Pound Sand, Sucky Motor Club

[NecessaryCatharsis]

Yes. I technically know how to change a tire, but I'd rather not if I don't have to. It's why AAA exists.

The colder it gets the lazier I get. Yes I can (and have too many times to count) change a tire. I also have caa (Canadian aaa basically) to rescue me when I need it, and they have changed tires for me too. In my opinion -34 is a stupid temperature for anything to be and that includes me!

[katzklaw]

oof. motor clubs >.> they sound like such a good idea... but srsly sometimes those people are dense. i have a story from the OTHER side... the customer's side...

i live and work in RV parks around the US.. which means i live in an RV. we'd just gotten a new one.. (new being relative. the "new" RV in question is a 40 foot 1979 retired transit bus.) as we were moving it from Chicago to a town in WI, it died on the side of the road. i pulled out the phone and called up my RV road help. i get some guy with a super thick accent obviously reading off a form asking what kind of CAR i had... i corrected him SEVERAL times, but he still sent out a truck far too small to pick up the 40 foot. 16 ton stainless steel behemoth we'd just purchased.
when they finally sent the right sized truck, they tried to tell me they weren't going to pay for the tow because we weren't taking it to Pep Boys. i asked for a manager. and asked the manager if Pep Boys could handle a 31 year old 40 foot diesel pusher with air brakes. she said no. they paid my tow.

that was one looooooooooooooong day.

[Argabarga]

oof. motor clubs >.> they sound like such a good idea... but srsly sometimes those people are dense. i have a story from the OTHER side... the customer's side...

i live and work in RV parks around the US.. which means i live in an RV. we'd just gotten a new one.. (new being relative. the "new" RV in question is a 40 foot 1979 retired transit bus.) as we were moving it from Chicago to a town in WI, it died on the side of the road. i pulled out the phone and called up my RV road help. i get some guy with a super thick accent obviously reading off a form asking what kind of CAR i had... i corrected him SEVERAL times, but he still sent out a truck far too small to pick up the 40 foot. 16 ton stainless steel behemoth we'd just purchased.
when they finally sent the right sized truck, they tried to tell me they weren't going to pay for the tow because we weren't taking it to Pep Boys. i asked for a manager. and asked the manager if Pep Boys could handle a 31 year old 40 foot diesel pusher with air brakes. she said no. they paid my tow.

that was one looooooooooooooong day.

Some people just don't GET it. The "IT" being there's a limit to what a light duty wrecker can pick up and there's some RULES out there about even trying it.

Pusher engine? Automatic Decline
Air brakes? Automatic Decline
Over our equipments GVW limit? Automatic Decline

And DO NOT argue with us!

Had a guy once who claimed we could still tow him because he saw our ad in the paper and picked us because the picture of our trucks "look big enough to do it!"

Yeah, but you already said you're driving something with airbrakes, that's an AUTOMATIC decline, we CANNOT per the DOT tow something with air brakes unless it's with a wrecker with air brakes and a driver with DOT air brake certification, so no. NO. One million times no!

We can't do it! We don't meet LEGAL requirements. The fines for doing that is WELL beyond what that tow's worth.

Is it wrong for me to sometimes wish these guys were left to starve at the side of the road and be eaten by wolves? For some of the stuff they think?

[AmbrosiaWriter]

Forgive my ignorance of the situation... but why can you not tow a vehicle with air-breaks unless the towing vehicle also has air breaks?

[mathnerd]

Forgive my ignorance of the situation... but why can you not tow a vehicle with air-breaks unless the towing vehicle also has air breaks?

I should probably let one of the truckers answer this, but if I remember correctly, it's because vehicles with air brakes lock up when the air hose is disconnected, so the towing vehicle would have to be able to disengage the brakes before it could be moved. Truckers, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[katzklaw]

Some people just don't GET it. The "IT" being there's a limit to what a light duty wrecker can pick up and there's some RULES out there about even trying it.

Pusher engine? Automatic Decline
Air brakes? Automatic Decline
Over our equipments GVW limit? Automatic Decline

And DO NOT argue with us!

Had a guy once who claimed we could still tow him because he saw our ad in the paper and picked us because the picture of our trucks "look big enough to do it!"

Yeah, but you already said you're driving something with airbrakes, that's an AUTOMATIC decline, we CANNOT per the DOT tow something with air brakes unless it's with a wrecker with air brakes and a driver with DOT air brake certification, so no. NO. One million times no!

We can't do it! We don't meet LEGAL requirements. The fines for doing that is WELL beyond what that tow's worth.

Is it wrong for me to sometimes wish these guys were left to starve at the side of the road and be eaten by wolves? For some of the stuff they think?

well, fortunately for us, the company they called DID have a truck big enough... he just didn't bring it the first time around because he thought he was picking up a school bus sized thing... he got there, took one look at our bus and was like

came back a while later with the biggest roll-off i think i've ever seen in my life (like.. 18 wheeler sized... buggar was HUGE) and pulled the whole dang bus up onto the trailer.

and yes... you can't tow something with air brakes because the brakes stay locked if there's no air in the system.

