorrow or pity for TD going back to BB.* She had a chance to stand up for herself, letting BB know he couldn't get away with what he did, and she threw it away, she let him know that he can do whatever he can to her, and there will be no repercussions.

IDR



*If you're going to flame me on this statement please do it at either www.fratching.com or through PMs. Thank-you.

Jester
12-19-2007, 11:29 PM
My mom admitted that she put up with it for as long as she did because she was afraid of being alone. Could it be that TD feels the same way? That an abusive SOB as a boyfriend is better than none at all?

Exactly the same. She has voiced this to me, and even though intellectually she KNOWS that going back to him is a mistake, emotionally is a whole other issue. She said she just wanted her life back, and that she wanted him gone, but apparently she couldn't follow through.

And though I know this might sound cruel, I feel no sorrow or pity for TD going back to BB.*

*If you're going to flame me on this statement

Why would I flame you? You're right! I agree. I care for her, and I hope at some point in the future she sees that, as she herself recently said to me, "she is better than this, she deserves better than this, she did nothing to deserve this." But I won't be surprised if she doesn't.



The fact is, kids, that she did what millions of women do all the time. And that at some time in the future, I will probably be attending her funeral and/or his murder trial.

But despite what someone said, no, I probably won't be there for her again in the future. I love her, I care for her, she is a longtime friend, and I will be there for her as far as a shoulder to cry on....but as I told her days ago, if she goes back to him, the courts, police, and her friends are going to be far less likely to help her again in the future. I won't stick my neck out like this for her again. Why should I? What does it get me, other than a place on the shit list of a dude with a violent history? Nothing. A bunch of us stuck our necks out for TD, and we got burned for trying to help someone. Most of us won't do it again. I am a good guy, but I am NOT a saint, and I probably WON'T help her out next time.

And if any of you have a problem with that, well, I'm sorry, but there's only so many times you can get burned before you stop sticking your hand in the same fire. I did everything I could for TD, but I can't run her life or make her make the decisions that she has to make.

I am done. Stick a fork in me. And fuck it all to hell.

XCashier
12-19-2007, 11:53 PM
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I am done. Stick a fork in me. And fuck it all to hell.
I understand where you are coming from, Jester. I'm disappointed, disgusted and frustrated, and I'm nowhere near the situation. You did the best you could, did everything a friend and decent man could, went the distance, and the whole situation went belly-up. I don't blame you for saying "fuck it."

There are plenty of nice, decent men out there who treat women as fellow human beings and don't belittle, play mind games or rearrange their faces. Why do some women insist on dating abuser after abuser?! What does it take to wake these women up to reality?!

So much for the happy ending. :(

MadMike
12-19-2007, 11:55 PM
As far as we can tell, she went back to the fucker.


Oh, hell no! :no: :pissed:

Like I said toward the beginning of this thread, I too had a friend who was in an abusive relationship, and she'd be crying on my shoulder about him the one day, and then going back to him the next. I felt so angry, helpless, and frustrated, as I'm sure you do now.

While he most likely will hurt her again, it's still possible she gets out of the situation alive. It may come down to an incident that she considers the final straw. With my friend, the final straw was when she found out he was dating another woman behind her back, with neither woman knowing about the other until they accidentally stumbled across each other. ("Yeah, I know him! We've been dating for a couple months now.") Not sure how he got one woman let alone two. He was one ugly fuck.

Hopefully she comes to her senses before something really bad happens.

Jester
12-20-2007, 12:04 AM
It may come down to an incident that she considers the final straw.

Hopefully she comes to her senses before something really bad happens.

This should have been the final straw.

He beat the living shit out of her, and then left her unconscious outside their home until she came to.

Then he told her, despite her memory and the physical evidence contradicting it, that she had simply fallen out of the truck.

She had one hell of a black eye. She had bruises all over her arms and torso. She had bruised ribs and could not work for several days. She had trouble even walking. She had finger-shaped bruises on her throat. Even the cops laughed at his version of what happened.

If this wasn't the last straw, I don't know what qualifies. Most of the people who were willing to help her this time are far less likely to stick their necks out next time. He is banned from her place of business, but if I read him right (and so far I have), he will make sure she quits there soon, so that he doesn't have her working in an environment so completely against him in every way. He has pulled the wool over her eyes, and the nicest people I know are just throwing up their hands and saying fuck it.

This guy beats the crap out of a gorgeous, intelligent woman, and she comes back to him.

Me, I can't even get a date lately. Maybe I should abandon my charm, niceness, and sense of humor in favor of a bad attitude and a good right hook. It seems to work.

Fuck this whole situation, fuck guys like him, and fuck girls like her. Idiocy, all of it.

MMATM
12-20-2007, 12:09 AM
Fuck it all.

Call me a heartless bastard if you will, but I'd probably spend a while deliberately avoiding TD if I were in your shoes, Jester. If she'd rather go back to some abusive shitstain on the pants of the wasted asshole of society, then I'd cut ties and let her realize just how stupid her decision is. And it's just that: stupid.

Not only is she now terminally fucked in the eyes of the courts, but the hard evidence she got (doctor's report, photos, et cetera) is now just ammo for a "see? she fell down the stairs once before and tried to pin it on me" defense. So if she wasn't already screwed if she ever tries to get a restraining order again, that would help prevent it from ever happening.

On a final note: shithead moves like this are the reason the cops were so slow to act in the first place. Shame on TD, she might have just well ended another woman's life indirectly. :pissed:

MadMike
12-20-2007, 12:18 AM
This should have been the final straw.


Yeah, it should have, but when do things ever go the way they should?

It was the same way with my friend. Every time he laid a hand on her, every time he made her cry, ever time he made her feel like she was worthless should have been the last time. But it wasn't, and even I got to the point where I started to lose my patience, and responded to her claims of it being over with a cold, cynical "Yeah, right!"

I also understand your frustration, because back then I was also the nice guy who couldn't get a date, while the abusive assholes seemed to have no trouble in that department.

Like I said, she eventually did see the light and get rid of him. Hopefully your friend does the same before it's too late.

CaroPhoenix
12-20-2007, 12:40 AM
Why would I flame you? You're right! I agree. I care for her, and I hope at some point in the future she sees that, as she herself recently said to me, "she is better than this, she deserves better than this, she did nothing to deserve this." But I won't be surprised if she doesn't.

Thank you Jester for understanding. :) Some people might see me as being heartless. I was actually the same way with my sister and her first husband. (He mentally, emotionally and phsycially abused her and yet she waffled for a year before she finally left him because she "loved him." It took him cheating on her and stealing money from her to get her to leave). I washed my hands of her until she left the guy.

I was never physically abused by any of the guys I dated (though they mentally/emotionally abused me, and I even had one who cheated on me and blamed me for his cheating!) However, I had male friends who thought it was okay to emotionally and mentally abuse me. (And then were surprised when I walked away and stopped associating with them, even now, I will have nothing to do with them, and I get nauseous when I think about them, or see them in a public place).

MMATM
12-20-2007, 12:54 AM
I forgot to ask this before, since I was (and am) royally pissed off, but weren't these two engaged before this incident? I hope they're not going ahead with the wedding, because if they are TD really has no time to realize what an idiot she's being before she's essentially dead meat. In which case the score would round out to [BB: infinity, TD: zero]. If not worse.

Kusanagi
12-20-2007, 01:05 AM
The only thing I can say in this situation is that it's people like TD that make the cops drag their feet on cases like this.

She not only hurt herself, but she hurt every other woman that's been in that position - one that truly wants to get out.

I can't say anything else because what I would say is too harsh to post on this board.

Jester
12-20-2007, 01:33 AM
Call me a heartless bastard if you will, but I'd probably spend a while deliberately avoiding TD if I were in your shoes, Jester.

I don't think you're a heartless bastard, but you aren't in my shoes. I may not be a saint, as I have said, but I AM a nice guy, and I won't turn my back on a friend. I disagree strongly with her decision, and I feel like I am beating my head against the wall, but if everyone just up and abandons her, who will she be able to turn to if for nothing else emotional support? I can't be that heartless. It's not me. I DO understand your frustration, though. I feel it too. Something tells me, though, that BB is going to go out of his way to have TD avoid ME. After all, I pretty much told him what I thought of him when I said I look forward to "dancing over his mutilated corpse." I didn't really mince words on that one.


I forgot to ask this before, since I was (and am) royally pissed off, but weren't these two engaged before this incident? I hope they're not going ahead with the wedding...

They were. I have no idea what is going to happen, as all this is, to borrow the phrase, breaking news. And obviously I have not talked to TD much since it all blew up. As I said above, I kind of doubt BB is going to allow TD to have much contact with me after this. He has to know that I am not the only one that is telling TD to get the fuck away from him, but I have effectively made myself the face (or at least one of the faces) of that whole movement. I have effectively marked myself in his eyes.

I can't say anything else because what I would say is too harsh to post on this board.

Nothing most of us haven't thought or implied already, I'm sure.

Pedersen
12-20-2007, 02:00 AM
Jester, I have been reading this as often as a new post is made in this thread (well, almost). I have been rooting for TD to put this guy away, and for her to get a better life than the one with him.

TD was a hero in my eyes. Someone who actually would do what's right not just for her, but for anybody who might have come after her. She was protecting herself, and any other woman who could enter his life.

She's failed a whole bunch of people by doing this. Everybody who's been rooting for her. All the women who needed one more positive example to look to, so they could get out of such abusive relationships. Her friends. Her family. You.

She's failed so many people, just because she's afraid to be alone.

I'm disappointed and disgusted by her, almost more than I am by BB. If you ever do see her again, please tell her how much she's failed everybody else. And that I hope she is keeping the company that she holds so dear that beatings are worth it.

Right now, I gotta think she deserves him.

MMATM
12-20-2007, 02:46 AM
I don't think you're a heartless bastard, but you aren't in my shoes. I may not be a saint, as I have said, but I AM a nice guy, and I won't turn my back on a friend. I disagree strongly with her decision, and I feel like I am beating my head against the wall, but if everyone just up and abandons her, who will she be able to turn to if for nothing else emotional support?

<snip>

He has to know that I am not the only one that is telling TD to get the fuck away from him, but I have effectively made myself the face (or at least one of the faces) of that whole movement. I have effectively marked myself in his eyes.

Part I:
I'll have to concede that not knowing TD has impaired my judgment of her situation a bit. I was in a similar (though admittedly not as serious) situation recently with a friend (who's become quite the thundercunt as a result of the incident(s) in question) and her abusive, loud, obnoxious, literally off-his-meds, frat-boy boyfriend. I felt often that continuing to help wasn't worth it, but didn't bail, and now almost wish I had.
Helping her through many a drunk "never going back to that asshole" night, her leading on one of my best friends before harshly blowing him off for (you guessed it) said asshole, becoming more and more of a bitch to her roommate (who also happens to be my girlfriend), and now, ultimately, trying my best not to associate with her.
Will I still stick up for her? Sure. Especially to said blown-off friend, who still harbors a bit of a grudge over the whole deal. But only because she eventually made up her mind to leave the asshole (demanding, uncaring, emotionally abusive, obnoxious, and of course cheating were some of his *better* qualities) and though she went through some rough "flavor-of-the-week" times with guys, she's sort of settled down in a relationship with a better guy. Though that's only a couple months old and still not totally solid, so we shall see.
But enough with the threadjack. I guess I just don't want to be seen as the guy who will bail on his friends when they get annoying, because I'm not. In your situation maybe I wouldn't cut TD loose, but as I don't know her or have any really comparable experience I can't say for sure. I'm only recommending you "cut loose" to give her a taste of what her choice really comes down to.


Part II:
It may be safer to avoid TD when BB might be around, or will be around, as someone with a record of violent crimes isn't usually a good bet to provoke. As for her place of work, I'd tell her not to quit no matter how much BB pressures her, as her coworkers seemed pretty supportive from what you said before. However, as they're likely to disapprove of her going back to BB, they might come off as harsh to TD when they find out that she's back with him, and that might give him all the leverage he needs to force her to quit.


In summary, TD has dug herself a very deep hole in a very deep pile of shit, and will hopefully realize this soon, before it becomes too deep to dig herself out. Best of luck.

Jester
12-20-2007, 04:42 AM
TD was a hero in my eyes.

She's failed so many people, just because she's afraid to be alone.

Right now, I gotta think she deserves him.

TD was a hero to many. And you are right, she failed many. But more than you, or me, or the CSers, or her friends or coworkers, or other women, she failed herself. And that is what makes everything so sad.

And though she made this choice, I don't believe that she deserves him. I don't think any woman in such a situation deserves such treatment. It's a freakin' shame.

I guess I just don't want to be seen as the guy who will bail on his friends when they get annoying, because I'm not.

I'm only recommending you "cut loose" to give her a taste of what her choice really comes down to.

It may be safer to avoid TD when BB might be around, or will be around, as someone with a record of violent crimes isn't usually a good bet to provoke.

As for her place of work, I'd tell her not to quit no matter how much BB pressures her, as her coworkers seemed pretty supportive from what you said before.

I don't think anyone saw you as that kind of guy....you were reacting to this situation. It's understandable.

I may not be cutting her loose, and I will be there for her....but as I said, the next time around, if she survives, who is going to go out on a limb to help her? I am not sure I will. Shoulder to cry on is one thing. Risking bodily injury to help her do something she has a history of not doing? Quite another.

I have no intention of seeking out BB, and I am guessing he is not going to try to make himself look any worse by seeking it either. The cops may roll their eyes at him beating her, since she won't walk away, but I don't doubt they would not take kindly to him getting violent with one of their favorite magicians, who has no history of violence. But I am also not going to avoid places just because he may be there. What I told him on the phone and via text I would tell him to his face. Fuck him. Beating up a 100 pound woman does not make me fear you at all.

Oh, I wouldn't want her to quit, it's a good job, and the people are very supportive....though of course they are going to be a bit less so when all this breaks. But if she doesn't listen to me about leaving him and pressing charges and going through with the restraining order, I doubt she is going to listen to my advice on her job if he convinces her otherwise.

Jester
12-20-2007, 05:04 AM
Kind of an update:

I just got off the phone with the person that TD was staying with. No one, that we know of, has heard at all from TD other than text messages. We already know that BB has her phone. I am not going to get into specifics on this forum, but various circumstances lead us to believe that this was a choice by TD, and not something that happened against her will or choice. However, we have not completely discounted that possibility. Also, while she may have gone back to him by her own choice, the fact that no one has heard from her directly makes us wonder what shape she is in. Frankly, we don't even know if she is alive, or beaten to a bloody pulp (again) or what. She is supposed to work tomorrow night. We may know more then, if only about her physical condition. Even if she is totally alright physically, though, I would not be surprised if she did not show up for work. BB knows her workplace is completely against him, top to bottom.

I don't want to worry anyone unnecessarily....we have no concrete reason to believe that anything untoward has happened to TD. But with this kind of situation, you never know.

*sigh* I'll keep y'all posted.

I hate this shit.

MMATM
12-20-2007, 05:30 AM
Oh, shit.

I hope, for everyone's sake, she's ok. Well, not for BB's sake. He can rot in hell. But for her sake, for the sake of her friends, and for everyone here, I hope she's fine.

You're not on a very big island. Where could she have disappeared to? Other than BB's place, of course? And it could be that she's ashamed that she's let everyone down and is simply laying low because she doesn't want to face everyone. Even though that would mean she definitely went back to BB, it would mean that she's not entirely lost at the same time as meaning that she's ok.

Keep updating as you have been, Jester. You've got the whole board behind you. As does TD.

MadMike
12-20-2007, 05:40 AM
Oh, shit.


Those were the exact words that ran thru my head when I read Jester's latest update. I hope some good news comes out of this, but I can't help being uneasy. :no:

Jester
12-20-2007, 05:46 AM
And those were the exact same words that went through my head when my phone rang early this afternoon, after a lengthy text message conversation with (I had thought) TD, and I saw it was TD's phone calling me.....and I answered it to hear BB's voice. And he's trying to convince me it was an accident and he didn't hit her.

Yeah, that was a kick in the stomache.

I hope he fucking dies. Slowly. Painfully. And soon.

MadMike
12-20-2007, 05:50 AM
I hope he fucking dies. Slowly. Painfully. And soon.

You and me both, man. :pissed:

Talon
12-20-2007, 05:59 AM
Jester,

I'm sorry I'm so late arriving to this thread, on account of my exams.

