A/C Issues With My Car

[tropicsgoddess]

A little over a year ago I bought my car ('93 Honda Civic DX 4 Door) for $1400 on craigslist, ran like a champ and had A/C. About 2 months later I found out that the A/C went out. Since it was getting to the colder months of the year (I'm in South Florida) I left it alone for a while (plus I didn't have the money to fix it). I went to the auto parts store and was told that some older cars still are under the old A/C system and weren't converted to the new one (R-134a). Mine was under the old one (R-12) and also that I have to take it to a shop to fix it. We went to get some stuff at the auto parts store for SO's truck and while we were waiting to get rung up at the register, I found and then later bought the A/C pressure pen tester. SO's came out good. We found out that I had no freon in my A/C at all when he tried to put the pen on both sides (high and low). So he came to the conclusion that my car may have been leaking freon (possibly from the O rings or something like that). With the fact that I have no freon in my car, he thought that I could give it a shot with putting in some of the R-134a, though there is a possibility that it may temporarily work and then break down (along with my car still having the old oils in it and the like for the A/C system). Besides that I've also been pondering about if it's better having my A/C system converted to the R-134a system versus just fixing whatever is wrong with my current R-12 system. I just want a long term fix that will benefit me and my car in the long run. Tell me what you think is best.

[ParkingWitch]

When I had a issue with my car a/c we had the shop estimate the cost each way, and found that replacing the R12 would be MORE expensive that having the conversion to R134 would have been. Ask around at the shops. Depending on what needs fixed, it may be better to go ahead and make the change.

[draggar]

But wouldn't the newer system help with fuel efficiency?

If you're in my neck of the woods (Coral Springs / Margate) try Kramer's for a quote (I think they're on Pine Island just north of McNab - just before the fire station).

My wife found a place here in North Lauderdale but I don't know if I trust them yet (and she refuses to go to Kramer's since a tow truck driver didn't like them (yeah, can you say kick backs?).

[tropicsgoddess]

But wouldn't the newer system help with fuel efficiency?

Dunno about the fuel efficiency part and the new A/C system. Though I can say that I do get pretty decent gas mileage with or without the A/C on (with my current R-12) in my car. From what I read, the R-134a freon is supposed to be more environmentally friendly.

[bookworm]

My husband is an HVAC guy, but not on cars - there's a big difference. However, be careful just putting in the R-134a in the R-12 unit. On residential units this can cause a problem. He always flushes the system completely when converting from one freon to another because they don't mix at all.

[SteeleDragon78]

retrofitting from r12 to r134a isnt all that hard, and all of the parts needed can be purchased without a refrigerant license. one thing to keep in mind is that if you are going to do it you must remove all the old oils from the system and fill with esther oil. if it has been leaking freon you will also need to pull a vaccuum on the system before charging. electric vacuum pumps are expensive, when i did my lincoln i bought an air powered one for about $40, but i have a pretty good compressor at the house. all told for what you want to do youre looking at roughly $180 in tools and refrigerant depending on the prices in your area. most shops that i checked at were around $400 here in OK. on the up side, when you need to recharge r134 systems there are a lot of diy fixes around

[blas]

If freon is legal to buy where you live, buy some and have a trusted friend/family member put it in for you.

Us unfortunate Wisconsinites have to either go to Minnesota to buy it or go to a shop and pay out the wazoo for a recharge.

Freon doesn't last forever. My dad's Toyota is to the point of needing a recharge almost every summer, but thankfully he doesn't have to pay for it.

[joe hx]

Be careful with going to shops to have the A/C converted. Some shop's version of changing the system is merely putting adapters on the connections and loading it with R-132a. This is something you could easily do yourself - especially since you know how to use the pressure pen thingy. In fact, it might work for awhile. Damage the system? Maybe. A full conversion involves changing some parts that might've gotten damaged anyways.

Also - did the A/C slowly go bad, or did it suddenly just stop? If it was slow, it's probably a leaking oring or connection. If sudden, there's probably a puncture in the lines somewhere.

Quick question to our Europe friends - I've heard you guys us CO2 as refrigerant. Do you?

[tropicsgoddess]

Be careful with going to shops to have the A/C converted. Some shop's version of changing the system is merely putting adapters on the connections and loading it with R-132a. This is something you could easily do yourself - especially since you know how to use the pressure pen thingy. In fact, it might work for awhile. Damage the system? Maybe. A full conversion involves changing some parts that might've gotten damaged anyways.

Also - did the A/C slowly go bad, or did it suddenly just stop? If it was slow, it's probably a leaking oring or connection. If sudden, there's probably a puncture in the lines somewhere.

Quick question to our Europe friends - I've heard you guys us CO2 as refrigerant. Do you?

SO did the pen thing. I am mechanically inept. I may have to look around and find a reputable shop for that. I called Pep Boys one day and they said they charge $100 and change for it. I told SO and he was saying that from the sound of it they would only take out the old liquid and put in the new stuff and nothing more. From what it seems like I would have to do a complete overhaul if I want to convert it. For my A/C it was sudden that it went bad on me.

[Imprl59]

Most places don't want to deal with R12 anymore, they just want to convert everything. Your car should work well with 134a with a minimum of work.

If the system failed suddenly and there is now no pressure in it then you know something is broken as opposed to a slow leak where it cools less and less until it stops cooling at all.

What will need to happen is someone will have to find the leak and replace whatever part broke. The sytem then needs to be flushed, the accumulator replaced, the expansion device replaced, vacuumed and then recharged.

It will probably only take them a few hours to fix it and depending on what piece broke I wouldn't expect to get out of there for less than $600. Most a/c places will give you a free estimate. The tricky part is finding someone you can trust.

I just had to have the compressor replaced and all the above stuff done on my car. I have the tools to do it all myself but the a/c shop did the whole job for the same amount I would have spent on the parts alone and I didnt have to get all dirty so that seemed a bargain to me.

[Rapscallion]

Quick question to our Europe friends - I've heard you guys us CO2 as refrigerant. Do you?

Er, not in the refridgeration pipes. We have the R gasses same as you. My place distributes chilled goods and we use dry ice cabinets. Those have a tray to keep dry ice in the top - frozen CO2 - and that's a passive cooling system, but it's not widely available.

Yes, I get to prat about with it.

Rapscallion

[wolfie]

R134 systems operate at higher pressures than R12 systems - when an R12 system is converted, it tends to be less efficient than before (i.e. doesn't cool as well). I believe it's now illegal to recharge systems with R12, so that's no longer an option. There are some hydrocarbon-based refrigerants (basically, a highly-purified propane mixture) which are direct replacements for R12 - these are legal, but you'd want to get the system leak-checked and evacuated, rather than just topping up.

[joe hx]

I believe it's now illegal to recharge systems with R12, so that's no longer an option.

I'm pretty sure it's still legal to do that. It's just illegal to manufacture it or import it. So basically you have to use what supply is left, which is why it's so expensive.

[Imprl59]

It is still legal to use R12, it is just very hard to find anyone who wants to deal with it anymore. It's not even expensive now though it was for several years. You can get it for around $13 a can off ebay right now (but you need a license to buy it). Last time I bought 134a it was about that much.

The OPs car had a really well designed A/C system in it so I imagine they will do fine with the 134. Stay away from the blended stuff like Freeze12 as the different components leak at different rates so you can't top up the system, it has to be evacuated and refilled. Also it is more difficult to find a shop to work with them than it is R12.

Also stay away from the propane based refrigerants in a car. Imagine getting hit in the front and letting loose 1.5lbs of flammable gas. Not me!