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Put my phone back the way it was!

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  • #16
    Quoth wolfie View Post
    My understanding of the OP is that the updates being "pushed out" means that they are auto-installed through the network, whether the user wants them or not.

    IMNSHO, this is a security breach (in that the wireless carrier allows unauthorized changes to the operating system on the customer's phone). If the update disables a feature which the customer had been using, then the carrier has allowed their system to be used to install malware on the customer's phone. The carrier has shown that their network was not secure (otherwise the malware wouldn't have been installed), violating the implied warranty of merchantibility on their services.
    SAlas, unles you'vre got a contract that *specifically* says otherwise, *no* software has an "implied warranty of merchantibility". Far too many court cases (based on the standard "shrink wrap licenses" say so.

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    • #17
      When I told my husband my phone had just installed Kitkat, I got asked if he could stay home the next day and he muttered something about "tech-illiterate fossils that shouldn't have anything more difficult than a stone and chisel.. at least they'd likely kill themselves with those."

      Yep, he got all sorts of calls about, "Things have changed and I don't like change!" or, "Now it's too complicated!!!" Ummm... why the hell did you get a phone smarter than you, then?
      If I make no sense, I apologize. I'm constantly interrupted by an actual toddler.

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      • #18
        Quoth wolfie View Post
        IMNSHO, this is a security breach (in that the wireless carrier allows unauthorized changes to the operating system on the customer's phone). If the update disables a feature which the customer had been using, then the carrier has allowed their system to be used to install malware on the customer's phone. The carrier has shown that their network was not secure (otherwise the malware wouldn't have been installed), violating the implied warranty of merchantibility on their services.
        erm, nope. unless you're arguing SC law 101.(I didn't read the contract so it doesn't apply to me)

        Malware is specifically defined as "computer programs designed to infiltrate and damage computers without the users consent."

        from the terms and conditions of my carrier(similar language in other t&c's)

        At times we may remotely change software, systems, applications, features or programming on your Device without notice to address security, safety or other issues that impact our network or your Device. These changes will modify your Device and may affect or erase data you have stored on your Device, the way you have programmed your Device, or the way you use your Device. We may offer you changes to systems, applications, features or programming remotely to your Device; you will not be able to use your Device during the installation of the changes even for emergencies.
        So the user consented.
        Honestly.... the image of that in my head made me go "AWESOME!"..... and then I remembered I am terribly strange.-Red dazes

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        • #19
          Quoth BlaqueKatt View Post
          So the user consented.
          They had to have consented in order to download the software.

          Anytime my iPhone has an update, iTunes not only requires the phone to be connected via the combo usb charge/sync cable but a screen will pop up for the software update, which gives a description of the update and you have to CLICK I agree on it before it will install.

          I think people just don't pay attention to what they're clicking on b/c they're in too big of a hurry, which is sad b/c then when they update the phone and those are irreversible, they whine and cry over it.

          Their own fault IMO. Should've paid better attention.
          Human Resources - the adult version of "I'm telling Mom." - Agent Anthony "Tony" DiNozzo (NCIS)

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          • #20
            These changes will modify your Device and may affect or erase data you have stored on your Device, the way you have programmed your Device, or the way you use your Device. We may offer you changes to systems, applications, features or programming remotely to your Device; you will not be able to use your Device during the installation of the changes even for emergencies.
            Considering the fact that storing data is one of the main reasons people buy a smartphone instead of a "feature phone", this is basically "we'll do whatever we want to your device, including destroying its utility, and you have no say over the matter - pay up!". I've heard of smartphone apps that will store your proof of auto insurance, or paperless airline ticket - what happens if the wireless carrier wipes those out just before someone gets pulled over and the officer asks for proof of insurance, or they're about to board a connecting flight? There is case law of software vendors with "self-help" (remote disabling of the software in the event of non-payment of lease fees, rendering the customer's data unusable in the process) in the shrinkwrap agreement, and having this portion of the agreement thrown out by a court (customer won damages). Destroying someone's data on a smartphone as part of an automatic update would likely to be held to an even stricter standard, since the customer would have lost data WITHOUT first breaking a contract (as the rented software customers did, by witholding payment).

            As for the second bolded part, in some jurisdictions it's a specific criminal offense (i.e. can't be overridden by a contract) to disable a telecommunications device that someone is trying to use in an emergency (intended for cases of domestic violence, where the victim tries to call 911 and the batterer rips the phone off the wall). If it can be shown that the phone company did an auto-download that disabled the phone in an emergency, someone's going to jail.

