Advice sought on jealousy

[Automan Empire]

I'm going to throw out an emotionally neutral business perspective.

The shots are tasteful and well composed. He looks like a great photographer, and you should consider how fortunate he is to have paying jobs in such a highly competitive and saturated field.

Other posters have covered the emotional aspects of this well. I've got another perspective that may or may not apply.

When you find your emotions intrude this intensely, in a manner that is at odds with the well-considered logical reality of the situation, this is an important sign! Take the opportunity to look within yourself, and figure out why your subconscious (reptilian) brain's emotional response may have been way inappropriate for the reality. You may need a psychologist's assistance, and you may uncover an event or events from your past that underlies the reaction. Left undiscovered and unexplored, it is liable to pop out of the woodwork at random times, and bring fighting, tears, and chaos to a stable, happy relationship, without cause or warning. This is unfair to one's partner and anyone else affected by such episodes.

My own life has been impacted by unaddressed jealosies, and the partner allowed the relationship to dissolve, rather than face her own past and its influence. It is sad to live through a screaming match where your partner (a woman in her 50s) isn't addressing you at all, but rather her blended family who viewed her as the living embodiment of the destruction of their own family, and her father who abandoned them all when she was 12. All things that happened decades ago and had nothing to do with me, yet I was punished for them, ongoing.

Humans have the capacity to have their automatic reactions programmed for life by events such as this; they also have the capacity for introspection to discover, face, and conquer them, for a better future.

************
If the person actually ISN'T trustworthy, the above is void of course. Punishment for one's own ACTUAL transgressions should be swift and certain.

[protege]

Of course he's defensive... you are in a roudabout way accusing him of doing something wrong and telling him that you do not trust him (my husband would be so hurt if I did that to him). It's not a matter of stopping the photo shoots, it's a matter of trust. If you actually did trust him, you wouldn't be so jealous because you would know that you have him and no one else will.

If I was accused of doing something...I too would be pissed. And yes, I had to deal with a jealous girlfriend in college. Nearly all of it was because of trust issues, and after having her flip out on me in front of friends, I dumped her ass.

Back then, I had quite a few female friends. Some of them I'd known for years. Others, I'd met in class, the service fraternity, computer lab, friends of friends, or I knew their significant other, or relative. Nearly all of them had one thing in common. We were friends...probably because I didn't hit on them 24/7.

Anyway, the jealous-soon-to-be-ex blew up at me after I helped a mutual friend move into a different dorm. We made a few trips using both of our cars, and were relaxing in the lounge (with a few other people--the girls across the hall, and a couple dudes who were playing pool), when the GF came in. Seems she had seen my car sitting outside the dorm for hours, and was pissed. So I got to hear about what an "asshole" I was. OK, fine, whatever.

That's not what killed it. No, that came after Christmas break. Due to bad weather, my return was delayed by several hours. Seems that Psycho had decided to sit outside my dorm's parking lot and wait for me. All damn day, in fact, only leaving when it got dark. I pulled in, unloaded the car, then walked across campus to the mail room. Anyone want to guess who was following me? Seems Psycho had been hiding in the shadows The next morning, she accused me of cheating on her. I tried to tell her that the roads were bad, I had problems with the car, but to no avail. Nope, it was because I found someone else. Tired of her behavior (the stalking, the constant accusations, the constant need to defend myself), I dumped her ass.

...and now that I've bored everyone to tears, the point is this. Jealously isn't a good thing. It's rather destructive, in fact. But, I have to give props to the OP in recognizing the issue, and is trying to do something about it. That's half the battle right there, folks.

[blas]

I agree with protege. I hate being accused, because I'm really used to it. And I cannot tolerate people who are on such a level, like complaining about me clicking "like" on a picture of Luke Bryan or working with mostly guys or daring to want a girls night.

Then again, though, I guess I can be a hypocrite, because I can get a tad jealous, usually when I'm dating a guy that's above average looking or has a lot of female friends. Although, everyone gets a fair chance before I even begin to act like a crazy jealous white girl.

[Librarian]

Clarifying some things:
He does NOT do this as a job. It's a hobby. A hobby he's spent at least a few thousand euros on (cameras, lenses, lightboxes, backgrounds....) He doesn't get paid for it, neither do the models. He does it because he likes it and *might* make money off of it in the future, but that's only secondary. He has a fulltime job and does this in his spare time - cutting into the time we have together even though he often tries to plan it while i'm at work or have an afternoon planned with non-mutual friends.
The models do it for free to build up a portfolio to go to a modelling agency later on. Or just because they like it/want nice pics of themselves/whatever.