I'm going to tell you all a story about a kid I once knew very well. He was small, nerdy, quiet type, therefore a prime target for bullies. He never fought back, either believing fighting violence with violence was wrong, or that he wouldn't stand much chance. One day some other kids decided they couldn't be silent witnesses any longer, and they went to the teacher. The kid was asked if he really was being bullied.

The kid wasn't exactly winning any popularity contests as it was, but he knew that no one liked a rat. On the other hand, somehow he knew that if he... if I had stayed silent, those other kids who weren't my friends, who owed me nothing, had stuck their necks out for nothing. Denying the truth would have meant I betrayed them.

That's exactly what TD has done. She's betrayed everyone who stood up for her. In my eyes, she's no longer a victim. She's chosen to destroy herself. For the time being Jester, I think it's best to leave her behind to suffer the consequences of her own actions.

That said, I don't think anyone deserves her fate. If by some miracle she pulls her head out of her self-indulgent hindquarters, help her out. But she needs to understand crystal-clear that she stopped being a victim when she betrayed her friends. Another betrayal could leave her with no friends at all, and no help in climbing out of her self-made pit.

That's all, sorry if my post was angrier than intended. I'm going to sleep now, if I can.

***While I was typing I missed the last few posts. Think TD will get the message this time?

MMATM
12-20-2007, 06:07 AM
You and me both, man. :pissed:

Third?-ed?

I'm going to bed, as it's 2am. But you can bet I'll be up at the ass-crack of dawn checking for updates. Jester, you're on Eastern Time! Go to bed!

...but keep your phone on and within reach.

Jester
12-20-2007, 06:20 AM
2 am is not late for me. I am a night owl.

Just never call me early in the morning. I am, shall we say, rather unpleasant at those times.

marasbaras
12-20-2007, 06:36 AM
While nobody deserves that kind of treatment, TD has chosen it.

Just stay away. There's nothing you can do now. And, any support you give will likely only reinforce her moronic decision.

Jester
12-20-2007, 07:04 AM
And, any support you give will likely only reinforce her moronic decision.

Oh, I won't support her in any way on this, and will make my opinion on the whole mess painfully clear. Doesn't mean I won't provide a shoulder to cry on....if nothing else, maybe having someone to talk to and to continue to tell her how bad her situation is will help her in the long run. Though, based on history, both hers and others', I wouldn't hold my breath.

Kusanagi
12-20-2007, 07:18 AM
Oh, I won't support her in any way on this, and will make my opinion on the whole mess painfully clear. Doesn't mean I won't provide a shoulder to cry on....if nothing else, maybe having someone to talk to and to continue to tell her how bad her situation is will help her in the long run. Though, based on history, both hers and others', I wouldn't hold my breath.

Okay, I'm going to attempt to put this in a way that won't offend anyone, as my cold blooded cynicysm is showing pretty hard right now.

Based on my experience, it won't do any good. You've provided her the best possible means of escape, stuck your neck out and then she willingly went back.

Assuming that it's not the million-to-one shot where she was kidnapped, to me, that is nothing short of betrayal.

If you continue to be there in that regard, you're just a crutch (her words, not mine) and she'll use you as such, getting away from him, running to you, until she's no longer scared and then going back to him.

That cycle never breaks no matter how old you get, unless the person makes a concious effort to do so. Once you give someone that chance, and they willingly deny it, personally, it would take alot for me to offer that chance a second time.

Were I in your position, I honestly believe I would wash my hands of it and not be involved in the situation at all anymore. Wether that makes you more noble or more stupid than I, that I cannot say.

She made her own decision and unfortunately has to live with the consequences.

If someone doesn't respect themselves, it's very hard to find them worthy of yours. And no, I'm not talking about esteem issues here.

I don't mean to sound cold, but the fact she's in her 30s and I've seen this happen with friends all over every age group, it really makes me numb to the situation after a while. "You don't like the situation? Change it." Especially after pulling a 180 like that, she wasn't even wishy washy leading up to it.

Anger isn't the right term, but dissapointed would fit it better.

That's about as nicely as I can put my thoughts.

crazylegs
12-20-2007, 08:31 AM
Oh for fucks sake.

I just can't form the coherent sentences I want to to convey my total and crushing disapointment thet TD has gone back to this absolute wank stain of humanity, well he's not really humanity he merely has bipedal locomotion, and thats all he shares with his fellow man.

:pissed:

Jester, You've been a fantastic friend to TD, you've put your personal safety on the line, you've put yourself out for her and I whole heatedly agree with you when you say you'll be the shoulder to cry on but you won't be putting yourself in the firing line again.

I personally don't beleive that TD will ever now leave BB, even with the escape network you provided she has still gone back to him, only if he has a nasty accident involving a chainsaw and some alligators will she be free of this shit stain on the face of this earth.

Everyone else,
There are stories of women who leave their abusive spouses, and throw them out, a good friend of mine decided she's had enough when her then partner decided to drink a bottle of scotch, run her over in his car then go speeding around town. He was arrested, lost his licence and his job, as well as K my friend, it does happen but not very often.

Look after yourselves everybody.

Becks
12-20-2007, 03:13 PM
Wow.

I've read this thread since the beginning, but haven't commented on it because words can't express the emotions I felt...well, at first anger at BB, of course. Hope for TD. Now I'll just use a quote.

And though I know this might sound cruel, I feel no sorrow or pity for TD going back to BB.

If that makes you cruel, it makes me cruel, too.

:burnup:

Amethyst Hunter
12-20-2007, 03:29 PM
This is extremely disappointing to say the least. :(

I do, however, feel pity for TD. Was this a huge honking mistake? Sure. I still feel pity though. She's only going to get more of the same (if not worse). No woman deserves that. Ever.

Myra
12-20-2007, 03:29 PM
Okay not that I feel sorry for TD or side with her, but as others have stated, she's going to have to come to the realization herself that she's in a bad situation. She obviously feels that she's not worthy of being treated better, and no amount of telling her otherwise is going to work until she sees it for herself.

My Mother-in-law was in a horribly abusive relationship before she met and married my wonderful Father-in-law. The ex beat her, called her names, controlled her, and cheated on her. She went to work with a broken nose once. Luckily she worked in a hospital, so she got fixed up. She miscarried several times, and had a baby with a weak heart who died a month or so after birth. These were not related to the abuse, but they didn't help.

What finally gave her the power to leave was one night where he put a gun in her face and held it there for what seemed like eternity. When he finally left to go out "with the boys" she packed her shit and ran like hell. She was raised in a house with an abusive father who targeted her, so for a long time she thought that was normal. She thought men were supposed to be controlling assholes. She finally realized it wasn't that way.

TD is going to have to realize on her own that she deserves better. Like others have said, hopefully her "last straw" isn't death. I do hope that when she comes to this realization, that Jester and others will be there. It does feel like a betrayal that she's done this, but I hope when she reaches out for real, that you guys can forget that and be her support. My MIL had nobody, and was able to do it anyway, but it's certainly easier with help.

Also, I'm sure the reason you're not hearing from her is that he's got firm control of the "situation" right now. He's taken her phone, and I'm certain he's got her contained in his world and she doesn't fart unless he tells her it's okay. If she goes to work, I'll be shocked.

I pray for her safety and she manages to come to her senses before something horrible happens. Or maybe he'll go outside to get the mail and get creamed by a drunk driver or something. One can only hope! :devil:

Shangri-laschild
12-20-2007, 05:14 PM
That's exactly what TD has done. She's betrayed everyone who stood up for her. In my eyes, she's no longer a victim. She's chosen to destroy herself. For the time being Jester, I think it's best to leave her behind to suffer the consequences of her own actions.

Not trying to start a fight, just trying to add some perspective to it.

While I understand that it can be frustrating to stand up for someone and have them go back to the bad situation, it's harder than you think to get out of that victim mind set. You convince yourself that it's your fault or that you don't deserve better and it's hard to get that out of your mind. It's not as simple as just walking away sometimes. A lot of times it's having to change your whole mind set and realize that you're better than that. Because usually the problem isn't realize that what he's doing is wrong, it's realizing that you don't deserve it and having the courage to say so and not waiver.

Rahmota
12-20-2007, 10:13 PM
Wow i feel bad for your friend Jester. i too hope she finds the strength to pull herself out of the situation before its too late. I also hope BB has a very personal encounter with a chipper shredder. Him and his kind are an embarresment to real men who know how to be decent. Althouh it does lend credence to evolution when you see a throwback like that. Or is it being insultign to neaderthals to compare the two?

I don't blame you jester for feeling a bit betrayed and tired of the situation. Just look at her the way a person who's addicted to a bad drug acts. Its gonna be painful to be near but good friends are a rock they can hopefully maybe someday pull themselves up with. Anhow hopefully things wil work out for the good.

Slayergrrl
12-20-2007, 11:02 PM
The fact is, kids, that she did what millions of women do all the time. And that at some time in the future, I will probably be attending her funeral and/or his murder trial.


Sadly I see this day in and day out.. I've mentioned before that I work for the Police. I've seen woman come in covered in blood, broken noses, beaten bodies.. They convince themselves that they somehow deserve it. I heard one woman say to our victims advocate that her husband loves her and that is why he beats her.

Most of them go back.. Sadly there is nothing that we or anyone can do about it..

I've seen a lot working where I do.. Sometimes I wish I could unsee those things. But it's made me a stronger person..

Jester, I don't know you from Adam but you seem like a wicked cool dude! Everyone should be as lucky to have a friend like you..

Jester
12-20-2007, 11:15 PM
If you continue to be there in that regard, you're just a crutch (her words, not mine) and she'll use you as such, getting away from him, running to you, until she's no longer scared and then going back to him.

And perhaps I am a crutch. But because she is my friend, and because I care for her, I will be there for her, even if that makes me a sucker. I don't know that I'll be willing to stick my neck out nearly as far next time around, but that doesn't mean that I won't be there to comfort her. It's just the way I am.

Were I in your position, I honestly believe I would wash my hands of it and not be involved in the situation at all anymore.

But you're not. You have to do things your way, and I have to do them mine. Doesn't make me better or worse than you....we are just built differently.

Especially after pulling a 180 like that, she wasn't even wishy washy leading up to it.

It wasn't quite the 180 it seems to have been. I did not post everything that was going on in with TD, as she was struggling emotionally with the whole thing, and I really didn't want to post all of that, especially since it looked to me like she WAS going to rid herself of this yahoo. There were signs there before this, and we saw some of them, but I did not write about them. That was a conscious decision on my part. And there are still things I have not posted, and won't, for a number of reasons. But I have to stress that it was not a complete 180. None of us who were dealing with TD should have been completely surprised by this...even though most of us were.

auntiem
12-21-2007, 12:16 AM
I have to say this on the behalf of TD.
I yo-yo'd in and out of a very bad relationship. I went back to him and stayed for a full year and a half after an incident so bad he had to call the ambulance for me. I consider myself a strong person and I know the red flags so I never get into a relationship like that again. The situation is undiscribeably emotionally complicated for the person going thru it. Please do not call her "stupid" or "weak" even though she seems to be. Hopefully, she will be able to get out and stay out the next time, it is very rare for someone in this situation to get out and stay out the first time (sadly, sometimes the second or third). You have to get to a point where you have somewhere to go where you can't be contacted and be willing to walk away with nothing but the clothes on your back. She got far this time, I hope with every fiber that next time she will make it.

Jester - I understand that it is horrible to watch this happen and not be able to stop it, but I hope you can be there for her again when she tries to get out next time.

myswtghst
12-21-2007, 01:54 AM
Wow. I've been reading this thread all along, but haven't commented, and I have to be honest, I was terribly disappointed to see she'd gone back to him. Not terribly surprised, but disappointed and saddened. :(

While many people here are right on the nail, that TD will have to break the cycle on her own, when she is ready, and that what she did IS, in my opinion, a betrayal to Jester and all the friends who helped her out in this tough time, I think there are a few things (some) people seem to be missing.

One, in my opinion, is that no matter how much it may be a bad decision on her part to go back to BB, TD does not deserve what she gets. No woman deserves to be used as a punching bag. The only time anyone deserves to be treated like that is if they started the fight and are just getting what they gave, particularly if they struck someone defenseless.

Two, what is a friend, but someone who stands by you, through the good and the bad? I know there are times you need to walk away, but unless a friend is abusing you (mentally, physically, emotionally, etc), I don't think it's right to abandon them because you disagree with their decision. I think Jester actually has a very healthy mindset on this - he says himself that he will be a shoulder, and he will remind her that this is a bad situation, but will not stick his neck out or put himself in danger again. He's already on BB's radar as a "bad guy" and that won't change, even if Jester cuts himself off from TD, who he does care about.

And three, I am still impressed that TD took things as far as she did. She made an effort to change, and I think this story does illustrate how hard it can be to get out of a situation like this. I went through something similar with emotional abuse from an ex in college, where, even though he humiliated me and cheated on me, I still cared about him and we had too much shared history and life for me to "just walk away." Sometimes the right thing to do is incredibly difficult, and I give TD respect for trying, even if she did not succeed.

What she did, in the end, hurts her, and hurts the cause. And that just plain sucks. Especially if she does decide to be strong in the future and walk away from him. But she made her bed and now she'll have to lie in it, and even if it only takes one more bout of abuse for her to leave, she'll pay for her mistake, one way or another. She's lost the respect of friends, and credibility in the eyes of the law, which will make everything that much harder the next time around, if there is a next time. And I think that's more punishment than anyone deserves.

tropicsgoddess
12-21-2007, 03:27 AM
I was happy for TD when she reported him, banned him from her job and had an RO. But now I'm disappointed that she went back to that douche bag. She had a chance to free herself of that bastard and now that's ruined. He's probably got her under lock down for all we know. I hope that she's okay and that one she will wise up and dump his sorry ass. I hope BB dies in a fire, or any painful and torturous manner possible. Jester, you were a good friend for helping her out and sticking your neck out for her, so mad respect ! :respect: Seeing that you and I are fellow Floridians along with my giant fiance (he's 6'8 and 300+ lbs. NO LIE!), we could make BB "disappear" in the Everglades.:devil:

MMATM
12-21-2007, 03:34 AM
Seeing that you and I are fellow Floridians along with my giant fiance (he's 6'8 and 300+ lbs. NO LIE!), we could make BB "disappear" in the Everglades.:devil:

Your fiancé is an alligator? Damn, he must be an animal in bed. :devil: (THAT WAS A JOKE PLEASE DON'T STRING ME UP BY MY BIG TOES!)

In all seriousness, though, ditching BB in the Everglades would probably be harmful to the local wildlife, as years of horrible filth seep out of his body into the surroundings. And the poor alligators who would hopefully (and likely) eat him before his body would be found! If he does happen to vanish in the Everglades, I would at least hope he'd vanish with a couple family-packs of TUMS in his pockets, for the alligators' sake.

Der Cute
12-21-2007, 04:07 AM
Well, what a story. *shakes head*

Jester, thank you for being supportive and trying to help someone who needed it. A person in jeopardy of harm needed a clearly thinking person - and you came through. Thank you.

TD - girl, you may not read this. I hope you do.
I've been there and done MOST of what you've done. I had a bf who was abusive - verbally. I was a depressed, 60% functional adult who came from an abusive home. So, staying w/ Butthead was easier for me than trying it on my own. Or so I thought. For a few months I stayed with Butthead, feeling worse and worse. Finally when he hit me I snapped out of it, and my survival switch came on. And stayed on.

TD- you chose to go back. To a place you feel comfortable in, although you kinda get the idea it's not Nirvana. You know it's iffy-good, it's not really all that...but it's what you KNOW. Why try the Nice Shiny Place across the street, it may turn out to be a tar pit.....and being scared and tired of it doesn't help. I truly hope you will find that spark of faith in yourself sometime soon and say, "I don't CARE if I sleep in the rain. I don't CARE if I am outside with $20 and a phone card. I don't CARE if someone thinks I look weird because of the black eye. I'M DOING IT FOR ME AND FOR MY SAFETY." You're worth it. Really.

Jimmy hit me. I knew he was a hitter. He had told me his first wife had pressed charges against him for it. And I thought, well, hmm...I can be me, and give him a chance...and he won't hit me. Not for a while, at least. The SOB yelled. Just like my dad. Hollered. Just like dad. And, so, to me, it was ok-ish. I had left home from it, but was around it again - my old worn sock that I knew had been good, but now had holes in it...I hoped the hole would heal.....
After a few months together, Jimmy tried to strangle me to show control. I had to struggle. You know what? He wouldn't give up. So I faked it. I called UNCLE..and let him think he was in control. As soon as the SOB got off me, I hauled ass out the door...and called the cops. RO, him in jail, me safe - fine. F U, SOB.

