Sexual Harassment

[Seshat]

I think everyone here has a valid point. I agree that:

1. Men have intellects. A woman's body, no matter how nice, does not automatically switch the intellect off. It's insulting to the whole gender to assert that a man 'can't help it'.

2. Some women misbehave in the exact same way that some men do.

3. A significant portion of those who misbehave just don't know that their behaviour is inappropriate and unwelcome, and can be retrained through any of a number of techniques. (zzap's jokes being one of them. I have a range to try, depending on the level of misbehaviour.)

4. Another signficant portion know they're making people uncomfortable, and don't care, or think they're entitled to their behaviour, or enjoy making people uncomfortable, or even think 'bitches says they don't likes it but they really do'.

People in group 4 need to be thrown out and kept out. (Actually, they need psychiatric help, or psychological help, or a cluebat, or a salmoning. But since noone is required to be an unpaid psych to anyone and management tends to frown on salmonings, throwing the bastards out will have to do.)

If I happen to have the right combination of time, patience, and not-overstressed-ness, and judge a guy to be in group 3 rather than 4 (or give him the benefit of the doubt), I'll use whichever re-training tool I have the energy to use and think might work.

But I'm not on this planet to be eye candy. And I'm not on this planet to be the Mommy to oversexed undersocialised men either. Teaching them is me doing them (and society) a favour, it's not my job, and I'm not going to do it to every undersocialised person who crosses my path. If I don't have the time, energy and patience, I'll just use whatever coping technique I happen to have the time, energy and patience to use. Up to and including screaming 'Get out of my sight you leering bastard'.

And for the record, the pretty ones can be worse than the ugly ones. I think they assume their looks will let them get away with it.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Probably because of the reason most people won't come right out and say it, because they are so embarrased they don't know what to do until half an hour after it happens.

Embarassed or still going "Oh, he is NOT doing what it looks like he's doing. Am I really seeing this right?"

It happens. Sometimes the shock of seeing someone act like this makes your brain go into a state of denial about what it's seeing.

And anyway, guys like this, they know they are making the woman uncomfortable. This was not the first time he's done this. This was likely not the first time he'd been called down for it. I don't buy that telling him about it would help. Clearly, he doesn't respect women. Hes not going to respect her request any more than he respects her space.

BTW, I think Zzapp's posts are some of the most intelligent on this thread. :-)

[Khana]

Sometimes it's fun to be harrassed

Sometimes it's fun to be sexually harrassed, in certain circumstances. I work at a call center, so I'm 100% completely safe. I don't give my info, my company's legally not allowed to give my info, I'm safe.

So, I play a little.

Sleeze: "Oooh, you're a girl. Do you have big breasts?"
Me: "I'm not really supposed to give out any potentially identifying information about myself. So, go ahead and imagine me drop dead gorgeous. Now, with that mental picture in your head... how can I help you today?"

Sometimes it bothers me a bit when they throw little things in like calling me sweetie, sexy, cutie, baby, baby-doll, sweetheart, and love... yes, I've had them call me love. Eh. Not much I can do about that.

That's actually a fair point... if someone's Completely inappropriate, you can feel alright doing something about it. Someone grabs you, you slap them. Someone cusses you out, you respond in kind. Someone makes supremely inappropriate comments, like the whole razor bit where this threat started, that you could actually really confront the customer with.

It's the little things that's difficult to fight, because any reaction is considered overkill. When it bothers you that someone calls you babe or sexy, when it's your customer, you really can't do much.

Sad.

But at least on the phones, I can make a bit of a game of it. It can be really fun to turn it around on them.

And another point, for a lot of these guys, they're not thinking about the woman's feelings, they're just having fun, teasing, and mostly playing a game. A lot of times, in real life and occasionally on the phones, they'll step up to the challenge and literally play a game back and forth with me. They're usually just testing random people's boundaries and reactions for the heck of it.

Despite being female, I do see the appeal. It's fun to tease and play, and even with complete sleezes, it's fun to play that verbal banter with them.

[Noelegy]

Dads are good for that. Men see me out and about with my father, they never look at me twice.

My dad is 6'1" and looks like a lumberjack. My older brother is 6'2 and weighs about 250 lbs, and his twin sons, my nephews, are about the same size. My "little" brother is a biker and a bodybuilder.

I mention all this because my dear hubby is 6'2"...and weighs about 150 lbs soaking wet. He said the first time he met all my family, it was a bit intimidating. Since I was the only girl in the family until my niece came along 3 years ago, I always knew I had lots of big guys on my side, should I ever need them.

[blas]

I love having such big men for family members. My baby brother is still growing at 6'1 and about 230 lbs my dad is nearly 300 lbs and all of my uncles are at least 6 feet. Unfortunately most of them arent as built as they were when they were farm boys growing up. Since my dad is the youngest and the next youngest is 15 years older than him, they are all string beans now.

My 26 year old uncle is a body builder and 6'2. If only he didn't live on the other side of the country.

Maybe this is the reason I love tall men so much? I think it's because since I've grown up with such tall men, I think it's weird when I see a guy my size.

[wagegoth]

I've used alternative methods when they were available. When I worked in a lingerie department, we regularly got calls on the evening shift. Rather than hanging up, attempting to educate the caller, calling security, etc., I would start laughing. Nothing worked better. It will deflate whatever is currently inflated faster than anything else. One time, I got a call at home from a guy claiming to be doing research for Frederick's of Hollywood. Uh, yeah. So I described myself as basically a super-inflated centerfold type, whose preferences in underwear involved either black or purple lace and little else. Then the questions went a little farther, at which point I said, "Sorry, you've got enough information to jerk off to. Bye," hung up the phone, and he never called back.

