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  • F*ck you archery club president

    I've promised my coaches that I'd avoid stirring up shit on this, but I need to vent.

    So a little bit of explanation: Every local, state and national archery team that exists apart from one (the USA) uses a method of shooting called the Korean standard method. This is mostly because the Koreans are "meant" to be the best archers internationally. About 20 years ago, a Korean guy said "fuck that", left, made his own technique up and named it after himself, the KSL method. There is not a huge noticeable difference on the field, but when you're coaching and teaching others, the KSL method is much trickier for new archers to pick up. There's also the fact that the KSL method is NOT recognised by ANY archery governing body in the state (there's 3 main ones in this scenario: Archery NSW, Archery Australia and FITA [Federation of International Target Archery]) and it's not used by any other club except ours (the guy in question is the coach of the US team). THere are 3 levels of coaching: Level 1 has to be supervised by a Level 2 or 3 coach, Level 2 and 3 coaches can work solo. These coaching accreditations are NOT recognised in any way by the governing bodies.

    Up until the end of last year, the president of the archery club the school runs at had no problem with my coaches being recognised as "official" coaches. Both of them are fully accredited coaches by the state and national governing bodies (ARchery NSW and Archery Australia). Neither of them are willing to use the KSL method because it's trickier to pick up for new archers, it tends to skip a lot of the fundamentals and puts more emphasis on "Target panic" instead of correct foundations and keeping things consistent. (my coach also will actually take the time to outfit everyone with the right equipment first rather than just turning them loose onto an archery supply store)

    Apparently though, because my coaches are refusing to use the KSL method, the president has barred them from coaching at the club. They can both still shoot there and one of my coaches has represented the state at national-level events and we can still shoot there, just we are no longer allowed to receive lessons underneath them. While one of my coaches has no issue with the KSL method itself, he does not like to use it for his students. (He also does not teach "pro" level shooters, everyone shoots on an amateur level)
    The club president also enforced a rule that everyone now has to wear their club shirts while shooting at club tournaments in an effort to be "professional." It is literally that, state or national level shirts only. No archery branded shirts or other alternative shirts.

    Both coaches are now looking at other options, as are several of us who shoot with him. They're pretty much left with 3 options:

    -Hire out the section of the archery range that is available to the public and use that to run classes.
    -Join another archery club that will accept them (and us). Given that no other club in the state likes my club (apart from maybe 1 or 2), this will be an easy move. On top of that, because all of us are registered with the state and national bodies (all clubs require you to do this), it's just a matter of simply showing our cards to get a reduced fee if we join later in the year.
    -Start our own club...this will more than likely not happen.

    I am also not kidding in the sense that we will join them if they move clubs. Sure we could all go and find other coaches, but given that we're all equals, we all help each other out (I have been known to correct one of my coaches a few times as English is not his first language) and when he held a BBQ, we all clustered around him like the Knights of the Archery Table , it's a given that our loyalty is to him and not to the club.

    On top of that, we found out that the president of the club is pulling another dick move. There is a website out there for the KSL method that is run by some other guy and has been running for at least 10 years. The club president apparently decided that wasn't good enough and set up not only his own website, but a "governing body" that he's labelled very close to the national and international bodies. It's enough that someone could not tell the difference between the two, think that they're receiving better coaching than the club up the road and find out that it's not the case. It's actually enough as well to turn new archers off the sport. The "governing" body is NOT in any way sanctioned by Archery NSW, Archery Australia or FITA.

    TL, DR: Archery club president decides that the method he likes is better than keeping it simple, forces all coaches to use it and bars anyone else from coaching unless they conform to his standards. President also pulls dick move to set up his own websites that market the method as being "better" and that it's sanctioned by various governing bodies, when it's only accepted by his own. It's basically what you DON'T want.
    The best professors are mad scientists! -Zoom

    Now queen of USSR-Land...

  • #2
    One of the reasons so far I haven't actually gone to any clubs and we shoot on private land. That plus a few get snooty over Traditional Longbow around here and hate it if you aren't using sights etc and want to use a "plain" bow.

    I'm starting to see if I can get into a club now as a non re-enactment friend wants to shoot (and she's a natural from what I saw when we were on a holiday weekend) and dreading it...
    I am so SO glad I was not present for this. There would have been an unpleasant duct tape incident. - Joi

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    • #3
      Quoth Gizmo View Post
      One of the reasons so far I haven't actually gone to any clubs and we shoot on private land. That plus a few get snooty over Traditional Longbow around here and hate it if you aren't using sights etc and want to use a "plain" bow.

