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  • #31
    I think Abrams understands hope better than you give him credit for. Yes, Vulcan was destroyed, but the Vulcans are hardly homeless refugees, they immediately began building a new home and by what limited accounts we get appear to be thriving. They are a people who have every reason to give up, yet continue to struggle to better themselves.
    As far as the goodness of humanity, I think the climax of the first JJ Abrams Star Trek portrays it best in Kirk. Kirk has Nero cornered and helpless and would like nothing more than to blast him into oblivion, but he stops himself and offers to save Nero and show him compassion. It is Nero who refuses his offer of help, and while Kirk getting some satisfaction out of killing him isn't pretty, he is doing it as a last resort because Nero has made it clear that as long as he lives, he will not give up his vendetta. Oh, and the war with Romulas? Notice how that is conspicuously missing? It may not be explicitly shown on screen, but Nero declared war on the Federation on behalf of the Romulan Empire, destroying a planet in the process. The Federation clearly worked out a peaceful solution other than all out war, despite having it declared upon them.
    Into Darkness shows the same decency and compassion at the end. Spock, Kirk, Starfleet command, any number of people could have very easily said kill the 72 genetically modified soldiers and be done with it, yet none of them did, hell, Spock even went out of his way to ensure their safety at a time when he couldn't ensure his own. Into Darkness did not paint a very flattering picture of Starfleet, with Admiral Marcus's obsession with war with the Klingons, but it makes an important point that the original Star Trek didn't fail to recognize, that sometimes the greatest challenge is to face the evil within ourselves (this was addressed on multiple occasions in TNG and was the main theme of two of the TNG movies). Even then, when Kirk faces Marcus, Marcus is a traitor, he would be well within his rights to shoot to kill, but he doesn't, he doesn't even stun him, he gives him the opportunity to surrender with dignity to save face in front of his daughter. Even with John Harris, Marcus gives Kirk an order to kill him without warning, an order he disregards because he knows it isn't the right thing to do. When all is said and done, a large swath of San Francisco has been destroyed, they do not go on a witch hunt to punish anyone and everyone they could, they instead focus on rebuilding and making themselves stronger.
    Abrams definitely is no Gene Rodenberry, and to be honest, I'm glad for it. If I wanted to watch the Gene Rodenberry Star Trek, all I'd have to do is take one of the DVDs off of my movie rack and pop it in the player. Abrams hasn't lost touch of the sense of hope and goodness that Star Trek is supposed to be about, he just does it more subtly.
    And as a side note, Star Trek only twice explored the issue of homosexuality. Once was through asexual beings made of energy that just happened to inhabit two women, and it was explicitly stated multiple times, this isn't really homosexuality because the consciousnesses aren't really male or female. The other one was a thinly veiled look at the treatment of AIDS victims by creating a parallel disease to it that is spread through mind melding. In both cases it was done in such a roundabout way that they could always claim it wasn't really about homosexuality. This was over the objections of the actors and crew, who almost unanimously felt that there should be recurring LGBT characters in the series. Hell, Gates McFadden was damned near fired from the show because of an episode where she was supposed to give a birds and the bees talk and she refused to say the lines that Rick Berman had given her and chose instead to make up her own lines that were more inclusive of those of different orientations... which Berman later edited to make it appear looked like she was being more generic in deference to the species that have no gender. Seriously, there are more gay people in Achmindenijobs' Iran than in Berman's Star Trek. JJ Abrams may not have included LGBT characters yet, but at least he hasn't actively gone out of his way to make sure that they don't appear in his movies.
    If you wish to find meaning, listen to the music not the song

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    • #32
      Quoth Moirae View Post
      Yes, I feel that he has butchered everything that Star Trek stands for. It used to be about hope.
      It's still about hope.

      But it's more rooted in reality.

      Utopian futures are nice. They're bright and sunny and give us an ideal to strive for and say, yeah, we might be able to do that. Someday. Maybe.

      This Trek is showing us that it is possible to reach that Utopian future by showing us the struggle to get there. That's powerful in and of itself. We have a charismatic captain who has to learn how to use his abilities for the better of all, an coldly distant alien who's learning how to feel, and a whole crew who tries to do what's right, even when it might cost them something dear or even when they know they just made the wrong choice recently.

      Seeing others overcome their failings is just as hopeful as seeing the perfect future. I'd argue more so, in fact.

