Don't ask me to break the law

[Zyanya]

1. It is illegal to bring me a plan drawn and copyrighted by someone else and ask me to copy it.
2. No, you are not entitled to a discount because the initial work is already done.
3. Yes, it's still illegal even if you want to flip the east/west axis of the house.
4. It's a copyright violation.
5. Saying you just want this house plan in a louder voice will not change that.
6. I don't care that I'm a lot cheaper than that architect and you can't afford him.
7. No, I'm not at all insulted that I can't charge the same rates. He's earned a name and reputation and can charge whatever the heck he likes. He was building houses before I was born.
8. No, actually, he's not a complete stranger who will never know. We are actually on good terms and he has sent work my way before.
9. If it's your dream house, pay him. Since the plans are already completed, he may be willing to offer you a prorated price.
10. No, he is not a stuck-up asshole, didn't I mention I actually know him?
11. I'm sure I can think of a reason or two why he'd be short with you that do not reflect badly on his person.
12. Because not only is it illegal, you are asking me to screw over a person I actually know and like.
13. Get out of my office.
14. No, I am not obligated to recommend someone to you who will break the law.
15. Get out of my office.
16. Calling me a bitch won't change my mind.
17. Get the fuck out of my office, now.
18. See those big brawny guys coming up the drive? They like me more than they like you.
19. For the record, peeling out of a driveway is far more impressive when your car doesn't backfire and stall.
20. Do have a lovely day.

[draftermatt]

Woo! Another designer!

[XCashier]

19. For the record, peeling out of a driveway is far more impressive when your car doesn't backfire and stall.

Wow, what a day! Kudos for standing your ground. Are you going to send a copy of your post to your architect friend? I think he'd get a chuckle out of it.

[Alpha Strike]

1. It is illegal to bring me a plan drawn and copyrighted by someone else and ask me to copy it.
2. No, you are not entitled to a discount because the initial work is already done.
3. Yes, it's still illegal even if you want to flip the east/west axis of the house.
4. It's a copyright violation.

So call me confused or maybe even dense - why or how can house plans/drawings be copyrighted?

Is it the actual drawings that the person has made or the general design of the house that he's come up with that is protected? (Or am I even asking the right question...)

[crazylegs]

I believe that any original work may be copyrighted, be it music, photos or designs, it is there to protect the work that the person has put into the original design.

I.e. although the designs of 'the gherkin' may be out there you can't use them as the design is the intellectual property of the original architect.

[Pedersen]

Put pen to paper. Make squiggles.

Per Berne convention, this is automatically considered copyrighted.

On computer: Open notepad. Mash keyboard. Save file.

Same deal.

If you can express it, capturing that expression in a fixed medium gets that expression copyrighted automatically.

Registering the copyright is useful only for enforcement and higher damages. It is not required.

The only things that can't be copyrighted are lists of facts and government work.

So, it would seem that you should be able to copy the white pages from your phone book, right?

Wrong. They put errors in there deliberately. That makes it an expressive work. It's now copyrighted. And if you copy/distribute they've even got proof of copyright infringement, since you copied their errors.

Same deal for maps.

Copyright law has its good points. Also has its bad points. Won't debate them here/now.

[Zyanya]

Is it the actual drawings that the person has made or the general design of the house that he's come up with that is protected? (Or am I even asking the right question...)

It's the design. Even if they brought me a sketch of a floor plan on a napkin, if I knew he drew it, it's a copyright violation.

Occasionally I get a customer that brings me a drawing they've 'done themselves'. In such a situation, I simply get them to sign that drawing claiming it's their own work. I'm sure in some cases, they've just sketched a floor plan they like, but I can't prove it. So I just CYA.

These jerks actually brought me a print out direct of the guy's website, with his info all over it. So they started out this little charade by first insulting my intelligence and acting like I wouldn't notice they just brought me someone else's work.


I did give him a call afterwards and gave him the client's info. That way, if they do find some schmuck who will do the plans for them, his sister will have something do with that law degree she'll be getting very soon.