I didn't care. I didn't have much support. So what? I said I'd rather be in a homeless shelter than anywhere close to the SOB anymore. Yelling, meh, iffy. Choking me - NO. So I chose.

Every day, TD, you make a choice. Every day. And one day you will pull out of it. May not be tomorrow or next week, but you will. Because you'll figure out that you do NOT deserve to be hit, NOBODY does, and that you're WORTH FIGHTING FOR.


Jester - take a day off. I bet your brain needs a defrag sans Everclear.

Cutenoob

Jester
12-21-2007, 04:59 AM
Well, today was interesting. Much happened, most of it bad. The above post, that I posted at about 8:00, was actually a post I had been working on this morning, but had to finish up after I got home from work, after everything went down, but I still wanted those thoughts posted. And now, more fun-filled family entertainment:

Last night, fed up and freaked out by the whole situation, the girl who had taken TD in (we'll call her Cheer Girl) decided she was done getting screwed over, so she packed up all of TD's stuff in her place, put it her (Cheer Girl's) car, and this morning, when she went into work, she brought it all there, and texted TD that she could get her stuff back, and that she needed her keys back from TD. She got no response to her text. She also changed the locks on her place (costing her $50) as she didn't want there to be any chance BB could have access to her place.

I got a text from Rockin' Manager to call her. I was at my other job, not The Bar, so I called her and found quite a bit, and found out more as the day went on, through texts from RM and others. See, TD's job is The Bar, with me and RW and Rockin' Manager and Cheer Girl. I didn't mention it earlier (intentionally) but am clarifying now. So when I got a chance to, I called Rockin' Manager, and she told me that she had actually talked to TD voice to voice (rather than via text), something none of the rest of us had done. So TD is alive. Can't say she is well, but she is alive. TD could not or would not explain to Rockin' Manager why TD did what she did, but did ask about picking up her stuff from The Bar.

Then at a little while later, a lot happened all at the same time. I got three phone calls from the same number, which I did not recognize, which I am pretty sure is BB's, though I did not think of it at the time. I later tried calling that number twice, but got no answer and no voice mail.

Also, about that time, Rockin' Manager texted me to tell me that TD, rather than come get her stuff herself, had sent someone else to get it for her.

Okay class, does anyone want to guess just WHO it was that TD sent to The Bar to get her stuff? Anyone? Anyone?

RIGHT! She sent Big Boy himself. You know, the guy who had beaten the crap out of her, starting this whole saga in the first place. The same guy who is BANNED by management from setting foot on the premises of The Bar for any reason, ever. BB called Rockin' Manager from TD's phone (which he had with him), and they got in a screaming match. I guess BB thought it was unreasonable for him not to be allowed to set foot in a business from which he had been banned to get the possessions of the woman he had beaten bloody and senseless. Rockin' Manager in no uncertain--but definitely impolite--words told BB what he could do with this opinion. Finally, sick of it, Rockin' Manager called the police. BB finally got smart and left.

At about this SAME time, I started getting texts from TD. Or at least from TD's phone. Can't say it was TD, can't say it wasn't. But she was telling me that she was simply using BB for the moment, and would be leaving for her home town tomorrow. In different texts, she would later say that she was checking in to a battered women's shelter/home/whatever for six weeks, THEN going back to her home town. Either way, she was saying she was leaving him.

Okay class, can someone please explain why a woman who had left a man who had beaten her bloody and senseless, who had taken out a temporary restraining order and applied for a permanent one against the same man, who had gotten all her stuff from his house two night before while he was in jail for said incident, who had tons of people around her helping her with everything from transportation to clothes to a residence to counseling to court dates, who had actually left the guy....can someone please explain why this woman would go back to this man so that she could then leave him?

Anyone? Anyone? No one? Right. About what I figured. No one can answer this because it defies all logic, even severely twisted emotional logic.

It's at about this point that a lot of people involved in this whole mess started to get the :wtf: face going full bore. Myself included. I believe my exact thought was "HUH?!?!?!?!"

This all went down about an hour before TD was scheduled to work. Okay, everyone who is surprised to find out that at about this time TD quit her job at The Bar as I had predicted she would, please stand up.

Hmmmm.....interesting. Everyone seems to have remain seated.

So, shortly after this, Cheer Girl left The Bar, her day shift done, and was driving home to the residence she had just cleaned TD's stuff out of, when she found herself being followed by BB's truck. Cheer Girl is a naturally emotional person, and she reacted appropriately: she freaked the fuck out. Turned back around, drove back to work, and they had the head chef follow her in HIS car so she could get home safely.

A little bit after this, I got another text from TD, asking me if I could meet her somewhere so that we could talk. Since it was a text message, I could not be sure that it was TD wanting to talk, or BB trying to get me some place so he could have a new target for his violence. I texted back for TD to call me after I got off work, eventually coming right out in a text and saying that since I could not be sure who was texting me, I would only speak to her voice to voice.

So, later that evening, after work, TD called me. She wanted me to get her stuff from The Bar and meet her somewhere, so she could pick it up and go to a "friend's" house. She had a "friend's" vehicle. I did what any good friend would do.

I told her no.

I told her I WOULD help her get her stuff at The Bar and load it into her vehicle, but I was NOT being her transporter anymore. She told me she couldn't handle facing people at The Bar. I countered by telling her that she needed to take responsibility for her actions. She said that she would, but not when it endangered her mental health. I pointed out that the person most responsible for damaging her mental health was not anyone at The Bar, but BB. The guy she had gone back to. Yeah, him. She finally agreed to meet me at The Bar at a certain time.

Keep in mind, THIS whole conversation was shortly after the one where she hung up on me for "yelling" at her. I never raised my voice. That I was not angry with her, but many other people were. I explained to her why everyone was upset at her. "A lot of people went out of their way to help you, and they are feeling betrayed right now by your actions. People feel like you shit on them. You DID betray a lot of people, but more than anyone, you betrayed yourself."

So finally I met up with TD down at The Bar. Her "friend's" vehicle was none other than BB's. He, however, was not there. She claimed that she was using his truck to get her stuff and bring it to another friend's house. I was rather skeptical. So we load up the truck with all her stuff. I suggest to her that she should probably get Cheer Girl the $50 she had to spend to get her locks changed. I suggested that more than once, since I was getting no response from TD at all. Finally she said, "Yeah, when I get the money, I'll send it to her." My thought right now looking back: "The check's in the mail." After we finally get everything loaded, TD goes to leave. No thank you, no nothing, just an "I have to go." And she went. Later I texted her with "You're welcome." A bit after that, "That's ok, no need to thank me." I have yet to receive any response to either message.

As if all this wasn't enough, there was more. I went to a local bar and got a LARGE shot and a beer, and was calming down from the day's stupidity, getting ready to join some friends at trivia night, when I got a call from Cheer Girl. She had gotten physically ill, and was wondering if I would come over for a bit. She sounded horrible, so I went, picking up soup and Gatorade along the way. She was not acting....she was having cold sweats, puking often, shaking, having bad dreams, and was generally just looking really horrible. So I stayed with her a while, calmed her down, made her soup which she couldn't eat (I ate it, but there is more soup there), stuck around for a bit, and then finally came home to type all this up.

But even the above situation was not simple. As obviously very little is beneath BB, I could very well picture him having gone to Cheer Girl's place with one of his guns, taking her hostage, and making TD go get her stuff and come back....and using a fake illness to lure me, one of his chief detractors and one of TD's chief helpers, back to the place to "take care of me" in some violent way. Cheer Girl's lights were all off when I got there, and I did a slow circle of the parking lot checking to make sure BB's truck was not there. I also called a friend who lived nearby, and had him go with me into Cheer Girl's place to make sure it was just my paranoia. It was, in fact, just my paranoia, but that is how crazy all of this is making everyone.

While I understand that it can be frustrating to stand up for someone and have them go back to the bad situation, it's harder than you think to get out of that victim mind set. You convince yourself that it's your fault or that you don't deserve better and it's hard to get that out of your mind. It's not as simple as just walking away sometimes.

The situation is undiscribeably emotionally complicated for the person going thru it. Please do not call her "stupid" or "weak" even though she seems to be.

That's the thing. She HAD walked away. Many of us had helped her do it. She was struggling with things emotionally, and was in contact with BB without most of our knowledge, but she kept saying to me, "I'm better than this. I deserve better than this." And she believed it. She was OUT. She said she wanted it all to be over, for him to be out of his life, and she was so close to making that happen.

I know it is not a simple situation. I know that people struggle a lot with this kind of thing. But too many people went out of their way for this woman, and most of them are more pissed off than me, and I am somewhat pissed off. I am not ANGRY at her, as many are, but just feel very, very sad for her, and pity her.

I am not calling her "stupid" or "weak." But many other people are, and I cannot blame them or disagree, to be quite honest.

Jester - I understand that it is horrible to watch this happen and not be able to stop it, but I hope you can be there for her again when she tries to get out next time.

I don't know that I can. For someone else in a similar situation, sure. For her.....even I am having trouble with her actions of the last two days, now that things are clearer. Does he have some kind of hold over her? Of course. But if she is serious that she is just using this as a ruse to get away from him, she is obviously not thinking of the collateral damage to other people, and that is very fucking selfish.

Jester, I don't know you from Adam but you seem like a wicked cool dude! Everyone should be as lucky to have a friend like you..

I am. But as I have said from the start, I am not the only person who went out on a limb for TD in this. The whole business circled the wagons protectively around her. Cheer Girl opened up her home to TD. Rockin' Manager was amazing in so many ways. Reformed Waitress was absolutely angelic in her counseling of TD. Me, I drove her around some, and helped her with some cargo.

The time and resources of so many people that were wasted on all this is staggering. Emotionally, I am drained. Rockin' Manager has had two run-ins with BB, both at the business, and while she is a tough broad, she has been left shaking from both of them. Cheer Girl is physically, violently ill. Even The Wall, a very large, thick guy who works at The Bar, saw BB one day at another bar just glaring at him for over an hour. It takes some serious stupidity to glare at a guy The Wall's size. (I didn't choose his pseudonym in here for no reason, after all.) Many people at The Bar have lost a lot of faith in the police, the legal system, and people in general. The police and the court system wasted a lot of time and money on this whole thing, and while I hated the fact that they dragged their feet on this, it is situations just like this one, that they see every day, that cause them to do just that.

I like to think I will be there for TD again. I still consider her a friend. But I am not beyond getting disappointed in or mad at (or even furious at) my friends when they fuck up. And TD fucked up. She was out. She knew that, and she knew she had an amazing support system, even if the legal system wasn't working that great or that quickly to help her. And she threw it all away to go back to this shitstain. Whether it is in fact a ruse to leave him (which makes no sense) or she is just lying and is going to be back with him (which also makes no sense) doesn't matter, really, in the end. She is not the only person that was hurt in this, but she can't see that.

So now I come to the end of this whole sordid tale.

But I am going to end this with a message. A message to the world in general and several CS.com members in particular. You know who you are.

(Those with delicate sensibilities should probably leave. Now.)

Many of you are stuck in an abusive relationship. You think you can't get out, but you can. If this thread has taught you nothing else, it should have taught you that there are tons of people willing to help you, oftentimes people you don't even know that well, or at all. Look at the outpouring of emotion TD got not just from her friends and coworkers, but from so many people who never met her right here on this website.

I know that it is not an easy thing to do. Leaving someone you love is never easy. And I am not going to lie and say it is.

But for the love of all that is holy on heaven and earth, if the love of your life is using you as a punching bag, sending you to the hospital, making you fear for your life, or even just treating you like shit without hitting you physically, and everyone you know is telling you to get the fuck out, you might want to consider that it's time to
GET THE FUCK OUT!!!!

And when you finally do get up the courage to talk to people, to seek help, to get out, please, do whatever you can to not go back to him. Because the next time around, people and cops and courts are going to be much less likely to help you.

And please consider other people. Because once you go back to him, all those people who helped you are left hurt, betrayed, mad, and sometimes even become targets for that waste of skin that you love so much that you can't live without their loving hands using your skin as a conga drum.

So once you get the fuck out of that failing miserable relationship, please do yourself and those around you a huge favor and
STAY THE FUCK OUT!!!!


Don't allow yourself to become a Tiny Dancer.

Don't hate yourself so much that you become a Human Pinata.

Jester
12-21-2007, 05:05 AM
Jester - take a day off. I bet your brain needs a defrag sans Everclear.

I'd love to. I can't. Not only do I need the money (and took yesterday off for other reasons), but I am probably going to have to work Cheer Girl's day shift tomorrow in addition to my own night shift. She is REALLY sick. :(

crazylegs
12-21-2007, 11:59 AM
Emotions can do strange things to people, they can make you run into burning buildings to look for total strangers, they can make total volunteers go out onto force nine seas in an inflatable rib to rescue those from a sunken ship, they can make you devote your life to a single person, this is the power someone who is suffering from Domestic Abuse is up against.

Love is all blinding, it makes you ignore all the bad points against someone, remember that ex that used to always ask you questions and you thought that was great because they truseted your judgment and now you just find it plain annoying that they bug you all the time.

Someone in a DA situation will not have been hit straight away from the offset of the relationship, Abusers are cunning, they first destroy your self esteem, they take away your confidence, they make you feel like you cannot survive without them, then and only then does the violence start, but its not broken bones, its a slap and the victim will justify it they didn't mean to, I made him angry or He loves me, he'd never try to hurt me, he won't do it again. Only it doesn't stop, and the more the Abuser works on their victim the more the self esteem and confidence goes, so then the violence increases. Its no longer a slap, its a punch, a kick, they're thrown down the stairs, they get bones broken, but all the time the Abuser is destroying what tiny semblance of dignity and self respect the victim has left until the Abuser has total control and the vicitm cannot leave their abuser.

I'm aware of one incident where (similar to this one) the victim had had enough, they had left. They phoned the police who arranged to go back into the house and pick up some of her belongings, only they couldn't remove the abuser whilst they did this because it was his house, so all the while when she was packing her suitcase he was calling up the stairs telling her he loved her and that he could't live without her and he would never hurt her again. All the while the packing got slower and slower and slower until she stopped. She put down what she had just picked up and placed it back in the drawer, and repeated with all her belongings and unpacked her suitcase.

This is the power of emotions, the total control they have over us and the power of Domestic Abuse.

(Throughout this I have said 'He' for the abuser, I am fully aware there is a significant number of men in abusive relationships, I merely said 'He' for ease of typing).

Stay Safe

Saydrah
12-21-2007, 03:37 PM
Take care of YOU first, Jester. This is making everyone sick and crazy. You have no obligation to be there for her twice. I hope things will work out so you CAN be if and when she finally does leave him (I'm ever the optimist) but if it's hurting YOU, don't do it. You can't help anyone if you sacrifice your sanity for one person who's already rejected your help and the help of everyone else in the situation.

Talon
12-21-2007, 03:55 PM
Wow.

TD, you are a real fucked-up piece of work. Do you think the whole world revolves around you?

Any sympathy I might have had for her up until now, just went up in smoke. Until she A) leaves the loser, B) apologizes to her friends, and C) pays back the $50 for the changed locks, I might actually give a damn about her fate. Congrats Jester, you're a better person than I would be in your shoes.

For the record, I do understand the victim mindset. My best friend was married to a manipulative psycho. 2 of her cousins are going through the same bullshit right now. But you know what? That's no excuse! TD's an adult, she has a responsibility to both herself and to her friends. She failed, she knows it, and apparently doesn't give a damn. How much sympathy am I supposed to feel?

AnqeiicDemise
12-21-2007, 04:09 PM
Jester:

I've bee in in your shoes in my short life far too many times. I know how it feels to do just about everything in your power to help someone who needs it only to have it backfire on you at the last moment.

My 'best' friend (same one who stopped talking to me when I came out of the broom closet and said I was going to hell for believing such things.) called me out of the blue about six months ago, bawling her little head off. Her baby-daddy, the live in boyfriend, had played drum line on her body and choked her half to death. She asked, begged for help and I, being in San Fransisco at the time didn't know what to do as she was in LA.

So I did what I could do. I called people who didn't like this friend because of all the things she'd done to me (long, manipulative, hurtful background here). I begged, pleaded and asked that they help 'Friend' because, well, it doesn't matter how horrible she's treated me, NO ONE deserves to be treated like a human pinata. After much begging, my mother finally relented and said she'd open her home up to 'Friend'. My other best friend (she's more of a sister) said she'd help F only because F was driving around like an idiot with her baby in tow.