      But, ultimately, older Trek fans aren't the core target audience either. Original Star Trek bores me. Always has. I like the new Trek. It's fun, well-paced, gives an emotional punch. I can relate better to the characters. That's what Abrams new franchise is really about: bringing in a new audience.
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      • #33
        What smileyeagle said, and also, concerning the Federation/Starfleet/Earth's lack of a witch-hunt after the crash in San Francisco--

        Kirk even says in his memorial speech that they should strive to rise above this, to not regress and become worse because of it.

        Furthermore, going back to the beginning of the movie, when Kirk and Spock were getting called into Pike's office, what was Kirk hoping for?

        The five-year mission to explore space. That's what Kirk is there to do: he wants to explore the stars.

        As for Starfleet's more militaristic bent in the reboot movies, consider the opening act of the first one. The Kelvin (Kirk's father's ship) is destroyed, out of the blue, by a Romulan ship, unprovoked. That ship then disappeared for a couple of decades. The Starfleet admiralty (of which the warmongering Marcus was a key member) no doubt would have argued for their ships to be better able to defend themselves.

        When it turned out that the attack on the Kelvin, the destruction of Vulcan, and the attack on Earth were the result of a completely rogue element, it must have stuck in the craw of the hawkish members of the Starfleet brass. Marcus just decided "fuck it, if we won't go to war, I'll just manufacture one." Thus, he finds Harrison, forces him to design weapons and the Vengeance, and then uses Harrison's attack and escape to Kronos as the perfect excuse to trigger the war he wants.

        The only thing I found poorly written was Marcus' reasons for wanting a war. Arming up in case the Klingons decide "hey, we like the look of that star system of yours, we'll take it," that's one thing. But arming up, then deciding, "The Klingons aren't aggressive enough, let's poke the hornet's nest?" That doesn't make sense. Why was Marcus so eager for a war?
        PWNADE(TM) - Serve up a glass today! | PWNZER - An act of pwnage so awesome, it's like the victim got hit by a tank.

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        • #34
          Quoth Jay 2K Winger View Post
          That doesn't make sense. Why was Marcus so eager for a war?
          Because some people want to be the "hero" without being really heroic. Which is why I thought that twist was neat.

          On the one hand, you've got Marcus who's manufacturing a quick easy way to get accolades and be in complete charge of everything.

          On the other, you have Kirk who gets appreciation and also derision for making his stands, but never seems to actively seek accolades (yes, he appreciates them and will ham it up), instead choosing to do what's right for being right.
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          • #35
            Kheldarson hits the nail on the head, this is a new Star Trek for a new generation. I had a realization a little bit ago that my niece will be going into junior high next year... and she has never lived in a country that wasn't at war. Yeah, I know, we have it cushy compared to where the war is actually being fought, and I don't fail to thank whatever deity will accept my thanks for blessing me with life in a country where fighting isn't taking place, but the reality is that it is still happening. Economic prosperity to her is the crazy rantings of her senile grandparents. It is now unusual for there to be days when there isn't news of some horrific crime. She lives in one of the most polluted counties in the country with little hope for improvement in the near future. To be blunt, the utopia of the original Star Trek would be insulting to her intelligence. Our younger generation knows that a utopia will never happen (hell, even a lot of older generations know the anecdote about how utopia is Greek or Latin, I don't remember which, for "does not exist"), but that doesn't mean that they don't dream of being able to try to strive for it anyway.
            If you wish to find meaning, listen to the music not the song

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            • #36
              Quoth smileyeagle1021 View Post
              ...utopia is Greek or Latin, I don't remember which, for "does not exist"...
              Reality offers dat-topia and dis-topia, with a Mafia-style default of dys.
              I am not an a**hole. I am a hemorrhoid. I irritate a**holes!
              Procrastination: Forward planning to insure there is something to do tomorrow.
              Derails threads faster than a pocket nuke.

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              • #37
                To be honest, I wouldn't say the original series was set in a utopia. Yes, earth had eliminated disease and poverty. But if there were no conflicts, there would have been no stories to tell. They just had to go off-planet to find them. It's been said that despite the Prime Directive, the Enterprise did an awful lot of "interfering" with native cultures. Again, if they hadn't---no stories.

                One thing to keep in mind is that the current series, AU though it is, deals with the Enterprise crew's younger days, things that happened before the stories told in the original series. Kirk is only in his 20's. In the orig series he was at least 32 (I recall his age being mentioned in one of the episodes then).

