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  • The great signature debate

    This is a story from a coworker, not one of my own.

    First I should say that I know in the US and other parts of the world you must show/ask for ID when using a credit card, but here in Ontario (and as per my store's policy) ID is only needed when:
    1) a card is not signed
    2) the signature is illegible/has completely worn off
    3) the signature on the card does not match the signature they gave on the slip they signed

    Onward.

    A cashier who was working next to me at the time told me of a man who paid with a perfectly signed credit card, was not asked for ID, then flipped on her.
    Their conversation, as told to me by her, went something like this:

    SC = well, SC
    CW = coworker

    SC: Why didn't you ask me for my ID?
    CW: Your card is signed and I can read the signature perfectly so I don't need to.
    SC: Yes you do!
    CW: No we only need to ask if the card isn't signed or if we can't read the signature.
    SC: You're wrong! I don't care what your bosses have told you but you're wrong!
    CW: Ok. I'm doing what my job asks of me but sure.
    SC: I work for the bank so I know these things. You're wrong. What if someone stole my card, huh?
    CW: Then unless they mastered your signature they wouldn't match up then I would ask for ID.
    SC: No. I work for the bank. I know the law!

    (Sidenote: in case anyone missed that, banker now equals law professor.)

    CW: Well I know how to do my job and I know when I have to ask and when I don't.

    I should also note that this particular cashier does her job very well, and although she seems unassuming in her small, young stature, she has a take-no-shit, I'm-not-letting-your-crappy-attitude-get-to-me way about her. So imagine if you will a girl about 19, 110Lbs soaking wet sternly telling a man who, no matter his size, is certainly lager than her, that she knows what's up and she's not hearing any of his crap.

    She gave me more details about the conversation, but it was essentially just him yelling at her in a crowded store for several minutes about how she's wrong, she's compromising his personal security, he knows the law, we're all wrong, she doesn't know how to do her job. You know, the typical SC rant.

    My argument to him would have been, "If you work for the bank and you know you're supposed to show ID every time you use your card then why didn't you have it ready for me?"
    Though I'm sure he would have gotten flustered and spouted off something about "testing" me. Right, whatever.

    The problem I have with this is so often we get similar rants when we DO ask for ID for the reasons stated above.
    We can't win for losing with these people.
    Last edited by rerant; 10-25-2007, 07:23 PM.

  • #2
    Quoth rerant View Post

    First I should say that I know in the US and other parts of the world you must show/ask for ID when using a credit card,
    Why would you think that?

    The rules are the same here, the merchant is required to match signature on card to signature on slip.

    And that's about it.

    The only time you're [I]supposed[I] to ask for identification is if the customer has put instructions (i.e. "Ask for Identification" or "CID") on the card.
    I have a map of the world. It's actual size.

    -- Steven Wright

    Comment


    • #3
      Quoth TonyDonuts View Post
      Why would you think that?

      The rules are the same here, the merchant is required to match signature on card to signature on slip.
      Since we're so close to the border we get a lot of American customers coming through our store (most with illegible signatures for some reason) and they always thank us for asking for ID, stating that it's required to ask for ID where they're from (usually New York state) and they really appreciate us asking. They usually tell us how so many people don't ask when they're supposed to, so really I'm just going by what I'm told by American customers and many of the things I've read on the board.

      Quoth TonyDonuts View Post
      The only time you're [i]supposed[i] to ask for identification is if the customer has put instructions (i.e. "Ask for Identification" or "CID") on the card
      Policy at our store is also that if there is no signature and no mention that we need to check ID they have to show us ID otherwise we can't accept the card at all.
      No ID, no signature, no purchase.
      But of course the fact that we do this for people's protection doesn't factor in with people.
      Last edited by rerant; 10-25-2007, 07:32 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Yeah, the whole "credit card and asking for ID" question comes up a lot, here, because a lot of stores have as part of their policy that they ask, and a lot of customers flip out over the whole issue.

        As per the merchant agreement that exists between credit card providers (Visa, AmEx, MC, etc) and vendors (or the processors they use), identification is only to be requested when there is either no signature on the card, or the signature on the card is illegible, or the signature on the card is not close enough to the signature on the receipt.

        Otherwise, clerks are not supposed ot ask for ID, and the providers strongly discourage them from doing so as they get all sorts of complaints from SCs when it happens.

        [edit to add]

        Oh, yeah, and there is no law about it either way. It's a contractual matter between the two parties involved, and therefore, a civil matter.

        ^-.-^
        Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden

        Comment


        • #5
          Ohh I'm so happy we don't have that problem here. Here almost everybody use a debit card with a PIN code. The customer just puts in his/her card, enters the PIN and here you go. I only ask for ID when it is a foreign customer with a credit card with no PIN (thus the need for a signature) or if the customer buys for over 4000 DKR (around $770)

          Must be sucky to either ask for ID and customer flips, or don't ask for ID and.. customer flips..