He has female friends, i have male friends, we don't care. I don't mind him spending time with friends of either sex - i'm not that kind of a jealous type, though i can see how i've created that perception. I've gone on weekendholidays with a bunch of my friends (majority male) without him (he came once on one of those weekends, but got really bored because he didn't know anyone and i wanted to catch up with those friends - we usually only get together IRL once or so per year)

I have a question... why does it matter if he's sexually attracted to them so long as he doesn't do anything about it or comes to you instead to finish the job?

I really don't mind it if he gets off on other women in movies, porn, books, seeing them pass on the street. But when he's doing the shoots, he's in a position of control. He controls those women, how they should stand, what they should wear, how to pose, how to look... => that control coupled to a possible attraction is what triggers me mostly. Realising this is "work" and that there might not be attraction at all is helping

Oh, and i have told him i do trust him completely, and i know he wouldn't do anything with/to those girls, but *knowing* that isn't always enough to not *feel* jealous/negative about it. He actually understands that, but wants to continue the shoots anyway. Which is why i'm here trying to get other people's point of view and dealing with my own feelings - my brain is OK with it, my heart/gut still isn't completely (although as i've stated, this board and the long talks have helped a lot)
He actually never said he felt attacked by my feeling jealous -- he even once said it's normal, he'd be worried if i wasn't just a little bit - just as i understand he is a bit jealous of me going on weekends with mostly male friends but he trusts me back and doesn't try to stop me from goingAnd writing that made me re-realise that maybe i shouldn't try to stop him either

[mathnerd]

I don't think you've painted yourself as the jealous type. A true jealous type wouldn't have come to a large public forum and ask for different perspectives and help dealing with an emotion that was strong and surprising. Sometimes we have emotional reactions that don't make sense to our logical sides. Emotions by themselves are not bad. They just are. How you deal with those emotions can be good or bad. I think your reaction has been quite healthy.

The information about it just being a hobby/portfolio building at this point doesn't change what I wrote earlier about it being a "job". The working attitudes are still present in both the artist and the models. I also agree with the person who said the photos are fantastic. He's got a lot of talent, which is evident just through the two pictures I saw. Hopefully he can make a job out of it in the future!

[Tama]

Moirae -- his attraction to them creates an atmosphere where he could act on it. And OP would never know about it. It is about protecting her feelings.

[Seshat]

"Bast" my friend has done both lingerie and erotica/porn modelling. I go along, do her body makeup (not body-art, but powdering shiny spots, covering scars, etc); and gofer for her and the photographer.

Because I know Bast can move her body in ways most people don't think of, I might suggest a ribcage extension or a stretch that gives a slightly better line - even if the photographer has to say 'now', and shoot in the two seconds she can hold it!

I can assure you: for professionals like Bast, it's work and nothing but work. And having you (Librarian) present would be fine. Even more so if you did photographer's assistant work!

[Antares]

Of course he's defensive... you are in a roudabout way accusing him of doing something wrong and telling him that you do not trust him (my husband would be so hurt if I did that to him). It's not a matter of stopping the photo shoots, it's a matter of trust. If you actually did trust him, you wouldn't be so jealous because you would know that you have him and no one else will.

And it's not a matter of "choosing to spend his time with scantily clad women", it's a matter of "trying to make it in a tough business where sex sells".

I too would get defensive if I were accused of cheating whether in a roundabout or direct fashion.

Thank you all for the many replies.

Skarredmind:
Yep, that’s what he sais. He sees them as beautiful girls, but only as objects to be photographed. He claims while taking or working on the pics he’s not the least bit sexually attracted to them. Which for me was very hard to believe. Reading this from someone else, and the conversation mentioned in the first paragraph actually helped out the most of all to set the negative feelings aside. They’re not gone completely, but it’s helped enormously.


Edited to add one more thing: I think part of the negative feeling, and the reason i wanted to discuss this here is the following: Even with his normal shoots, i've have had to defend him and his actions towards most of my family and friends who see his facebook page/posts/photos. Common reactions have been: "Ooh watch out, don't put the cat with the milk" and "i wouldn't let my husband take pictures like that" - i also told him that i expect to have comments like that tonight again while he's gone to toilet/break/... (we are going out with friends who we haven't seen since the lingeriepics and that have been vocal about his shoots both with and without him in the room) and that it's very hard for me to defend him/shrug it off when i feel so negatively about it myself. Actually i do feel a lot more positive about tonight and what i'll reply to those friends.

When these people start to make comments like that dismiss them and ask "What did you think of the photos?" Tell them that you're proud of the work that he does and let them know that you're not going to tolerate any suggestion of impropriety between the subject and your husband. Show them that you trust him (even if you're jealous) and shut them down. I think you'll find that you'll feel better about it by taking control of the situation.

I did my first portrait session for someone I don't particularly like as a favor to her parents. The pics were 'okay,' but what I found was that I had a really good time doing it because I wasn't focused on her so much as trying to get the shots right.