      I'm starting to see if I can get into a club now as a non re-enactment friend wants to shoot (and she's a natural from what I saw when we were on a holiday weekend) and dreading it...
      Funnily enough, over here shooting barebow is seen as odd. My great uncle (American) shoots barebow and found it odd that I don't.
      The best professors are mad scientists! -Zoom

      Now queen of USSR-Land...

      Comment


      • #4
        It has been a long time since I shot Archery. We never had any "official" trainers in my town, and when the Archery club burned down, well, killed the sport for everyone except hunters (who get longer seasons and wider range of targets, then rifle hunters).

        But I do have good memories of Archery. And being a prepper, I am learning how to make my own bows (I learned how to make the arrows and fletching (sp? feathers that stabilize the fight) while in Boy Scouts).

        I wonder how the rest of the club will react to the loss of members (and possible legal action for the president making the website look too much like the "official" ones)?

        Good luck on finding a new club, hopefully the travel will not be that much different.
        I might be crazy, but I'm not Insane.

        What? You don't play with flamethrowers on the weekends? You are strange.

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        • #5
          Quoth Gizmo View Post
          One of the reasons so far I haven't actually gone to any clubs and we shoot on private land. That plus a few get snooty over Traditional Longbow around here and hate it if you aren't using sights etc and want to use a "plain" bow.
          Wait a minute... I used to be friends with someone who shot using an English longbow with about a 100lb draw weight. The reason there are no sights on a longbow is that the draw is so great that holding at full draw for more than a few seconds risks shearing the bow string through your fingers. A properly trained longbowman (or longbowoman) should be able to draw and release in very nearly one movement and know from that movement where the arrow should land (see below for further details on longbows).


          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow


          Even normal bows can be nasty if you're not careful. I once used a combination bow and didn't have my fingers properly in the finger guard; the guard slipped a bit and I sliced the inside joint of my index finger pulling back too hard on the string.
          "It is traditional when asking for help or advice to listen to the answers you receive" - RealUnimportant

          Rev that Engine Louder, I Can't Hear How Small Your Dick Is - Jay 2K Winger

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          • #6
            Quoth greek_jester View Post
            Wait a minute...
            All agreed. A bit of a cross over here - I have a fibreglass Nomad bow which I'd also like to use. They don't want to put sights on the longbow. Its more that the attitude is "you need to be using a REAL bow...." as if a Longbow or a Nomad isn't a real bow and if you haven't got the full sights etc job then it doesn't count. We shoot for fun not for doing competitions.

            And yes, one of the first things I corrected a friend on when we were away doing the archery thing was not to hold at full draw for long because a) it hurts you and b) it makes you shake. Her aim improved a lot after that! (So much that I owe her dinner. )
            Last edited by Gizmo; 01-07-2015, 06:01 PM.
            I am so SO glad I was not present for this. There would have been an unpleasant duct tape incident. - Joi

            Comment


            • #7
              Quoth Gizmo View Post
              And yes, one of the first things I corrected a friend on when we were away doing the archery thing was not to hold at full draw for long because a) it hurts you and b) it makes you shake. Her aim improved a lot after that! (So much that I owe her dinner. )
              I had this problem for a while (I shoot recurve freestyle* with a 24lb bow).

              So a slight update: my coaches are now holding clandestine classes at the range. The beginners are having their lessons elsewhere (since we don't actually use our bows) while the slightly more advanced folks are shooting at the range with him checking on everyone every now and then. Given he runs an online equipment store as well, there is a legitimate reason for him to be at the range and not doing much.

              While I can shoot 20m at a target with a bow and my arrows, I'm stepping back a bit as I haven't had much practice over the holidays and I've gone a bit soft. We've also discovered that while I'm "grouping" nicely on the target, my groupings aren't centre. So back to stretch band practice for a bit until my upper body strength has improved and my foundations are getting better (we've since discovered that I have to basically act like a concertina because I'm quite busty )

              *-This is where you're shooting recurve with the stabilisers and whatnot on your bow.
              The best professors are mad scientists! -Zoom

              Now queen of USSR-Land...

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              • #8
                Quoth Gizmo View Post
                Its more that the attitude is "you need to be using a REAL bow...." as if a Longbow or a Nomad isn't a real bow and if you haven't got the full sights etc job then it doesn't count.
                A couple points:

                1) In some classes of competition, compound bows/sights/stabilizers/mechanical releases/etc. are prohibited. You MUST use traditional-style equipment (don't know if modern materials such as fiberglass are allowed, or if it has to be a wooden bow).

