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  • The great metrics debate - Are companies going too far?

    I read a story the other day about a large chain of dentists offices that was scamming medicaid by having their dentists perform unnecessary work that could then be billed either in addition to or at a higher rate than the work that actually needed be to done.

    The article included a quote from one of the dentists that worked for the company in question. This person said the company had quotas that had to be met no matter what and so employees resorted to all kinds of unethical and improper means to make sure they were. I'm guessing these were dollar figure quotas.

    A couple of weeks ago I watched a documentary about for profit colleges. In it, a former recruiter for one of them said the recruiters are essentially a sales force and encouraged to sign up as many students as they can regardless of their economic potential or financial situation. This person said there were times she pretty much bullied students into signing up when she knew it probably wasn't the right path for them.

    Several months ago, I was reading about how fast food restaurants were gaming the system to make it look like they were reaching drive thru service metrics when they really weren't. Basically they would take the customers order and payment, then tell them to pull into a parking space to wait for their food. This way when the vehicle left the food service window, the timer would stop and, as far as the metrics go, this transaction would be considered a "completed" sale.

    Of course we've all heard the Best Buy horror stories about employees pushing extended warranties, PC "optimization" and insanely expensive cables and accessories.

    And then there are games stores like the one where I work. There are metrics there too. Presells and loyalty cards are our big ones, with extended warranties not far behind.

    I've seen and heard about employees going to all kinds of lengths to make these quotas, such as:

    - Lying about the amount of trade credit a customer had, then after he or she left the store, using the remaining amount to put a presell in the system.

    - Giving an inappropriate discount on another item to reduce the cost of a loyalty card (technically this is a fireable offense, but admittedly I've never seen anyone get canned for it).

    - Tell customers they HAD to do at least one presell to get full trade credit for their games.

    - Encouraging friends to come in and put money down for presells, then come back later and cancel them for a refund when someone else is working.

    - Lying and/or misrepresenting the benefits of the loyalty card.

    - Redoing an entire transaction to tack on a loyalty card after the customer left the store (original transaction was voided, new transaction was done adding the card and the employee paid the difference into the till). I think the guy who did that might have been fired but I don't know for sure.

    - Employees using their own money to put presells/loyalty cards into the system to boost their numbers

    And we all know WHY this happens. The companies put an insane amount of pressure on their employees/stores to make these goals. In many cases, jobs are on the line if goals are not met, no matter how unrealistic those goals may be. In my experience, they just keep going up and up no matter what. No matter how good you do, it's never enough.

    Oh and did I mention in most cases like I mentioned above, employees are NOT offered any kind of incentive (aside from being able to keep their job) for hitting their goals?

    Thus an environment is created where employees are prone to using the kind of tactics described above to "make the numbers" and keep themselves employed as a result.

    Now I understand the idea of of having measurable items by which you can track your business. Obviously you want good, detailed information on what's selling and when it's selling and who is buying it, etc. You can't run a good business without that.

    But it seems to me that when certain metrics become the be all and the end all of the business and are pushed ridiculously hard no matter what, damage is done.

    You don't earn customer goodwill by harassing and badgering them about extended warranties and loyalty cards. You don't build employee morale by holding a virtual gun to their head when it comes to offering and selling those things either.

    You might make more money in the short run, but there's a big question over how effective this business model is.

    There's no shortage of complaints about "Games store". The only thing that keeps them going is they're the only primary bricks and mortar outlet for their business. Still though, profits are down recently and Amazon has made huge inroads into the gaming market. I myself barely shop there anymore and I worked there for over three years. That ought to tell you something.

    I shop on Amazon. That way I can get exactly what I want without any badgering about presells, loyalty cards, warranties or anything else.

    Best Buy is currently struggling big time and may not even be around in a few years time. This is largely a result of their high pressure approach to sales, not to mention their lack of competitiveness on price.

    On the other hand it seems like EVERY store has loyalty cards and credit cards and warranties they are trying to shove down your throat. It occurs to me that there must be something to this approach if so many businesses are willing to embrace and implement it.

    Personally, I think it comes down to money. The businesses are only concerned with the maximum amount of money they can get out of every single customer who walks in the door, regardless of the means.

    They claim to abhor unethical behavior by their employees, but then frequently look the other way when it actually happens.

    I'm all for making a profit, even a healthy profit.

