Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Carbureators, I HATES EM' with a passion.

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Carbureators, I HATES EM' with a passion.

    About a month ago, that big ol' boat of a Pontiac I have started running poorly, it would barely idle, and had very little power when you gave it gas.



    When a car of that age starts behaving that way, with little warning, it's usually the fault of the Carburetor

    Without getting too complex, car engines run on gasoline, but gas itself doesn’t burn very efficiently in liquid form. So, every gasoline engine has a device on it with a function to turn liquid gas into a mist-like vapor, and then mix it with air (in a roughly 7:1 gas to air ratio) which it then fed into the cylinders and is what actually burns to make the engine run.

    Just about every car and truck built from about 1985 to today now use fuel injection, where a tiny computer-controlled nozzle squirts a bit of fuel into the passing airstream. But in the bad ol’ days, before computers could do that precisely, every engine had one of these on it. A carburetor, which does the same thing, in a painfully convoluted way. See, instead of a computer, the “program” is that the carb has a set of internal baffles, and valves and one-way passages that open or close based on how much work the engine is doing. (On a modern fuel injected car, the computer just monitors the speed and throttle and adjusts itself on the fly accordingly) As your engine works harder and harder various chambers inside this thing build up vaccum or pressure, and then open or close to change the fuel/air mix. Everyone, including car guys, HATE working on carbs because they’re a bit on the complex side. And from 1966 to 1981, every Pontiac used one of these, a Rochester Quadra-Jet Carb. Named after Rochester, New York, where the carb factory for all the GM cars was.

    Looks like a plumbers nightmare already doesn’t it?



    Well, it comes apart in 3 major layers, like a wedding cake, and you can see the complexity, each one of those holes in each layer is a passage that something has to flow through, in the right amount, for it all to work.

    Rather than troubleshoot these when they go bad, it’s easier just to buy a rebuild kit (as you can see, that’s what I did) that includes new internal gaskets and valves, and just replace them all. Though if I had to put some money down, I’d wager that the fuel filter (that thing on the middle left side that looks like a shotgun shell) is the culprit.



    After Easter, I’ll put it back on the motor and see if my hunch was right. (and yes, Pontiac used to paint their engines blue)

    - They say nothing good happens at 2AM, they're right, I happen at 2AM.

  • #2
    OMG ! ! ! You just made me miss my favorite thing about working on cars. I loved rebuilding carbs. At one point, my file of exploded views was over an inch thick. I personally don't like fuel infe - injection. That so looks like fun to me. Thanks for the reminder of fun times.

    Comment


    • #3
      paint on an engine...?
      I can see because of rust... but wouldn't it flake off because of heat? (unless it's that type that's all high heat...)
      >_>?
      and what would you paint?
      "Is it the lie that keeps you sane? Is this the lie that keeps you sane?What is it?Can it be?Ought it to exist?"
      "...and may it be that I cleave to the ugly truth, rather than the beautiful lie..."

      Comment


      • #4
        Indeed, Back when engines were cast from iron instead of aluminum, they'd paint the engine blocks with high-temp paint so they wouldn't rust, each division inside GM had different colors, Pontiacs got blue, Chevys got red, Oldsmobiles were orange, if I'm not mistaken.... and so on.

        THat ended in the early 80's when they decided to make only 1 or 2 engines and use them on all the cars, regardless of make.

        You can still see some of the factory paint on the valve covers
        Last edited by Argabarga; 04-24-2011, 02:41 PM.
        - They say nothing good happens at 2AM, they're right, I happen at 2AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          that big ol' boat of a Pontiac I have
          Hehehe.....I had a '73 Grand Ville,made your car look like a compact

          There's a reason they used the Quadra-jet for so long,it was a workhorse,there's lots of aftermarket parts for it,it's easy to rebuild/modify & can be adapted to many engine that didn't use it originally.

          You could always convert to fuel injection.
          "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous he will not bite you.This is the principal difference between a man and a dog"

          Mark Twain

          Comment


          • #6
            At least you only have a single carb to deal with. My '70 MGB has a pair of SUs. These have to be balanced so they're work correctly, which is a pain if you don't have the proper tools. Still, I'd take that over the single Stromberg or Zenith setup that came later. Those work fine, but they don't give as much power. Anyway, carbs are fine if you don't mess with them--the only reason SUs got the 'unreliable' reputation, is that too many owners wouldn't leave them alone.
            Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines. --Enzo Ferrari

            Comment


            • #7
              Or tried to replace them with aftermarket ones that they didn't have a clue how to tune either....

              I've worked on two MG's before, both came with non-original carbs that had been horribly miscalibrated.... those long intake runners don't LIKE mis-matched carbs
              - They say nothing good happens at 2AM, they're right, I happen at 2AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Or you could have something like the Tatra 603, which comes with a quad carb. Some people have got very good at tuning those to run smoothly, but the average one... isn't.