[Shalom]

I've found they're good for compressing the suspension though. I'll use my bottle jack to lift the truck up, and then use the factory jack to compress the leaf so I don't have to jack for 30 minutes to get enough clearance to get the tire off. Works for compressing front suspension too.

My '88 S-10 Blazer has had to have an extra leaf put in the rear springs to prevent a sag (I found out later it would have been cheaper to replace the entire spring pack, but oh well, it's done already.) Since then, if you try to jack it up with the factory scissors jack in the recommended location on the frame rail, you can raise it to the full height of the jack, and the wheel will still be sitting on the ground. Useful if you want to plug a hole in the (brand new, but still defective) fuel tank; not so useful for changing a tire. I now use a hydraulic jack under the axle itself if I need to change the tire.

(By "bottle jack" do you mean a hydraulic jack? I picture a type I saw once, where the piston points straight up and the weight of the jacked vehicle is sitting on top; my jack has the piston situated horizontally.)

I remember the time I tried jacking the truck up once with the factory jack under the shock mount, where it looked like it was supposed to fit, and finding that it got it high up enough to get the flat off, but not high enough to get the spare on. Then I couldn't lower it to replace it elsewhere because I couldn't get the flat back on either. Had to wait for a cop to come by and call the three letters to show up with another jack. (This was back before cell phones were ubiquitous; I didn't have one yet, and the CB wasn't much help either.)

I'm just curious, what would happen if you went to tow a car that had an electronic odometer with no owner or keys in sight and you just...refused the tow? On the grounds you wouldn't get paid anyway, I mean?

On my car with an electronic odometer, if you hit the trip odometer button with the key out, it briefly shows up the mileage. Of course this isn't going to happen if the battery is dead/disconnected, or the computer is damaged.

I got a better question, though. Why not just bullshit a number? Figure 12K miles per year, add a few thousand for a fudge factor, and put it down on the paper. If the car is damaged to the point that you can't get a reading, let them prove you're wrong.

the biggest roll-off i think i've ever seen in my life (like.. 18 wheeler sized... buggar was HUGE) and pulled the whole dang bus up onto the trailer.

Video of one of these machines in action towing a bus: here. Some amusing footage earlier in that video also of him scrapping out an overhead A/C unit that made it too high to legally transport.

and yes... you can't tow something with air brakes because the brakes stay locked if there's no air in the system.

That's why he came along with a compressor and aired up the system first in that video. The driver asked "Are the brakes caged?" and he said they weren't, but by some miracle they held air. G_d knows how long it had been since anyone had started that bus.

[gerund]

The official "Professional" term
...
"A four-way"

Here in Australia we call it a wheel brace

Something like 45 years ago my Father was driving the family on holidays on a road called then (loosely) the "Warrego Highway". Just look on Google maps (or Google earth) anywhere east of Charleville. In those days it was one lane of bitumen with dirt shoulders. Now they show it with a dotted line down the middle. The local council had been grading the shoulders and all the empty beer bottles had been moved onto the road.

After we ran over one of these the car had a flat tyre. The boot was packed like tetris with a family of four's luggage and when my father unloaded it all, the little dinky angled socket that came with the car would not turn any of the wheel nuts.

Here is the scene - we are in the middle of a drought affected area with no water, no trees, no bushes (even the grass was grey). It was the middle of summer and temperatures were around 40+ centigrade (104F) in the shade and there was no shade. There are no mobile phones, no automobile clubs and very little traffic.

Finally a semi-trailer came along and after my Father practically dragged the driver from the cab, he had a big socket spanner that loosened those nuts.

In the next major town, which was about 3 hours drive away, my Father got his tyre fixed and bought a wheel brace (remember that's what we call them). He kept it in his boot for the next 40 years (he passed away over 4 years ago) and never had occasion to use it ever.

On the other hand, after seeing all the trouble (I was about 14 or 15 at the time) I put a wheel brace in my boot every car I owned and used it several times.

Now I would have trouble changing a tyre, so I am a member of the local Automobile club who will change your tyre for nothing. I never go on those outback roads and there are mobile phones I can use to ring for help. Now I don't have a wheel brace in my boot.

[Argabarga]

(By "bottle jack" do you mean a hydraulic jack? I picture a type I saw once, where the piston points straight up and the weight of the jacked vehicle is sitting on top; my jack has the piston situated horizontally.)

Yep, the kind that goes straight up. They're called bottle jacks because the overall shape of the jack's body looks, well, like an old-fashioned glass bottle.

I remember the time I tried jacking the truck up once with the factory jack under the shock mount, where it looked like it was supposed to fit, and finding that it got it high up enough to get the flat off, but not high enough to get the spare on.

This is easy to forget, that the flat is going to make the car/truck sit about 2'' or so lower (or whatever the sidewall height is). Naturally, this is worse for trucks with big tires, because you have to make up sometimes as much as maybe 4'' of sidewall to put on a good spare once the flat comes off.

On my car with an electronic odometer, if you hit the trip odometer button with the key out, it briefly shows up the mileage. Of course this isn't going to happen if the battery is dead/disconnected, or the computer is damaged.

