Married or Unmarried? Is this hard?

[bankworking]

I work on home loans.

I work in a "dowry" state. This means: if you are married and live in this state, your spouse has a right to half your house. Name on deed? Doesn't matter. Married=dowry right to half.

As such, we have to ask: Married or Unmarried? If there are multiple people on the deed, we have to ask each person. We have to know the names of the spouses. The spouses will need to come in to sign to agree to the loan.

Yes, even though they aren't on the deed (didn't I already mention that?)

Yes, even though they aren't on the loan.

Yes, your spouse.

Because you live in a dowry state.

Because it's the law.

Bank X down the street has to follow the same law.

Yes, they really do.

No, I will not change your marital status to "unmarried."

How do I know you're married? Because you told me so when I questioned your change of name from the one on the deed. In an e-mail. I can read what you told me back to you, verbatim.

No, you cannot claim that you are unmarried when it isn't true. You will be asked to sign in front of a notary attesting to such, among other things. Purposefully lying on a notarized document is perjury.

Yes, that's a bad thing.

No, I cannot advise you do the loan elsewhere and say you aren't married.

Separated does not = unmarried. Present a finalized divorce/dissolution decree signed by the judge or spouse needs to sign.

Yes, it is possible to use a POA to sign for your spouse if the POA covers mortgage documents, but we must verify that the language is valid, that the POA has not been revoked, and it must be recorded with the county.

Because we're suspicious over a spouse who has expressed a desire to lie to make things easier using a POA to sign for their soon-to-be-ex.... (no, I didn't say that in those exact words...)

No, the limited POA your soon-to-be-ex spouse signed over to you specifying that you could take care of his charge account with X Store does not allow you to sign mortgage documents.

I'm extremely sorry, but the new POA with your spouse's name misspelled and still not specifying mortgage documents won't work either.

No, the prison notary your spouse is signing in front of probably doesn't know how to prepare the document correctly, as notary does not equate to lawyer.

Yes, we have a title company we work with that will prepare a POA for you. It will cost $ which I can include in the closing costs of your loan.

Because they are lawyers. They don't prepare legal documents for free.


... le sigh.

[wolfie]

I work in a "dowry" state. This means: if you are married and live in this state, your spouse has a right to half your house. Name on deed? Doesn't matter. Married=dowry right to half.

Just curious, but what happens in the following situations:

- Resident of the state, own a vacation property in another (non-dowry) state?
- Resident of a non-dowry state, own property in a dowry state?
- Own property which is only subject to dowry due to residence in a dowry state, move to a non-dowry state? Is this subject to a "race condition" if the marriage is on the rocks, where the order of change of state of residence and filing for divorce affects whether the dowry still exists, or has been extinguished, for purposes of asset division?

Also, how do corporations affect this? If, before marriage, a person sets up "12345 statename inc", with them the sole owner of the corporation, and transfers their house to the corporation (with them proceeding to rent it from the corporation), does the spouse have a right to:
- Half the corporation?
- Half the house (since the corporation owning it is 100% owned by "slick")?
- Nothing?

Also, what happens if, instead of a divorce, the marriage is ended by an annulment ("rolled back" as if it never existed) - does the not-on-deed spouse lose their right to half the house (since in the eyes of the law, the marriage which gave them that right never happened), or by death? If the not-on-deed spouse dies, does their estate have the right to dispose of the half-interest in the house, or does their right to half the house get extinguished by their death? If the on-deed spouse dies, does the surviving not-on-deed spouse automatically get the whole house, does the estate have the right to dispose of the whole house, or does the estate have half the house while the not-on-deed spouse has the other half?

[Sheldonrs]

I work in escrow and the confusion we get is people thinking "unmarried" is the same as "single".
It isn't on escrow forms.

Single = never been married
Unmarried = No longer married

[An Haddock]

Just curious... what if you have a pre-nup in a dowry state?