            BTW, the definition of malware includes software that purports to be one thing (which the user consents to) but which actually do something else (which the user would NOT have consented to).
            Any fool can piss on the floor. It takes a talented SC to shit on the ceiling.

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            • #21
              Really, back-leveling should be an option. I've heard stories of customer's phones getting bricked due to an update they couldn't refuse, but the customer is in the never-never-land of being out of warranty but in contract.

              Comment


              • #22
                Quoth wolfie View Post
                As for the second bolded part, in some jurisdictions it's a specific criminal offense (i.e. can't be overridden by a contract) to disable a telecommunications device that someone is trying to use in an emergency (intended for cases of domestic violence, where the victim tries to call 911 and the batterer rips the phone off the wall). If it can be shown that the phone company did an auto-download that disabled the phone in an emergency, someone's going to jail.
                erm no, it doesn't "auto push" you have to click "accept" or "update later", and you are notified several times that the phone will be unusable, even for emergency calls, for the duration of the update (x minutes). Though you can have apps set to auto update(I never do)

                So really your argument is getting a tad strawmanish.

                I would also point out: phones can die or be damaged/stolen, so relying on them with no backup for insurance information or plane tickets isn't considered wise, there are usually other options. Heck the house locks that use your smartphone have backups.

                What if you drop your phone/spill your coffee/random accident while going to any of the things you mentioned, then who's to blame?
                Last edited by BlaqueKatt; 05-18-2014, 01:53 AM.
                Honestly.... the image of that in my head made me go "AWESOME!"..... and then I remembered I am terribly strange.-Red dazes

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                • #23
                  Quoth BlaqueKatt View Post
                  What if you drop your phone/spill your coffee/random accident while going to any of the things you mentioned, then who's to blame?
                  For the typical SC, when any of those things happen, it is obviously the fault of whoever, besides themselves, last did anything* to their phone (or computer).


                  *(updated, used, fixed, looked at, was in the same room as, etc.)
                  "I don't have to be petty. The Universe does that for me."

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                  • #24
                    Quoth BlaqueKatt View Post
                    erm no, it doesn't "auto push" you have to click "accept" or "update later", and you are notified several times that the phone will be unusable, even for emergency calls, for the duration of the update (x minutes).
                    Where's the "Hell no! I don't want this update, so go away and stop bothering me" button?
                    Any fool can piss on the floor. It takes a talented SC to shit on the ceiling.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Unfortunately they don't have one.

                      My tablet's been nagging me for months.
                      Supporting the idiots charged with protecting your personal information.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Quoth wolfie View Post
                        Considering the fact that storing data is one of the main reasons people buy a smartphone instead of a "feature phone", this is basically "we'll do whatever we want to your device, including destroying its utility, and you have no say over the matter - pay up!". I've heard of smartphone apps that will store your proof of auto insurance, or paperless airline ticket - what happens if the wireless carrier wipes those out just before someone gets pulled over and the officer asks for proof of insurance, or they're about to board a connecting flight?
                        The apps you're talking about don't store the info, they pull it up as needed. And, even if I deleted the app and its data, you'd be able to reinstall it and pull it right back up again in minutes.
                        "She didn't observe the cardinal rule: Don't F**K with people who handle your food"
                        -Ryan Reynolds in 'Waiting'

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                        • #27
                          Quoth otakuneko View Post
                          Unfortunately they don't have one.

                          My tablet's been nagging me for months.
                          And therein lies part of the problem. Your device will bug you again and again and again and again to install the update until you actually do it. As far as I know, there's no option to permanently disable those notifications so you can stick to your old software in peace if you choose to.

                          A lot of customers wind up doing the update simply because they are tired of seeing that blasted warning all the time.
                          "If we refund your money, give you a free replacement and shoot the manager, then will you be happy?" - sign seen in a restaurant

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                          • #28
                            Just like every other SC, it's just going to bug you until you do what it wants to get it to go away.

                            I did it because I was expecting some security updates with it. And the bonus benefit of telling some of my apps that no, they cannot do that on an individual app basis. Yeah, it changed the appearance of the GUI. Yes, I had to replace my calendar icon to make my calendar work. Yes, I had to turn off things I'd had off before. Just the price of updating...
                            If I make no sense, I apologize. I'm constantly interrupted by an actual toddler.

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