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If you're going to lecture me on something at least know what you're talking about.

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  • If you're going to lecture me on something at least know what you're talking about.

    So I was at till, as per the usual, when one of my regulars came up. We were having a discussion about our horses and the beginning of the show season. To clarify this is not the SC. She always buys a huge amount of groceries ($300-$400 dollars worth is average) and so we usually have a lot of time to catch up and chat.

    We were out of stock for some of the things she wanted so I had one of the baggers write out some rain checks while I served the next customer (this is the SC).

    The woman went on and on about how cruel horsebackriding is and how I should be ashamed of myself for putting a saddle and bridle on it. (Him dear SC, 'it' has a gender and that gender is male.) I pointed out that I haven't used a saddle since my first year of riding unless I'm showing (it's illegal to show bare back here) or the barn I'm at doesn't allow for bareback (liability reasons). She tried to explain that horses are 'happier in a field all day.' (I know more then a few horses who would quickly get bored of that and get up to mischief) oh, and how 'stuffing grain and carrots down their throat' (like I have to force my horse to eat carrots, the boy is a pig) is unnatural and wrong because 'wild horses don't need to eat it'. Of course arguing that the reason wild horses can get by on being grass fed is because they don't have to expend much energy unless predators show up goes unheard. The grain is to keep them fat and healthy, because show horses expend a hell of a lot of energy. Especially when it's hot out like it is these days.

    That 'all horses should all be released into the wild where they will be happier and healthier'. Which is not the case at all. Wild horses have had many years to adapt to their environment whereas show horses have had many years to adapt to theirs. Breeding has resulted in certain physical characteristics that would make living wild damn near impossible. There's a reason most 'wild horses' (which if we're talking about the well known mustang is technically a 'feral horse' breed as they were introduced by the europeans coming to the new world. They are a result of domestic livestock surviving and breeding after they got separated (ie. Survived shipwrecks off the coast and swam ashore, were abandoned, broke loose for whatever reason, their rider had an accident/fell/was attacked by local wildlife and they took off, spooked dumped their rider and ran off, etc) from civilization.) are usually small (pony sized give or take) with compact bodies (https://goo.gl/images/NyDGB2 mustang. You can practically draw a square across the back down the back leg, across to the front leg and back up the leg and chest to the withers). What you don't see in 'wild' horses? Long legs like the Thorobreds (https://goo.gl/images/4v6XSV if you look at the picture you will also notice that the 'belly' of the horse curves sharply up towards the hindquarters. This was developed as a way to aid the horses speed and stride by giving the end responsible for propulsion more room to move). Horses like the Arabian were designed to shed heat because they are a desert breed originally intended for warfare. Rather difficult to wage war if your horse drops dead because it overheated standing around. (https://goo.gl/images/2G28Up the dished face, slender 'delicate' look of the Arabian all contribute to shedding heat. It is to be noted that they can and do in some places survive wild but those are places/environments that they were bred specifically to withstand in the first place. Those small hooves and longish but not too long legs do quite well on the sands or in scrub... Not so well in the woods running from a predator.) But In this climate they pretty much need a blanket in winter (or to be brought in) or they freeze. Not to mention the high strung or easily bored horses would have a hard time surviving wild because they would be constantly moving. Either from boredom (grass today, grass tomorrow, grass the next day) or because something they saw and weren't to keen on. Oh and draft horses have the problem of food. It takes a lot of food to feed a draft even when they aren't working. More then they can get on grass unless it's damn nutritious (anyone heard of winter). The average wild horse can spend anywhere from 12-16 hrs grazing just to remain healthy. So... SC, tell me again how my horse would be so much better running 'wild and free'?

    Then there's things like hoof care. Wild horses have hard hard hooves for just about any terrain. Most domestic horses need shoes or they come up with problems. Saddlebreds in particular seem to have a problem with soft hooves which can result in splitting, abscesses, or other problems. Then there's the problem of temperature. An over heated horse can get medical aid or a bath if necessary when its domestic. Or a blanket put on it in the cold, or brought inside, fed a warm mash. A wild horse doesn't have that option. They might be able to find water deep enough to cool down... Might. And natural obstacles like dense tree line or natural caves could help keep them warmer. But they still have to find it. Then they have to find food nearby that can support an entire herd.