[taxguykarl]

As if that doesn't complicate matters enough: For tax purposes, one can claimed to be unmarried if living apart from one's spouse for at least the last 6 months of the year....divorce decree or not.

[Ghel]

It's the same here in Minnesota, and it's one of the hardest things to explain to customers. We have a large elderly population in my area, so my variation is often:

You deeded the house to your kids to avoid probate when you die? Ok, but we'll need the kids and their spouses to sign the mortgage. One of the kids got divorced since then? Ok, but we'll need a certified copy of the divorce decree to record with the mortgage.


Wolfie, I think the answers to your questions are going to vary from state to state. But whether the dowry law applies will be determined, I think, by where the property is located. Also, transfering a property to a corporation would require both spouses to sign the deed, same as if they were selling it to another individual. And annulment isn't a thing in Minnesota.

[wolfie]

Also, transfering a property to a corporation would require both spouses to sign the deed, same as if they were selling it to another individual. And annulment isn't a thing in Minnesota.

That's why I mentioned transferring it to a corporation BEFORE getting married. At the time of the transfer, they're not married, so there's no spouse who would need to sign the deed.

[Ghel]

If the property is owned by the corporation before marriage (or even if it's bought by the corporation during the marriage), then the other spouse wouldn't need to sign anything. Neither of them own it; the corporation does.

[bankworking]

Just curious, but what happens in the following situations:

- Resident of the state, own a vacation property in another (non-dowry) state?
- Resident of a non-dowry state, own property in a dowry state?
- Own property which is only subject to dowry due to residence in a dowry state, move to a non-dowry state? Is this subject to a "race condition" if the marriage is on the rocks, where the order of change of state of residence and filing for divorce affects whether the dowry still exists, or has been extinguished, for purposes of asset division?

Also, how do corporations affect this? If, before marriage, a person sets up "12345 statename inc", with them the sole owner of the corporation, and transfers their house to the corporation (with them proceeding to rent it from the corporation), does the spouse have a right to:
- Half the corporation?
- Half the house (since the corporation owning it is 100% owned by "slick")?
- Nothing?

Also, what happens if, instead of a divorce, the marriage is ended by an annulment ("rolled back" as if it never existed) - does the not-on-deed spouse lose their right to half the house (since in the eyes of the law, the marriage which gave them that right never happened), or by death? If the not-on-deed spouse dies, does their estate have the right to dispose of the half-interest in the house, or does their right to half the house get extinguished by their death? If the on-deed spouse dies, does the surviving not-on-deed spouse automatically get the whole house, does the estate have the right to dispose of the whole house, or does the estate have half the house while the not-on-deed spouse has the other half?

It's about the state laws where the property is located. We almost always do primary-residence home equity loans, so in my case, the property address and residence address are identical. In theory, we do vacation homes also, but I personally have never done so. If I did, I would follow the laws of the state where the house is located.

Death does dissolve the dowry right, in my state at least. Probate and/or the estate can deal with determining the proper new ownership.

If a corporation owns the business, the corporation does not have a spouse. BUT a married person signing their deed over to a corporation would need the spouse to sign over the dowry right in order to do so, otherwise the deed is defective.

[Fun fact: if the deed 4 transfers ago is defective, so is Every. Single. Deed. following the defective one. Sometimes an affidavit can resolve the defect. Sometimes... the ownership is unclear. Which is a lawyer way of saying you don't own the house as much as you think you do and the bank ain't gonna risk using it as collateral. Unless no one questions your ownership for something like 25 years (probably varies state to state); then you're in the clear again despite the defect. This is why you should ALWAYS get a title search done when you purchase a property. And consider owner's title insurance, just in case.]

I have never seen an annulment case, but it would probably work same way a divorce or dissolution would. If we have reason to believe you might not be as unmarried as you are trying to claim you are, give us the official, signed letter from the authority that performed the annulment. In general, if a person states they are unmarried, we believe them unless evidence (or statement from the customer) indicates it might not be the actual case.