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  • Fired, and I still don't know why. . .

    "Your supervisors feel that you have failed to complete your probationary period. We cannot discuss the reasons other than that."

    . . .that's what my bosses, bosses boss told me at about 2 PM today.

    I was hired almost a year ago by a State government agency to be an Officer of the law. The rules require a one year probationary period, and after that it basically takes an Act of God to fire an employee.

    I just got my annual performance review for last year last month, and it was a good report, no complaints, acceptable everything. Nobody had said anything even slightly negative about my job performance since last August (when I got yelled at for taking time off for military duties, see an earlier thread here I posted).

    My probationary period would have ended this Sunday. If I'd walked out the door on Friday afternoon, I would have been golden. Since on Friday afternoon I was scheduled to testify in court, and would be going home straight after that, basically I would have been good as soon as I left for lunch on Friday.

    Instead, I get a call at about 2 PM on my office phone. It's my bosses boss (the supervisor over the office)'s number. The person on the other end though is someone I don't recognize. She asks me to come upstairs.

    I walk in, a woman I don't recognize is sitting behind the office supervisor's desk, my immediate supervisor is sitting there and another supervisor is by the door.

    The woman says that I was called in because my probationary period is almost over. . .and then she says what was said above, and asks for my badge and my gun.

    . . .I'm stunned.

    I just had my annual performance review a few weeks ago, and got a glowing review. I was apparently the only Officer that had a good working relationship with one of the Judges our office has to deal with. I hadn't received any complaints about the quality of my work, not even an informal verbal statement of anything being wrong.

    Judging by the paperwork, the person who fired me was the Assistant Director (over the agency for about 1/3 of the state, who reports directly to the Director), the person who was above the head of the office. This was a person I had never met before, and only knew from seeing her name on some personnel paperwork.

    I'm sitting here wondering if there's anything I could have done differently. At least I can get unemployment, and get about 2/3 of my pay for 6 months, and I can start applying around for something else.

    I'm sitting here and talking, texting and messaging with former co-workers, who said they've NEVER seen an employee terminated right before the end of their probation like that. If anything, they are terminated early on when it's clear it's not working out, but they are so overworked they hate to lose anyone. Had a 20 year employee tell me by e-mail she'd never seen them wait until a few days before the end to terminate someone, and the times they do you could see it coming, and they'd never, ever seen an Assistant Director to come in and fire someone.

    Still, just stunned and wondering WTF.

  • #2
    Quoth Jay 2K Winger View Post
    Could this somehow be related to the incident with the boss who didn't get what military commitments were?
    That's what I'm wondering about.

    I was due up for my next military obligations in April, and my unit wanted me to come in one day next month to give a briefing to a unit that was deploying overseas.

    No idea if that's why, but it's the ONLY thing that my employers had seemed even the slightest bit upset about since I was a new Officer last spring.

    Comment


    • #3
      Quoth gremcint View Post
      here's a very important question, when did your benefit kick in and what kind of raise would you have gotten after that first year?
      Benefits kicked in the day I was hired, and it would have been a 5% raise effective March 1st. That would have been roughly $50 every two weeks.

      Comment


      • #4
        Quoth EricKei View Post
        Unless a contract or other special conditions required it, no, they don't have to under At-Will Employment law (if in the US) -- in fact, it's safer for them if they do not. I agree that this smells really fishy, and that the military thing may have been a factor. Perhaps someone there had it in for you, whether over the military thing or not.

        I'm just glad you're getting SOME form of pay out of it, at least for a little while. If you know any higher-ups there who are on your side, perhaps ask them for a recommendation...?
        Yeah, I should get unemployment, which will come out to about 2/3 of my pay, for 6 months.

        They also have to pay out my entire vacation time and comp time balances, which comes to 4 and a half weeks of pay there. So I'll still be getting a paycheck basically until the end of next month even though I was fired yesterday.

        I don't know if someone had it in for me, I couldn't sleep at all last night thinking about it.

        It isn't just an "at will" state, which we are, the way that state law is written, for a state employee in their probationary status it's every bit as "we can fire you for any reason at any time, or no reason at all".

        The only legal recourse is to allege discrimination from a Federally protected class, such as military service. . .and that's hard to prove since it had been half a year since they'd griped at me over it, and waited until the very end of the probationary period to drop that one.

