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  • Why should we pay you in full if the work provided by ourselves sucks?

    After my introductory posting under “New members” this is going to be my first “real” thread, so please be gentle.

    [Background]As I have pointed out in my introduction, I’m a technical translator, mainly translating from English to German, my mother-tongue. As such I also work for agencies, which basically do the administrative stuff (and sometimes QA) while handing out the actual translation to guys and gals like me. Clients of such agencies are mostly companies that need one document translated into several different languages (think operating instructions, for example) and don’t want to go translator-hunting for each and every language. The agency choses a suitable translator from their database, gets back the finished document from said translator and return is to the client, after performing their own duties (QA, DTP …). All communication between client and translator usually happens via the agency.[/Background]

    A few years ago I get a proofreading order from my favorite agency. This is basically the finished PDF version of a translation I have done in the past (usually plus material that has been re-cycled from the previous version of the product and which I have thus probably not seen before), which I have to check for any and all mistakes, be it spelling mistakes, grammar mistakes, missing sentences, mistranslations, layout problems … you name it. The agency issues a purchase order (PO) for my hourly rate based on the number of pages in said PDF divided by 10. So I have to read 10 pages per hour, which in 99% of the time is a generous estimate and usually it takes me considerably less time to finish such an order. But would I be posting this here, if this was the case here?
    So the first thing I notice is that the page count between the English and German version of the PDF differs by about 10 pages. That’s not unusual because the German texts tend to get longer because of the behemoth called German grammar. Some parts in the English PDF have been marked as “no need to check this”, so I think that the work-estimate will work after all and get to work on this order. I read page after page after page and find mistake after mistake after mistake, realizing that I have never seen the majority of this text before. So my translation (the text I recognize as being my work is absolutely fine) has been incorporated into pages and pages from some other manual which obviously has never been proofread before. So for every mistake I find, I have to mark it, add a running number, enter the number along with the wrong and correct text into an Excel-sheet and maybe even add a comment describing the mistake if it isn’t obvious. As you can imagine, this puts quite a dent in my timing schedule.
    About 2/3 through the order I have to admit that I will never be able to finish the order within the client’s time estimate. As the purchase order is my basis for invoicing my work, I have to get approval for anything going over the total given. So I get back to the project manager (PM) at the agency, explaining the discrepancy between the two page counts and the constantly rising number of errors I keep finding and asking if I should stop at the time mark they have set or if I should finish the order and take note of the additional time spent, that is not covered by the PO. The PM can’t reach the client (it’s Friday and they are a couple of time zones ahead of us), but tells me to finish the order as requested and let her know about the additional time spent, she’ll update the PO with the actual time spent.
    So I finish my work, return the necessary files and inform the PM about the time it really took me to complete the order. I think nothing more of it, because I know all the PMs of this agency and everybody is always nice and helpful and there have never been any problems so far.

    About two weeks later I feel the need to issue some invoices (as I really like to get paid for my work and nobody pays me a dime without a proper invoice ) and get to work listing all the projects for this agency. Oh wait … I never received the updated PO, so I can’t claim the correct amount for the order. I contact the PM, asking her to please send me the updated PO so that I can properly invoice everything. She gets back to me telling me that I will receive the updated PO from her colleague, confirming the time spent once more. The next day I hear back from her colleague: They have been in contact with the client and the client is refusing to pay more than the estimate given at the start of the project. I write back to tell him, that usually the estimate is pretty generous for me, but in this case … and I again explain about the different page counts and the ginormous number of mistakes I had to correct. The PM writes back telling me that the client claims that they always state the page count for the English version, because that’s what I have to check. At this point my mind comes to a screeching halt. Wait. What? So they want to tell me that I can check the German translation just by reading the English version and because the English version is shorter, the additional pages don’t count? I try to wrap my mind around this and failing to do so, I express my consternation to the PM, who is just as unhappy about the situation as I am. He promises to resolve the situation somehow and to get back to me as soon as possible.

    A few days go by and finally I receive an updated PO for my work. The PM explains that the client is adamant about not paying even one cent more than the estimate, but that the agency will cover the difference themselves because they value me and my work and are well aware of the fact that I did deliver good work and even obtained the OK from the original PM when it became clear that the estimate wouldn’t cover the whole work. I thanked the PM for all his efforts, but I was still fuming over the client’s reaction. As I was not keen on repeating such an experience I then informed the PM to please updated their database: I was still willing to do translations for said client, but asked them to please find other translators from now on for all the client’s proofreading-orders.
    This was the first (and so far only) time that I had to “cut off” a client due to their unwillingness to own up to the bad quality of their own work. I’d be happy if this would remain the only one.

    To everybody who made it to this point: Thanks a lot for bearing with me through my first thread on CS.com. I hope my explanations of my work didn’t bore you to death; I tried to only include what’s necessary to understanding my line of work/the story/my irritation.