    Oh, and apparently I'm cruel for 'forcing a metal bit between their teeth.' Umm, they do realize that the bit sits behind the horses teeth. Not between them? Besides, I usually ride in a hackamore. Which doesn't have a bit.

    And as for 'pulling on the horse's mouth all the time', that's a sign of a very bad/incompetent rider. The reins are used to -direct- the horse not yank its head around. You shouldn't be reefing on the horse's mouth at all. That 'tenseness' in the reins that she used as an example is called 'having contact' and if you actually watch you'd notice that the wrists remain flexible and will follow the horse's action so they aren't catching the horse in the mouth.

    That being said, mistakes happen. A horse could catch a rider off guard by getting a 'long distance' to a jump and the rider might inadvertently get left behind. If you look at videos of 'worst falls' or 'riding accidents' 9 times out of 10, it's the riders mistake or late reaction to a surprise. Yes, it may be the horse's 'fault' for stopping in front of the jump. But if the rider is sitting properly (heels down, not leaning forward, etc) then they won't be thrown forward and off by the sudden stop. If their horse is balanced properly the horse won't fall down into the jump (usually when that happens the rider was caught off guard and momentum pushed the riders balence forward which upset the horse's balance as the animal tried to redistribute its own weight from the sudden stop. And then the question of why? Was the horse going the right speed, was the distance weird (would he have to chip in or reach for a long distance to try to make it over), is it a confidence issue (horse or rider), were they on the right lead, was the rider clear in their communication of what they wanted, were they both properly balanced? All are really easy things to go wrong. If you're nervous at the height of the width and you squeeze with your knees instead of using your lower leg when the horse picks up on that and hesitates, then your lower leg will likely swing back and forth with the horse's stride which does not put you in a secure position and can confuse the horse. Imagine if your boss came up and started ordering you around in Spanish when you only speak English and say, a bit of Italian. There's enough crossovers between Spanish and Italian that you might be able to pick out a few key words but you're likely completely lost. And then you get yelled at for not understanding what you were asked to do or doing it wrong.

    A lot of accidents are caused by a misinterpretation of what the horse thinks the rider wants. To use an actual example, when I was first learn to ride without stirrups I concentrated so much on my lower body that I neglected my upper body. I more specifically had a habit of letting my reins get too long and then I lost the ability too steer because I was too focused on staying on. My horse that day cut the corner of the ring and ended up pointed at a jump because with my reins long I couldn't steer her back to the track. She interrupted my lack of correction as my desire to jump it. Which she did. I ended up sitting on the horse's withers ahead of the saddle (I didn't fall off though) but the horse was completely confused as to my reaction. Most horses probably would have sped up and then either veered or refused from lack of direction and support so I was lucky there.

    Even after I'd finished with her she stood there lecturing me while I served other customers. If I ever said half of what's in my head to a customer I would be immediately fired and probably blacklisted from working with people.
    Last edited by EricKei; 06-12-2017, 11:27 PM. Reason: fixed broken image link
    Don’t worry about what I’m up to. Worry about why you are worried about what I’m up to.

  • #2
    A Horse song: "Sitting On The Fence" - Groovelily
    I am not an a**hole. I am a hemorrhoid. I irritate a**holes!
    Procrastination: Forward planning to insure there is something to do tomorrow.
    Derails threads faster than a pocket nuke.

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    • #3
      Yikes. Why do people feel like they should go on these lectures? I think part of it is that people think they can say whatever they want to an employee because they're trapped behind the register and can't escape their ramblings. Or even better, they can't argue because they're at work. So they feel safe spouting nonsense.

      Also, all the people I've ever know who have owned horses have been really great with them. I mean, I know there are always dumb dumbs who neglect animals, but the idea that horseback riding is cruel is pretty laughable. Whenever I rode I knew that horse could toss me if he or she felt like it.
      Replace anger management with stupidity management.