F had called the police. F had gotten her baby daddy arrested and sent to court-mandated anger management.

F never showed up at the pick up spot and never went to my mother's house. Two days later she was back with BD who had 'changed because of his jail time and was really, really sorry.'

I don't talk to F much. She still calls me from time to time and I pick up and talk to her. I feel bad if I cut her out completely as she feels abandoned as *everyone* in her life turned her back on her (because of a very much TD situation). Its just not the same, though. We talk about nothing and it feels detached. If she feels like asking for help, I don't know if I could do it again.

I figure she'll leave when she realizes she has to, and I hope that comes before the second kid comes out in September.

But some people don't learn, Jester. Some people don't leave even after the gun's been pulled and shot in their general direction. Some people don't react like you want them to when the anger is taken out on the child (i.e. my oldest blood sister. The kid's been shot at *twice*. Niece is unharmed, btw, thank the gods).

And you can't beat yourself up over it. If you do, you won't ever get some peace of mind, Jester-dear. You'll just drive yourself sick and hinder yourself from living your *own* life.

Keep TD in your prayers, Jester, like I keep F and Sis in mine. Its the most you can do in hopes that, someday, they open up their eyes and finally walk away.

Its a sad, miserable case, I know. And it hurts sometimes, to realize you just don't care anymore (or that you don't feel like caring) because you're a giving person with a heart of gold. You stepped up to the plate. You went above and beyond what was called for.

For that, on behalf of the battered women who *DO* get out and honestly *want* to get out, Thank You.


-Demise

Saydrah
12-21-2007, 05:33 PM
Just sharing some quotes from this blog post I just saw:
http://community.disaboom.com/community/tweiss/archive/2007/12/21/boundaries-fears-learning-and-growth.aspx

"The problems this person I am providing friendship and care for are deep; to be sure. I could probably do some good. There is trauma involved. There are situations I could help with. There are experiences I have gone through, which I could share knowledge of, that could help this person.

You know what? It is not my place to do so. This person is going to have to deal with their own issues. This person is going to have to dig their own way out. In fact – I am leaving their service."

.....

"Trauma is blinding. I have had a bad case of, “Fix-It,” or, “Save the World,” syndrome. As I have mentioned, the rewards have been immense; the damages have been equally immense."

.....

"I am worthy. Very much so. I can also learn, and I am.

Lucky Charms may be, “Magically Delicious; “ this cycle of trauma crap is not. Time is needed. I will continue to learn, and grow."

That Lucky Charms bit may be the best thing I've heard that relates to this situation, EVAR.

So not magically delicious, TD.... SO not magically delicious.

Jester
12-22-2007, 06:54 PM
"Cause I can't leave things well alone..." (Natalie Imbruglia)

So today I suddenly remembered that back when I had been helping TD and trying to be a good friend, I loaned her a book that I had finished with that she was interested in.

Knowing I should just write said book off, but not being able to let things lay, I texted TD and asked her if there was a chance I could get it back. I said nothing else.

And then all text message hell broke loose.

TD claimed (or BB, hard to know for sure over text) that:

--we had all turned on her, assuming and judging without knowing the facts, though she has never provided the facts.

--we had all treated her like shit. You know, everyone who had helped her and been there for her and gotten her clothes when she had none and opened up their homes and gone out of their way to do everything in their power to keep the dude from every doing that to her again, even though every single one of them except me only knew her a few months, if that. Yeah, we treated her like shit.

--Cheer Girl had stolen some of her stuff. Because of that, TD does not think she needs to pay Cheer Girl the money that CG spent to change the locks. TD even went so far as to say that she would be filing a police report on the missing stuff. This is the same girl that let the restraining order lapse.

--Cheer Girl had no reason to be freaked out by BB, as she had never met him. Ignoring, of course, the fact that we had all seen his handiwork.

--no one should judge her without having been there. Again ignoring the fact that most of the people trying to help her either knew one or more people who had been there, or they themselves had been there at some point.

--she knew what real friends were, and that we weren't really her friends, because we all just turned on her and assumed she had gone back to BB. After she did go back to him, he had access to her phone, he used it to call Rockin' Manager and yell obscenities at her, she used his truck, and she sent him in to the place she knew he was banned from to pick up her stuff. Yeah, it was rather reckless for us to jump to such a conclusion based upon such flimsy evidence, don't ya think?

Most of us have bent over backwards, me perhaps more than some of the others, to try to help her, and yet we are the bad guys, we don't know what's going on, we are all treating her terribly. Either she really believes this, or someone is convincing her of it, or she is trying to justify something, or she is truly nuts, or a million other possibilities that I am not nearly smart enough to figure out.

I thought I knew this girl. I've known her for eight years. Either she is nuts or the abused woman syndrome is even more complex than I had thought, and because I thought it was so complex, I was giving her more leeway than almost anyone else involved. Personally I don't think she is any nuttier than any other woman, and I believe that this is just the way this whole type of situation plays on a woman's mind. Even if she DID go back to him to leave him, that kind of logic only makes sense to someone who has had their entire confidence and self-esteem systematically broken down.

Again, I can't stress it enough ladies....if you find yourself in a situation that is at all abusive, don't fool yourself into thinking things will change. Well, they WILL change, but they will only change for the worse as the abuse increases.

It makes me almost ask why I bother. I say almost, because the fact of the matter is that the next time someone I care for needs my help, I will be there for them. I will not allow this cesspool of a situaation to poison my mind against helping those in need for fear that they may not appreciate it, even though oftentimes they won't, or for fear that it could turn ugly, as it apparently has with this experience.

Saydrah
12-22-2007, 06:59 PM
*sigh* I don't really even know what to say, except that she's lashing out because some part of her knows that she has no future (not the relationship has no future... SHE has no future) with this guy and that her support system is crumbling after she abused all the people who care about her.

reformedwaitress
12-22-2007, 10:37 PM
It makes me almost ask why I bother.

You bother cause you care about her and your heart is bigger than even you realize sometimes. And even if you hadn't known her for years, even if you'd only known her a few weeks or months, like the rest of us, you still would have done everything you did.

How do I know this? Cause I know you. And you're a good guy.

Back on topic, I won't go into this subject because even though I've been there, explaining her actions just isn't really possible. My guess is she's ashamed and trying to pass it off on everyone else to justify a decision she knows is wrong. I would bet you anything it doesn't really even make sense to HER right now.

I know my reasonings never made sense to me. I was just ashamed.

Jester
12-23-2007, 12:54 PM
My guess is she's ashamed and trying to pass it off on everyone else to justify a decision she knows is wrong. I would bet you anything it doesn't really even make sense to HER right now.

And this is why, even after all that has happened, I am still not angry at her, though many people involved definitely are. I am not angry at her, I am not pissed. I am just sad.

Gravekeeper
12-23-2007, 02:19 PM
.....wow, I came in late to this rather epic clusterfuck and just wow.

I have nothing to add save summing it up by saying:

You can't save someone from themselves.

crazylegs
12-23-2007, 06:22 PM
Just a little thought for the day.

In the UK the average abused spouse will suffer 33 seperate acts of violence (as in on totally seperate occasions) before they phone the police for THE FIRST TIME. Let alone actually getting out of the relationship.

Eireann
12-23-2007, 07:14 PM
It sounds like TD is trying desperately hard to rationalize her decision to go back to the guy who beat the crap out of her and left her outside the house. How does she do this? By claiming that those who helped her, were really taking advantage of her.

It's also all too true that all of you had spent a lot of time challenging all the bullshit BB had been feeding her. When you start to break free of all the lies and manipulation someone's been handing you, you don't know where you are. You feel like there's nothing to believe in. You have one person claiming to "love" you, while causing you immense emotional, and often physical pain. On the other hand, you have friends who rally around you and give you emotional support, but they, not being manipulators, are open and honest about their feelings. You're not used to this. You're used to lies and deceit.

Manipulators like this are very, VERY good at what they do. Okay, they're very EFFICIENT at what they do. I don't want to use the word "good" here. They use the low, soothing voice. They intersperse insults with compliments (actually, the "compliments" are veiled insults, but when you're in such a low state, they sound like compliments). They tell you how much you mean to them, how they couldn't get along without you, they'll never never never do it again, etc.

And it's easier, it seems to you then, to keep on with that rather than stand up for yourself, move out, move on, be independent, stand on your own two feet, and - here is the crunch - change your entire way of thinking.

Because it's not just about one manipulative fuck. It's about what that manipulative fuck saw in you to KNOW that s/he could get you to play his/her game. Sharks can scent an extremely small amount of blood in a large volume of water, and they move in. It's the same with these bastards. They know what to look for, and they know how to use it.

So, my guess is that BB's been spending a few days brainwashing TD and working her into a frenzy so that she wants to believe that the people who have been bending over backwards to help her, are just out to take advantage of her. I think we've all known someone who, in a relationship, can be worked up easily by his/her partner, exploding into a rage while the partner sits back and enjoys the fireworks. That's what is happening here.

Of course, BB also wants to view himself as the good guy. They always do. That's why he tries to excuse his behavior. He doesn't say, "Screw you, bitch! Next time you'll get a whole lot worse! Don't even think about talking back to me!" He tried to excuse his behavior to her, to you, to several other people. But he knows that you know what a shitstain he really is, so he's seething at all of you.

My recommendation is, tell the police exactly what has been happening, and tell them that you're afraid for the safety of those who have helped TD, since you can't tell just how far BB's anger and vengeance will go.

As hard as it is, sometimes you just have to let people fuck up their lives entirely. TD may, one day, realize how much you've done for her. In the meantime, BB got her around to believing that you've been taking advantage of her, and she's given all of you the metaphorical finger. She doesn't sound like a friend to me.

Jester
12-24-2007, 05:39 AM
By claiming that those who helped her, were really taking advantage of her.

So, my guess is that BB's been spending a few days brainwashing TD and working her into a frenzy so that she wants to believe that the people who have been bending over backwards to help her, are just out to take advantage of her.

In the meantime, BB got her around to believing that you've been taking advantage of her, and she's given all of you the metaphorical finger. She doesn't sound like a friend to me.

Actually, that's not quite what's been happening, or what she said, anyways.

She never accused anyone of taking advantage of her. What she did do was say we all had turned on her after she had gone back to BB, that after that, we started treating her like shit, that we were not her real friends, etc. And she claimed that she was shortly leaving him to go home to her native city, but she could not explain the logic behind going back to someone you had left in order to leave them. Nor could she explain why she thought it a good idea to send the guy who caused all the problems, who was banned from the premises of the business, to that very business to get her stuff. But in any case, she KNEW that we had all turned on her, etc., etc., etc.

:shrug: No, I don't get it either. If you can explain it to me in plain simple English, I would love to hear it.

blas
12-24-2007, 05:47 AM
Jester, I am so sorry.

It sucks when you do everything you can for a friend and think you've gotten through to them, and they just go back to their old ways.

I hope she stays safe for now! So are you really saying that the restraining order and everything got dropped?!

Jester
12-24-2007, 05:51 AM
So are you really saying that the restraining order and everything got dropped?!

I don't know when the temporary restraining order expired/expires. I DO know that she was back with fuckhead the morning they were both supposed to be in court for the hearing for the permanent restraining order. If she had shown up and he had not, it would have been automatically granted. If they both had shown up, the judge would have listened to both sides, her side saying why it was needed, his side saying why it wasn't, and then the judge would have made a ruling. With her not showing up and actually being back together with him, as far as I know, the TRO is null and void and the RO never happened. Worse still, as this was the second TRO she took out against him, and the second time she went back to him, it is unlikely she will be able to get one against him in the future.

blas
12-24-2007, 05:57 AM
So in essence, she has totally screwed herself for the next time this happens (and I say this because it WILL happen. Men like that don't change. If anyone wants to challenge me, we can take a field trip to Waupon prison and you can meet the guy who killed my cousin, after all, he'd beat up several girlfriends before he actually killed one!).

I do still feel for TD in a way. Who is going to help her the next time he wails on her?

Jester
12-24-2007, 07:27 AM
So in essence, she has totally screwed herself for the next time this happens...

In a nutshell: yes.

I do still feel for TD in a way. Who is going to help her the next time he wails on her?

I do to. I feel sadness and pity. As for who will help her next time? I am guessing no one. Or American Airlines. One of the two. :(

Sir Spaniard the 12th
12-24-2007, 12:47 PM
:shrug: No, I don't get it either. If you can explain it to me in plain simple English, I would love to hear it.

She's confused. Suddenly all the people she felt close to, and relied on for support, aren't. I'm not judging you or those others that pulled away after seeing her run back to him. I have a way to (in most cases), at least slightly, see things from the other point of view due to my habit of overthinking. I'd get fed up myself.

She probably doesn't understand that you all are fed up and drained from going in to bat for her time and again over such a long period, about such a powerful, emotional thing.

Suddenly all she has is the guy who assaulted her for 'support', instead of you and her real friends.. So she's lashing out, sounds like. She can't do it at him, so she's doing it to those she can... Since you all are, in her eyes, giving up.

Though I can't fathom the 'Go back so I can leave later thing'.. Especially when she was so close to doing so anyway, with the law on her side...

RecoveringKinkoid
12-26-2007, 03:10 AM
Well, I didn't read all this. I don't need to. I've read enough.

People think I'm a heartless bitch because I have a bad habit of just letting the chips fall where they may in a lot of situations. Because sometimes I've been a lousy, chilly, uncaring "friend." Because I have LITERALLY stepped over the weeping body of someone lying on the floor in my way out the door.

I'm a crummy friend, I'm afraid. And a terrible Christian, too.

Just an FYI Jester. I knew a guy who had his brains blown out by the abusive ex of a chick he was hanging out with. I am pretty sure he never even knew what hit him. Considering how this so often plays out, you'd be smart to stay out of the crossfire. I feel it's best to avoid being in the blast radius of bombs, you know what I mean?

In fact, consider:
http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=46204

This beautiful girl went to my church. Her funeral was one of the two most gut-wrenching things I've ever had to sit through. It also reinforces my conviction that it's best to avoid hanging out at ground zero. Her mom had gone to the cops the night of the murder. They didnt' take her seriously. I imagine, they'd heard it all before. Later that night, asshole boyfriend came over. After the murder, Chrystal and her mom rotted in the house FOR A MONTH while the cops did nothing. Why? I imagine they were sick of dealing with the bs. I don't know if there was a history, but you know what? There's always a fucking history. Anyway, they found her when my friend Maurice flew out there and told the cops he was going to force the door if they didn't open it.

Why am I telling you all this? I dunno. I guess to illustrate to you that there possibly is more than a potential ass-kicking in store for you if you don't leave it alone, and God knows at this point you probably know even that would hardly be worth it. Because maybe I'm sick of reading news articles about people I know.

Feh.

And people wonder why I'm so cynical and view the world through shit-colored glasses.

Eireann
12-26-2007, 04:09 PM
Jester, I just hate being the one to tell you this, even though I have an idea that you've already figured it out.

She hasn't gone back to him just to leave. She's gone back to him. That's why she's lashing out at all of you. She has to justify (in her own mind) her reasons for going back to him, and the only way she can do that is to believe, or try to believe, that all of you were somehow "worse" than he is. (She must be giving herself migraines trying to do it; after all, none of you beat the crap out of her and then told her she deserved it.)

The problem with situations like these is, when you tell someone that they're in an abusive relationship, they need to get out, etc., is that all too often, they translate this into personal criticism. They think you're telling them that they're no good. YOU aren't the one saying that - BB is - but being the manipulative fuck that he is, he knows how to turn it around and make her believe it. The rest of you have been telling her the truth, straight-up, and she doesn't know how to deal with it, because she's been listening to flat-out lies for a long time.

One other thing I forgot to mention: Bad relationships are an addiction.

It's really a shame that there's no twelve-step group for it, because this is an addiction like any other. You justify your behavior. You lash out at the people who are trying to help you. Your moods change. You keep going back.

The only difference here is that it's a person that's an addiction and not a substance. It doesn't have to be BB. It could be - and probably would be - any jackass who does what BB does. It's a very, VERY hard habit to break, all the harder because the assbastard KNOWS how to get you hooked again. Drugs can't call you up and sweet-talk you. People can.

And trying to figure out her behavior won't get you anywhere. You don't behave like she does, you don't think like she does, and you can't get into her head. There's no sense trying; you'll never understand what makes her tick. And even if you did understand, it wouldn't make her life, or yours, any better.