[draftermatt]

It's the design. Even if they brought me a sketch of a floor plan on a napkin, if I knew he drew it, it's a copyright violation.

This is true, but as my drafting teacher told me "if you move a wall even a little bit then it's your design!"

Plus, those stinking design books that people get design ideas from normally don't have anything in the way of dimensions anyway, so it's hard to "copy" something that's no more than a sketch. (And if you order those plans you normally get a "stock" set as a customer of mine found out after she stopped using me, ordered plans for a few thousand and found out they were for Georgia building codes and not Maryland)

But I wouldn't rip off someone I knew, especially like that. And especially if it was a complete set of plans

[technical.angel]

I did give him a call afterwards and gave him the client's info. That way, if they do find some schmuck who will do the plans for them, his sister will have something do with that law degree she'll be getting very soon.

I was just about to suggest you do that.

[Alpha Strike]

It's the design. Even if they brought me a sketch of a floor plan on a napkin, if I knew he drew it, it's a copyright violation.


These jerks actually brought me a print out direct of the guy's website, with his info all over it. So they started out this little charade by first insulting my intelligence and acting like I wouldn't notice they just brought me someone else's work.

So I'm assuming you're an architect as well - in the context of this situation I assume folks bring you ideas, you design a house and they pay you for your time and/or designs...

What if they had brought you the plans and said "We really like these designs but we can't afford to buy (?) them from the architect - can you make us something like this?"

[These are probably silly questions but I have zero experience with architects, house designs or copyright law. ]

[Zyanya]

What if they had brought you the plans and said "We really like these designs but we can't afford to buy (?) them from the architect - can you make us something like this?"

If that was their question, my response would be 'no, I'm sorry, if you want those plans, you'll have to talk to that architect'.

But there is a sort of gray area. I've had people in the past bring me three or four floor plans and say something like 'I want a kitchen layout similar to this, but I like this kind of master bed/bath, and I want the porch area to do something like this, and an open to above living room with a staircase like this. I've also had them bring me a picture and say 'not sure how I want the inside to lay out yet, but I want it to look kinda like this from the road'. I'm willing to work with those folks, and I don't consider that copyright violation as, well, let's face it, there are only so many ways you can lay out a kitchen even if I drew it from the top of my head there is a chance it would look like what they'd drawn. I'm sure there are designers out there who would consider it a copyright violation, but honestly, they'd never win the lawsuit.

I keep a library of plans I have drawn because I know people go through the plans for ideas. If they aren't sure what they want, I tell them to flip through until they find something they like or 'almost' like, and we'll start there. I've got a wide enough selection these days that they don't need to bring me someone else's work.

[Zyanya]

This is true, but as my drafting teacher told me "if you move a wall even a little bit then it's your design!"

Your drafting instructor is both correct and dead wrong. I think the guidelines are along the lines of you have to change it at least 10%.

Intent matters here. If you are copying someone's plan but just moving a cabinet to make it 'yours', that's copyright violation. If you like what someone has done with a living room but redo the kitchen, bathroom, and exterior, that's more drawing inspiration.

[Primer]

They put errors in there deliberately. That makes it an expressive work. It's now copyrighted. And if you copy/distribute they've even got proof of copyright infringement, since you copied their errors.

Same deal for maps.

My address is one of those errors. Try to find me on google maps or any other program, and it puts my house about a half mile away from where it really is. Makes it a pain when people need to get here.

[Andara Bledin]

Actually, with Google Maps you can tell it where your house really is and it's supposed to update it, somehow. I have no idea how or if it works, only that Google says you can fix things like that.

^-.-^

[Aethian]

1. It is illegal to bring me a plan drawn and copyrighted by someone else and ask me to copy it.
3. Yes, it's still illegal even if you want to flip the east/west axis of the house.
4. It's a copyright violation.

What about those plans from a book when you like the plans but want to change something in the basement area? Like putting in a room that would be a kennel for my sled team.