Tenant from Hell Question/Help **WARNING VERY VERY LONG!!!**

[fumblebee]

Thanks - I did check local laws and I can't find anything but I think 30 days should suffice.

When he moved in we did give him a laundry list of house rules etc. and went over what we will and will not tolerate.

His parents and grandparents are the worst. His father told him to withold rent one month because he claimed I wasn't feeding him.

His parents pay his rent. He just hands me the cheque on the first of the month.

Ugh. I mostly needed to vent because hubby is a "bury your head in the sand" type of person and figures if he doesn't see it and it doesn't bother him, then it is ok.

The Boy doesn't work for hubby - he doesn't work at all (although I found out his family thinks he is working)

I swear it feels like this past year I got married, moved house and I feel like I suddenly have an 18 (now 19) year old step son who treats me as such. I swear there have been times I have heard him mutter "you're not my mother"

GAH!

Thank you all for the help! I will keep digging through ontario tenancy laws to see what I can find. Might ask my cousin if she knows anyone who might specialise in this type of thing (she's a newly minted lawyer - so some of her friends from school might be in this line)

As for locking up the food: that is basically what we have done. we keep the bare minimum in the house now, which means we don't get to take advantage of some really good sales because we can't keep certain things locked away (ie freezer items) Most of the cereal is actually hiding upstairs in the closet in my office. Actually, my office closet has become a bit of a secondary pantry. There are crackers, breadsticks, homemade jams, tinned fruit, pudding cups, soup and pasta. I will keep some things downstairs but I ration it out.

We learned the hard way- if you buy a case of pudding cups (24 cups!) and leave it in the kitchen, it won't make it 3 days. That is just gross.

[fumblebee]

I have no problem with guests. I have a problem with the frequency and the fact that he leaves them in the house when he goes to school.

I came down for breakfast one morning to find 4 pairs of shoes at my front door that didn't belong to anyone living here. There was a stack of dishes a mile high and some kid in my living room complaining that we didn't have bread for toast. I didn't even know who this kid was.

I blame myself for letting it spiral out of control. I couldn't come down on him like he was my child - because he's not. But I took a step back and thought about how I would react if this was someone my age doing similar things.

[Andara Bledin]

Ugh. I mostly needed to vent because hubby is a "bury your head in the sand" type of person and figures if he doesn't see it and it doesn't bother him, then it is ok.

I used to have a boss like that. I managed to become a champion at passive-aggressive irritation-passing. Basically, when other people made my job more difficult, I'd turn around and make that irritation into an excuse for why I wasn't able to do what the boss wanted as fast, well, or at all.

I'm not saying that's necessarily a good way to deal with your husband, but you just might have to teach him the rule of unintended consequences.

I swear there have been times I have heard him mutter "you're not my mother"

That's totally the point where you answer, "Then stop acting like a child."

I will keep digging through ontario tenancy laws to see what I can find. Might ask my cousin if she knows anyone who might specialise in this type of thing.

This looks like the place to start for all things tenant rights in Ontario.

http://www.ontariotenants.ca/index.phtml

I have no problem with guests. I have a problem with the frequency and the fact that he leaves them in the house when he goes to school.

Oh, yeah. There should be zero tolerance for unattended guests. If he's not there, then his guests have to go. Period. No discussion.

I blame myself for letting it spiral out of control. I couldn't come down on him like he was my child - because he's not. But I took a step back and thought about how I would react if this was someone my age doing similar things.

I suspect part of it is that it's the child of a friend. Taking age out of the equation is a good step. You also might want to take another step back and stop thinking of him as someone you know and think of him as a stranger who answered an ad in the paper. There should be no reason to put up with stuff from the child of a friend you wouldn't put up with from someone you had no history with until they became a tenant.

^-.-^

[Eireann]

Here are my ideas:

First, check with the authorities on what your rights are, and what his rights are. Make sure you know full well what they are; get them in writing. Also, let the authorities know about the problems you're having, so they can let you know your options.

Once you know exactly where you stand legally, sit down with your husband and tell him that you're sick of this kid, and you're going to kick him out. Tell him that he (tenant) is causing problems not only for you, but for your relationship with your husband, which is true. That way, it won't sound like you're blaming your husband for anything. Maybe he feels that you hold him responsible for what is happening. Just let him know that your relationship is far more important to you than pleasing this kid's parents.

Change the locks while the kid's out.

Tell the kid that he's leaving. Give him the minimum notice, tell him that the authorities HAVE been notified, and that if any rent is withheld, you'll go after it. Don't let him turn it around on you. Cut him off if he tries to argue. Tell him the matter is not open to discussion. Let him know that his friends will not be coming over again, nor will band practice be held in your house. This in and of itself might motivate him to move out. He will only be able to get into the house if you let him in, so this won't be an idle threat. Let him know that you will only let him in if he's alone.