And for the men out there who don't understand why they can't get a date while many women throw away their lives on abusers - believe me, you don't want to date women like these! There's far more involved than just low self-esteem on their part. They can't be in healthy relationships until they make that decision for themselves, and nobody can make that decision for them.

protege
12-26-2007, 04:23 PM
Reading all of this reminds me of someone I knew in college. She'd constantly bitch about her boyfriend to anyone that would listen. Depending on the day, he was an asshole of various levels. Most of us tried to be nice and understanding about it...but eventually you reach a point that you simply don't care anymore. (Not to sound cold, but eventually, it gets rather draining to be used as someone's therapist.)

In fact, several of us in our little group finally had enough...with one girl actually going so far as saying: "He's an asshole. All you've done for the past month is bitch about it. You know he's an asshole, and so does everyone here. If he's so bad, why the hell are you still with him then? We're trying to be there for you about it, but we're really tired of hearing about it. Either do something, or quit whining!"

MystyGlyttyr
12-26-2007, 05:32 PM
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing18.html

And for more information in general, http://www.rickross.com/brainwashing.html

Rick Ross has made some mistakes in a few of his dealings, but the man knows his shit when it comes to the effect cult leaders and manipulators have on the human mind. Cults and human psychology are two of the things I've done extensive research on and I wouldn't feel out of place to say that Ross is one of the leading experts on this in the U.S. and probably the world.

Basically, almost everyone has some button that a cult leader can push to bring them in line and under control, it's just a question of finding it. And once they do, it's disturbingly easy to bring another human being under your control so completely that it's basically captivity. You don't have to be some brilliant evil mastermind, you just have to be willing to manipulate someone who's too slow or too innocent to suspect anything until it's too late. These days, so many adults are so weak-willed or naive that FIVE-YEAR-OLDS can do it, we all see it everyday.

So rather than thinking of TD as being a woman going back to her abuser, think of her as a member of a cult that's only got two members, and the leader has spent all this time poisoning her mind against "everyone else" and trying to make her wholly dependant on him. It might not help the behavior make sense, but it's easier to swallow for some.

If you ever feel the need to talk to someone about it, feel free to PM me.

iradney
12-26-2007, 06:07 PM
I just found this video. You guys may have seen it on Oprah or something already, but it's about a woman who is beaten by her husband. Her husband tells their 13 year old son to tape him abusing his wife. It's about 10 minutes long, and those that are sensitive shouldn't watch it.
She did eventually leave him, but she describes how he broke her down to nothing, emotionally and psychologically. It might help shed a little light on why TD is acting the way she is.

As said before, Sensitive viewers might not want to watch. There is violence and language.

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2007/wife-beating-on-video-p1.php

Saydrah
12-26-2007, 06:19 PM
:eek:....That video is labeled as funny WHY now? Didn't watch because I'm at work, but I saw 'funny' in the URL and read the description and went

iradney
12-26-2007, 07:04 PM
:eek:....That video is labeled as funny WHY now? Didn't watch because I'm at work, but I saw 'funny' in the URL and read the description and went

Yeah, I don't understand why either. Think it's a case of mislabelling, tbh, since the site itself doesn't seem to condone violence against women (or children)

Pedersen
12-26-2007, 09:08 PM
Here's a question: What if you worry that you are an abuser? Without going into details, there is someone very close to me who seems to be retreating into her shell.

What if you worry that you are doing mental/emotional abuse to someone, and aren't even aware you're doing it, nor how to stop it if you are?

Saydrah
12-26-2007, 09:15 PM
Pedersen,

I am not, repeat NOT a Dear Abby fan (I'm a Dan Savage person), but she republishes at least once a year a column on the warning signs of an abuser, which I find to be very true (except for one point, which I have noted in bold and commented upon).

As follows:

(1) Pushes for quick involvement: Comes on strong, claiming, “I’ve never felt loved like this by anyone.” An abuser presses for an exclusive commitment almost immediately.

(2) Jealous: Excessively possessive; calls constantly or visits unexpectedly; prevents you from going to work because “you might meet someone”; checks the mileage on your car.

(3) Controlling: Interrogates you intensely (especially if you’re late) about whom you talked to and where you were; insists you ask permission to go anywhere or do anything.

(4) Unrealistic expectations: Expects you to be perfect and meet every need.

(5) Isolation: Tries to cut you off from family and friends; accuses people who are your supporters of “causing trouble.”

(6) Blames others for problems or mistakes: It’s always someone else’s fault if something goes wrong.

(7) Makes others responsible for his or her feelings: The abuser says, “You make me angry,” or “You’re hurting me by not doing what I tell you.”

(8) Hypersensitivity: Is easily insulted, claiming hurt feelings when he or she is really mad. Rants about the injustice of things that are just a part of life.

(9) Cruelty to animals or children: Sixty-five percent of abusers who beat their partner will also abuse children.

(10) “Playful” use of force during sex: Enjoys throwing you down or holding you against your will during sex. Finds the idea of rape exciting.

Saydrah's Note: While doing anything against someone's will sexually is wrong and is sexual assault/rape, not everyone who finds roleplay involving rape exciting would find actually committing a rape in any way exciting. Rape is not a sex crime- it is a violent crime and about control, and there is a big difference between someone who finds actual sexual violence exciting and someone who enjoys willingly and consciously partaking of the cultural 'rape myth' portrayed in pornography and elsewhere; in other words, that rape can be enjoyed by the victim. Someone who realizes that is a myth but still enjoys the fiction is not necessarily a potential abuser. End rant.

(11) Verbal abuse: Constantly criticizes or says blatantly cruel things; degrades, curses, calls you ugly names.

(12) Rigid gender roles: Expects you to serve, obey and remain at home.

(13) Sudden mood swings: From sweet to violent in minutes.

(14) Past battering: Admits to hitting a mate in the past, but says the person “made” him (or her) do it.

(15) Threats of violence: Says things like, “I’ll break your neck,” or “I’ll kill you,” then dismisses them with “Everybody talks that way,” or “I didn’t really mean it.”


If you find that your behavior matches several of these signs, that does not necessarily mean you ARE an abuser, but it does mean that you should speak with a professional and discuss why you are worried about your behavior.

However, if you are already concerned, I doubt you are an abuser- if you were, you would be blaming this person, not yourself, for the retreating into the shell.

Pedersen
12-26-2007, 09:31 PM
(3) Controlling: Interrogates you intensely (especially if you’re late) about whom you talked to and where you were; insists you ask permission to go anywhere or do anything.
I don't do that. However, I have noticed a disturbing trend: She seems to feel like she needs to ask my permission to go out with friends. Yes, this bothers me. She should be able to say she's going out, and not have to worry about me.

(5) Isolation: Tries to cut you off from family and friends; accuses people who are your supporters of “causing trouble.”
I'm not trying to cut her off, and I think I'm trying to make sure she doesn't. But (for example) she didn't call her parents on Christmas. Pretty much, she doesn't call them at all, even though she seems to like them, and worries about them viewing her in a negative way.

(8) Hypersensitivity: Is easily insulted, claiming hurt feelings when he or she is really mad. Rants about the injustice of things that are just a part of life.
This I think I could be guilty of. I am way too sensitive when things don't go as planned, and I really shouldn't be. After all, life rarely goes to plan. And it's very easy to insult me, though I try to keep that under control, and explain why I felt that way should it happen.

(11) Verbal abuse: Constantly criticizes or says blatantly cruel things; degrades, curses, calls you ugly names.
I definitely try to avoid criticizing her. Try to make her feel special and loved. But I worry that I do criticize without meaning to.

(13) Sudden mood swings: From sweet to violent in minutes.
Violent? No. But my mood swings can be dramatic, from happy to angry to happy within short periods of time (sometimes over a few hours).

However, if you are already concerned, I doubt you are an abuser- if you were, you would be blaming this person, not yourself, for the retreating into the shell.

And yet, I have to ask: Am I being mentally/emotionally abusive, or manipulative, and not even realizing it? Is that what's causing this? Or am I just being overly worried about nothing at all?

Yes, I realize it might be a silly question, but reading these latest posts in this thread, and reading some of the brainwashing material that Mysty posted... I don't know. Hell, for all I know, I'm doing the same thing right now to people reading this. But I'm not actually trying to.

Help, anybody? Even better, insight, anybody?

Saydrah
12-26-2007, 09:49 PM
Questioning behaviors that trouble you is the first step to changing it. Maybe the girl you are talking about is depressed, or has a psychiatric disability that is just starting to affect her, or is simply going through a period of withdrawal. Maybe the codependent behavior (needing your permission for things) is something that she was raised to believe women who love the men in their lives are just supposed to do. I can't tell you if any of those are true or not, but a psychiatric professional can make a good guess.

If you are worried about her withdrawal and whether your behavior may be a contributing factor, I suggest couples' counseling- or, if she won't go, just see a therapist by yourself. If you don't like the therapist, try a different one- psychology professionals are like shoes; if you keep trying them on, you'll find a good fit, but the ones that don't fit can be really painful. I come from a family full of psychologists, some of whom are internationally famous in the field, so believe me, I've met a few and some are far less psychologically healthy than their patients! However, the great ones are out there, and they really do help people.

I don't know where you live, but in most areas of the United States there are many free or low cost mental health services available, even if you do not have insurance and don't qualify for government medical assistance. A google search should do the trick (even calling a local Suicide Prevention Hotline, emphasis on LOCAL, can help- they often are happy to help with issues that do not involve suicide and are as simple as needing to find low cost mental health care) but if you need help, feel free to PM or hit me up on AIM- my name is the same on AIM and the boards.

IMHO, you are a caring person and are examining your behavior in an effort to explain a change in someone you care about. That is a good thing, but your behavior isn't necessarily the cause or a contributing factor. Some people become dependent and withdrawn when in a relationship. I can be guilty of this at times despite being poly, and have to consciously make an effort to go out with people I'm not dating, as friends, or I just won't do it. The unfortunate thing is that no matter how much you change your behavior, you can't guarantee you will change hers; it could be that she is just a person who becomes withdrawn into a relationship instead of using the relationship as a secure place that gives her the courage to go out and do more in her life than she would if she were single.

The only thing I can really tell you to do is to continue to examine your behavior and make sure that you are continuing to make her feel loved and special, and also to examine what you are REWARDING with your behavior. Do you give her special attention when she chooses to spend a night alone with you instead of with friends and family? If so, maybe she is subconsciously interpreting that as you wanting her to spend all her time with you. Offering extra support and attention when she DOES go out could be a great reward.

A really nice thing my primary partner does for me to encourage me to be social is to assure me that any time my best friend (who I see far too rarely) and I want to go enjoy ourselves, if he does not have other plans, he will watch and walk my dog so I'm not worrying about the pup while I'm out having fun. He asks about my day and about how my friends are doing- even online ones. For example, last night he asked if I had heard from Jester that day, as he knows Jester and I have been talking on AIM almost every day for a while. Things like that can help her realize that you WANT her to have a life besides the relationship, and that she will not get any less time or attention or affection from you if she has fun with her friends and family.

Long post is long, sorry.

Eireann
12-26-2007, 09:50 PM
Adding to Saydrah's good post, I feel it VITAL to point out that even if the person doesn't show these strong signs, that doesn't mean s/he is a good person for a relationship. These control issues can start out very slowly and subtly, increasing as the controller gets the other person under control.

For example, in the initial stages, the person can talk about the "wrongs" that have been done to him/her, skillfully weaving the tale to make it seem that s/he has just the worst luck in the world, and is ever so put upon. GET OUT.

S/he "loves" his/her family completely. This is a tricky one. It could be that the person really does come from a close, loving family. It could also be that s/he knows that talking about the love of family is a great way to get a foot in the door. BE CAREFUL.

S/he doesn't laugh. This is something I've noticed with every controlling asshole I've met. They don't laugh. Either they make a sort of cawing noise that sounds like a laugh, or they just sort of exhale. However, s/he will say (about an event that s/he attended, but you didn't, for example), "I've never laughed so hard in my life." There are some people who laugh noiselessly, and I'm not including them in this warning list. You can see that they're laughing; they're just silent about it. The people to watch out for are those who don't laugh in any way; they just make a pretense of it. BE CAREFUL.

S/he doesn't cry, but talks about times when "I was bawling like a baby." You don't see him/her cry? But s/he claims to cry when upset? This is an attempt to get you to believe that s/he is sensitive. GET OUT.

One cute little trick is to speak in a low, soothing voice that sounds pleasant to the ear. This person doesn't raise his/her voice, even when upset, until you're sucked in. If you haven't seen this person raise his/her voice under any circumstances, regardless of the situation, it can often be an indicator that s/he is keeping bad temper under control for a huge blowup later. BE CAREFUL.

Drugs. Need I say more? Yes - GET OUT.

Fiscal irresponsibility. For some reason, s/he is always broke, despite working steadily. However, s/he is always buying frivolous crap. No money, but a lot of new toys? GET OUT.

S/he doesn't have any friends, or any close friends. S/he often slams those closest to him/her. GET OUT. This person doesn't know the meaning of friendship.

After spending some time with him/her, you notice that s/he is starting to criticize you. Little digs at your appearance, your job, your friends. It's usually so subtle that you don't notice it for quite some time. Noticed it? GET OUT.

S/he has problems up the ass and always bitches to you about them, but if you have a problem, you're "selfish" and "needy" for wanting to talk about it. GET OUT.

S/he doesn't show up on time whenever you make plans. GET OUT.

If you forget something, or goof up, s/he never, never, never lets you forget it. GET OUT.

You're expected to be there for this person, all the time, regardless of what is going on in your life, but this person can't be bothered to help you out, even for the smallest thing. GET OUT.

S/he always has an excuse for anything that is going wrong in his/her life - and it's always someone else's fault. GET OUT.

Another important thing to keep in mind is, in a dysfunctional relationship, the controller is just as addicted to control as the other person is to being a doormat. Hence the possessive behavior, the constant checking up on the doormat's movements, and all the rest of it. This is a person who CAN'T let go, of ANYTHING, and who MUST be in control AT ALL TIMES. It doesn't have to be an intimate relationship. It can be what passes for a friendship, it can be a working relationship, whatever. People too often think that a person who follows them, who checks up on them all the time, does it "because s/he cares". Uh, no. That is NOT what a caring person does, and it's NOT healthy. It's a lie that's given to the doormat, who believes it because s/he has relinquished power over his/her own life.

Remember, everyone, in many cases, it starts small.

MystyGlyttyr
12-26-2007, 09:52 PM
Help, anybody? Even better, insight, anybody?

I remember reading something in a book once..."Only creatures who have souls worry about whether or not they have them." I thought it was deep.

Now, my version of this would be: "The only people who don't worry about something are the very ones who should." The folks who never worry about whether or not their car oil is almost empty or never worry about getting a payment made on time are the ones who are STUNNED when their car breaks down or their service gets shut off for nonpayment.

Hearing about your SO's behavior, both from her actions towards you and what you mention she does to her parents, it sounds less to me like it's anything you've actively done, and more her expectations of what might happen. It sounds almost like she's experienced abuse before, and might have seen one or two of the negative behaviors from you that you admit to and drawn the conclusion that you ARE abusive, so she's assumed the behavior she's seen the submissive partner assume to survive.

You mention that she seems to like them, yet never seems to talk to them, and is very worried about their feeling negatively towards her. Now I'm not saying flat out that perhaps her parents were either emotionally or somehow otherwise abusive, but there's a fine line and they could have been toeing it several times in a way that made a deep impact on her. Maybe she had a friend who she saw up close and personal in this situation. Maybe she's just an overly meek and worrisome individual who doesn't know exactly how to act in a relationship, or isn't completely comfortable with you yet.

There's a zillion reasons for her behavior, but from what I can tell, it's not because you're abusive. You're not perfect, no, but nobody is. I think (and I'm not a psychologist, I just play one on the Internet) that this is most probably just a massive miscommunication between the two of you. It'd probably be best for you to just sit down and flat out ask her if you make her uncomfortable or what. Just lay it out blunt, ask her, listen to her answer, and go from there.

And if she stammers and doesn't seem to know how to answer, then the answer she's trying to say is "Yes" and then you have to figure out why she's so uncomfortable as to not even be able to be honest with you.

But yeah, if you had to pick out certain things on the list and sort of try to make them fit, then you're not an abuser. :)

Saydrah
12-26-2007, 09:54 PM
Mysty, I think that line was from the Tales of Mu web serial, wasn't it?

Sorry, I'll hide that fiction nerd-on, didn't realize it was showing.

MystyGlyttyr
12-26-2007, 09:58 PM
Mysty, I think that line was from the Tales of Mu web serial, wasn't it?