It's about 50-50, some designers account for it and make it so pushing the trip odometer makes it light up even without a key, the other half of the time, even with power, that does nothing without a key. Though they are getting better about it, probably because they're realized that lots of people who aren't the owner will possibly need that info.

[manybellsdown]

There's some great suggestions for a tiny weakling like me in this thread!

Here's a funny story that I was reminded of: my ex is the least mechanically competent male on, possibly, the planet. But when he got a flat, he was positive he could change it. So he pulled out the tools, jacked up the car and ... uh-oh. Missed a step there.

I guess he never heard that one needs to loosen the lug nuts before lifting the tires off the ground. He ended up wrapping his coat around the tire to try and hold it still while his friend tried to unscrew the *spinning* tire. Ruined his coat and ended up having to call for a tow anyway because it never occurred to them to lower the car back down so the wheel would stop turning.

[mathnerd]

There's some great suggestions for a tiny weakling like me in this thread!

It's less about your actual size and strength and more about using what size and strength you have, along with wise choices in tools, to get whatever job you need done.

I'm a fairly strong woman. I'm broad shouldered and work out with both weights and cardio. Most men can still easily out lift me if we're talking about using JUST upper body strength. The trick is, though, that you can use more than just upper body to lift, pull and balance things. I also have large hips and thunder thighs. I use my legs and hips to my advantage in order to compensate for lack of arm strength. I once wrestled a standard sized washer and dryer off the back of a pick up truck by myself relying on mainly my hips and thighs for sheer muscle power and my arms and chest for balance. You don't have to be big or muscular to do "strength" type things. You just need a basic concept of physics to be able to use what you have to your advantage.

[manybellsdown]

Well, like I said ... standing on the end of the tire iron and *bouncing* didn't generate enough force to loosen them on at least one occasion. I have put on a good 30 pounds since those days, though. Might be hefty enough to do it now.

[mathnerd]

That's where a breaker bar comes in handy. The extra length can generate enough extra force to break the nut.

[wolfie]

Some people just don't GET it. The "IT" being there's a limit to what a light duty wrecker can pick up and there's some RULES out there about even trying it.

Pusher engine? Automatic Decline

Knowing the configuration of transit buses, I'm assuming that by "pusher engine" you mean an engine in the back, rather than under the hood where it belongs. Does this mean that if someone with a '73 VW Beetle calls you for a tow, they're out of luck?

I should probably let one of the truckers answer this, but if I remember correctly, it's because vehicles with air brakes lock up when the air hose is disconnected, so the towing vehicle would have to be able to disengage the brakes before it could be moved. Truckers, please correct me if I'm wrong.

On vehicles with air brakes, if you lose air pressure you lose your service brakes (i.e. the brakes that apply when you step on the pedal). To avoid runaways if air pressure is lost, the parking brakes on air brake vehicles are "spring brakes" - on top of the service brake chamber, there's a second chamber with a big honkin' spring in it that applies the brakes with roughly the same force as 60 PSI to the service brake chamber. Note: don't even THINK of disassembling a spring brake chamber. For at least the past 10 years, it's been mandatory for the "shells" of the chamber to be fastened together by a machine-crimped band, rather than a band that can be removed using hand tools (like the original ones were). Also, if a vehicle has been sitting for an extended (over a year) time, and there's any chance that rust has weakened the chambers, replace them before trying to release the brakes. They can hold for a while, then let loose at the worst possible moment (i.e. when a mechanic is underneath trying to adjust the brakes). That spring has enough stored energy to kill someone if it's released suddenly. To release the parking brakes, there's an air chamber that compresses the spring. In the event of an air loss, when the available pressure gets below 60 PSI, it's no longer enough to hold back the spring, and the parking brakes start to apply. When it gets down to 40-50 PSI (normal service brake application if you're not doing a panic stop is around 20 PSI), the parking brake valve will pop out, dumping the air from the spring brake chambers and fully applying the parking brakes.

The disabled vehicle MIGHT have enough air in the reservoirs to release the parking brakes, but unless the tow truck feeds a continuous supply, even a slight leak could result in the pressure dropping far enough to cause a sudden application of the parking brakes while the vehicle is being towed. I'll leave it up to the imagination what could happen if this occurs while a 10 ton vehicle (bobtail tractor) is being towed at highway speeds by a class 4 (e.g. F450) tow truck. A tow truck designed to tow vehicles with air brakes is going to be based on a class 8 (e.g. 379 Peterbilt) chassis, which is going to be equipped with air brakes (and therefore have a compressor which can be used to supply air to the towed vehicle).

In a pinch, a RELATIVELY LIGHT (e.g. shunt tractor) vehicle (would still need to be within the tow truck's load limit - this is pretty much the only kind of air brake vehicle I can think of which would be within the weight limit of a normal tow truck) with air brakes can be towed by a tow truck that can't supply air, but it would need to be towed with the rear wheels raised and the front wheels on the ground. This is because, due to the risk involved if there's a sudden lock-up of the wheels on the steer axle, it's illegal to have spring brakes installed on a steer axle.

[Chromatix]

Apparently the rules in Russia are a tiny bit different.