                I think that it's all about efficiency, as the 603's engine is a very small (2.5 litre) air-cooled V8, developing about 100bhp to push a 2-ton car along. With that said, it's supposed to be capable of 100mph, and that's only the limit because it's where the engine redlines in top gear... Aerodynamics FTW.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Heh.....there's a certain car forum I'm a member of (though I haven't posted in a while) where one particular [in]famous member got so fed up with the fuel injection system that he tore the whole thing out, built a custom intake manifold from scratch, and converted to carburetion.
                  "We guard the souls in heaven; we don't horse-trade them!" Samandrial in Supernatural

                  RIP Plaidman.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Quoth Argabarga View Post
                    So, every gasoline engine has a device on it with a function to turn liquid gas into a mist-like vapor, and then mix it with air (in a roughly 7:1 gas to air ratio) which it then fed into the cylinders and is what actually burns to make the engine run.

                    Everyone, including car guys, HATE working on carbs because they’re a bit on the complex side. And from 1966 to 1981, every Pontiac used one of these, a Rochester Quadra-Jet Carb.
                    A couple errors:
                    1. A stochiometric mix (exactly enough fuel to use up all the oxygen) is around 14:1 or 15:1 (can't recall the exact ratio) by weight. 7:1 is too rich to ignite.

                    2. From subsequent posts in this thread, it's clear that not everyone hates working on carbs.

                    3. Checking Wikipedia shows that not all Pontiacs in the 1966 to 1981 model years used Rochester Quadra-Jet carbs. Both the 5th generation (1977-1981) and 6th generation (1982-1986, but that's outside the range you gave) were available with a 350 cubic inch diesel. Also, the Pontiac Acadian (sold in Canada - corporate twin of the Chevette) used a Holley carb on the standard engine starting with the 1979 model year (and starting with the 1981 model year, a diesel was offered). Info from Wikipedia page for the Chevette.
                    Any fool can piss on the floor. It takes a talented SC to shit on the ceiling.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Quoth patiokitty View Post
                      I gotta say that for an older car your vehicles is beautiful. Obviously well maintained. . .
                      I second that, I see soo many older cars that are such complete sh*t boxes come through the autocenter, at times I've wanted to contact my DM and ask if we can institute a "no POS" rule, course he and they would say no
                      "This job would be great if it wasn't for the f***** customers." - Randell 'Clerks'

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        After putting the carb back on, things did not improve. What followed was a lot of dead-end testing, or no testing at all since I was busy with other things, until my Dad and I finally hit the culprit.

                        It's a broken valve spring for one of the cylinders, the intake valve to be specific. When it broke, the valve didn't close when it should have, and has been stuck open this entire time. Without getting too car-guy-complex, an open valve knocks that cylinder out of action, meaning this entire time I've been driving around on only 7 cylinders, hence the power loss and refusal to idle, that dead cylinder just becomes dead weight that the rest of the engine has to work harder to move and it screws up the flow of fuel in and exhaust out of the motor, hence the bad idle, since the engine was trying to digest it's own exhaust instead of feeding it out the tailpipe.

                        Good news, for a car that old, the valve springs are $4 a piece from Napa. I should be back on the road soon.

                        I think the real cuplrit is lack of oil pressure, and those parts looked pretty dry, like they never got enough lube, I may need a new oil pump too... we'll see. The car did sit for a long time in a garage, I wouldn't be surprised if it got a bit gummed up inside.
                        Last edited by Argabarga; 06-15-2011, 07:03 AM.
                        - They say nothing good happens at 2AM, they're right, I happen at 2AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Quoth Argabarga View Post
                          The car did sit for a long time in a garage, I wouldn't be surprised if it got a bit gummed up inside.
                          I had the 'pleasure' of dealing with a gummed-up engine when the MG was off the road. The amount of crap that came out the block was simply mind-boggling. I'm sure they guy rebuilding it wasn't amused. But, the only real damage was a seriously cracked cylinder head. It's not unheard of for the head on a B-series to crack between the 2nd and 3rd cylinders. Which leads to a massive loss of power (not to mention a fouled spark plug) the first time you need to put your foot down on a hill
                          Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines. --Enzo Ferrari

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The heads were all fouled with that black, sandy, crusty crap too, the kind that suggests this thing hasn't had an oil change in a long time (I did change it when I bought it, but by then, it was too late to prevent the damage)

                            Short term, I can at least get mobile again

                            Long term, I have to take that motor out, send it to a machine shop, and have them dunk it in the solvent tank for me to clear that crap out and then rebuild it, that lack of oil probably did wonders for the bearings
                            - They say nothing good happens at 2AM, they're right, I happen at 2AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Quoth Argabarga View Post
                              It's a broken valve spring for one of the cylinders, the intake valve to be specific. When it broke, the valve didn't close when it should have, and has been stuck open this entire time.
                              Be glad you've got a "free-running" engine instead of an "interference" engine. At least the valve that was stuck open didn't get hit by the piston and cause a lot more damage.
                              Any fool can piss on the floor. It takes a talented SC to shit on the ceiling.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X