                Also, recall that at the beginning of "Into Darkness" Pike accuses Kirk of having taking no responsibility for his actions. Note that by the end of the movie, Kirk is decidedly taking full responsibility. So the character has begun to grow.

                Is there a lot of flash-bang now? Yes, because that's what audiences expect these days . I just went over a list of episodes from the original series, and I agree that they were a bit more cerebral (ok a lot more--some of them. Let's face it, right now they're still retooling old stories). I have hopes that if this movie series continues, they will dig into ideas and take a few intellectual risks. If done right, the movies can still be entertaining, while making you think, even if they have to sacrifice a few explosions in favor of brilliant ideas.
                Last edited by MoonCat; 05-24-2013, 02:02 AM. Reason: had wrong admiral's name
                When you start at zero, everything's progress.

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                • #38
                  What everyone above me said.

                  Also, I'd like to point out the Roddenberry influence in the movies ended after ST:The Motion Picture, because of the problems in the production of the film (it was intended as a pilot for a new series that didn't happen).

                  So the studios brought in Nicholas Meyer-see here-, who by the way also wrote Seven Percent Solution. Sherlock Holmes fans, read it.
                  He never was really into Star Trek (see in auto-bio), much like JJ, and boned up on it to do the movie.
                  He changed the uniforms, introduced more conflict, ramped up the pace. Heck, he even changed the bridge.
                  TMP bridge, best I could find, sorry. If you recall it was very bright, very sterile feeling.
                  Here it is in Khan. It's smaller, darker. Different feel. Watch the movies back to back. You'll see.
                  Here is JJ's bridge. It's almost as bright as TMP, but not as small as WoK.
                  Also remember that Spock was supposed to be killed off, but the studio backpedaled.
                  II and VI were intense, interesting, and fast paced.
                  --------------------------------------------

                  As for the changes to the timeline and how that affected the characters, well. During TOS Spock walked a line between his human and Vulcan heritage, always had issues with Sarek too. He wasn't a cold fish, he showed emotion. Just never as much as Kirk. When he thinks he killed Kirk in Amok Time he is overjoyed that Kirk did not die. He's even shown in joying in laughter a few times (IIRC). It's not until TMP that it shows Spock attempting to pursue a pure Vulcan path.

                  Nero destroying Vulcan would alter Spock enough one way or the other. Why destroy Vulcan? It fits with Nero, and Romulans in general. So if someone were to go back to Prime timeline, Romulus would be destroyed. Also it changes the timeline enough to shake things up. Remember, Spock is something of a study of duality. And I like to think that since Nimoy was involved he was on board with the whole thing.

                  Don't think about it in terms of them changing things, look at the step by step progression. Ok, some of it's weak, but there's been some weak plot in Star Trek before.
                  ---------------------------
                  I re-watched ST (2009) the other day. I caught somethign that I didn't catch before. Scotty mentioned Archer and his Beagle, from ENT. Never picked up on that before. Funny.
                  ----------------
                  One more thing. Has anyone ever complained about ST:GEN re-using the torpedo scene from VI? Ever? I wasn't on the internet back then, but I don't remember people complaining.
                  -------------------

                  ETA: I'm not really comparing this to the actual TOS, because movies and TV shows need to have a different pace and feel. TOS is cannon, but a TV show and a movie are apples and oranges. You're harkening for the TV show. Hopefully they'll make another one. Who knows?
                  I know, this is from wiki, but I can't stand IGNs website. It's too damn busy. Notable TOS. These episodes have a good mix of action, humor, mystery, and drama. I've always, always that action is very much a part of Trek. It's just that back then effects artists couldn't do what we can do now,so shots of ships cursing through space were limited.
                  Back in the 60's the writers (when they made parallels) drew it out for the audience ("Blah, blah, this is like in the 20th century when"). I don't think the audience needs that level of hand holding anymore.
                  Last edited by violiavampyr; 05-23-2013, 04:36 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Sad to say, we live in age of reboots, remakes and a terrible dearth of originality in films.

                    If you don't like it, don't watch it. Personally I really didn't like the Trek 2009 movie, but was convinced to see Into Darkness by a friend.

                    I have never watched Highland 2 though. I love the first film, and know the sequel is nothing like it and so did not watch it and will not watch it.

                    And going back to Trek, the first new movie is still less of a travesty than Nemesis. Or Spock's Brain.
                    "I can tell her you're all tied up in the projection room." Sunset Boulevard.

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