                2) At Agincourt, the English used longbows without all the modern crap. Those people need to ask the French knights whether they think the English used "real bows".
                Any fool can piss on the floor. It takes a talented SC to shit on the ceiling.

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                • #9
                  Quoth wolfie View Post
                  2) At Agincourt, the English used longbows without all the modern crap. Those people need to ask the French knights whether they think the English used "real bows".
                  I do medieval re-enactment. Ok due to safety and the size of the arena most limit to 45lb (some 60lb). However I still can attest how "real" damage can be from a longbow. (and that is with the rubber safety blunts (redheads) we use in the UK.
                  I am so SO glad I was not present for this. There would have been an unpleasant duct tape incident. - Joi

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Quoth wolfie View Post
                    2) At Agincourt, the English used longbows without all the modern crap. Those people need to ask the French knights whether they think the English used "real bows".
                    And they used woolen arrows. Why else would they be described as "Clothyard"?
                    I am not an a**hole. I am a hemorrhoid. I irritate a**holes!
                    Procrastination: Forward planning to insure there is something to do tomorrow.
                    Derails threads faster than a pocket nuke.

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                    • #11
                      Quoth dalesys View Post
                      And they used woolen arrows. Why else would they be described as "Clothyard"?
                      I believe that in the Middle Ages, units with the same name but different sizes were used for different things. A "clothyard shaft" was an arrow a yard (in the context of measuring cloth) long.
                      Any fool can piss on the floor. It takes a talented SC to shit on the ceiling.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hey, a fellow archery fan. I also practice archery, though my bow club is a traditional club only - I think anyone coming in with a modern metal and pulley bow would be quietly stared at by the whole group before someone ventured to ask them where their real bow was.

                        In my case, I use a horse bow, as I found the draw with a horse bow to be the most pleasant. (It also fits into my car a bit better then an unstrung longbow would have...)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Quoth Hanzoku View Post
                          Hey, a fellow archery fan. I also practice archery, though my bow club is a traditional club only - I think anyone coming in with a modern metal and pulley bow would be quietly stared at by the whole group before someone ventured to ask them where their real bow was.

                          In my case, I use a horse bow, as I found the draw with a horse bow to be the most pleasant. (It also fits into my car a bit better then an unstrung longbow would have...)
                          Heh, I shoot recurve (no pulleys). My partner shoots longbow though and he freaking adores it. Although he needs to find somewhere else for his arrows as he's now down to 2 after his last few shoots. He's joined a traditional club as well, but that club has also extended an invite for me to join them for a shoot if I so wish. (his longbow is currently half-stored in the case it came in with a mailing tube shoved over the ends. For reference, his is a 30lb 70" bow)

                          I also have another slightly more awesome update: the father of one of the kids that has lessons through my coaches has provided a place for him to do some classes as part of the business his family runs (a small gym). The non-shooting classes will take place elsewhere, those archers who are shooting 20m will learn at the gym and anyone who's shooting further than that will "learn" at the club. (the max distance for women is 70m, men is 90m)
                          The best professors are mad scientists! -Zoom

                          Now queen of USSR-Land...

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                          • #14
                            Would a quiet heads up to the official archery sites about this guy trying to make his site look like theirs result in anything? Such as requiring him to take down or change his website, since he's clearly attempting to appear official and thus is fraudulent?
                            You're only delaying the inevitable, you run at your own expense. The repo man gets paid to chase you. ~Argabarga

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                            • #15
                              Quoth Kittish View Post
                              Would a quiet heads up to the official archery sites about this guy trying to make his site look like theirs result in anything? Such as requiring him to take down or change his website, since he's clearly attempting to appear official and thus is fraudulent?
                              That's the plan. I'm laying low for a week or so while my coaches set up their alternate options. He may be required to change his website, but that's about it. When I do leave the club, I do also plan on leaving an anonymous scathing letter on the club noticeboard (we all have access to it, as there's a sign-up sheet there if we can't use the biometric sign-up)

                              What might help slightly is that FITA has changed their name to the World Archery Federation. (FITA=Federation Internationale de Tir a l'Arc) Basically it just makes his case look even worse .

                              The KSL website won't be changed, as there is clearly a difference between the two-the legitimate KSL website looks less sleek, but has a ton more information. His website is "sleeker".
                              The best professors are mad scientists! -Zoom

                              Now queen of USSR-Land...

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