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      • #4
        Quoth notalwaysright View Post
        Yikes. Why do people feel like they should go on these lectures? I think part of it is that people think they can say whatever they want to an employee because they're trapped behind the register and can't escape their ramblings. Or even better, they can't argue because they're at work. So they feel safe spouting nonsense.
        Most of these people also know zip about animals, especially whatever animal they are currently babbling about. And this bullsh*t about "roaming free" is grossly overrated. I'd like to see the people advocating this put out to "roam free" and see how well it works for them.
        Customer service: More efficient than a Dementor's kiss
        ~ Mr Hero

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        • #5
          Quoth Pixelated View Post
          ... see the people advocating this put out to "roam free" and see how well it works for them.
          Brer Bear says: "Very well." Belch!
          I am not an a**hole. I am a hemorrhoid. I irritate a**holes!
          Procrastination: Forward planning to insure there is something to do tomorrow.
          Derails threads faster than a pocket nuke.

          Comment


          • #6
            That woman needs to be gagged with a crupper. Horse people will probably know why, but anyone else can highlight: it's the part of a harness that goes around a horse's ass
            Any fool can piss on the floor. It takes a talented SC to shit on the ceiling.

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            • #7
              Quoth Pixelated View Post
              Most of these people also know zip about animals, especially whatever animal they are currently babbling about. And this bullsh*t about "roaming free" is grossly overrated. I'd like to see the people advocating this put out to "roam free" and see how well it works for them.
              I know what you mean. The amount of times I've been told that it's 'cruel' to use my Andalusian to do dressage ('because it's not natural!' Of course. Never mind that the entire foundation of dressage was built upon natural movements and helps increase the horse's body awareness and balance) or that I shouldn't use my Arabian for three-day eventing. Or I'm too heavy/tall to ride an Arabian (I'm barely 5.4? 5.6? Not entirely certain since I've never bothered to check... And my Arab is 15.2hh)

              I tried asking her how much she thought a horse needed to eat to be healthy? SC's suggestion. Grass feed and maybe one haynet a day.

              Here's what I feed my Andalusian. (Yes I use a calculator, what of it?)
              (recommended amount in brackets)

              Dry matter (14.2kg) 14.2
              Digestible energy (29.1) 29.3
              Crude protein (940.4)1000.3
              Lysine (40.4) 54.8

              Minerals/ Micronutrients

              Ca (43.7) 43.4
              P (31.6) 31.6
              K (42.6) 31.4
              Mg (16.4) 10.7
              Na (27.8) salt lick
              Cl (72.6) salt lick
              S (21.3) 21.4

              Vitamins/other nutrients

              Co (0.7) 0.7
              Cu (141.9) 201.0
              I (5.0) 4.0
              Fe (567.5) 1002.4
              Mn (567.5) 560.5
              Zn (567.5) 560.5

              A (24.6) 26.4
              D (3601.4) 3600.2
              E (1091.3) 1102.4
              Thiamin (68.2) 64.2
              Riboflavin (27.3) 34.6

              Mind the calculator I like to use doesn't have an option for things like supplements in the diet but based on the options they had this was the result. Keep in mind that my horse is a working competitive stallion not a trail ride pony.

              Bit more complex then tossing a haynet in once a day, eh? This is based on a twice a day feeding.

              Oh and more exercise? SC suggested that the paddock was perfectly fine and if they needed to 'run around' (because apparently that's all exercise is) that they would do so themselves.

              My horse has what's considered heavy workload hence the food intake is based on 2.6% of its body

              [definition of heavy: 4-5 hours per week at 20% walk, 50% trot, 15% canter and 15% gallop with some jumping or other skill. I don't usually gallop but I spend more time cantering then the 15%]

              If you want to see what happens to a horse left at pasture just YouTube any horse rescue video based on neglect and look at the condition of those poor beasties.

              Oh and the SC response to grooming. 'When they're dirty I suppose.'

              I groom before and after riding. When the winter coat is shedding or has been shaved for summer. Or just whenever I'm bored and up there.

              Apparently grooming means just use a body brush according to SC and she's never heard of a hoof pick.
              (Curry comb, stiff body brush for body and neck, soft brush after that and for legs, face brush for face, metal part of the hoof pick to clear dirt and stones, brush part of hoof pick to dust out the rest and to brush the dirt of the outside of hooves, brush mane and tail [I use a hair comb with wide teeth and then a stiff hair brush, and if I'm showing I'll follow up with a soft hairbrush. The same kinds used on humans.], braid mane and tail [my horse has a ridiculously long mane so I keep it braided whenever possible], soft cloth to remove any stray hairs, oil on hooves. And that's assuming the horse hasn't been sweating or needs a bath.)

