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  • Honest Opinions Wanted

    I want your opinions on this situation, whatever they may be. I am too close to the situation to be impartial, so am hoping for some fresh eyes. I am intentionally being vague in a few things so that I don't unduly influence any of you one way or another. Thus all names are completely fictitious.

    Cocktail creating bartender contest. Harry is hoping to win. Sponsor announces that there is a tie for first, setting up a tiebreaker. Harry is not one of the two tied for first. Upset by this, Harry leaves, not waiting to find out the final results. The following is a text conversation after this between Harry and Dennis. Dennis showed up to support and cheer for Harry, and stayed when Harry left.

    DENNIS: You came in third. Get back here for the prize.
    DENNIS: Btw, first, second, and third were separated by 0.1, according to [Judge].
    HARRY: At [Bar]. Soon to be at [Other Bar]. Collect it for me. I'm a lousy miss congeniality. And basically third place against these competitors means I suck.
    HARRY: And I'm the 0.1 who lost out and didn't get a chance to win. You're not really helping my mood.
    DENNIS: 0.1. And everyone knows you don't suck. Unless its for money, and then it's cool.
    HARRY: 0.1 means I lost. And you saw the rest of the competition. I'm sure 4th through 7th wasn't even close.
    DENNIS: Probably not. But they did get the right top three.
    HARRY: Gee thanks. Because I don't want to win or place. Showing is good enough.
    DENNIS: Stop being a dick. Not saying you shouldn't have won. You should have. But the top three they picked were the best three. So stop being a whiney little brat and start acting like the adult and the professional we both know you are.
    HARRY: I'm not whining. I lost. You can color it every way you want but I was in this to win it. Third prize is only another way to say second loser.
    DENNIS: I expect my friends to tell me when I'm being a bitch. You always come through in that regard. Right now, you're being a bitch. Leaving once you knew you hadn't won was a bitch move. And I'm saying this not to be a dick or rub it in, but because I expect better from you. You're [Harry's age] and one of the best bartenders I've ever known. Start acting like it.
    HARRY: My mom's still alive. I'll let you know when you can tell me how to live my life. And I've told you many times about how customers perceive you and try to help you be a better bartender and your response was always "I'm funny, fuck them." So your hippocracy is kind of funny.
    DENNIS: I've always appreciated your honesty, even if I have not always agreed with your assessment. Likewise, I will not lie to my friends, as I would never want them to lie to me. So while I would never tell you how to live your life, I will tell you that you were far less than gracious tonight. I don't want to argue with you, Harry. So I'll simply say that I hope you enjoy the rest of your evening.
    HARRY: Are you going to keep trying to be right, which is so important to you, or are you going to be my friend, and just hang with me?
    DENNIS: I'm not trying to be right. Just trying to be a friend. I love you like the brother I never had, and no amount of disagreement or arguing will ever change that. I hope you never forget that.
    HARRY: Of course you argue and type a response and don't just find your friend. #2 reason why this ain't my home-friends who can't be bothered.
    DENNIS: Not finding you because I'm trying to give you space and you're at a very negative place I don't want to be at. Has nothing to do with "can't be bothered." I would hope you know me better than that.
    HARRY: Really? I FUCKING TOLD YOU WHAT BAR I WAS GOING TO BE AT BUT THAT BAR DIDN'T WORK FOR YOU. LUCKILY I SAW MY FRIEND [BEN] PLAYING AND THAT'S WHY I CHANGED MY DESTINATION. IF YOU ARE SO DUMB THAT YOU COULDN'T UNDERSTAND MY DISAPPOINTMENT YOU OWE [RICK] AN APOLOGY. CAUSE HE'S OBVIOUSLY SMARTER THAN YOU. I LOST, I LEFT, I APPLAUD YOU WAITING TO SEE HOW CLOSE I WAS AS A LOSER, HE WOULD HAVE RECOGNIZED I WAS PISSED AND WANTED A FRIEND.
    DENNIS: Have a good night, Harry.
    HARRY: I wanted a friend to hang out with. Guess I don't have any.

    Comments? Opinions? Thoughts?

    "The Customer Is Always Right...But The Bartender Decides Who Is
    Still A Customer."