        Comment


        • #5
          Quoth rose_metal_nz View Post
          I recall in your previous thread you saying "they were too short-handed to get rid of you" at that stage - maybe that's got something to do with it?
          I'm wondering about that now.

          You see, when I was hired, I was the 7th Officer performing that specific duty.

          When I left for my military Annual Training and was gone for 2 weeks, in that time, one of the 6 other Officers quit, so there were only 6 (me included) when I got back.

          Because of the long hiring & training process, the replacement for the person who quit at the beginning of last August, just got back from the Academy last Friday and her first day actually on the job as a fully trained Officer was Monday.

          That put us back at 7 Officers, briefly.

          I was fired on Tuesday, putting them back at 6. I am wondering if it was budget cuts, that they only want 6 and had to let one go to keep the total number, and it was me and the newer Officer and they chose me for some reason (if it was budget, I was only a few days shy of getting the raise that comes with being off probationary status, so the other Officer would be a little cheaper to have around for the next year).

          Comment


          • #6
            A slight update in this saga.

            Some of my former co-workers wanted to take me out to lunch today. At our office, it is a tradition that when an employee leaves, that the managers organize a lunch at their favorite local restaraunt, or they have some snacks and a send-off in the break room at some point (the employee's choice of which).

            Since I was fired, I wasn't getting any of that. My co-workers wanted to do it for me, so I met with a half-dozen of them at a local pizza place today for lunch.

            Some news of the last few days I got from my former co-workers.

            1. Many employees are very upset at this, and have lost a lot of respect for the management. While firing an employee for no given reason while on probationary status is legal, they virtually never do it. I was a well-liked, popular employee (as both my performance evaluations said, and the people who turned out for lunch with me said), and nobody could see why I was discharged.

            This has meant that morale among everyone else there who is probationary has dropped like a stone. They have had it made clear that even if you work hard, work long hours, and get along with everyone, you can still be canned arbitrarily right up until that magic date.

            Those who are off probation are just irate with management for doing that.

            2. The office had it's monthly staff meeting yesterday. I guess they hadn't edited the agenda since the decision to terminate me was made, because there was a bullet point on the agenda to congratulate me for my hard work during the snowstorm last week to stay late during the storm to make sure assignments got done even in the middle of the storm. The managers didn't actually call it out, but it was on the agenda that was distributed. The employees noticed that the agenda had a line-item for congratulating the hard work and dedication of an employee they had fired out-of-nowhere two days prior.

            In other news, I also went to the career center at my alma mater today for career/job search counseling. Aside from some tweaks to my resume to make it what's more in-style now, not a lot to do, and they said my resume is pretty strong so I shouldn't have too much trouble getting a new job.

            Comment


            • #7
              Quoth Greenhall View Post
              I just dredged through your first thread, and what stuck out to me was the part where...let me see if I acn copy paste this in...
              1. The state government actually has VERY military friendly personnel policies (four weeks paid military leave per year, preferential treatment in hiring which is probably part of how I got the job), he's just pushing right up to the line of them. Also, it's buried way, way down in the Employee Handbook that if you've taken any military leave within the last 6 months (paid or unpaid) then they have to show cause to the personnel board and have a hearing, even if you're still probationary (you just have fewer rights of appeal and a lower standard for what constitutes cause). I don't think he realizes that's in the Employee Handbook, that for him to even try to fire me now it will have to be reviewed by the personnel board, and they may take a dim view of him firing a soldier for anything tied to their service.


              I can't tell from both threads if you have definitely taken time since last August, which is right at six months ago. I just wanted to be sure you remembered this. (I have the memory of a goldfish some days...)
              Thanks for the reminder. I found the following quote on Page 49 of the Employee Handbook:

              "Upon returning from military duty you (whether merit or non-merit) may not be terminated except for cause for a period of one (1) year after restoration to a position following military duty. "

              So, it was one year, not six months, and I'd also taken one day of military leave in October and December because our unit had a three-day drill those months.

              It sure as heck sounds like, since I took military leave within the last year (paid military leave for annual training) that they cannot terminate me unless they show cause, so I can take it to the State Personnel Board for appeal.