Sorry, I'll hide that fiction nerd-on, didn't realize it was showing.

I think it was the Xanth novels, actually, but I couldn't say for certain. I read more books before I was ten than most people read in their entire lifetimes. A lot of them have run together at this point. :lol:

Rapscallion
12-26-2007, 10:01 PM
Magician Humphrey from Xanth.

Rapscallion, slightly OT

Saydrah
12-26-2007, 10:05 PM
Hehe.

Well then, if you haven't already beaten me to it, you might like this story:

http://www.talesofmu.com/story/bonus-stories/bonus-story-all-about-soul

which is where I heard that.

MadMike
12-26-2007, 10:26 PM
I am not, repeat NOT a Dear Abby fan (I'm a Dan Savage person), but she republishes at least once a year a column on the warning signs of an abuser, which I find to be very true



As some people know, I was in a relationship with someone who I describe, for lack of better words, as "evil." Looking back now, she exhibited many of these signs, particularly 2, 3, 4, 5 (didn't try to cut me off from family, just friends), 6 (definitely!), 7, 8, 11, 13, and 15.

I put up with that shit for six years. Actually, I got tired of it after three, but then my son came along, and we ended up staying together, until it got to the point where I couldn't even count on her to be around to take care of him while I was at work, and kicked her ass to the curb.

After I got free, I felt like I never wanted to get involved with anyone again.

Saydrah
12-26-2007, 11:07 PM
Wow, Mike. Says a lot about you as a father that you put up with that for so long, and nobody could blame you for being a little sour on relationships after that.

MadMike
12-27-2007, 04:52 AM
Wow, Mike. Says a lot about you as a father that you put up with that for so long, and nobody could blame you for being a little sour on relationships after that.

I'm glad someone understands. Other people couldn't, including someone who wanted nothing more than to find a guy to settle down with, get married, and have kids with. She couldn't seem to understand what I had been through, and why I never wanted to set myself up for that again, even if she wasn't like that.

Jester
12-27-2007, 01:53 PM
Jester, I just hate being the one to tell you this, even though I have an idea that you've already figured it out.

She hasn't gone back to him just to leave. She's gone back to him.

I know. Trust me, I know. If it sounded like I wasn't sure, it was more that I was trying to explain the screwiness of her logic to her, not to myself. If that makes sense. (It's early, and I am SO not a morning person!

the warning signs of an abuser

Pedersen, just because you have a few things in your personality/makeup that fits the warning signs of an abuser does not mean you are one.

In both Saydrah's list and Eireann's, there are several points that could be said to fit me, some fairly, some not so, depending upon who you ask.

That being said, I am NOT an abuser. I am not perfect, and I certainly have my flaws (oh do I ever!), but while some things on the list fit me, I am not an abuser.

I don't know that you aren't one--you may be one of the few ones that are and recognize it and are trying to change--but my guess would be that you are not. While abusers will never admit they are abusers, and will go out of their way to justify, explain, and rationalize their behavior to other people outside the relationship, they rarely worry that they might be an abuser....they KNOW what is going on, more often than not.

Obviously, from this far away, and over the internet, none of us here can make a true psychological determination about you. But the fact that you are concerned about this is a good sign, whether you are an abuser or not. As has been suggested, talk to a mental health professional, both about yourself and the lady in question.

And good luck.

DannyboyO1
12-30-2007, 12:38 PM
Help, anybody? Even better, insight, anybody?

Couple's counselling. You both need reassurance that you're not totally crazy, and that the other person isn't totally crazy. Just slightly ;)

RecoveringKinkoid
12-30-2007, 02:10 PM
You know, upon quite a bit of reflection about this thread, I've come to a rather ugly realization about the situation that I posted a link to earlier (woman and teenage daughter murdered by abusive boyfriend). My friend Maurice, the girl's dad and the woman's ex, is suing the LAPD, and rightly so. If two people go missing for a month and the cops can't even bother to look in the house where they are, even after several frantic tips, there's a problem. You can't leave a coupld of bodies to rot in a house for a month and do nothing. Nobody can understand why the cops were so slack. So, yeah. Lawsuit.

But looking back over all this, I understand now. They were sick and tired of hearing this stupid woman complain about her violent boyfriend. They were sick of going out to the house on domestic disputes. Cops hate domestic disputes, they are the most dangerous of all calls they have to go on. They were sick of putting themselves at risk for a woman who wouldn't leave her abuser, over and over and over. So they quit taking her seriously. They got tired of her crying "wolf."

And then when they got good and bored with her, and quit taking her seriously, the wolf came and killed her. And more tragically, killed her daughter.

The amount of horror, rage, and helplessness we all felt was so heavy to bear, so I can't believe I can now actually can see the point of view the cops probably felt while dealing with this.

I think a lot of abusers know this. If they can get someone to keep putting up with being abused, they probably know they can get away with continuing to do this. This guy that killed my friend's daughter obviously thought he could get away with murder. And he probably would have if Maurice hadn't badgered the cops for as long as he did.

So by going back to BB, TD is going to have that much more trouble if she thinks she's going to leave again. No friends, no cops. Now she really is stuck. :(

Jester
01-25-2008, 01:22 AM
Tiny Dancer is dead.

According to Big Boy, who was in a local restaurant this morning, last night while they were watching tv, she went into the bathroom, and when she didn't come back, he went and found her hanging.

Most people down here do not believe this for a moment, and it seems that the cops do not either. When I called the department that would deal with this, the officer told me that he could not discuss the case, could not even tell me if TD was alive or dead, but referred me to the detective in charge of the case.

In the homicide division.

He then asked me if I understood what he was telling me. Yes, I read between the lines.

The cops are apparently investigating BB for causing TD's death.

Personally, I don't care what they find out, whether she did do this by her own hand or whether he killed her and staged a suicide. As far as I and a lot of other people are concerned, this fucker caused her death no matter how it went down.

This is so sad. Predictable, certainly, but so sad. She was so close to getting away from him last month.

If you pray, say a prayer for Tiny Dancer. She is in a better place. Because no matter what you believe, getting away from that asshole is a better place.

Now, if you'll pardon me, I am going to go drink myself silly. It's either that or go downtown and kill random assholes, and I'd rather stay out of jail for the moment, thank you.

Rest in peace, darlin'. And know you were loved.

Lil Bunny
01-25-2008, 01:25 AM
Oh Christ.

Jester, I don't even know what to say. Hell, I don't think there are words to express what I'm feeling right now.

If you need some hugs/good vibes sent your way, I'm on it. Becareful ok?

Oh, am praying for her as asked. Forgot that point.

Talon
01-25-2008, 02:07 AM
I'm sorry about your friend Jester.

Regardless of how she died, I hope she finds the peace in death she never found in life.

Saydrah
01-25-2008, 02:08 AM
I'm so sorry. You can't save everyone. :( As I said in messenger, don't beat yourself up- your niece needs all the love you can muster up to give right now as she recovers from her surgeries.

*HUGS*

Taking a few minutes of silence to remember her (though I didn't know her) and wish her well on whatever journey the parts of us that are not physical undertake after death.

Bella_Vixen
01-25-2008, 03:05 AM
I am in shock.



{prayers}

Der Cute
01-25-2008, 03:08 AM
TD, rest in peace, and when you're up there, snuggle with my old kitties, Pooky and Bitty. I'm sure you could use some love and I know they're needing some too.

Whether this is suicide or not, justice will be done. Have faith, Jester.

Cutenoob

Becks
01-25-2008, 03:10 AM
Wow.

I'm in shock.

My prayers, of course.

Amethyst Hunter
01-25-2008, 03:25 AM
Son of a bitch.

I'm so very sorry. :(

XCashier
01-25-2008, 05:34 AM
Jester, I am so very sorry. I can only imagine the rage, grief and pain you must be going through. You are also in my thoughts and prayers.

Kusanagi
01-25-2008, 05:50 AM
You have my number. Call me.

MadMike
01-25-2008, 06:46 AM
:( Oh shit...

That's all I can think of to say. :cry:

Jester
01-25-2008, 07:37 AM
Thank you everyone for your support, whether you wrote or not.

Tonight was....well, horrible.

After I posted earlier, I went out to the movies to get my mind off things, or try to. Saw Cloverfield. Excellent movie. Go see it. Unless you are scared easily....because it will screw you up.

Then I went to a bar. And to my credit, did not completely crawl into the bottle.

Not completely.

Came home, and started reading messages. And when I ready Mysty's PM, I started breaking down. And have been weeping periodically since.

And I don't cry. Man, what a bad month for someone who doesn't cry, huh? (Is there a smiley that is both laughing and crying? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?)

Been listening to various depressing songs, especially Candlebox's Far Behind.

Whether this is suicide or not, justice will be done. Have faith, Jester.

I have faith that justice WILL be done. The only question now is whether it is by the police and the courts....or by others. I am not the only person in town who is furious about all this. I am not even close to being the only one. BB's best bet is to get put away in prison for life. I know too many people who are too pissed off and are too violent and own too many weapons.

Fucker. I hope they release him. He deserves nothing better than a slow and horribly painful death. Preferably over several days.

Once again, I raise my glass in a toast to prison gang rape. I think I will get many to join me yet again.

By the way, I would post both her name (to honor her) and his name (to revile him), but I do not want to in any way take a chance in screwing up the court case against him. Just know that in not meeting her, you have missed out on meeting a truly sweet girl. I am the better for having known her.

Today is a day I could very easily overlook police brutality.

Raise your glasses with your favorite drink, folks....in honor of Tiny Dancer. Whatever her flaws, she never deserved this.

Cheers to you, babe. Cheers to you. :cheers: :crying:

Jester
01-25-2008, 08:09 AM
"though it hurts me...
way deep inside...
when I took a look...
and found that you're not there...
I tried to convince myself...
that the PAIN...
the PAIN is still not gone...
but still I drive...
down...
this lonely lonely road...
oo I got this feeling...
girl I gotta let you go...

'cause now youve got to fly...
fly to the angels...
heaven awaits your heart...
and flowers bloom in your name...
you've got to fly...
fly to the angels...
all the stars in the night...
shine in your name..."

My apologies to all of you and to Slaughter.....but it fits.

Allow me my moments of melancholy and grief, please. Even if they are set to an overdone power ballad from the nineties.

Sometimes even overdone power ballads can hit home.




And NOW suddenly I understand why their was fog last night!

I have not seen fog in Key West in years. It is a rare event. Last night was pea soup. Not the first tragic death down here marked by a bizarre fog bank either.........

crazylegs
01-25-2008, 08:54 AM
Allow me my moments of melancholy and grief, please.

Jester, you may have whatever moments you so choose.

My thoughts are with you and TDs family. Judging by what you have said I don't think BB will get away with this even if the police can't do anything.

Judging by the response of people who have mostly only known her through you and the postings on this thread I am sure she has touched a huge number of people in her short life.

Eireann
01-25-2008, 12:00 PM
That is just too much.

My bet is, TD was getting her act together to really leave him, so BB decided he'd show her a thing or two.

He won't get away with this. He already has a record with the police. They are well aware that he beat her almost senseless and left her outside; that he was stalking her and the friends who were trying to support her; that even though she went back to him, she was at least paying lip service to the idea of leaving him for good.

Well, now she HAS left him for good. And he's looking at a long prison stretch.

Now, BB isn't going to be facing a beaten, easy-to-manipulate woman in court. He's going to be facing the STATE. And he can't talk his way around the state and convince it to drop the charges. It's not going to happen. For the first time in his life, BB is going to face the music. I can only imagine how popular he's going to be in prison, when the other inmates discover what he's done.

Jester... there is absolutely nothing I can say or do to ease the pain, and I hate that more than I can say. Maybe I'll post some poems here later, if you like.

sportsmom
01-25-2008, 12:20 PM
Jester, I am so sorry for your loss. You and TD will be in my thoughts and prayers.

Hopefully they will get what they need to put the fucker away for a very long time.

Jester
01-25-2008, 01:12 PM
I just got off the phone with the detective in charge of the case.

Due to it being a pending investigation, he could not say much. However, he did say that it appeared initially to be a suicide. That being said, they are still waiting to hear back from the medical examiner, and they are very aware of BB's history and background, and as of this time, they are not ruling anything out, and are still investigating.

Even if they rule it a suicide though, everyone and his brother knows that he killed her. Even if she died by her own hand, he is responsible for her death.

May God have mercy on him....because no one else I know will.

RecoveringKinkoid
01-25-2008, 02:22 PM
I'm sorry, Jester. Sadly, not suprised at all. But that doesnt' make it any less awful, and I'm really sorry.

Ladies, this is how it ends. Sometimes sooner, sometimes later. But this is where it ends eventually if you don't get off before the final stop. And you don't know when the final stop is, so if you recognize the train, might be a good time to jump off now. Don't even wait for it to stop.

If they dont' prosecute this as a homicide, I am never going to stop throwing up.

This was not a suicide. I mean, come on. People who are serious about killing themselves don't do it on a bathroom run with someone sitting in the next room watching TV. People who are serious do it when they know they won't be rescued. So the idea that she did it with him in the house negates, at least for me, that idea that she was serious. So having said that, people who are NOT serious typically don't hang themselves, particularly when they are women. They take a half-assed handful of pills and then call for help.

And not only that, but they're watching TV, she walks out of the room and is gone for, what, however long it takes her to do the deed before he gets worried and comes looking for her? Yeah, horseshit. That story is so full of holes you could strain pasta through it.

Jester, if it's any consolation at all, when people do crimes like this, they THINK they have all their bases covered. They don't. They have no idea the things they missed when covering their tracks.

I'm sorry for your loss of a friend.

CaroPhoenix
01-25-2008, 02:45 PM
Jester -

I'll be lighting a candle for both TD and you. I'll remember TD in my prayers tonight (I just read the newest parts of the thread). You'l also be in my prayers too.

I hope justice isn't blind in this case and they find the one thing that points conclusively to it being homicide and they nail BB's butt to the wall.

If need be, you can find me on AIM. I'm around on the computer most days/evenings just hanging out so if you need (yet another) person to talk to, I'm here.

IDR

Bella_Vixen
01-25-2008, 04:20 PM
Controversial post included. I whited it out, so highlight it to read.


I don't normally condone violence, but I whole heartedly agree that BB needs the very worst done to him...dragged out as long as possible.

I'll supply the salt to rub into any wounds that might be caused.

lordlundar
01-25-2008, 04:23 PM
This may be my last post on this site, for what I am about to say will seem cold, heartless, and possibly put the other people on this site against me. Please understand this is not my intent, and if it does produce that very reaction, then delete this post and I will trouble the site no longer.

She did kill herself. Even if it is ruled a homicide, she did kill herself. She did that when she betrayed everything that was done for her and went back to him.

At no point do I think BB is innocent in this matter. He abused her and almost killed her before. He said sweet things or did something else to convince her to go back to him, where this abuse continued or even escalated. These are not the actions of an innocent man, these are the actions of a coward and a manipulator. Do not feel sympathy for him, but also do not seek his death, for he will get what's coming to him. If not the law, then his final judgment will ensure it.

However, she was not a young child who does not know any better, she was a grown woman who made her own choices. She had the aid of those around her and the support from people around the world. She chose to leave that to go back, and in doing so, chose to kill herself. Even if she had survived in body, you would never have seen her the same way again, as when she made that choice, she killed her spirit.

Jester, weep not for fear that you could have done something more. You did more than anyone, putting your own life on the line to help her, and even being there for her after she made the choice to go back. If you must cry, the do so for the loss of a good person, and relax in the thought that she will find peace being finally away from the turmoil that the mortal life brought.

Teysa
01-25-2008, 06:07 PM
*hugs* I am truly sorry this ended this way. As others have said,though, Tiny Dancer is now at peace where no one can hurt her again.

As far as you are concerned, don't be ashamed of feeling emotional over all this. It shows that you're a decent person.

tropicsgoddess
01-25-2008, 11:35 PM
Tiny Dancer is dead.

The cops are apparently investigating BB for causing TD's death.



:eek: I'm just shocked. I was hoping that she would finally get the gumption to get the hell away from BB's sorry ass. RIP Tiny Dancer. :( *Sorry I'm ringing in late, here* Jester, TD you are in my thoughts and prayers.

Irving Patrick Freleigh
01-25-2008, 11:45 PM
Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn. Damn.

That's all I can say. It was heartbreaking to return to this thread and find TD had died.