    Tl;dr – I had a hard time getting paid for work I did, because my end client preferred to ignore the fact that they provided substandard material.
    “If you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it saying 'End-of-the-World Switch. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH', the paint wouldn't even have time to dry.”
    ― Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time

  • #2
    I would hope the agency is also rethinking this client. Paying based on the English page-count when they need the German proofread almost seems like scamming - paying for one thing but expecting another. The agency will lose every time.
    I will not be pushed, stamped, filed, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own. --#6

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    • #3
      Well at the very least, the agency may begin stopping all work once they reach the estimated time limit. Unless they receive a revised PO for the work, that is. The other option is of course to simply pad the estimate. We have a few customers where we always pad the quotation, because we know that somehow we'll need the extra time/funds for that customer.
      A lion however, will only devour your corpse, whereas an SC is not sated until they have destroyed your soul. (Quote per infinitemonkies)

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      • #4
        Your storytelling style is fine - and your English is pleasantly fluent and correct. Much better than my Deutsch!

        Danke for an interesting story.
        Seshat's self-help guide:
        1. Would you rather be right, or get the result you want?
        2. If you're consistently getting results you don't want, change what you do.
        3. Deal with the situation you have now, however it occurred.
        4. Accept the consequences of your decisions.

        "All I want is a pretty girl, a decent meal, and the right to shoot lightning at fools." - Anders, Dragon Age.

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        • #5
          I couldn't even tell that English was your second language, you're that good.
          My Guide to Oblivion

          "I resent the implication that I've gone mad, Sprocket."

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          • #6
            I can not even wrap my head around that. They wanted you to proof-read a document, but use the small page count? That just plain sounds like fraud (or at least misrepresenting the amount of work).

            If I was your agency, I would be having a discussion about no longer accepting jobs unless the page count was for the work being proof-read. Though, they might have done this. It does sound like you are working with a good agency.
            I might be crazy, but I'm not Insane.

            What? You don't play with flamethrowers on the weekends? You are strange.

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            • #7
              Quoth Gilhelmi View Post
              I can not even wrap my head around that. They wanted you to proof-read a document, but use the small page count? That just plain sounds like fraud (or at least misrepresenting the amount of work).
              The client is trying to get the goods on the cheap. You get what you pay for.

              Quoth Gilhelmi View Post
              If I was your agency, I would be having a discussion about no longer accepting jobs unless the page count was for the work being proof-read. Though, they might have done this. It does sound like you are working with a good agency.
              I don't know about that. The OP clearly said that his rate was based on his hourly rate divided by each 10 pages of the PDF, meaning he does 10 pages per hour; he also says this is more than enough time. So technically in most cases, he would get the work done in far less than the time billed for, meaning he's actually making a profit because he can devote hours he's already being paid for to another project.

              There's nothing wrong with this, because some projects will take up the full time, and some will take more, meaning the client gets more than they paid for. Usually it all works out in the wash.

              In this case, though, the client wanted the base rate based on the English version and the shorter page number; which means they were asking for far, far less than what they would normally be expected to pay. That's not right. And it didn't help that the errors were so numerous he'd probably have been better off doing the original translation himself instead of proofreading. The agency paid the OP the difference upon realizing what had happened; they had no way to know the OP was going to get screwed by the client.

              I blame the client, solidly, for the FU.

              BTW: to
              They say that God only gives us what we can handle. Apparently, God thinks I'm a bad ass.

              Comment


              • #8
                Quoth Words4theWorld View Post
                [Background]As I have pointed out in my introduction, I’m a technical translator, mainly translating from English to German, my mother-tongue.
                This sounds like you translate English technical gobbledegook into German technical gobbledegook. You should get hazard pay

                My German classes were far too long ago, but compound nouns always scared us. Some words are just far too long to bite off and chew. When we discussed our college majors in class, I think I had it somewhat easy, only spitting out 'Computerwissenschaft.' Too bad I only had 3 semesters, so my German fluency is lacking, especially after nearly 30 years. Eep! 30!

                Sometimes when I'm bored at work (and not hanging out here on CS ) I will look at the online German computer books at O'Reilly's Safari, to see how long it is before I need to look up a scary compound noun. I think my current fave is Sicherheitsnanforderungen. I ran across it trying to read a book on UNIX hacks for wikis So, of course the non-technical translation I found isn't precise enough for that context, so then I got to ponder what it was really trying to say. Fun stuff! OK, I'm weird.

                oder, Willkommen!
                Smile, or I'll smack you silly!
                At what age does a vampire become a crazy old bat? :[

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                • #9
                  Does your agency do languages that tend to be shorter than English text, Words? Be interesting to find out if Sucky Client takes their lumps on those, or if they back off that whole "always state the page count for the English version" BS.