The information about it just being a hobby/portfolio building at this point doesn't change what I wrote earlier about it being a "job". The working attitudes are still present in both the artist and the models. I also agree with the person who said the photos are fantastic. He's got a lot of talent, which is evident just through the two pictures I saw. Hopefully he can make a job out of it in the future!

This. I'm not a "professional." I've sold some things, got out of it and am getting back into it. Just because it is a 'hobby' doesn't mean you can't treat it like a job. Especially if you're hoping to make a living at it some day.

[Librarian]

When these people start to make comments like that dismiss them and ask "What did you think of the photos?" Tell them that you're proud of the work that he does and let them know that you're not going to tolerate any suggestion of impropriety between the subject and your husband. Show them that you trust him (even if you're jealous) and shut them down. I think you'll find that you'll feel better about it by taking control of the situation.

That's mostly what i've been doing up to now. And so far it has worked, it's just harder for me to say convincingly i like/support his work when i have mixed feelings about it myself. I never let it be any question of his fidelity towards me.

[Moirae]

Moirae -- his attraction to them creates an atmosphere where he could act on it. And OP would never know about it. It is about protecting her feelings.

My husband and I spent 6 years doing long distance. We met in 2001, got married in 2006 and I moved to the US in 2008. He could have acted on it too without me ever knowing. But I trust him. As far as I know, he never betrayed that trust. I choose to err on the side that he can be trusted. Above and beyond almost anyone on the planet, I know exactly how it feels when he has the opportunity and means. Mine did. For 6 years. That doesn't mean I shouldn't have trusted him. If I behaved that way, he and I wouldn't be together now.

Fear that he would cheat? Oh yes, that was there. We almost broke up about 9 months or so into the relationship because of the distance. It's very difficult in many ways to be so far apart.

But no relationship will survive that amount of doubt unless you're willing to set it aside for the sake of the relationship.

If he's done nothing to deserve the mistrust in any way, then there's no reason to mistrust him. Let me put it this way... if the significant other already thinks he's cheating and doesn't back off, he just might cheat because either way he's in trouble and his relationship is already on the rocks. If he does something truly suspicious (like my ex did with girls calling and hanging up, and girls phone numbers in his pockets, and lipstick on his shirt) that's the time to act and that's the time to boot his butt to the curb.

[Tama]

Blind trust is a bad idea. We are wired to cheat -- most cheaters are those who never thought they would do that.

It's a slippery slope best avoided.

[Librarian]

Blind trust is a bad idea. We are wired to cheat -- most cheaters are those who never thought they would do that.

It's a slippery slope best avoided.

Tama, thanks for trying to look out for me and in general. But i can't live my life thinking hubby could cheat on me any moment. In theory, yes he can. In theory i could be cheating on him any minute. As stated before, i have male friends, he has female friends. Should we just cut them out our lives? And for coworkers? i have male coworkers, one of which i have to spend a lot of time with, and he mostly has female coworkers: should we just change jobs then cause we could cheat with them? Now THAT'S a slippery slope i don't want to go onto. I trust him completely that he won't cheat on me with those girls.
My issue is that he's seeing a whole bit more of those girls than i'm comfortable with. And i've really come to see that as MY issue - not his - and it's something i can work out in time partly in thanks to the wonderful people on this board.

[Kheldarson]

Blind trust is a bad idea. We are wired to cheat -- most cheaters are those who never thought they would do that.

It's a slippery slope best avoided.

We're not wired to cheat. We're wired to look after our own self-interest, yes, but that's not being wired to cheat. It means that in the lack of maintaining some main feature in a relationship (usually sex or emotional connection), a partner may inadvertently find the missing piece outside of the marriage. And since we also like easy solutions over hard, some take that easy route. But not all do; some will go back and work on their relationship before taking that easy route.

[Moirae]

Blind trust is a bad idea. We are wired to cheat -- most cheaters are those who never thought they would do that.

It's a slippery slope best avoided.

I don't get your point. The trust isn't blind, but it also isn't nonexistent. You can't have a relationship with ANYONE (even friends and family) without having some trust in them that they won't stab you in the back.

How can you live your life without trust?

We're not wired to cheat. We're wired to look after our own self-interest, yes, but that's not being wired to cheat. It means that in the lack of maintaining some main feature in a relationship (usually sex or emotional connection), a partner may inadvertently find the missing piece outside of the marriage. And since we also like easy solutions over hard, some take that easy route. But not all do; some will go back and work on their relationship before taking that easy route.

Bingo. But even self interest isn't the only motivator in life.

[Kheldarson]

Bingo. But even self interest isn't the only motivator in life.

Indeed. But I didn't want to fully repeat my comment in the other thread. Empathy's another motivator, as is personal identity.