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  • I shouldn't have to pay

    A job was quoted that requires two different crews at two different times to do. 1st part of job was complete, then invoiced. Second part of job isn't scheduled for another 5-6 weeks. Customer calls to complain that he got invoiced for the first portion of his job, some his comments:

    I don't even know what this is, how can I pay this when I don't know what I'll be charged for the next part (If you subtract what was invoiced from what was quoted you know exactly what will be charged)
    The quote only showed one price, it's illegal to send two bills unless the quote shows two prices for the different stages (No, no it's not, not even a little bit)
    It's illegal to charge for work that isn't complete (We actually charged for the portion of the work that is complete, like it clearly says on the invoice)
    Nobody else would ever bill for work done if the whole job wasn't complete (except for every other place I've worked, and most of the ones I've heard about)
    I'm not paying anything until all the work is done.

    The last one is the funniest. Total billed to date: $1400, total work left to complete and amount remaining to be billed $1100, time before we can't lien a house 30 days, time until the next portion will be ready, about 40 days, cost to lien a house, which is 100% included in the recovery fee unless the bill is paid in full before the 30 days is up about $900. The chance we are coming to do any more work without BOTH the bills (after this little stunt) being paid in full 0%

    Congratulations on adding about 40% to your bill, or guaranteeing your work will never be finished unless you hire someone else (who will charge you more for taking over part way through the project) and then guaranteeing you can never sell or mortgage your house. Well thought out plan. If you hadn't screamed and yelled and been a dick on the phone we might have worked something out with you. And we won't be taking your suggestion that we should warn people on the quote that partial invoices might be made against a portion of the job completed, because no one else needs that warning, it's universally known by people who occasionally go outside and talk to others.
    Pain and suffering are inevitable...misery is optional.

  • #2
    I'm easily confused...

    So he refuses to pay the $1400, while being a jerk. You put a lien on the house, costing yourself or the company $900, making the total bill $3400?

    I do understand about liens being a bitch to deal with. There was a great little house I looked at, but couldn't get title insurance on because of a lien. No title insurance = no mortgage!

    Why don't these mannerless, short-tempered goons figure out that being nice pays? Oh. Forgive me. I know... you can't fix stupid.
    I don’t have enough middle fingers to show you how I feel about you.
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    Right. Well. When you manage to pull the concussed deer of your intellect away from the oncoming headlights of life let me know. - Grave keeper

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    • #3
      Unfortunately some people need a sharp reality check on how the real world works...

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      • #4
        Quoth NecessaryCatharsis View Post
        And we won't be taking your suggestion that we should warn people on the quote that partial invoices might be made against a portion of the job completed, because no one else needs that warning, it's universally known by people who occasionally go outside and talk to others.
        And if you were in the UK doing that you'd be committing a naughty, staged payments need to be part of the quote. At least so say the consumer programmes dealing with cowboy builders. IIRC it's the Schedule of Works.
        ludo ergo sum

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        • #5
          Quoth paxillated View Post
          I'm easily confused...

          So he refuses to pay the $1400, while being a jerk. You put a lien on the house, costing yourself or the company $900, making the total bill $3400?
          We've billed $1400, if it's not paid by the end of this week we will put a lien on it costing around $900, making bill to date $2300. Customer will need the rest of his work done to get an occupancy permit, so someone (us or another company) will bill him at least another $1100 for that work, for a total of $3400+. The office manager is going to try to call him this week and see if he has calmed down any, and is ready to be reasonable, or if we are going ahead to put lien on.

          Quoth rvdammit View Post
          And if you were in the UK doing that you'd be committing a naughty, staged payments need to be part of the quote. At least so say the consumer programmes dealing with cowboy builders. IIRC it's the Schedule of Works.
          I didn't know that, although this guy doesn't sound English (the country, not the language) so that can't be it.

          If the entire job is going to be complete at a time we will wait to the end to bill, even if it takes a few weeks. However if, because of the building schedule, we have to wait several weeks between visits we bill for any portion that is complete, as it is complete.

          If we were to charge any down payments (other than the down payment for scheduling, that is included on the quote), draws for material purchase, or any other money for work that wasn't complete and ready to be inspected we would have to put that upfront on our quotes. Since we usually only invoice for portions that are complete and inspected, leaving the building ready for the next trade/part of the project/homeowner to live in we can bill as we go without having anything like that on the quote. Although some people request their quote be broken down before they approve it and we can send them that, we just don't like to if we can help it.

          The exceptions to our billing would be if we have completed partial work and are pulled out for some reason - job site gets shut down by MOL or MNR, building inspector doesn't accept changes to written plans or for some reason puts stop work order on. Those can go on for months or years, we bill material + labour + 12% (essentially cost) of work done to date, regardless of how much of the quote is complete or how much of a percent of the quote that is (as long as its less than 100%).
          Pain and suffering are inevitable...misery is optional.