              Comment


              • #8
                Quoth EricKei View Post
                And SS, you know what to do now, of course: Lawyer up. Either the Labor Board itself, or (probably more useful) via a military equivalent. Document everything you can think of on paper - times, dates, names, places - no matter how insignificant it may seem at first - and give it to them along with your written concerns. Probably best not to contact the former employer in any way unless they tell you otherwise, and continue to remain as anonymous as possible online. Loose lips and all...
                I now have an appointment to speak with the Staff Judge Advocate (i.e. the Legal Officer) at my National Guard unit on Thursday to discuss this discovery.

                I was already going to be seeing him to discuss the matter, but now that's going to be a much more interesting discussion.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Quoth wolfie View Post
                  My understanding is that people in the National Guard are called in for routine training one weekend a month and two weeks a year, so are off their civilian job for military duty more than once per year. Since they are never more than one year from being restored to a position following military duty, does this mean that people in the National Guard can NEVER be terminated from their civilian job?
                  Well, that rule is employees of the State Government, not any employee anywhere in the state. Also, they could still be fired "for cause", but for State Employees that requires proving it to the Personnel Board, who are famously shy about substantiating a "for cause" dismissal. It basically takes breaking the law, gross incompetence, or job abandonment to get that allegation substantiated.

                  It's well known that in this state, to fire a state employee, other than an arbitrary not-for-cause dismissal during their probationary period, takes an "Act of God" as its called, because the hearings and appeals process can take up to 2 years.

                  I'd often heard that the State Government was a very military friendly employer before I was hired, I got my job largely because of the heavy weight given to veterans in the hiring process. Once you're out of Basic Training and AIT, you get a DD-214 discharge certificate for that active duty time, so you can use that to claim veteran status on employment, since you were on Federal Active Duty for several months of training, so every Guardsman basically counts as a veteran for most hiring purposes.

                  It was their reputation as a very military-friendly employer, combined with my supervisor's very hostile attitude towards my military service that really stunned me about all this.

                  As a side note touching on the Veteran employment thing, I just got back from taking the Postal Service examination this morning, aced it, and with veterans points I got what is apparently a very high score. I found that the USPS requires 6 consecutive months of active duty that was not for training purposes for Veteran status, but I've got that through a 1 year homeland security-related active duty assignment I did several years ago.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A slight update to this saga, a mildly comical one.

                    A couple of weeks before I was fired the office put in an order for shirts/jackets embroidered with our names. I ordered a polo-style shirt for work.

                    It came in earlier this week, I got an e-mail asking me to pay for it. Now, I can't actually take possession of the shirt, since it's got the badge of my former agency embroidered on it. They can't sell it to anyone else since it has Officer Silverstaff embroidered right under that badge. But, they want their $30 for the shirt since I ordered it before I was terminated.

                    I'm debating whether or not to just pay the $30 to not burn any more bridges there, or to tell them I'm unemployed now, can't afford the $30, and to go pound sand, or to just ignore the request for money until I see if I have any success with the Personnel Board.

                    I'm still headed for my meeting with the JAG Officer this afternoon. I'll see if I can share anything after that.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Quoth Gizmo View Post
                      They emailed you to pay for a shirt to work for them that you won't now be using as they sacked you.......?

                      Silence is the better option since my other one would not place you in a good place for ongoing claims.

                      Another thing: If they *knew* that you were failing probation and intended to fire you.... why did they order the shirt? Sounds like there wasn't an issue and then the manager that hates you taking leave threw around his weight to get you fired. Or the person doing the ordering wasn't told but even then they can say "wait on X, Y and Z for these shirts - they are still in the probation period and whilst we don't expect problems..."
                      Here's how the shirt order went. One of the supervisors goes to one of the Officers and says to take up an order for shirts & jackets. That Officer puts out an e-mail to the whole office with the catalog and price list, asking if people want to order anything, and if so to give her their orders before Friday when she would be placing the orders. I placed my order for the shirt. She submitted the order on a Friday, and I was terminated the next Tuesday. The shirts came in a couple of weeks later.

                      One thing I found out about between talking with the manager who was walking me out of the building, and a manager I met with when I came back to get my mini-fridge out of the office was the two supervisors that weren't my immediate bosses and they both told me they didn't know why I was terminated, they weren't in on the decision, and they only found out about it a few hours beforehand.