However, as I've stated before, both personally and professionally I've seen situations turn very nasty (and I've had a couple of stalkers, very inefficient ones, and two very large, scary husbands around who helped defuse this behavior), including a late night car chase through some backroads, and finally to the freeway, ending up in a restaurant in Berkeley and a police report (before cell phones).

My dad owned a service station, my grandfather had a tire shop, I was daddy's helper when he worked on cars, and pretty much anything around the house. I've worked around a lot of men, I'm used to them, and I can handle any kind of language that's tossed at me and a lot of behavior, but I've still been scared, and I have/had a right to be. And if anyone, male, female, straight, gay, whatever, is scared or just uncomfortable, then something needs to be done.

/end lecture

[Gravekeeper]

Maybe this is the reason I love tall men so much? I think it's because since I've grown up with such tall men, I think it's weird when I see a guy my size.

I think its weird when I see a girl my size, but I live in Burnaby so I am perpetually surrounded by tiny Asian women everywhere I go.

As for back to being on topic: I always get called "Dear" or "Sweetie". Which I don't mind so much. On the flip side though I DESPISE being called "pal", "buddy" or "bro" by male callers ( Because that language only comes out when they want something out of you. )

As for the sleaze monkeys, pointing out their behavior does jack and sheet to be honest. If embarrassment actually worked on them they wouldn't have left the house this morning after looking in the mirror to brush their teeth. ( Well, if they brush their teeth....alternatively the reflection off the morning's first beer can might work. )

[XCashier]

I guess only the really pretty girls bitch about getting hit on?

No. I've never been "really pretty"; on my best days I could be charitably described as "cute". That never stopped the sleazy guys from hitting on me, even when I asked them not to, telling them (one time, with tears in my eyes) how badly it upset me. All it did was egg them on even more.

Some guys are just clueless and socially awkward, true. But many guys are just nasty. Sometimes it's very difficult to tell the difference.

[Gabrielle Proctor]

"How self- centered and a stuck up snob do you have to be for you to think that only men you find attractive should/would be allowed to hit on you?"

Ahhh, if only we could properly display sarcasm on the net.

Why can't I choose who's advances are unwanted? I don't think that it's fair to say that "if you're going to accept the attractive guy's flirting, then you have to accept everyone else too." Screw that, I have the choice to say whether their advances are unwanted or not. It could be based on their looks, their attitude, or their smell, it could be anything. In this case, R is completely "gnarly" and "heinous", as my bf puts it, what isn't wrong with him? They could be the most attractive person, but if their attitude sucked I would find that they made me uncomfortable.

The point is: this isn't the 50's. I don't have to take it if I don't want to no matter the circumstaces. I resent you calling me a stuck up snob, that isn't who I am, you don't know me.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I don't think she's saying you have to accept all the guys that hit on you. I think the idea here is that with all other things being equal ( in this case, all the guys doing the hitting on are being respectful), then getting mad because an otherwise respectful guy isn't young or attractive enough to hit on you isn't cool.

I've seen guys be extremely gentlemanly when trying to talk to a woman, and have her turn around and be extremely rude back. She was rude not because they were sleazy or disrespecful. She was rude because they were not attractive in her eyes, so how dare a less than attractive specimen speak to her. That woman was a total jerk, and I'm glad my friends didn't date her.

I've also seen attractive guys act like asses, and girls let them get away with it because they were attractive guys. Also not cool.

No, of course you don't have to respond favorably to all advances. But decency would dictate you respond with respect and manners when the same are given to you. That's all I think that is being said here. If an attractive guy flirts, and he's polite about it, and it's okay, then a less attractive but equally polite guy has a right to flirt, too. And you have a right to politely decline.

[kibbles]

ITA RecoveringKinkoid, if all men or women hitting on you are doing it in a respectful manner (and back off immediately when flirting is not reciprocated), but you act rude to the men/women who are less than attractive then yes you are absolutely a stuck up snob IMO.

[zzapp the witch]

RK = nail on head. It becomes less about interest and reciprocation, and more about common decency and the politeness we expect others to treat us (and our feelings) with.

Living where I live, you get your share (read: majority) of not so attractive guys hitting on you, but I realize that for some of these guys, it took a lot of guts for them to indicate to me that they were interested, so I do my best to let em off easy, and stay friendly. Partly because you never know where life is going to take you, and partly because *I* was the ugly girl in school, and I remember the one time I worked up enough guts to ask my crush to prom, only for him to make fun of me in front of the majority of the school (small town school). I'm just over-sensitive to others' feelings I guess.

Oh, and while I'm thinking about it, the guys I said no to initially? Some of them wanted to be friends, and we are still friendly. And something else: Once I got past the looks, (I'm more of a smarts person anyway), *ugly* guys are better lovers. But don't worry, old smelly creeps stay old smelly creeps, even if you buy them soap and make them check off the days they shower on a calendar.

Also, you shouldn't let yourself take umbrage to anything anyone types on the internet. Everything said here is subjective. We can't display nuance in tone of voice or body language, and smilies are hardly helpful in some situations. If your comment about only wanting men you find attractive to hit on you was meant in sarcasm, then obviously my response does not apply.

There's a reason my internet motto is: "Everyone on the internet is imaginary, put here for my sole entertainment." Try surviving being trolled and flamed on political or gaming message boards, you can't let yourself get offended or hurt by something some 12 year old with a thesaurus says, it'd cripple you IRL.

This is a pretty easy going board compared to most of the others I've been on, Raps has got a good thing here. (Of course, I make it a point to stay away from the off-topic section).

[Rapscallion]

Raps has got a good thing here.

Takes work on all sides. It's worth it, though.

Rapscallion