The sucky (non) customer...

[mjr]

Web Development story of my own...

A good friend of mine said he knew a guy who was looking to build an entertainment website listing concerts and concert dates in my area. And since I was looking to make some extra cash with some side work, I agreed to meet with the guy to discuss what he might want.

So I meet with him at the local AstroDollars (get it??) coffee place, and he goes over a basic design with me. Nothing I can't do. Administrative interface, some DB work, front end.

Anyway, when the topic of money comes up, he hems and haws about it. That should have been red flag #1. He does this every time I mention money, in our next few conversations. That should have been red flag #2.

So I get some basic ideas on paper (having not yet been paid -- this was my naive mistake).

So yet again, I start asking him about money. Then he starts to mention "a percentage" of whatever his site makes. Yeah, I don't think so. For several reasons. He didn't say what "a percentage" is. 1%? 5%? 25%? He never said. Accepting a percentage might have been different if his website were already bringing in money. I mean, if his site was already bringing in $5 million, and he wanted to give me 5%, that would be cool, because then that's $250,000.

Secondly, he didn't tell me how much he actually anticipated the site making. Thirdly, I don't know that he would have been honest with me about that figure anyway. He always seemed dodgy when financials came up.

Then, right before Thanksgiving, he tells me "I'll send you over a contract". Guess who never received the contract. That's right. ME. His excuse? "I forgot because I was busy." Yeah? Well, why didn't you send it over when you were on the phone with me? Or immediately following our call? The dude had time.

At that point, I'd actually put together a couple of DB tables (but with no data) and had just thrown together a couple of .NET pages. Why, you ask? Because I'm generally a nice guy.

So I finally had enough. I basically sent him an email saying the following:

---------
Since I have other obligations, I'm not doing work for free, and I have not yet received the contract you promised, I'm discontinuing work on your project.

All work that I've done on your site up to this point belongs to me. If you want the work that I've done, we can work out a payment-for-work price, but only via email. I'll give you 30 days to decide. After that, the files are mine, and I can do with them what I wish.

If you do wish to pursue this, and a pay-for-work price is agreed upon, payment must be received within 10 days. Once payment is received, I will email you the files within 72 hours.
-----------

He came back and tried to tell me that it was a "basic contract" (no contract is "basic"). Blargle, blargle, not trying to shaft you, etc...

I just replied back to that telling him that I didn't think it was a fit for me to do work for a "percentage" (one which I may never see), and I had other obligations, and we must have had a communication disconnect. Told him it didn't make sense for me to work on a project that didn't provide immediate income.

No real need to describe the rest of the email. That was the last I heard from him, though.

I've learned some lessons from it, though.

I don't have time to do side work right now (went back to school), but if I ever did, I would spend some time researching what to charge, and ask for a deposit up front before any work is done.

[PepperElf]

(get it??)

Yep. That was cute

Anyway, when the topic of money comes up, he hems and haws about it.

Yeah sounds sucky. Especially since he never bothered to give you a contract.


I mean sometimes "percentage" deals CAN work out. Blendtec did one (Tom Dickson calls it the best deal he ever made) with Jamba Juice - instead of charging $10K for a blender system, Blendtec gets 5 cents from every sale.

However that's a specific amount and with a contract. In your case it's an "up-in-the-air-mystery-percentage" ... and no contract to solidify anything.

Sounds like he was trying to sucker you into free work. And possibly had no clue what good design work really goes for. (or knew it... and just didn't like it)

[mjr]

Quoth PepperElf

Yep. That was cute


Yeah sounds sucky. Especially since he never bothered to give you a contract.


I mean sometimes "percentage" deals CAN work out. Blendtec did one (Tom Dickson calls it the best deal he ever made) with Jamba Juice - instead of charging $10K for a blender system, Blendtec gets 5 cents from every sale.

However that's a specific amount and with a contract. In your case it's an "up-in-the-air-mystery-percentage" ... and no contract to solidify anything.

Sounds like he was trying to sucker you into free work. And possibly had no clue what good design work really goes for. (or knew it... and just didn't like it)

Yeah, I know.

As I said, I learned a few things from it.