          Comment


          • #6
            we check every ID for every credit card...signed or unsigned...we get lets of people who get pissed off and whine that they dont have it...and we say than we cannot accept your card..do you have a different form of payment

            This is not a corporate policy...this is a store policy..kind of like managers must check all 50 and 100 dollar bills. This has been forced on us due to the HUGE amount of counterfitting (I live in a tourism area and we get a lot of counterfit bills). This week I caught 4 people with signed cards who tried to use credit cards that werent theres (it turned out to be a spouse's credit card...but dont allow someone to use a credit card if their name isnt on it).
            "I hope we never lose sight of one thing, it was all started by a mouse" --Walt Disney

            Comment


            • #7
              As an aside, if enough people complain that you ask for ID whe you're not supposed to, there is a very real chance that the card provider will cut you off so that you can't accept that card any longer.

              This happens most often with companies that try to charge extra for credit card payments, but that's not the only time.

              ^-.-^
              Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden

              Comment


              • #8
                Quoth rerant View Post
                First I should say that I know in the US and other parts of the world you must show/ask for ID when using a credit card
                I actually have heard that in other parts of the world (particularly parts of Europe) ID is mandatory. It's an interesting contrast from Visa/MC policy here in North America.
                "Well, ergo cogitum daltitum e pluribus shut your piehole." -Mike Rowe

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                • #9
                  I keep both in the same part of my wallet(debit card/credit card and ID)_I hand them both over at the same time as my signature is usually illegible.
                  Honestly.... the image of that in my head made me go "AWESOME!"..... and then I remembered I am terribly strange.-Red dazes

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have "See ID" written twice on my credit card and on both debit cards (two different banks, if you're wondering) -- once written right side up and once upside down.

                    I use my cards a lot. I've quit carrying much if any change on me, so plastic is a lot more convenient to use. Aside from certain stores which seem to have an always-ask policy, I don't get carded much. (Granted at my regular pizza place, this is understandable. They know me quite well!) Thus, I'm considering putting "SEE ID!" on the front of the card as well.

                    I rarely use my debit cards AS debit. Even though it's truly two-factor authentication (something you have, plus something you know) the 4-digit pin is weak, and I'm just that paranoid about shoulder-surfers.
                    Supporting the idiots charged with protecting your personal information.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      On the occasions that I use my cc, I don't automatically have my ID ready, but I sure don't pitch a fit if I'm asked!

                      Can you believe that back in the "dark" ages (early '80's) my store's corporate insisted on customers providing a major credit card as "secondary ID" in order to write a check. No cc? no check purchase. This was before the days of checks being scanned, and they all had to be looked up in a book listing names of people who had passed NSF checks in the past.
                      Everything will be ok in the end. If it's not ok, it's not the end.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        IF you ask for ID then people get pissed BUT if you DON"T ask for ID then people get pissed. You can't win either way.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Quoth TonyDonuts View Post
                          Why would you think that?

                          The rules are the same here, the merchant is required to match signature on card to signature on slip.

                          And that's about it.

                          The only time you're [I]supposed[I] to ask for identification is if the customer has put instructions (i.e. "Ask for Identification" or "CID") on the card.

                          And I can count on my hand the number of merchants in my area that check ID, which is why I always have my ID out every time I use my card. Most of the time, they wave it off.

                          Hell, if I buy less than 25 bucks worth of stuff at my local Borders, they don't even bother asking me to sign the slip. I really don't like that.
                          Random conversation:
                          Me: Okay..so I think I get why Zoro wears a bandana
                          DDD: Cuz it's cool

                          So, by using the Doctor's reasoning, bow ties, fezzes and bandanas are cool.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The Rules for Visa Merchants book is 141 pages long (including the covers) and is very clear on this topic. See page 28 for clarification as to any parts of this discussion.

                            http://usa.visa.com/download/merchan..._merchants.pdf

                            Cliff Notes Version is here:

                            "An unsigned card is considered invalid and should not be accepted."
                            • Ask the customer to sign the card. The card should be signed within your
                            full view, and the signature checked against the customer’s signature on the
                            ID. A refusal to sign means the card is still invalid and cannot be accepted.

                            If the cardholder refuses to sign the card, and you accept it, you may end up with
                            financial liability for the transaction should the cardholder later dispute the charge."

                            “See ID” or “Ask for ID” is not a valid substitute for a signature. The customer
                            must sign the card in your presence, as stated above."

                            This part is in BOLD on page 29:

                            Although Visa rules do not preclude merchants from asking for cardholder ID, merchants cannot make an ID a condition of acceptance. Therefore, merchants cannot refuse to complete a purchase transaction because a cardholder refuses to
                            provide ID.



                            That's it in a nutshell. From what I understand, VISA is mostly no nonsense to those that don't comply with the agreement and get complaints- warning, then termination of card acceptance.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Our customers use the CC machine themselves. I don't so much as have to look at their card unless they have trouble with the machine, nevermind check ID. The customers do have to sign a little paper, but they're worthless. We send them off to corporate, but I'm told the customer hitting "yes" is all that really matters. Corporate doesn't count them or anything. So, I often take my signing slip and tear it into pieces in front of a new cashier to see how they react. I get charged either way after all.

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