  • #2
    How trashed was Harry? He's coming off as a mean drunk personality right there. And if he wasn't drunk, the fact that it was the first thing to pop in my head says something about him.
    "I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone, that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - House

    Comment


    • #3
      Some people are poor losers, and it can bring out a lot of bile that is misdirected. It sounds like Harry is upset about a lot of things and taking it out on the wrong person/wrong situation. An inferiority complex/negative self worth coming through, perhaps.

      I feel bad for Harry, but at the same time, he was being a whiny bitch. With time and air, hopefully he realizes that he was being a dillhole, apologize, and then Dennis can address whatever was the real underlying problem with him. If he doesn't, well... That's something to think about. Freaking out on a friend because he lost with no remorse? That would not be okay.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'd like to give Harry the benefit of the doubt, and say that he is way too hard on himself by expecting absolute perfection in what he does, but it really sounds like he's a sore loser dick.

        Either way, he treated Dennis like shit, and if is a true friend, will offer Dennis a genuine apology after he's cooled down.

        Mike
        Meow.........

        Comment


        • #5
          That was indeed very graceless ( or "bitch move" as it was put ). Followed by an inability to take any criticism. Followed by an attempt to turn it around and make it about Dennis. Then a crazed outburst that essentially sounds like attempting to find a reason to be mad at Dennis. Even if it makes no real sense.

          Quite immature and rather petulant. Classic Drama Queen(tm) behaviour. -.-

          Comment


          • #6
            Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment.

            Yeah, occasionally our friends are whiny bitches. But is the heat of the moment really the time to correct that sort of behaviour? Seems pretty self-defeating to me. All you are doing is reinforcing the elements that started the petulant behaviour to begin with. "I'm a loser, and even my friends won't support me when I need them."

            I'd like to say that as a Dennis, the dialogue would be the same up until "Stop being such a dick." Instead of all the name calling (and ample excuses for Harry to redirect his anger) in that exchange, maybe something along the lines of "All right Harry, you want me to hang out and snag your prize, or just meet you at Other Bar in ten?" The next day's conversation could start with "Geez, why were you so ticked about that stupid contest?"

            Comment


            • #7
              Harry's being kind of a bitch. Dennis could have been more diplomatic about it.
              The High Priest is an Illusion!

              Comment


              • #8
                DENNIS: I expect my friends to tell me when I'm being a bitch. You always come through in that regard. Right now, you're being a bitch. Leaving once you knew you hadn't won was a bitch move. And I'm saying this not to be a dick or rub it in, but because I expect better from you. You're [Harry's age] and one of the best bartenders I've ever known. Start acting like it.

                I think Dennis should have bitten his tongue on this and the rest of the conversation. Harry was in no mental space to actually hear and comprehend what Dennis was (quite rightfully!) trying to say.

                Dennis should have made a note - mental or otherwise - to discuss it with Harry at a time when Harry would have been receptive to it.


                But Harry was being a dick. It was a contest. He came in third. Third is DAMN GOOD. A sensible, mature person would be gracious to those who came in first and second, gracious to those who didn't place, and accept the third place win with pride.

                Perfection is for Gods. I'm not a god. I'm a human. Therefore, imperfect. Therefore, even in my fields of expertise, I will sometimes come in second or third, or even (shock horror dingo-shark) not place at all!

                Sometimes a contest even has four, five, or six people in it who are at the top of their field. Oddly enough, they can't all place.



                Harry's responses to Dennis beyond the point I quoted are a result of the combination of his dickish reaction to not winning outright; and his unwillingness (or flat-out inability) to process what Dennis was trying to tell him at that moment.


                My recommendations for future actions from Dennis:

                - Have a different mutual friend be the one who tells Harry what he dick he'd been, and try to help him learn to handle being 'one of the top N in the contest' rather than having to always be first.
                Harry's likely to be unreceptive to this particular conversation from Dennis, for however long Harry tends to hold grudges - conscious or unconscious grudges.

                - Wait a week or so, then make a friendly move towards Harry.

                - Be willing to make an apology for trying to discuss the topic at that time; or for leaving Harry to sulk alone; or ... whatever Dennis can look back on and see that he regrets doing regarding his friendship with Harry.

                - Be willing to accept that until Harry becomes more mature about winning and placing and 'losing'; Harry's not going to perceive that he did anything wrong. Don't expect an apology from him, at least not for several years.
                Last edited by Seshat; 06-11-2013, 01:10 PM.
                Seshat's self-help guide:
                1. Would you rather be right, or get the result you want?
                2. If you're consistently getting results you don't want, change what you do.
                3. Deal with the situation you have now, however it occurred.
                4. Accept the consequences of your decisions.

