Those clowns at Westboro are at it again. What a bunch of clowns.

[An Haddock]

(bonus points if you get the Simpsons reference)


I post on another web site and we were discussing something that recently happened regarding the Westboro Baptist Church. Those are the people whose religious leader resembles the creepy old guy from Poltergeist 2 who go around and picket funerals of dead soldiers or various schools/colleges for teaching evolution or being tolerant of homosexuals. (their web site is godhatesfags.com - to give you an idea of their idiocy)

Anyway, it seems they were picketing some town in Oklahoma within the last couple of days and someone slashed the tires of their vehicles. They went to get the tires fixed and several stores in the town refused to give them service. Additionally, several restaurants in town refused to serve them.

While I gladly support anyone who stands up to oppose these yahoos, the question arose: do they have a discrimination case since these businesses refused them service? Unfortunately the guy who runs the church is a pretty shrewd lawyer and that's one way that they make money - by suing people.

We've been arguing back and forth if the businesses right to refuse service is illegal or not since it's based on their religion as well as their behavior outside of said business.

Just curious if anyone has some legal opinions on the matter.

[Becks]

"Management reserves the right..." and all that good stuff.

[Teskeria]

businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone. period.

[reimero]

I am not a lawyer. That said, I'm pretty sure that in order to lodge a discrimination complaint, they'd have to make a case that they were being discriminated against on the basis of race, sex or religion. If they were to sue, they'd have to prove that they were denied service because they belong to Westboro Baptist rather than because they were acting in an inciteful or inflammatory manner.

There are grounds to bring suit, yes, but they would almost certainly have to move for a change of venue and/or a bench trial (rather than a jury trial) because it is highly unlikely they'd get an impartial judge or jury. I would also venture to say that even though there are grounds to bring suit (meaning it would be hard for a judge to throw it out immediately), their burden of proof is much, much higher than, say, a First Amendment case. They'd have to prove that membership in Westboro Baptist was the determining factor rather than the activity of picketing funerals.

[An Haddock]

I am not a lawyer. That said, I'm pretty sure that in order to lodge a discrimination complaint, they'd have to make a case that they were being discriminated against on the basis of race, sex or religion. If they were to sue, they'd have to prove that they were denied service because they belong to Westboro Baptist rather than because they were acting in an inciteful or inflammatory manner.

There are grounds to bring suit, yes, but they would almost certainly have to move for a change of venue and/or a bench trial (rather than a jury trial) because it is highly unlikely they'd get an impartial judge or jury. I would also venture to say that even though there are grounds to bring suit (meaning it would be hard for a judge to throw it out immediately), their burden of proof is much, much higher than, say, a First Amendment case. They'd have to prove that membership in Westboro Baptist was the determining factor rather than the activity of picketing funerals.

See that's the only thing... obviously I wasn't there so I don't know what exactly transpired when these folks went to get their tires fixed. Let's just assume they were being polite and rational when they went to get the tires fixed. Could the business refuse to serve them solely based on their membership in the church, if the people were not acting rudely or inappropriately while inside the tire store?

[trailerparkmedic]

A lot of businesses "reserve the right to refuse service." IANL but I don't think there is any law forcing businesses to serve every single customer. The only law I can think of that would cover this is the Civil Rights Act, and I believe it only covers race.

I was friendly with someone who owned a Pagan bookstore in a very conservative Christian area. After a few bad experiences with Christians who caused drama (and property damage), she would ask people to leave simply if she got a bad vibe from them. They weren't necessarily doing anything wrong, but she didn't want them as customers.

[reimero]

In order for Westboro Baptist to win, they would have to they were a) a protected class; which b) was the specific target of discrimination. Businesses do have the right to refuse to do business with anyone, provided that refusal is not discrimination against a protected class.

"Protesters" are not a protected class, so the burden of proof is on WBC to prove that the businesses discriminate based on religion: a claim which should be extraordinarily easy to refute. "Witness one, do you shop at $store? And would you call yourself a Christian? Your honor, the defense rests."

[MoonCat]

More power to the store owners.

I read a story last week that said they tried to picket a funeral somewhere but the local people had been alerted that they were coming, so they made sure to take every single parking space that was anywhere near the church so they couldn't park nearby. Also said the locals had a gigantic flag that was so big, it blocked sight of the nasty signs these doucherags carry. Apparently they left shortly after they showed up.

[tropicsgoddess]

"Management reserves the right..." and all that good stuff.

Yep!

In order for Westboro Baptist to win, they would have to they were a) a protected class; which b) was the specific target of discrimination. Businesses do have the right to refuse to do business with anyone, provided that refusal is not discrimination against a protected class.

"Protesters" are not a protected class, so the burden of proof is on WBC to prove that the businesses discriminate based on religion: a claim which should be extraordinarily easy to refute. "Witness one, do you shop at $store? And would you call yourself a Christian? Your honor, the defense rests."

See that's the only thing... obviously I wasn't there so I don't know what exactly transpired when these folks went to get their tires fixed. Let's just assume they were being polite and rational when they went to get the tires fixed. Could the business refuse to serve them solely based on their membership in the church, if the people were not acting rudely or inappropriately while inside the tire store?

In short these WBC nutbars pretty much don't have a leg to stand on. I'm glad the people in the town refused to serve them.

[ditchdj]

This woman from that church, Shirley Phelps, is a wacko!

If you wanna hear Howard Stern and his crew along with George Takei try to have a "sensible conversation" with this woman click below......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H-5z...eature=related

[Pimento]

Man i dont get this.....why do we have to be so extreme?

I personally support diversity to the max, however, i do not support gay pride/straight pride/ any racial or religious acts that force it all out in the open lol. This is not to say i dont support people of different races/creeds/sexual orientation/religious beliefs, i just dont feel the need to shove it in every ones face.

There are times where ill be wearing my slayer hoodie out in public (taking the kids to mcdonalds or something) and (especially on sundays) run into parents who choose to lecture me on it, god, this and the other thing. Im up for a debate, but the amount of YELLING these people do really sets a bad standard for the religious people who also tolerate the beliefs and rights of other people.

[Sheldonrs]

God phelps those who phelp themselves.

[Peppergirl]

Hi Everyone!

We are going to allow this one to stand for awhile> Please keep it civil and on topic.

Thanks to those who have reported it. We do appreciate it and will keep an eye out.

If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to PM myself or any mod.

Thanks!

[Mytical]

I don't think they have a leg to stand on. While it might be a bit crass of the business, all they would have to do is ask for a few people who are christian to testify..and as somebody else said ... that would be that.

Honestly though, they are about as Christian as the tires on my car. More about MONEY then religion.

[reimero]

Actually, from what I know about Fred Phelps, it's not about money. He believes he's doing God's will, and money his church makes from litigation furthers that cause. I really don't want to get into fratching territory here, but in this case, what's relevant is that his motivation is the cause, not the cash.

What also plays into this is the fact that he believes in predestination (i.e. he believes he was born predestined to go to heaven) so he doesn't care how he's perceived and he doesn't care how he treats others or affects others. He'll litigate mercilessly, but his goal isn't money, it's furthering his agenda.

(NB: please dont' use this post as a launching pad to bash on belief systems. I'm simply trying to explain his perspective and why WBC is so unapologetically the way it is. I also want to clarify that I'm not being a WBC apologist, I find their stance and their tactics reprehensible. But I'm a stickler for facts.)