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                  • #10
                    Wow! I didn’t think that so many of you would know German. I have lots of respect for you, because I’d hate to learn the language, especially given the fact that even most native speakers are having a hard time with the grammar. Maybe I should start writing my stories in German for you to practice.
                    Quoth Seshat View Post
                    Your storytelling style is fine - and your English is pleasantly fluent and correct. Much better than my Deutsch!
                    Danke for an interesting story.
                    Quoth Tama View Post
                    I couldn't even tell that English was your second language, you're that good.
                    Thanks a lot to both of you!! That really means a lot to me, especially as it’s always hard to judge your own knowledge of a different language.
                    Quoth sms001 View Post
                    Does your agency do languages that tend to be shorter than English text, Words?
                    Most languages (at least the Romance languages like Spanish, Italian, French …) tend to always be longer than the English. Just the fact that we use different articles for different genders and have to inflect nouns and adjectives give us a certain “disadvantage”. Add the fact that there are certain words in English that have no direct translation but need a description in other languages and you have a word/page explosion. Of course I can’t think of an example off the top of my head, but when I’ll stumble upon one, I’ll show you what I mean.
                    Quoth vikingchyk View Post
                    This sounds like you translate English technical gobbledegook into German technical gobbledegook. You should get hazard pay
                    I always hope that my gobbledegook is at least a little better to understand. There are several (Asian) companies where the people writing the manuals only speak English as a second (or third, or fourth …) language. If I myself have to read a sentence about ten times before I even have a vague idea about what the person is trying to tell me, I’m not surprised anymore that people are having a hard time programming their VCR (yes, I still know those things ), taking sharp photos with their cameras or hooking their sound system up to their TV.
                    If you come across any words you don’t understand, just give me a shout. I’m doing quite some work in the field of “Computerwissenschaft” myself and even though I’m just the word-juggler and not the computer-geek I might still be able to point you in the right direction.
                    Quoth Sapphire Silk View Post
                    The OP clearly said that his rate was based on his hourly rate divided by each 10 pages of the PDF, meaning he does 10 pages per hour; he also says this is more than enough time. So technically in most cases, he would get the work done in far less than the time billed for, meaning he's actually making a profit because he can devote hours he's already being paid for to another project.
                    Basically you are absolutely correct. If all the projects would even out in the end, I wouldn’t complain. I don’t know how other translators handle this, but for me (and maybe I’m far too honest) the PO is the top mark and I only invoice the time I actually spent. Say for example that the agency issues the PO for 5 hours of work, but I finish the work in 4.5 hours. In that case I only invoice the 4.5 hours. If other translators invoice the total on the PO even if they spend (much) less time, I hope that I at least get a few karma points.
                    “If you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it saying 'End-of-the-World Switch. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH', the paint wouldn't even have time to dry.”
                    ― Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time

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                    • #11
                      For those reading this thread that have not been introduced to the beauty of many languages, we have Omni-Lingual.
                      "I don't have to be petty. The Universe does that for me."

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                      • #12
                        This post reminds me of this Dilbert comic strip, as in that's who the client should be hiring if they want it done for free.

                        Oh, wait, they do have a free translator! It's called Google Translate, and although it's not 100% accurate, it is, at least, free.
                        cindybubbles (👧 ❤️ 🎂 )

                        Enter Cindyland here!

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                        • #13
                          One of the few german words I know is Gemuetlichkeit which i believe has no literal english translation..

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                          • #14
                            My only experience with the German language is Opera, but these days, even the big American opera companies are doing a lot of performances in English. Sad, if you ask me. The beauty of the lyrics is often lost in translation due to a lot of issues already addressed (no direct translation, different lengths of words not fitting the melody as well as the original, etc.) Translating technical gobbledygook has to be a whole lot more difficult than translating opera.
                            At the conclusion of an Irish wedding, the priest said "Everybody please hug the person who has made your life worth living. The bartender was nearly crushed to death.

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                            • #15
                              I took German for six years in junior high and high school and still somehow managed not to really be fluent in it. This is because shockingly little of the class time was spent on things like grammar structure and learning how to speak at conversation speed. It was more "for fun," particularly the last three years.

                              Seriously. We'd read books and stories, very slowly, then try to do it faster, then break up into groups and do skits on what we just read. Or we'd do little art projects. One year we were assigned to make German-language valentines that were displayed in the classroom for all the classes to vote on. While everybody else was making valentines with the usual sappy sentiments, mine featured a picture of a guy ripping the heart out of another guy's catch and said "Du hast mein Herz gestohlen!" (You've stolen my heart!)

                              It won second place. This is one of the proudest achievements of my life.

                              Oh yeah, we spent a lot of time playing Tafelspiel (Board Game). Class split up into two teams, teacher would give a word or phrase in English or German, and the two players would write the appropriate English or German translation on the board, with the one coming up with the correct answer the quickest earning a point for their team. I killed at Tafelspiel.

                              Then, at the end of senior year, I somehow got talked into taking the AP German test, despite all my classmates trying to talk me out of it based on things they'd heard from older friends who'd taken the test. I bombed it simply because all the speaking (it was an audiotape test) was done at conversation speed and we simply weren't taught to recognize it or speak at that speed. I couldn't figure out what was being said on the tape. It all sounded like people clearing their throats.

                              Ah well, it was amusing and it was pretty cool to go through six years of the language with the same people every year.
                              Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.

                              "I never said I wasn't a horrible person."--Me, almost daily

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