    But there has to be a line. Things are being taken too far in the pursuit of money.

    This leads me to two questions:

    1) What can we do about this?
    2) How far will it go?

    I fear the two most likely answers are: Nothing and a lot farther than we'd like to think.
    Last edited by CrazedClerkthe2nd; 10-04-2012, 10:17 PM.
    "If we refund your money, give you a free replacement and shoot the manager, then will you be happy?" - sign seen in a restaurant

  • #2
    Whilst i have no answer for question 1 i do sadly have one for Nr 2, It will go too far...

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    • #3
      Numbers are what you fall back on when you can't think critically, and pushing employees relentlessly to make their numbers is what happens when you can't teach the behaviors that lead to making their numbers.

      This is what happens at the swamp with regard to our extended protection plans. The managers will talk sales numbers, conversion rates and percentages until they're blue in the face, but don't teach how to actually sell EPPs.
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      • #4
        The wholesale club kept trying to push the cashiers to selling extended warranties on things-- mostly big-ticket items (electronics & jewelry)-- and we were told we HAD to ask EVERY customer if they wanted one.

        I rarely did. There were times when I would; if a customer was buying the display model of something, I'd ask if they wanted the extended warranty. Sometimes they'd take it.

        But apart from that, I ignored the repeated pushings to get more sales of them. I was one of their longest-employed cashiers and I was cross-trained as FDLP. They weren't going to fire me over not meeting some metric they barely cared about.
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        • #5
          I really dislike those kinds of situations. At the red bullseye, cashiers had a quota of how many RedCards (Target credit card) we had to have people sign up for in a month.

          Never mind if you're very quick and accurate in your ringing.
          Never mind if you bag well and properly, keeping in mind creating walls and listening if the customer wants them bagged a certain way.
          Never mind if you being hired was the reason that the store's speed quota (yes, you're timed for your transactions) was reached and exceeded because YOU are the one who can keep at 99% positive speed at every shift.

          Nope. You didn't get enough redcards. You're written up.
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          • #6
            I actively avoid stores that require loyalty cards to get sales prices. If a cashier stops a transaction to fill out application information for a customer ahead of me, I'll walk out of the store if I don't really, really need what I was there for.

            Yeah, they've gone too far. And the sad part is they're too busy looking at spreadsheets to realize what's happening on the ground, both with employees and with customers.

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            • #7
              I always hated having to badger customers about getting the loyalty cards that the big exclamation point store. We had a daily quota of 15 cards and only a four hour shift to get it done. We had so many regulars it got to where there was no way to make that quota which got us wrote up.
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              • #8
                Some of your examples surprised me and outright shocked me, until I thought about my own retail experiences. Media Play sold a rewards card and we also pushed reservations, accessories and let us not forget Magazines EW/SI/Time. A manager was fired for signing people up for the magazines without their knowledge. She'd use the information on the rewards card sales (which included name and address) and forge their signature. For those of you unfamiliar, the magazines hawk themselves as "8 ISSUES FREE - AWESOMENESS!!" and then put in 1 font-size print that they keep on coming unless you cancel. And oh, they'll charge it to the credit card you just used to pay Media Play for your DVD. By they way, the fired manager didn't get a bonus or anything when she had great numbers, she just liked being told she was #1 in the store. Interestingly enough, I was #3 in the store (so I guess technically #2 if her sales were bogus?) and I only worked 6 hours a week. I rocked at it, but it sure eats at your conscience.

                Media Play's entire business plan was centered around pushing add-on sales and promoting their rewards card. Yet most things sold for much higher than you'd pay elsewhere, but claimed we made up for it with our awesome "service". It isn't very service-like to follow around your customers and bombard them with a sales pitch. Small wonder they went out of business.
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                • #9
                  My company pushes customer surveys. This seems to be the ONLY metric they pay attention to.

                  BUT

                  The problem is is we could get all 100% or all 5's or whatever criteria on EVERY survey and it would not make ONE IOTA of difference to the employees. This is because ALL of our wages were frozen for the foreseeable future. ALL we get is little "Good Job" cards that essentially mean nothing but a nice pat on the head like you would do to a dog. We still get semi-annual reviews but they do not result in more $$$ for us

                  I could be the top employee, get all the top scores on surveys, turn my face brown for all the ass kissing, stroke the DMs like a pro, literally be Superman, but still NOT get a raise
                  I'm lost without a paddle and headed up SH*T creek.
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                  • #10
                    Quoth Irving Patrick Freleigh View Post
                    Numbers are what you fall back on when you can't think critically, and pushing employees relentlessly to make their numbers is what happens when you can't teach the behaviors that lead to making their numbers.