I think in the future if I ever take on any side work it's going to be a minimum of $500 for a 3 page static site (or does that seem a little pricey??). I could knock that out on a Saturday morning, if the customer cooperates with layout, color scheme, content, etc.

Price would just go up from there.

Create graphics? Extra. Tie it to a DB/Dynamic content? extra.

BIG site? LOTS extra.

But you're right, sometimes a percentage deal can work out. Like I was saying, if he had a $5 million business already, and wanted me to do a full re-build of his site for 5%, that's a job that would be hard to say no to.

[sirwired]

You can ask Seraph, but yeah, $500 does seem a bit pricey for three static pages unless you are doing a large amount of highly-custom artwork.

[EricKei]

Quoth mjr

I think in the future if I ever take on any side work it's going to be a minimum of $500 for a 3 page static site (or does that seem a little pricey??).

Look around for comparable work, estimates, maybe freelance sites? Better to ask too much and offer a "discount" / allow for bargaining than to undercharge and have to raise the price so that you won't be working for a dollar an hour when all is said and done. If your rate is at the point where you get "just enough" work (meaning, not "all you can handle", but the bills get paid), your price level is just about right. Also, starting a little high can help to filter out the no-hopers who don't plan to actually pay you anyway (the "WHAT?! A hundred bucks for a ten page site made from scratch?! What a ripoff!" or the "$800? Hm...How about $200 instead?" people).

edit: Yeah, definitely talk to Seraph and any other webby people we have around here first, talk with colleagues, get a good idea of what is realistic, and keep a portfolio of prior works/links to sites you've done.

And make sure to put everything in writing, even if it's just regarding payment terms like how much up front, how much on completion, etc -- and ALWAYS include wording that allows for higher expenses due to changes requested mid-stream, extension of time due to customer-caused delays, etc...Be sure that copyright/re-use rights are explicitly spelled out, as well

[PepperElf]

I'd also recommend checking out seraph threads. forewarned is forearmed. there's a reason she's the "enemy of normalcy"

cos you may need to be prepared to fight off clients who refuse to pay, try to reverse payment, or steal your content to use elsewhere

oh and always keep the source information (proof of your right to use etc) for any graphics you use.

[mjr]

Quoth PepperElf

I'd also recommend checking out seraph threads. forewarned is forearmed. there's a reason she's the "enemy of normalcy"

cos you may need to be prepared to fight off clients who refuse to pay, try to reverse payment, or steal your content to use elsewhere

oh and always keep the source information (proof of your right to use etc) for any graphics you use.

This is great advice.

Well, I think fighting off clients who refuse to pay might be remedied somewhat by getting that "Up front" deposit. The problem is them refusing to make the final payment, and continuing to change the scope of the work ("now do this, now do that, etc..."). But that may be remedied, too, with a good contract laying out specifically the scope of what is to be done, and having it signed off on.

But of course, you're right about reversing payment (or "stopping payment", as I've heard it).

Unless, maybe, I demand a cashier's check. I don't think payment can be stopped on those.

[EricKei]

As for refusal to pay? Simple: No final payment = no website. Keep all files, images, etc on your end; at best, set up a subdomain of a URL you own used just for previews (take screenshots of how the finished site looks on your end -- if they want a working copy to test out, keep it on your server and do what you can to prevent them from stealing it from there (passworded ftp access, block right-click, etc), tho none of these are infallible; as has been said, keep copyright in writing for EVERYTHING. Hide text within the code that can be used to prove your authorship.

An ongoing project/revisions/fixing up a site someone else made would be a bit different, but can be done similarly -- no money, no uploadey ^_^

Quoth mjr

Unless, maybe, I demand a cashier's check. I don't think payment can be stopped on those.

I had heard that people have figured out ways around these and/or faking them. International Money Orders are supposedly one of the few things banks don't question anymore, but accepting only those is a bit extreme

[wolfie]

Quoth mjr

So I meet with him at the local AstroDollars (get it??) coffee place, and he goes over a basic design with me.

By any chance, do you mean Kara Thrace's chain of coffee shops?

[mjr]

Quoth wolfie

Kara Thrace's chain of coffee shops?

I had to look up Kara Thrace...but yes...

No, I'm not familiar with Battlestar Galactica...