                      There were 3 supervisors, and the district supervisor who was over the whole office. From what I can tell, the decision to terminate me was between my immediate supervisor and the district supervisor (or from higher above), and the other 2 supervisors didn't even know I was to be fired until that morning (in retrospect, I think I know exactly when. I tried to go to my manager to ask a question at around 10 that morning, but she was in a closed-door meeting with the other supervisors at that time, that was probably when the word was being put out). I would certainly think that the Officer who was handling the shirt order would have no way of knowing 4+ days in advance I was to be fired when even other supervisors weren't told until about 4 hours beforehand.

                      I'm due to meet with the Judge Advocate in about 3 hours, so I'll ask him what to do with the shirt. I've been stalling with the e-mails so far about the shirt, responding to them but dragging out the process of how much do they want for it, how do they want me to pay, ect.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I forgot to ask about the shirt. I'll ask the next time I speak with the JA.

                        The JA (who is acting as my legal counsel in this regard) would appreciate if I didn't talk about the details of any actions we may or may not be taking through any administrative or judicial channels, even if anonymously online, so I shouldn't give details until the dust settles.

                        . . .when that happens though and the matter is finally closed, I will give a COMPREHENSIVE accounting of things for everyone.

                        However, I do have one amusing realization I had about an hour ago that I can share.

                        My security clearance is up for renewal. I have to have a pretty high-level clearance for what I do in the military. I'm putting in the application for the renewal now. I realize that when I list my employment, putting down that I was fired from a job is a big red flag, especially when I can't put down why other than being as vague as I listed here.

                        I realize that means there will almost certainly be a Federal Agent or two coming by my former employer in the next month or two asking a lot of very pointed questions about my work and the quality of my work and about my performance evaluations and such. They don't say why they are asking these questions, and I realize they may come to some possibly erroneous (but highly amusing, to me at least) conclusions about why Feds are snooping around really wanting to know exactly why I was fired.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Quoth Aragarthiel View Post
                          Couldn't the Feds looking into it possibly make them think you're looking into a lawsuit?
                          Quoth eltf177 View Post
                          What would really be great is if the Feds start asking your employer why they fired you, and they can't come up with a legitimate reason...
                          Yeah, that's the idea.

                          I didn't realize it until last night, but having the Feds show up asking all these questions about me and why I was fired could make them think that there was some kind of pending Federal action regarding my termination.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            A slight update.

                            Nothing I can say about the possible legal action, but. . .

                            I paid for the shirt. When I stopped by to hand off the check, they handed me the shirt. I told them I didn't think I could have it, my former co-worker said they didn't care and I'd paid for it. So, I have a shirt I can't wear in public or it would be Impersonating an Officer, but I guess it's something of a memento of my time there.

                            I had a former co-worker text me the other day asking how I was doing. We chatted briefly. Apparently morale there is still low, and the other probationary employees are chatting among themselves wondering if they'll get fired out of nowhere. Overall respect for management has taken a nose-dive, and they are getting ready for their annual employee appreciation week (a week where they have some catered lunches, an office picnic, and a few other little nice events to talk about how the office is one big family and they appreciate their Officers), and there are apparently a lot of snarky comments being made about how it's total BS because if they appreciated the Officers, they wouldn't be firing them out of nowhere.

                            I'm getting my unemployment benefits, they didn't try to tell the Unemployment Office there was any misconduct, so I have the letter from the Unemployment office saying my termination was not due to any misconduct or fault of my own, for what that's worth. Okay, it's worth about $600 every two weeks :-)

                            On the plus side, I have an interview with another agency of the State Government next Wednesday for a position with them, and the Postal Service wants to do a pre-employment background check on me so I'm doing well with the hiring process there. Also had a friend-of-a-friend introduce me to the Special Agent In Charge at the local office of a Federal agency I've long wanted to go to, and I'm a good candidate for becoming an Agent with them, but it's a very long hiring process so they even said to get another job in the meantime, but my longer-term career goals are still tracking.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              An update on this whole matter. . .

                              First, I'm searching for an attorney.