I can't always find the right words. She will be in my thoughts. And if it does turn out BB was responsible for her death, I hope they throw every book they possibly can at him.

justZu
01-26-2008, 01:29 AM
Jester, when I saw the thread had new posts I hoped to hear that TD had finally moved away for good. Instead I am so sorry to read this. My thoughts and prayers are with you and her family now.
Even though I believe that bastard will be judged and punished by God when he dies, I still hope he is sent away for the rest of his life and each day is made to suffer horrible agony in prison.


This is so terrible. I have been sitting here for the longest time just staring at the screen. Again, I'm so sorry for your loss.

MMATM
01-26-2008, 01:30 AM
I don't know what to say. I'm sorry Jester.

I hope BB gets what's coming to him, one way or another. I'm up on Skype, AIM, and Messenger usually 'til pretty late. PM and I'll get you the details if you want them.

Teysa
01-26-2008, 04:54 AM
*hugs* I am truly sorry this ended this way. As others have said,though, Tiny Dancer is now at peace where no one can hurt her again.

As far as you are concerned, don't be ashamed of feeling emotional over all this. It shows that you're a decent person.

Rahmota
01-26-2008, 05:04 AM
Agreed Jester. Never be ashamed to be sad over a situation like this. All it shows is that you have not lost touch with the forces of goodness.

As for BB he will be punished one way or another someday. His kind always do. It may not be someone with a badge but it will come to him.

Lundar said it well though. She was an adult and she choose her path. It is sad and unfortunate that it led to this ending. That the ones who had tried to help could not do more but each must live their life to their best. You could not live her life for her. But to remember her the way she was and honor that memory is all that can be done now. You tried to help. You tried to do what you could and she made her decisions. It is not your fault. It does not lessen the pain. It does not stop the hurt. Only time can bring that. Take care of your neice. Do what you can to stay safe yourself. And peace to you.

Seshat
01-26-2008, 08:54 AM
My sympathy to TD and all her friends and family.

And to all who read this, who recognise themselves in either role in this drama: ensure TD didn't die for nothing. Take her death as a warning, and seek help. Now. Today.

Locate your local Lifeline (http://www.lifeline-international.org/) counselling service, or do a google search on 'abuse counselling', and call. Most of these places have 24-hour call centres for people in need.

Ask the person on the other end of the phone to help you find the free services in your area - they'll either have the information themselves, or they'll know who to pass you on to. Keep following the chain until you get to the people who can help you. Then get that help.

If you recognise yourself at all in this story, make TD's death mean something in your life.

That will be the best gift you can give TD's friends and family.

marasbaras
01-26-2008, 09:15 AM
Sadly, this outcome is not surprising. Tragic.

Do what Seeshat says ... if you are in this position or know someone, do something. And, don't look back. Don't listen to "I'm sorry, I'll never do it again". ONCE IS TOO MANY TIMES ALREADY.

jb17kx
01-26-2008, 09:53 AM
Like most others I came to this thread expecting - hoping for good news. Tiny Dancer was on the up and BB had a noose pulling ever-tighter around his neck.

It still is.

It goes unsaid, Jester, that you and TD's family and friends have the support of every single one of us.

We have followed, purely out of interest and compassion, the affairs of a woman we've never met and a man I sincerely hope we never meet. The only commonality was through Jester - a man most of us know only through the proxy of the Internet.

Tiny Dancer's death was a tragedy of the highest order, one that saddens me and one that must surely have devastated all who were personally involved.

TD's choices aside, you Jester are to be commended for your efforts in attempting to rerailing her life. You did all you could do - but in the end it wasn't enough, and for that you mustn't blame yourself.

I feel obligated, though, to point out that posting threats of violence against BB is but a hair's breadth from condoning the very violence we despise BB for. Violence against any person, regardless of reason, is to be abhorred and I believe that we dishonour TD's memory as a sweet and gentle person by planning the drawn-out death of BB - as much as he may deserve it.

Big Boy has acquired a debt he can never repay, one that cannot be dodged like a bill for pay-per-view pornography. One day he will have that debt collected and he will regret for his every waking moment his actions in the past. This justice could come from the courts, it could come when it is time for him to move on - but it will come and it will be inescapable and deserved beyond all reprieve.

We should all take solace in the knowledge that TD is in a better place, and we should all learn from these sad happenings. Act when you can - the time may never come again, and regretting inaction is the one thing that is worse than regretting action.

My deepest sympathy to Jester, TD's family, and all others involved.

Jester
01-26-2008, 01:56 PM
If they dont' prosecute this as a homicide, I am never going to stop throwing up.

And not only that, but they're watching TV, she walks out of the room and is gone for, what, however long it takes her to do the deed before he gets worried and comes looking for her?

Well, they may not have the evidence to prosecute this as a homicide. To their credit, they seem to be treating this VERY seriously, and are looking at every angle. They know what BB is, and he is the kind of person they despise and want to put away. Hopefully the evidence will allow them to do so.

As for your second point, according to what I have heard, BB said she was gone for 15 minutes before he wondered what was going on and went and found her. And yes, most people think that that is a pile of horseshit.

This may be my last post on this site, for what I am about to say will seem cold, heartless, and possibly put the other people on this site against me.

She did kill herself. Even if it is ruled a homicide, she did kill herself. She did that when she betrayed everything that was done for her and went back to him.

It is not cold or heartless. It is true. When she went back to him, she signed her own death certificate. Everyone knows it.

That, of course, does not absolve him of guilt. He is still responsible for her death. Even though she made a horrible choice that pretty much ended her life, that doesn't change the fact that, directly or indirectly, he killed her. Period, end of story.

As for BB he will be punished one way or another someday. His kind always do. It may not be someone with a badge but it will come to him.

Sadly, you are wrong. His kind ISN'T always punished. All too often, they get away with this kind of stuff. I'd like to believe that that was not true, but if you pay attention to what happens in life, you'll see that it isn't the way things work. Sad and tragic? Sure. Welcome to real life. Hopefully, though, in this case it won't be the case, and he will be punished. One way or another.

Take care of your neice.

I am actually using this as an important lesson for all my nieces to learn from. My eldest niece actually knew and worked with TD, so it is a very harsh lesson for her. I do hope they learn from it. I really do. Because while I did everything I think I could have done for TD, had it been any one of my nieces, trust me when I say I would have done more. A guy lays a hand on one of my nieces, he'll be lucky if all that happens is he loses that hand. I've said it before, and I'll say it again....you don't fuck with Jester, you don't fuck with Jester's friends, but you sure as HELL don't fuck with Jester's nieces!

And to all who read this, who recognise themselves in either role in this drama: ensure TD didn't die for nothing. Take her death as a warning, and seek help. Now. Today.

Please. If you see any parallels here to your own life, this should be a wakeup call for you to take different steps then were taken in this tragedy. Since I doubt that most abusers would give two diddly shits about changing, I am imploring you ladies with every ounce of my being to use this tragedy as an example of what not to do, and if you find yourself in a relationship like this, remember: he won't change. It won't change. It won't get better. It can only end in horrible, brutal tragedy. Get. Out. NOW.

I feel obligated, though, to point out that posting threats of violence against BB is but a hair's breadth from condoning the very violence we despise BB for. Violence against any person, regardless of reason, is to be abhorred and I believe that we dishonour TD's memory as a sweet and gentle person by planning the drawn-out death of BB - as much as he may deserve it.

I would like to respectfully disagree.

BB deserves any violence coming to him, whereas TD did not. BB abused a sweet person half his size. TD did no such thing.

If someone takes it upon themselves to remove BB from the planet, very few people will shed a tear over him, and I kind of doubt the cops would mind all that much either.

This doesn't dishonor TD. Allowing an evil fucker like BB to roam free without any repercussions for his actions.....THAT dishonors TD's memory far more, if you ask me.

I honestly and sincerely believe that BB deserves to have the most horrible, painful, evil, brutal things done to him, for a long, long time. Does this sound vindictive? Well, news flash: I am VERY vindictive. I hope this bastard suffers a slow and excrutiatingly painful death. I PRAY for it.

I understand your viewpoint. I do. I just don't agree with it. I hope you can understand that.

In a minor update, at the request of her parents, TD will be cremated. I have no other news on this whole thing.

Other than to say that this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0tNjGHXft8) has never meant so much to me. :cry:

"A friend of a friend....a friend to the end....that's the kind of girl she was...." :cry:

Seshat
01-26-2008, 02:28 PM
Since I doubt that most abusers would give two diddly shits about changing,

Most don't, that's true. But some do. Usually the ones willing to change are the ones who are suffering in some way and the abuse is a symptom: in those cases, clearing the main problem up does a great deal towards fixing the abuse. But they still need help to change the behaviour patterns they developed while they were suffering, and which are now harming their lives.

Most commonly, in my limited experience of abusers-willing-to-change, the core problem is that they themselves were abused. In those cases, they need to separate themselves from their abusers and they need to learn how to make healthy relationships - while unlearning most of what they know about relationships.
Other causes can be psychiatric illness, or physical illness that has psychiatric side-effects. An abuser who 'just can't help it' should get a thorough physical and psychiatric assessment. Once their illness is treated, they'll need help to get rid of the behaviours they'd developed that were adaptations to the illness, and to learn how to cope better with any aspects of the illness which can't be completely cured.

A happy story: I know a man who suffered childhood abuse, and had all the behaviour patterns and problems common to such cases. He recovered, and raised a family, and was a generally good man with a basically happy life. It can be done: it should be done with professional help.

Be aware that it might well take months, years or even decades before you're 'safe'. However, your quality of life will improve within weeks.



WARNING for victims:
If you are being abused, DON'T TAKE THIS POST AS A REASON TO STAY. Get out, get to a safe distance, stay at that safe distance. Let other people be the ones to help your ex: you and your ex will both have behaviour patterns that will trigger the abuse pattern.
That's right: you could make it HARDER for him (or her) to change.

Only go back if BOTH his counsellor AND your counsellor believe it to be safe and helpful to do so, and ONLY once YOU have recovered from the abuse as well.

It will probably take years for you both to recover. Not days, weeks or months. Years, and possibly decades. Discuss with your counsellor whether it's healthy for you to wait those years: it probably isn't. Not for either side.

There will be someone else for you. There will be someone else for your ex. Give your ex the space he/she needs to recover. And give yourself that space too.


I honestly and sincerely believe that BB deserves to have the most horrible, painful, evil, brutal things done to him, for a long, long time. Does this sound vindictive? Well, news flash: I am VERY vindictive. I hope this bastard suffers a slow and excrutiatingly painful death. I PRAY for it.

You don't torture a dog with rabies. You put it to death as quickly, mercifully, and safely as you can.

If BB is one of those people born without empathy for others, born without a conscience, and unable or unwilling to strive to develop one, then nothing you can do will teach him any better. He'll never understand, never get it. Lock him up or put him to death (let's leave THAT debate for Fratching).

If he is capable of empathy, if he does have a conscience, then to cure him you need to appeal to that conscience. Need to somehow get him to understand what he did. I know curing him is probably not what you want right now: but if it were me, part of me would be wanting to make that #$&*^%#$@ understand what he did, make him feel it. I suspect that's part of what you're feeling.
Tormenting another person usually just makes them even more angry, rather than more compassionate.

On top of all of that, tormenting another person does something to the person doing it. Makes them somehow colder, changes who they are. I don't imagine TD would want to have her friends become colder and have them hurt inside like that.

Yes, I think BB should be put on trial, punished, and - if he's one of those who can't or won't ever understand what he did - stay separated from mainstream society for life. No, I don't think him suffering torments will do anyone any good.

But a small part of me wants him to get a chronic, disabling, painful illness.

marasbaras
01-26-2008, 02:36 PM
_IF_ BB is the killer, violence isn't justified. Just a swift and certain death.

Jester
01-26-2008, 02:51 PM
WARNING for victims:
If you are being abused, DON'T TAKE THIS POST AS A REASON TO STAY. Get out, get to a safe distance, stay at that safe distance.

Yes. Just because some people change, don't think that your abuser will. While there are those that do, it is a very very VERY small fraction. And odds are very against your abuser being among them. If you are being abused, you must assume that your abuser will not change. Because odds are overwhelming that he won't.

_IF_ BB is the killer, violence isn't justified. Just a swift and certain death.

I would like to respectfully disagree. I think any and all violence against BB is thoroughly justified and justifiable. But I understand that not all people will agree with me on this one.

One more thing: you said "IF BB is the killer...."

Well, he is. Whether she died by her own hand or his, he killed her. Period. He is responsible for her death. Whether directly or indirectly, he caused her death. And pretty much everyone down here familiar with the situation agrees with that premise.

There is no if. He killed her.

Dips
01-26-2008, 03:03 PM
ReformedWaitress and Jester,

I'm sorry I missed this thread when it started. There's no comfort for losing someone you've tried in vain to save.

I hope you find some comfort in knowing you did the best you could for TD. Sometimes you might have doubts you did your best. Doubts are normal, but don't believe them. You really did your best. And, if there is an afterlife, TD knows that now.

I know you're both going through some other very tough things in your lives right now. And now this. I'm so sorry. I wish there were something that could take your pain away. I wish life were fair.

I'm sorry.

Jester
01-26-2008, 03:14 PM
I wish there was something that could take your pain away.

Drop an anvil on BB's head? Or a piano? Or any other overused cartoon imagery?

I wish life was fair.

It isn't. No use pretending. But sometimes it can be balanced.

Amethyst Hunter
01-27-2008, 03:34 AM
Don't listen to "I'm sorry, I'll never do it again". ONCE IS TOO MANY TIMES ALREADY.

It won't change. It won't get better. It can only end in horrible, brutal tragedy. Get. Out. NOW.

Agreed. My mom told me once, years ago, "NEVER let a man hit you even just once, because then he'll think he can do it forever."

Of course, it helps that I'm naturally a stubborn/ornery type and thus more wary of falling into such a trap, but even so, I'm glad my mom said that to me, because it's one of the few things that's stuck long-term in my memory.


Violence against any person, regardless of reason, is to be abhorred and I believe that we dishonour TD's memory as a sweet and gentle person by planning the drawn-out death of BB - as much as he may deserve it.

BB deserves any violence coming to him, whereas TD did not. This doesn't dishonor TD. Allowing an evil fucker like BB to roam free without any repercussions for his actions.....THAT dishonors TD's memory far more, if you ask me.

Have to agree with Jester on that. I can agree that violence is something to be avoided whenever possible; however, there are just times where the shit needs to be thrown down, if only to protect future victims from spoogeberries like BB.

Speaking only for myself, if someone messed with any of my loved ones, they would have to clean up the resulting mess with a REALLY big sponge and a pool of bleachwater, and pry the blunt object from my hand with that Jaws of Life thingy they use to cut people out of car wrecks. And this is coming from a barely-5-foot, overweight, out-of-shape and combat-inexperienced person.

I have a temper, and I don't take kindly to my family and friends being messed with either.

Jester
01-27-2008, 04:42 AM
Much to report today.

First of all, I was very hungover today, as I went out and got a good ole drunk on last night. It helped somewhat.

But with that hangover going full blast today, as I was lounging around my place, imagine my surprise when one of my coworkers called to tell me that TD's parents and sister were at The Bar! I got their phone number, and called them a bit later (after I had woken up more fully and showered and all) and met up with them before I had to go to work.

Last night, while I was out getting soused, they were meeting with BB, and he pretty much pulled the wool over their eyes, as he played the dutiful and grieving boyfriend role to a T. That is....until they started talking to OTHER people today, such as my coworkers and managers and me and others. They started to wonder about things actually last night when they were in a bar with BB talking and more than one person pulled them aside to warn them what a piece of crap he was.

I added to that picture, but I told them "Don't believe me or other people. Go to the police and look at the reports of when he beat her, and look at the photos. That will tell you all you need to know." They are going to try to access those tomorrow. Today they got all of TD's stuff from BB's house, and also picked up her ashes from the funeral home. Her parents will be taking them back home to Chicago with them.

Sadly, the coroner and police seem to have ruled TD's death a suicide. Which means it apparently was. Because while BB is very adept at acting like something he isn't, he really isn't all that bright, and I have trouble believing that he's smarter than a trained medical examiner. But TD's family agrees with me that, whosever hand it was, it was still BB's fault, and that they wouldn't shed a tear if someone removed him from the planet, as the majority of people feel should happen. They were playing nice with him today, not letting him know what they had found out, because they wanted to make sure they got all of her stuff from his place first.

They are really nice people, I should add, and though none of the family saw it, all of us saw an very uncanny resemblance to TD in her sister's face, especially the eyes. It was almost unsettling.