              According to her hoof picks are cruel. 'why would I jam that in there?' (Umm, maybe to avoid pain and irritation? Or stone bruises? Among other things) Well, for the same reason you clean under your nails and remove splinters from your body. Because that shit don't belong there and if you've ever seen a nail bed fungus out of control then you'd know how disgusting it can get. Not to mention the health problems.

              Oh and tack maintenance? 'Well it's leather so you don't need to do anything. After all my leather jacket never needs anything.' First of all your pleather jacket doesn't go through half as much. Secondly, aside from removing dirt and grime (usually with a cloth and some saddle soap) you also have to maintain it. I use an oil because it's natural and I like the smell. There are chemicals you can use too if you prefer that, though I prefer my tack not to smell like an overused air freshener thank you very much.

              I also had a laugh at what she thought the costs were like. $100 for a good competition saddle? Please, tell me where you shop. I use a Dover Saddlery Circuit Premier Special EQ as it's cheap for a saddle (1099$Canadian) and it suits all my disciplines that I do so I don't have to have multiple types. My girth is again Dover Saddlery (I'm sensing a pattern here) Stitched Hunter girth($169). I use Dr. Cook's Beta BitlessBridle ($89) because neither of us likes bits and it allows me to use the same bridle for both horses by just adjusting the straps (if you're a horse owner I highly recommend it). After that I don't really want to be replacing them every year so I take damn good care of them (I've had both for about 15yrs.)
              I use a Dovers Saddlery Lite Pad($15), in black if you care.
              I don't know the exact model of stirrups or the cost as they were a gift, same with the halter. My grooming kit was assembled piece by piece because I used to have grooming supplies available at the barn I rode at so there was no rush. These things only really have to be replace if damaged/worn/broken. So their one time costs. That's already $1372 for tack alone. Halter was probably about $40 and grooming supplies about $25 give or take. So about $1437 for stuff I don't have to replace all the damn time. Average board is about $600-$800 here but I lucked out and got board for $150.

              So that's $1587 and we haven't even got on the horse yet. Add another $200 for feed oh and then there's vet/farrier bills. The cost of the horse itself (again I lucked out. Big time.

              Show clothes ($600 but I've been using the same outfit for over a decade.) gloves ($20 every 3 months give or take) riding boots ($100 I use paddock boots and half chaps)

              That's a conservative amount for everything you need. That gets you a good balance between quality and cost. There are more expensive models of everything and there's cheaper (but shit quality) variations. I went for things that suited me, my horse, and what we would be doing balanced with not being rich. It took 15yrs to get my own horse. I got most of my tack second hand from other riders at the stable or deals with the local tack shop. I'm am not rich, I wish, but no. Hell, my grooming bag is still the bag my helmet ($200 because I won't skimp when it comes to rattling my brain cage. I already have brain damage from my sport even with the helmets) came with.

              Oh and the horse's I have. Andalusians start at about $8,000 but I've seen them for $20,000 pretty often. (I happened to be good friends with the owner so I got him for $1200 which was a steal.)
              Arabians are relatively cheap here but given the breeding farm from the freeze mark? I don't even want to know. She was an SPCA rescue and they don't care about pedigree.
              Don’t worry about what I’m up to. Worry about why you are worried about what I’m up to.

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              • #8
                I find it funny that after posting this a banner for dover saddlery pops up.
                Don’t worry about what I’m up to. Worry about why you are worried about what I’m up to.

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                • #9
                  What an ass. Yes, let's turn them all loose in the wild. Then we can hit them with our cars like we do deer while they roam for grazing land. Did she buy any meat? Cause your horse is treated a million times better than beef cattle. Most horses are well taken care of with good food and lots of love. If it was that cruel and painful to be ridden, they wouldn't allow it. They'd buck you off or lay down or get sick. The first humans to ride horses would have given up. Instead, it appears to be a symbiotic relationship. My grandfather had a farm: cattle, sheep, occasionally a goat, one awful year geese. I'd be willing to bet she has never actually interacted with anything but cats and dogs.