                              The JAG officer can't represent me. I didn't know this, he didn't say it or make it clear at our meeting. He apparently thought it was so obvious that he didn't need to say it. He can only advise me and consult with me, but he can't represent me on any civil case, not even one tied to my military service. He's only able to represent the military as a whole or the unit we are in.

                              So, I've been looking for a private attorney, and preparing to take this to the State Employment Board pro se.

                              My search for an attorney has truly sucked. So far I have dealt with:

                              2 law offices that say they ONLY represent employers in Employment Law affairs and never employees. The moment they heard I was an employee taking a case to appeal before the employment board they couldn't get me off the phone fast enough.

                              3 law offices that say they never handle any kind of administrative hearing (which this is) and only handle cases in court. They told me they'd be happy to represent me if/when this rises to being a USERRA complaint, but they said they refused to represent anyone before an administrative board.

                              1 law office that told me very quickly that they don't do employment law and refuse to touch my case. Despite their entry in the Yellow Pages and their web site listing "Employment Law" under their types of practice, when you call them they say they don't do that.

                              1 law office that would represent me, but I realized it would be a bad idea to do so. This place was was kinda shady. It's the only law office I've called where an attorney picked up the phone instead of a paralegal or secretary. The attorney listened patiently as I explained the situation, then told me I had a slam-dunk case where I was sure to get my job back, and he'd be happy to take my case, but he needed a $2000 retainer ASAP, as in within the next 24 hours, or he couldn't take the case. He explained that this would be extremely labor intensive and take up much of his time all summer working on this case, so as soon as that $2000 was used up, he'd need another $2000 and so on. I asked him if he'd work on contingency, and he refused. He said that the money I'd be awarded in back wages would not be enough to make up for his legal fees. I noted that if I was restored at the next hearing, like he says I should be, I would be due around $10,000 in back wages, so is he telling me that he's charging me over $10k to represent me in this case? He then began to talk about how getting back wages wasn't guaranteed, so he couldn't work on contingency since he couldn't guarantee getting paid, and when I seemed unconvinced he started talking about how his $200/hour rate is set by his law firm but he could get it cut to $150/hour as a special deal just as soon as he gets that approved by his superiors at the firm. Overall, a very shady lawyer who seemed like he was desperate to get as much cash from me as quickly as possible. I politely hung up on him.

                              1 law office that wouldn't even talk to me without me paying them a few hundred dollars. Every other firm would do a free consultation on the phone to see if it was worth their time, and mine. One of the firms that said they don't represent employees had the paralegal who was telling me this give me the name and number of an attorney that she said might be able to help me. I call their office and introduce myself and the moment I start to talk about my case, the receptionist tells me to shut up and says the don't do phone consultations and before I can even tell them what my case is about I have to pay a $200 consultation fee and come to their office and tell the attorney in person. That left me with a bad taste in my mouth compared to the other firms. Even the scummy cash grabber was willing to at least discuss the case without me risking money up front. Given how many firms said they wouldn't represent me for various reasons, it felt like too big of a gamble to hand over $200 just to be told they won't take my case.

                              . . .so I've called the Veterans Services department of Legal Aid. Had a few conversations with them. I'm over the income/assets limit of being helped by Legal Aid. . .but the attorney that contacted me said my case was unique enough that she was going to put it out for the Bar Association's Pro Bono program to see if an attorney is willing to take it Pro Bono since a case like this is rather unique and some attorneys might want to take it just for personal reasons. She said she'd get back to me some time this week to see if an attorney would be interested in taking it Pro Bono.

                              The attorney from Legal Aid I talked to said she'd be interested in taking it Pro Bono, except she focuses on family law, she told me that the Veterans Legal Aid program she is a part of usually focuses on criminal defense, defending against evictions, and family law issues (custody, divorce, ect.) and she and the other attorneys there have zero familiarity or experience with administrative hearings at the employment board.

                              So, I'm about this close to having to represent myself pro se at the hearing.
                              I had the preliminary hearing last month, which went well, and I definitely got the attention of the employment board when I listed my complaint and they wanted me to go on the record with my allegations. That definitely got their attention and seemed to make it clear that they would consider this an extremely serious matter if I could substantiate my claims.

                              I've got a hearing late next month that is the next phase in this process, that if I don't have an attorney at, I'll be representing myself.

                              So, that's where this story currently sits.

                              Comment

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