[It's me]

Since it's your house, not a second rental one, you likely need less reason to evict your "tenant". Usually needing the space for your own use is enough. You can probably just tell him you need the space for yourselves, and he needs to be out in 30 days.

On day 31 changes the locks.

[Jester]

I still say kick the fucker out tomorrow. You give a little shithead like this notice, only bad things will happen.

And my offer stands: pay for my plane ticket, and I will remove him With Prejudice. And put the fear of God into him faster than he can say "grab the bong, we've gotta go!"

Jester's Pest Removal Service: taking out the trash since 1995!

If, however, you are not ready to risk his parents screaming to the authorities (though he has no lease, and my guess is no receipts either for rent paid), or you really don't feel like buying me an airline ticket from Key West to there (and I cant' say I would blame you), it's time to Lay Down The Law for this little ingrate fucktard.

No band practice. Period.
No overnight guests. Period.
No uninvited dinner guests. Period.
No leaving unwashed dishes in the sink. Period.
No slacking on chores. Period.
If he doesn't like the food you cook for him, well then, time to start buying and/or making his own damn food. You are not his personal cook, you are his landlord. Period.

Because if he DOES do any of that shit, he HAS violated the Rules of the House you set down. In essence, he's violated the unwritten lease y'all have. Which means you can tell him to get the fuck out. And if he or his parents don't like it? Fuck them. And if they are friends of yours, they should be made to know what this little ass monkey has been doing (and not doing when it comes to not working). And if, once informed of all his shenanigans, they STILL give you shit, well, they are not really your friends, are they.

Yes, you did let it spiral out of control. That is your fault, but this pig's behavior is not. So retake control, and let him know that this is Your House and Your Rules. And if he doesn't like it, the door is THAT way.



Now, some people might say, "they can't tell him he can't have overnight guests." Yes. Yes they can. And here is why I say they are perfectly within their rights to do so:

I came down for breakfast one morning to find 4 pairs of shoes at my front door that didn't belong to anyone living here. There was a stack of dishes a mile high and some kid in my living room complaining that we didn't have bread for toast. I didn't even know who this kid was.

[Dips]

Now, some people might say, "they can't tell him he can't have overnight guests." Yes. Yes they can.

They sure can. He's a boarder not a tenant. People who take in boarders CAN restrict the number of guests and the hours guests are allowed in their house. You can also ban specific guests from your property if they don't respect your house rules.

It's your house and your rules. If he doesn't like the rules, he can seek other lodging.

If he disobeys the rules, kick him out.

[Jester]

Even tenants can be told such things. On many occasions in my life when I have been hunting for a new place to live, some would-be landlords would say that they would not allow this or that. Occasionally one of those things was overnight guests. Being a single guy, I would politely thank them for their time and move on, as I was not about to live in such a place. Also, a friend of mine recently moveout of a place that she dubbed "The Convent," which required tenants to sign a "morals clause" which included, among other things, that the tenants would not have overnight guests. Did that suck? Yes. But it was part of the rules, and everyone renting there knew it.

Now this idiot had to know that there would be rules here too, and just because they aren't in writing doesn't mean he can do whatever the fuck he pleases.

His parents or grandparents start giving you shit, ask them a few questions:
--Would they be fine with band practice going on in their home?
--Would they be fine with band practice going on in their office?
--Would they be fine with their son/grandson having multiple overnight guests that they didn't know in their house?
--Would they be fine being told what to make for dinner in their house?
--Would they be fine being told at the last minute that some random people were staying for dinner in their house?
--Would they be fine having someone dirty their kitchen or bathroom and never cleaning it in their house?
--Would they be fine with their son/grandson yelling at them or treating them disrespectfully in their house?

If they DARE say "Our Johnny would never do that!" simply tell them, in a very calm and factual tone, "That is precisely what he has been doing here. And if you wouldn't be fine with it in your house, why should I be fine with it in mine?"

[Pixilated]

I am going to slightly disagree with Pixilated on the last point.

Since there is no written lease, there is really no need to have the rules written down and signed. Your house, your rules. Simple as that.

I wonder whether his parents would appreciate his behavior, or if that is the way he treats them. It could go either way, them coming down like a sledgehammer on him for acting like that, or them asking, "What's the big deal?" or being angry that someone could question their special little angel. Hard to say, really.

Still say you should kick the littler fucker out, though.

My suggestions about written rules was only so that he couldn't claim he didn't know what was expected of him, or he forgot, or whatever. Since he sounds like a Very Speshul Snowflake I'm sure he'll use any excuse he can come up with. However, she said they had already given him a list of written rules, so ... obviously even that wasn't much help.