In other news, my friend Frank and I are going to get together tomorrow and start planning TD's memorial, or as I prefer to think of it, a celebration of her life. We may make it a fundraiser for the ASPCA* as well, as TD loved animals and her family is asking people to donate to the ASPCA in lieu of flowers. If any of y'all want to donate to the ASPCA in TD's name, feel free to contact me privately, though I don't expect anyone here to do so as you didn't actually know her. Your support has been more than I could have expected already, to be honest. I am also going to try to get a local advocate for battered women involved as a speaker or some such....we are still hammering out the details. And we are going to invite anyone and everyone....except one person. I think we all know who THAT is.

A lot of people who knew her are still in shock, and I am hoping that something like this celebration will be a good way for us all to say our goodbyes to TD, and not whitewash her (she was FAR from perfect, and could be a real pain in the ass, among other things), but remember her how she was, both good and bad. And, just like almost everything else in Key West, it will be an excuse to drink....something TD would have relished greatly. :cheers:

More details as this all develops. If anyone has any ideas for this celebration, feel free to contact me.

*For those who don't know or don't live in the U.S., the ASPCA is the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. They do great work, and I strongly urge everyone to support them whenever they can, not because of TD, but because it is a great way to help out animals.

Rahmota
01-27-2008, 06:40 AM
Jester: A good Irish style Wake, Elven Celebration of Life memories is a very good idea. Weep not for the ending but laugh at the memories of the journey. And drink til the pain is numb.

I am glad her family is able to know about BB and what sort of scum he is.

Sadly, you are wrong. His kind ISN'T always punished. All too often, they get away with this kind of stuff. I'd like to believe that that was not true, but if you pay attention to what happens in life, you'll see that it isn't the way things work. Sad and tragic? Sure. Welcome to real life. Hopefully, though, in this case it won't be the case, and he will be punished. One way or another.


Maybe not punished by us. Maybe not punished anytime soon or in a direct way. The universe moves in its own time its own methods. it is unfortunate and disgusting that the "justice" system failed. But there will be a time when BB receives his payment for the evil he has done.

I am actually using this as an important lesson for all my nieces to learn from. My eldest niece actually knew and worked with TD, so it is a very harsh lesson for her. I do hope they learn from it. I really do. Because while I did everything I think I could have done for TD, had it been any one of my nieces, trust me when I say I would have done more. A guy lays a hand on one of my nieces, he'll be lucky if all that happens is he loses that hand. I've said it before, and I'll say it again....you don't fuck with Jester, you don't fuck with Jester's friends, but you sure as HELL don't fuck with Jester's nieces!

Family takes care of family. I will wholeheartedly agree. Someone harms my daughter or one in my care they will wish for death. My life for them. i hope they do listen and learn and care.

Good days to you Jester. May your friend find the peace she deserved.

Jester
01-27-2008, 06:48 AM
it is unfortunate and disgusting that the "justice" system failed.

I don't know that it failed, per se. I mean, if the evidence showed that she did, in fact, take her own life, they can't really arrest him or charge him with anything. The fact is there is no law on the books that can punish BB for contributing to her demise in the way he did. And I don't think that there should be, necessarily. It would be a very slippery slope. The one thing he COULD have been punished for, abusing her, he was not, mainly because of TD and her walking away from it and going back to him. It's all very sad, all very tragic, and all very true.

Please, folks: use this tragic tale as I have been using it: as a lesson to those you care about, your children, nephews, nieces, and other young people (and maybe not even so young) who may not recognize this kind of behavior for what it really is. Don't let one of them become a statistic.

Broomjockey
01-27-2008, 07:45 AM
As for laws on the books, reckless endangerment or promoting a suicide have both been used in similar cases. Then there's also civil suits.

Jester
01-27-2008, 07:48 AM
Okay, point taken. But as the only witness to what actually happened is BB himself, none of that could be proven.

Seshat
01-27-2008, 09:07 AM
That's a damn shame.

I have a vague suggestion for something that those of you who knew her might want to do: have a day every year that you all pitch in and do some volunteer work in her memory.

Everyone contributes to a 'pizza-and-beer' fund, food is bought that may or may not be pizza and beer (be sure to cater to the no-alcohol types too), and you all go through and - oh, spring-clean the local animal shelter. Spring-clean a women's shelter. Build something for a shelter. Do some garden work for them. De-rubbish a park, stream or beach, or do a tree-planting, or - whatever needs doing in your local community that feels right to you all to do.

Anything that requires willing muscle and makes something good happen. Disabled friends can coordinate, do relevant paperwork, handle the catering, or whatever is within their abilities.

It's just a thought, but it might be a nice annual event for your circle-of-friends, as well as being a memorial TD's friends and family would feel good about.

PepperElf
01-27-2008, 09:16 AM
I wish more people in bad relationships would get counseling. I am sure there's *nothing* they've never heard before.

One gal I knew last year had a similar situation...not sure where she is now because I left the country. At the time her husband was out of the country on work, so she had every chance to seek counseling, therapy, legal help... She chose not to do it because "he doesn't think we need it" and chose to complain to friends & ask tarot cards instead. She even came up with justification for him breaking into her phone bill to see who she was calling*...

After reading your TD thread it makes me sad... because I think this girl will end up in a similar situation if she doesn't seek help. And ... as I said before, I don't think she will.

*I didn't know it at the time... but he called me too. The number came up as unknown because it was overseas & he basically opened the call with "Who is this?" If I'd known then... I'd have been pretty livid.


but for bb... if the law doesn't get him... we know very well there's a level in Dante's imagination just waiting for him. :(


Edit: volunteer work for a woman's shelter sounds like a good idea. Just be sure they accept help from both genders since it's obvious that both men and women wish to do something in Tiny Dancer's memory.

jb17kx
01-27-2008, 10:12 AM
In hindsight my comments before may have been somewhat lacking in empathy. Naturally I will see things very differently to somebody who knew both BB and TD, but I perhaps did not account properly for that while composing my post.

I fully understand the view you take on the matter, Jester. BB is cretin, a scumbag, and his actions were vile and caused a woman to seek death at her own hand.

Had I known TD, then, from rereading this thread as a whole, I would probably be joining the queue of outraged and armed CSers outside his residence.

To those who took my post to be a chastisement or to condone BB's actions, I apologise.

Jester
01-27-2008, 01:53 PM
Edit: volunteer work for a woman's shelter sounds like a good idea. Just be sure they accept help from both genders since it's obvious that both men and women wish to do something in Tiny Dancer's memory.

There may be stuff men can do at women's shelters, such as paperwork or volunteer work outside the shelter, or something where they don't come in contact with the traumatized women. Remember, though, not all battered women are going to be freaked out by all men...it's not the same as rape, for instance. But obviously there can be some sensitive issues going on. For good-hearted people, male or female, there is always stuff that can be done to help. Or in this case, rather than volunteer at a women's shelter, volunteer at an animal shelter.

In hindsight my comments before may have been somewhat lacking in empathy.

To those who took my post to be a chastisement or to condone BB's actions, I apologise.

I don't think anyone took you or anyone else as condoning BB's actions.

I understand that not everyone is going to have full sympathy for TD, and I understand. Her poor choices contributed greatly to this, and she is not in any way innocent of blame. Nor has anyone close to her or the situation suggested that. TD was not a saint, and had many, many flaws, not the least of which was a generally bad record with men. She drank too much, she smoked too much, and was often a cantankerous, ornery, mule-headed, irrational pain in the ass. No one here should get the idea, as I said earlier, that she was in any way a saint. She wasn't. That being said, while she contributed to all that happened, she didn't deserve it. And most importantly, however flawed and exasperating she could be, she was still a friend. And THAT is what it comes down to.

I hope all of the above made sense. It is far too early in the morning for this night owl, and so much has gone on in my life in the last two weeks that I am just freakin' drained. But I think my basic points came through. I hope so.

Rahmota
01-27-2008, 07:12 PM
Okay, point taken. But as the only witness to what actually happened is BB himself, none of that could be proven.

This is sad but true. Too bad there's no gil grissom when you need them.

I hope all of the above made sense. It is far too early in the morning for this night owl, and so much has gone on in my life in the last two weeks that I am just freakin' drained. But I think my basic points came through. I hope so.
You made enough sense just fine Jester. I think everyone understands she was an adult and made her choices just like everyone else. Good bad or stupid we all make our choices. You did your best. Her friends did their best. Sometimes the best just isnt enough. It doesnt mean you stop trying or doing your best. It just means that sometimes the universe is bigger than what we can handle.

Jester
01-28-2008, 12:55 AM
Too bad there's no gil grissom when you need them.

No, the KW M.E. is probably not going to be confused with Griss anytime soon, but he is still an M.E., and as such, is probably not easily fooled by someone with the brains of BB, i.e., few that work other than the ones needed to con people into believing he's something he's not.


You did your best. Her friends did their best. Sometimes the best just isnt enough.

"Your best isn't good enough!" --Mr. Holland's Opus

Jester
01-28-2008, 02:50 AM
Okay, I may be repeating myself here, but what the heck.

I sat down with my friend Frank today and did a little brainstorming for the Celebration of TD's Life. We have figured out approximately where and when (a weekday after the Super Bowl at one of our local bars) and what (a Celebration that is also a fundraiser for the local ASPCA as well as offering some education on domestic violence). And we have a few ideas of what we are going to do.

But Frank and I are very similar, and have a lot of similar ideas. I want to hear some other ideas. What are some fun and novel things we could do at the Celebration to celebrate our friend's life and, as well, to raise money?

I await the collective wisdom of CS.com, which is massive. So bring it on, kids, bring it on! :D

EDITED TO ADD:

I suppose I should tell you some of the ideas that we are playing with so far.

Celebration ideas:

1. A picture slide show of various pictures of TD, possibly set to music.

2. Her favorite local band, if we can get them to donate their time. In this case, they may....they are really cool guys.

3. Possibly a trivia contest about TD. Not sure about this, because obviously this would be biased to her good friends, and we want everyone to have a good time.

4. Obviously, her friends speaking. This needs no explanation, I hope.

5. JUST THOUGHT OF THIS! Perhaps a "wall" where people express their thoughts about TD. Once it is all done, we can.....hmmm.....dunno.....send it to her parents in Chicago? Place it somewhere in town? Not sure about this one, to be honest.....but it is a way for people to express themselves, especially those who may not want to speak publicly.

Money raising ideas:

1. A 50/50 raffle. For those of you that don't know, people purchase raffle tickets, and at some point, you draw a winning ticket. The winner gets 50% of the total pot, the other 50% goes to the cause you are trying to raise money for.

2. A silent auction. I am going to go around to various businesses and establishments and attempt to get them to donate products, services, gift certificates, etc. These items will then be auctioned off in a silent auction, which is where people put down their bids in writing. Whenever you look at the paper for the particular item, you can see the highest bid. It is a way to auction off stuff all at the same time, and without as much tension or aggression as in a regular auction. In most cases, the winner gets the item for less than they would pay normally, and the cause makes money, and the donating business gets good PR. Sometimes, the item goes for MORE than its value, as some people are more than willing to buy it at more than face value when they know all the money is going to a good cause.

3. A Coors light chugging contest. This sounds odd, but this was TD's beer of choice, so it makes sense. And remember, A. this is Key West, just about everything is an excuse to drink and, B. this is supposed to be FUN!

4. A food buffet. My head chef at The Bar has already said he would donate some food. What we would do with that is have it semi-free.....basically, you buy a ticket for the buffet at $5 per person, which is still a killer deal. All money, of course, goes to the cause.

5. Beyond all this and other things we may come up with, OBVIOUSLY we will accept straight donations to the cause, for those who just want to do that. No fundraiser/charity event would refuse straight donations, actually.


So....what else?

flybye023
01-28-2008, 03:04 AM
One idea I have is actually one that came up this holiday season for "Secret Santa" type gifts but could easily be adapted for this type of gathering.

Each guest could bring a present that represents something about TD such as a board game she liked, a favorite food, shirt in her favorite color, etc. Then they could be given to a domestic violence shelter.

Crazeyal
01-28-2008, 03:05 AM
Well.. You had some contact with the woman's shelter during all this? There are undoubtably either 1 or 2 people of artistic talent or children there. Charity Art auction. You can even post them online. I'm sure an overview of exactly what happened and what was lost because of all this would attract attention.

You want to keep things as positive as possible. I don't know anything about this person other than what you've posted on here. It seems she was a DAMN good waitress. People liked her. Why not focus on that? Have a competition that's fun, full of energy, and can be held at a bar. Speed competitions for the wait staff (multiple drinks, multiple tables, one hand tied behind back, points off for spillage, best time wins) or somesuch.. and name it for her. That way something FUN can be attributed to her name, instead of the sadness that's there now.

myswtghst
01-28-2008, 03:12 AM
I think flyebye's idea is fantastic. Any kind of donations are a great idea, especially when they can be done in memory of TD.

I would definitely make a point to talk to any shelters or domestic violence organizations in the area to see if they have suggestions, or particular things they are in dire need of - some may not be able to take certain kinds of donations, but might really need others, and I'm sure would really appreciate the foresight of contacting them.

Good luck, and know that you're in all our thoughts and prayers, as is TD. Let us know how it all turns out - knowing what I do about you, I'm sure it'll be one heckuva party, which sounds like what TD deserves in her memory - her friends remembering her and celebrating her life.

Dips
01-28-2008, 11:40 AM
5. JUST THOUGHT OF THIS! Perhaps a "wall" where people express their thoughts about TD. Once it is all done, we can.....hmmm.....dunno.....send it to her parents in Chicago? Place it somewhere in town? Not sure about this one, to be honest.....but it is a way for people to express themselves, especially those who may not want to speak publicly.


That is a wonderful idea. I can tell you her parents will treasure those recollections. Stories and acecdotes about TD's life in Key West and the interactions each of you had with her would be especially meaningful. Maybe they could be typed up and placed in a notebook with copies of recent pictures. TD lived very far away from them and they can no longer ask her about her life in Key West; these will be their only memories of her time there.

morgana
01-28-2008, 04:13 PM
Jester,

I'm late coming back to this thread, and was horrified by the update. I understand and sympathize with your desire for "balance", and wish desperately that there was something I could do.

I know we don't propose violence toward others on this site, but is it permissible to hope that BB rots from the inside out? For a long time?

Damn it. While I can understand the battered woman POV (been there, done that, burned the t-shirt), I find it very hard to read about someone who got away and then went back.

Are you going to be posting an address for contributions from CS'ers?

Take care of yourself, Jester. Please.

Becks
01-28-2008, 04:26 PM
Have a pinata or six, meant to represent BB and charge people $1 a whack.

CorDarei
01-28-2008, 05:31 PM
Okay, point taken. But as the only witness to what actually happened is BB himself, none of that could be proven.

no one witnessed the deaths of ron goldman and nicole brown (except for OJ) and ron's father still filed a civil suit against OJ and won.... so there doesn't need to be a witness per se.... just proof that he caused her death, whether it's directly or indirectly.

Eireann
01-28-2008, 06:38 PM
For the "wall", why not use a series of postcards, or copies of pictures of TD? People can write on the backs of them. That way, it'll be very easy to send it to her parents, who will love you for it. You may also want to put together a photo album to send to them.

As a side note, watch out that BB doesn't try to sabotage the proceedings in some way. I'll bet he really got off on playing the role of the grieving boyfriend, and doesn't want to lose the limelight. He may attempt to crash the celebration - I don't know how, but he might.

A trivia contest would be a good fundraiser, with all the participants paying a certain amount to take part. Raffle off some yummy desserts. See how many businesses in the area would be willing to donate a gift certificate for a raffle, too.

And... I think it'd be just grand to let your local women's shelter know what you're doing. It'd be a huge benefit to battered women to see and hear what you're doing, and know that it could have been me.

It'd be what they need.

Geek King
01-28-2008, 07:22 PM
I finally made it here after a long week of just browsing the on topic threads. I wanted to scream in rage, and beat the holy hell out of something. Being at work, I just shut the door for a bit and cried some frustrated tears. Now that I've control of my self again, I can post.

Jester and ReformedWaitress: Dammit, but I'm sorry it turned out this way. The girl I once knew had a boyfriend put a bullet into her head, TD's killed her emotionally. Both are murder just the same. I know some of what you're going through, and it sucks. Completely blows, and I'm sorry. Either of you are welcome to PM me and I'll provide my number, or call you, if you need an ear that's been there to listen.

A preacher once told me that there is no justice in the world, and we're all damn lucky that's the case. I think I'll pray for some justice to be delivered BB's way. I'll also pray that TD gets a better deal in whatever passes for the afterlife. You two have my best wishes.