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          • #6
            NC said that the job was quoted for two crews, at two different times. I don't know if it's just because I've been around this stuff a lot, but two invoices would be expected unless otherwise agreed. The idea of not getting billed anything until the job is done, is just not how construction generally works around here.

            At the roofing co. we got at least half up front. We haven't needed to put a lien on a home, but it is in the paperwork that we can if necessary. But some people wouldn't care about a lien if they are not planning to sell the house. The scary thing is that some roofing vendors will actually send an "intent to lien" to the customer! So, it's not an actual lien. It's just a document saying that if the roofing company doesn't pay for the materials, the roofing vendor (for example, Convoy) will put a lien on the home. We have had vendors send these and we were current with our account. But they can send them out as long as the material has been delivered. It completely freaks out the homeowners, and is totally unnecessary. At least that's how we feel. Thankfully, my parent's company has a very solid history of payments, and only one place is still doing this. It's a small-ish metal roofing company, and they only do it if the job is very large. We did a job that was 100 sq, and they sent an intent to lien to that customer. I believe in that case we preemptively sent over a lien release form, which (I think) meant that if we (the roofing company) didn't pay the roofing vendor, the vendor could not put a lien on the customer's home.

            TL;DR Liens are annoying.
            Last edited by notalwaysright; 12-13-2015, 08:28 PM.
            Replace anger management with stupidity management.

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            • #7
              Lien on me...my house is gone...so are my friends...how will I carry on?
              "If we refund your money, give you a free replacement and shoot the manager, then will you be happy?" - sign seen in a restaurant

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              • #8
                My husband owns a construction company, he doesn't start work until he has half the payment up front. Too many people like to scam and/or not pay.

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                • #9
                  Sounds like he is going to have a problem paying AT ALL. I wouldn't even contract someone to do a job like this for me unless I already had the ALL the money.
                  When you start at zero, everything's progress.

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                  • #10
                    Progress billing - do it all the time. Bill for the material received, shop drawings and job startup with the material stored upstairs in job stock. The prime contractor, owner or electricals are welcome to come look at the material or we can deliver it to the job site where they better have a secure storage place. Any material delivered that later grow legs are charged for the replacements. Later billings are labor and further materials used on the job.
                    Figers are vicious I tell ya. They crawl up your leg and steal your belly button lint.

                    I'm a case study.

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                    • #11
                      As Cia said -- Progress Billing is standard practice in the US, especially for larger jobs, or ones where there is an (unspoken) suspicion that the contractor might not get paid otherwise. As long as it's well-documented in advance and meticulously followed as the job goes, it's perfectly legal here.
                      Quoth CrazedClerkthe2nd View Post
                      Lien on me...my house is gone...so are my friends...how will I carry on?
                      (Lien on me) For....It won't be long...'fore I'm gonna need...Some walls to lieeeen oooon~
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                      • #12
                        After doing accounting for a commercial and government construction company for 3 years I know progressive billings very well.

                        There is also a wonderful protection for the client and general contractor with billings. Retainage! it allows me to withhold a certain amount set by the state until the project is complete to the clients satisfaction. In Tennessee its 5% and I love any contractor we use that includes the Schedule of Values showing the current amount of work being billed for.

                        It gives my company as the general contractor and the client leverage to make us or a sub come back to the job site and either finish their work or risk not getting that 5% back.

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                        • #13
                          Hell, I'd worry about a company that didn't progress bill or escrow or something when there're significant sums of money involved.

                          (lien on me) when you're not strong, I'll be your support, I'll help you carry on...
                          for it won't be long, till I'm gonna need, somebody to lien on.
                          (and if I don't find it, we'll suffer progressive collapse.)
                          Seshat's self-help guide:
                          1. Would you rather be right, or get the result you want?
                          2. If you're consistently getting results you don't want, change what you do.
                          3. Deal with the situation you have now, however it occurred.
                          4. Accept the consequences of your decisions.

                          "All I want is a pretty girl, a decent meal, and the right to shoot lightning at fools." - Anders, Dragon Age.

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                          • #14
                            Quoth evilfarmer View Post
                            After doing accounting for a commercial and government construction company for 3 years I know progressive billings very well.

                            There is also a wonderful protection for the client and general contractor with billings. Retainage! it allows me to withhold a certain amount set by the state until the project is complete to the clients satisfaction. In Tennessee its 5% and I love any contractor we use that includes the Schedule of Values showing the current amount of work being billed for.

                            It gives my company as the general contractor and the client leverage to make us or a sub come back to the job site and either finish their work or risk not getting that 5% back.
                            10% retainage is the norm in South Dakota.
                            Figers are vicious I tell ya. They crawl up your leg and steal your belly button lint.

                            I'm a case study.

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