Doesn't sound as if his parents would be much help. It sounds as if they just take his word for what's going on there.

I have no problem with guests. I have a problem with the frequency and the fact that he leaves them in the house when he goes to school.

I came down for breakfast one morning to find 4 pairs of shoes at my front door that didn't belong to anyone living here. There was a stack of dishes a mile high and some kid in my living room complaining that we didn't have bread for toast. I didn't even know who this kid was.

I blame myself for letting it spiral out of control. I couldn't come down on him like he was my child - because he's not. But I took a step back and thought about how I would react if this was someone my age doing similar things.

Perhaps you did let it spiral but I have to say, your husband should have stepped in to back you up from the start. And I would be livid if somebody not only invited people in overnight but decided they could have the run of my place while "tenant" was at work or at school! And then to have them gripe because the place isn't up to their standards ... I'd have slung Mr. Entitled out on his butt with the information there's restaurants everywhere that have bread for toast and I'm sure the school cafeteria does too.

*snip*

Now, some people might say, "they can't tell him he can't have overnight guests." Yes. Yes they can. And here is why I say they are perfectly within their rights to do so:

Absolutely. It's their house. They can lay down any rules they like, from the sensible to the totally bizarre; if he doesn't like it, he's free to go live elsewhere.

Fumblebee, may I suggest you definitely get a bit of legal advice. The reason I say this is because I am currently living in my mother's house (she's in the hospital indefinitely) and my brother is PoA. We were working up a written tenant agreement and brother dug a bit into the Ontario tenancy laws. Although I am alone in the house, technically I am renting only one bedroom. And one thing my brother found is that the standard landlord/tenant laws do not apply in cases of 'shared dwellings' -- e.g. when tenants and landlords share areas such as kitchens, bathrooms, etc. He says basically what this means is that the landlord doesn't have the standard legal protection available under the Act ... but neither does the tenant. So it may be very possible you can turf this kid out on a moment's notice.

However, while I have a tremendous respect for my brother and his research skills, he's not a lawyer.

But if that's so, I'd do it that way, because I think Jester is right: you give him any kind of notice, then somebody better be home 24/7 or heaven knows what he'll do to "get even."

[PepperElf]

Withholding rent threats... Definitely talk to a lawyer.

This looks like the place to start for all things tenant rights in Ontario.
http://www.ontariotenants.ca/index.phtml

Good info there.

I agree, this sounds like it's more of a boarding house vs apartment.
This article from the site even points out that cooperation and compromise (social rules) are required due to the nature of boarding/rooming houses.

http://www.ontariotenants.ca/law/act01.phtml
Interesting though... Again talk to a lawyer but you might be exempt from the Act altogether.

5(i) - the Residential Tenancies Act doesn't apply when the occupant(s) are required to share a bathroom or kitchen facility with the owner [etc].



I hope this works out well for you!

[violiavampyr]

Fumblebee, actually since you are renting be sure and check your lease. Having this kid there for more than a couple of weeks may make you in violation of your lease. If that's the case (even if it's not) tell the kid and his parents that your landlord is threatening eviction if the kid isn't out by a certain date.

[depechemodefan]

I live in Tx where the law is on the landlord's side. Tenant doesn't pay rent? When they go in front of the judge for the eviction procedure, that automatically gets the tenant kicked out.

What I'm worried about is the damage the turd is doing to your house. I bet there are holes in the sheetrock in his room, and garbage piled high and pests. I bet the water has been running in the bathroom; I bet you have to replace the tub or toliet or sink or bath mirrors (or all 4) because he broke them. The sink might be stuffed-up because he put something down it that can't get out.

I imagine you are going to spend $1000s of dollars in repairs after he leaves.

[kpzra]

Fumblebee, actually since you are renting be sure and check your lease. Having this kid there for more than a couple of weeks may make you in violation of your lease. If that's the case (even if it's not) tell the kid and his parents that your landlord is threatening eviction if the kid isn't out by a certain date.

That's actually a very good point. He could cause YOU to lose your housing. Read your lease VERY carefully to see what it says about borders.

[PepperElf]

That's actually a very good point. He could cause YOU to loose your housing. Read your lease VERY carefully to see what it says about borders.

Ah... I thought this was their own home - as in a house they owned.


That may change things for the OP then, since this could affect their own lease.


I guess it may boil down to
- are they allowed to "sublet" rooms in their rented home
- would that "sublet tenant" therefore gain full tenant rights? or would he have to be placed on their own lease?


So you might not want just a lawyer, but ... a good long look at your own lease. I know some places don't allow this. It's more prevalent in apartment housing vs actual rented houses ... but it's best to review your own contract first to see if you have any restrictions on having "long term guests" over, or subletting rooms.

[depechemodefan]

So any updates?