                "All I want is a pretty girl, a decent meal, and the right to shoot lightning at fools." - Anders, Dragon Age.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've seen arguments like this come from 8 year olds. When Harry said he wasn't going to bother both sides should have just let it drop. An argument over this is FAR too petty to keep going.
                  I AM the evil bastard!
                  A+ Certified IT Technician

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    For those who were wondering, I was Dennis and Harry is a friend of mine...and I'll leave it at that. I wasn't more specific because I wanted opinions that weren't potentially clouded by the fact that I was one of the players.

                    I agree that I probably should have let it go sooner than I did, but I feel I showed some maturity (not a lot, just some) by letting it go when I did, because my instinct was to continue arguing, to answer things point by point, and it's taken me many years to recognize that sometimes I just need to walk away.

                    So I texted "Harry" today, saying simply that I hoped his day was going well. Figured he'd be too stubborn (or embarrassed) to be the first to say something. I was pleasantly surprised to find out I was right. He texted me back that he was doing as well as one could be having drunkenly pissed off both a good friend (presumably me) and his girlfriend. I don't yet know how badly he pissed off his (new and awesome) girlfriend, but I'm hoping not too much...she's a keeper.

                    So the hatchet is buried, the water has flowed under the bridge, and the dead horse is no longer being beaten. Life goes on, and hopefully, all is well.

                    Thanks to everyone for their opinions...I saw things I would not have seen on my own. I appreciate all the input!

                    "The Customer Is Always Right...But The Bartender Decides Who Is
                    Still A Customer."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      UPDATE: All is good with the girlfriend. That is all.

                      "The Customer Is Always Right...But The Bartender Decides Who Is
                      Still A Customer."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Having recently been in an argument that should never have happened, I totally agree with Seshat here. Sometimes you really do have to just let things go. I'm glad it worked out for everybody.


                        *"Dennis" - I kinda thought that might be you, Jester. It just sounded like you.
                        When you start at zero, everything's progress.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If you're not used to letting things go, and letting go when you did is an improvement for you, then YAY! Go you!

                          And it sounds like Harry surprises me - he's more mature than it seemed. I'd still recommend letting someone else (perhaps awesome girlfriend) whack him over the head with a dead fish for being immature about coming in third. But I think he'll be able to at least try to be gracious about it next time. Or maybe the time after that.

                          Edit to add:
                          One of the ways I learned to let go in conversations is to ask myself 'what am I trying to achieve in this conversation?'

                          In the conversation in the OP, your desired goal was to get Harry to see what he'd done wrong. So the next step is to think 'how can I best achieve that?' - and in this case, the answer was 'wait till he's in a different frame of mind'.
                          Last edited by Seshat; 06-12-2013, 09:40 AM.
                          Seshat's self-help guide:
                          1. Would you rather be right, or get the result you want?
                          2. If you're consistently getting results you don't want, change what you do.
                          3. Deal with the situation you have now, however it occurred.
                          4. Accept the consequences of your decisions.

                          "All I want is a pretty girl, a decent meal, and the right to shoot lightning at fools." - Anders, Dragon Age.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            All correct of course, Seshat. But there were three things hindering me from seeing that more quickly.
                            1. I'm stubborn.
                            2. I'm naturally argumentative.
                            3. Harry wasn't the only one who'd been drinking.

                            "The Customer Is Always Right...But The Bartender Decides Who Is
                            Still A Customer."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              <laughs>

                              D'oh. I can't drink (messes with my meds) so #3 didn't even occur to me.


                              In the hypothetical future when I hypothetically come to Key West and The Bar, I shall have to order a taster set along with someone to finish the tasters after I have the merest sip. :P
                              I don't suppose anyone's interested in being the 'taster finisher'? <wide evil grin>
                              Seshat's self-help guide:
                              1. Would you rather be right, or get the result you want?
                              2. If you're consistently getting results you don't want, change what you do.
                              3. Deal with the situation you have now, however it occurred.
                              4. Accept the consequences of your decisions.

                              "All I want is a pretty girl, a decent meal, and the right to shoot lightning at fools." - Anders, Dragon Age.

                              Comment

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