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                  • #10
                    Sable Island horse

                    Maybe someone should leave her on Sable Island, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sable_Island_horse

                    I like this paragraph:

                    "The Sable Island horses are a feral horse population that is entirely unmanaged: they are not subject to any kind of interference. Observational research, which is considered noninvasive to the herd, has been conducted by various entities over several decades. The population in recent years (2009 and onward) has varied between 400 and 550 animals. Due to the lack of predators, older horses often die of starvation after their teeth are worn down by a lifetime of exposure to sand and marram, a tough grass. A lack of nutritional food on the island limits the horses' size, and the offspring of those removed from the island and raised on better diets are significantly larger."

                    Yes, these horses live wild and free, and they also starve to death when they get old.

                    Living with nature is ssssoooo wonderful.

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                    • #11
                      Quoth Shyla View Post
                      ... I'd be willing to bet she has never actually interacted with anything but cats and dogs.
                      If even that. But if so, I'm very sorry for those cats and dogs.

                      Her comments about cruelty remind me of the comments I occasionally see under videos of kids schmoozing with cats. "Oh, that's so CRUEL to the cat!" Look, idiot, cats do not take unwelcome handling lying down. If the cat was annoyed by the kid's attention, it would at the very least get up and walk away.

                      Quoth earl colby pottinger View Post
                      Maybe someone should leave her on Sable Island, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sable_Island_horse

                      *snip*

                      Yes, these horses live wild and free, and they also starve to death when they get old.

                      Living with nature is ssssoooo wonderful.
                      Most of the people who twitter on endlessly about "nature" are likely the ones who stay as far away from real "nature" as they can get.

                      Somebody needs to tie her to a chair and force her to watch some of those really well-made educational videos about the history of humans. Back when humans lived "naturally", 30 was ancient and you likely died before or around 35 with a multiplicity of health issues. Stone-ground flour, for example, does a lovely job on your teeth enamel over the years, which at some point would become extremely painful. Then you had parasites, the Black Plague, TB, cholera, etc. etc. etc. -- all of which are quite "natural." Their diets were often nothing to write home about either ... and let's not forget the droughts and floods that killed off the crops and domesticated animals, and the results of those.
                      Customer service: More efficient than a Dementor's kiss
                      ~ Mr Hero

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                      • #12
                        Straight from the horse's mouth Pity you were trying to explain it to a horse's ass. >_<
                        "For a musician, the SNES sound engine is like using Crayola Crayons. Nobuo Uematsu used Crayola Crayons to paint the Sistine Chapel." - Jeremy Jahns (re: "Dancing Mad")
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                        • #13
                          Well then, maybe dogs and cats would be better off wild...breeding a couple times a year, most of the offspring dying before reaching breeding age, and the ones that do often become part of the food chain between two and five years.

                          One woodsman posted a video of his rescue of a buck deer. A second critter had achieved room temperature, and the live one's antlers were hopelessly entangled with the other. The guy actually had a small saw with him and sawed off antlers until the deer was freed. People think of nature like it's a Disney film...and they're usually thinking Mary Poppins, not Bambi.

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                          • #14
                            I'm sorry, but I have to jump in.

                            Could everyone please remember that dogs and cats are also domesticated, they don't do well on their own either.

                            I have had hundreds of feral cats TNR'd because "cats do just fine on their own". They don't. They spend their few short years breeding and looking for food.

                            Back to the feral horses, I've never seen one that looked like it wanted to eat a carrot out of my hand. They are just like feral cats. Corner them and you will get hurt. I'm not willing to take on a starving 6 lb cat, I'm certainly not going to corner something bigger than me!

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                            • #15
                              For some reason, she reminds me of one of those people who pop up in YouTube video comment sections of wild animals fighting and shriek about how the cameraman was abusing animals by letting them hurt each other and "not doing anything" to help.

                              Okay lady, next time you see two black bears going at it, YOU get between them, I'm sure they'd appreciate your even-handed diplomacy....

                              They're also the kind that think owls are being "mean" when they eat "poor innocent mice"

                              Well what are they SUPPOSED to do? Hit up a vending machine?!
                              - They say nothing good happens at 2AM, they're right, I happen at 2AM.

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