                    This is what happens at the swamp with regard to our extended protection plans. The managers will talk sales numbers, conversion rates and percentages until they're blue in the face, but don't teach how to actually sell EPPs.
                    Good point. The only sales training I ever got when I worked retail was by way of laughably cheesy corporate videos or a relatively useless "role play" scenario with my manager.

                    It's tough to hire someone at $8/hr who is a really good salesperson. Good salespeople go to jobs where they, you know, get commissions and rewards for their hard work, not just the threat of job loss if they don't make the numbers.

                    And here's another thing: Basic sales approach dictates that some customers aren't going to want certain things or be receptive to certain offers. The idea being to get an idea of customer needs and then, if you feel the needs line up with something you're selling, you start in with the pitch.

                    Hence stores requiring every customer be asked if they want a loyalty card/extended warranty/whatever regardless of circumstances are rather silly.
                    "If we refund your money, give you a free replacement and shoot the manager, then will you be happy?" - sign seen in a restaurant

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Going too far? Oh, yes. At Monkey Wards, the only metric repair clerks had was service contract sales and even then that wasn't enforced, because of the commission. Supposedly, service contracts were money in pocket for the company, but the reality was more that service contracts cost the company more. Not only in fraudulent commissions (one woman I worked with got major busted and prosecuted for falsifying service contract sales,) but in expensive repairs and replacements! I mean, service contracts were sold on EVERYTHING, well, except clothing.. I think.

                      Yeah, I firmly believe that MW went bankrupt because of service contracts.

                      I also don't like pushy sales tactics. The best way to combat it, is to let corporate know you don't appreciate it and *gasp* actually never shop at the place again. (Instead of just threatening to and showing up again the next day.)
                      If I make no sense, I apologize. I'm constantly interrupted by an actual toddler.

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                      • #12
                        Much of the badgering about getting a discount card is much like the pressure to get a credit card in the 1960s and 1970s. Except... the banks didn't have their tellers ask, "Would you be interested in getting a Bankamericard today?" Most of the pressure was to send applications by mail.

                        Perhaps today's businesses could try that instead and see how far it goes.
                        Why do they make Superglue but not Batglue?

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                        • #13
                          I have mixed feelings on this. One one hand, I think metrics are vital. People can get lazy without a goal to reach. I'm sure you all know lazy coworkers, heh! And the metrics give bosses concrete standards to judge employees by.

                          On the other hand, if the metrics are TOO ambitious and the punishments are draconian, like firing, people will become unethical. That's a given. The company needs to learn to set the metrics fairly and be understanding that sometimes, outside forces will prevent them from being met. But how many companies actually do that?

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                          • #14
                            Quoth raudf View Post
                            I also don't like pushy sales tactics. The best way to combat it, is to let corporate know you don't appreciate it and *gasp* actually never shop at the place again. (Instead of just threatening to and showing up again the next day.)
                            I have contacted corporate offices a couple of times, but I didn't quit shopping at the stores. I just told them I was a loyal customer, they could check the numbers, and I didn't appreciate being asked repeatedly about a card/contract/plan.

                            I'm a big girl. If a salesperson offers a card/contract/plan, I can say no with no issues. But if they keep pushing me, or they start running down a list of everything that they can sell me, then I get pissed. I may not stop shopping at a particular chain, but I'll switch to a location that's less pushy.
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                            • #15
                              Lately, when I'm calling the bank of an association which I'm the treasurer of, the employee starts trying to convince me in accepting a visit from their insurance broker for a "free consultation".

                              Now, when I'm dealing with *my own* bank (with whom we have insurances, and that's the reason why we have good discounts on the insurances + good interest rates on our mortgage) I'm cool with that. But with <association> bank, I just want our bank business dealt with and nothing else, period!

                              So methinks next time I'm asked whether I want to participate in a customer review after a call, I'll gladly accept
                              Last edited by NorthernZel; 10-05-2012, 09:50 PM.
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