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  • Keyboard Fun

    Okay, I'll admit it straight away: I'm a keyboard snob. I have a right to be - I'm a programmer, and therefore using a keyboard accurately is a fundamental part of my job.

    Most people won't spend more than €15 on a keyboard. In fact, most people won't buy a keyboard at all, but simply accept what comes with their computer. Many other people will deliberately go for the cheapest keyboard they can find because they spill coffee a lot or have a cat, so minimising replacement cost is important.

    I am careful not to spill my coffee, and I don't have a cat. I therefore am quite comfortable with owning and using keyboards that are old enough to be rebelling against their parents or even going out to the pub and buying drinks. Accordingly, I see nothing wrong with spending €70 on one which will last that long (often even if occasional coffee or cats are involved). In turn, I expect to get *exactly* the one I'm looking for.

    The local mega computer store carries precisely one PC-type keyboard with an English layout. It's on a multi-week back order, and it's a Microsoft "ergonomic" type. No thanks.

    They do also carry English versions of Apple keyboards, but I'm really not comfortable with the prospect of chiclets - which I thought had been thoroughly buried by the PCjr back in 1984. The Apple variant keyboards are also sufficiently different from the original IBM standard as to be awkward to use in Linux and Windows.

    A colleague suggested I talk to the IT guys to find out where they got theirs from. However, there is a distinct shortage of English keyboards even in our company, and there were no spare ones in IT. I gave that up as a lost cause - after all, I aleady use my very own IBM Model M (this is the one that's old enough to drink) at my workstation, even though it periodically resets itself due to overloading the USB adapter attached to it.

    I really should get around to building new USB controller boards for my Model Ms. Yes, I will have to hand-build them.

    Instead, I discovered that Amazon carry some of the keyboards that are still made and worth having - the Cherry G80 series, in particular - and they now deliver to Finland within their "Free Shipping" zone. It's still on back-order, but at least I can get it at a reasonable price.

    My existing G80, from 1996, has an AT connector which is especially difficult to attach a USB adapter to, and even then the USB converters have limitations which get annoying after a while (as proved by my much newer G84, which uses a lesser type of keyswitch) - but used natively, it is second only to the Model M. Modern versions of the G80 have a "universal" controller inside so they will work natively with both USB and PS/2 connectors, just like many mice these days.

    I also found a very interesting-looking miniature keyboard in the G84 range while I was looking. This has only 86 keys, but all 105 keys from a standard keyboard are available via a laptop-style Fn modifier. I decided to get one of these as well for use with an experimental box which happens to be very small itself. If I like it, I might just show it to our IT guys as a suggestion for use with our many hardware-related projects.

    As an aside, they also carry the relatively new Razer Black Widow keyboard. This uses the same keyswitches as the Cherry G80 - probably bought directly from Cherry - and while costing more than the G80, does have a few extra macro keys and the ability to disable the Windows key. What turned me off it, however, was the strange font they use on the keycaps, and the clearly deliberate de-emphasis of the symbols which I need for programming. If you're not a programmer, that might not matter to you as much as the availability of backlighting or the allegedly optimised-for-gaming key matrix.

    Just don't get me started on laptop keyboards.

  • #2
    http://www.cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/stellar.htm <-- Avant Stellar. It's the exact same keyboard as the Northgate Omnikey Ultras. Same design, same hardware. Brand new.

    At some point, I will be replacing my current Omnikey with one of these. Just not sure when I'll have the USD 190 for it.

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    • #3
      I also have a huge collection of keyboards! I spent ages finding the perfect keyboard.

      If you like the old IBM Model M keyboards, you can get a new one from Unicomp:
      http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/cus101usenon.html. I have one of them, and it is an awesome beast!

      A compact keyboard that is pretty good is the IBM SpaceSaver II, but I found that the keys start to stick and grab after a while. No idea why... I've had that happen with three of them across several revisions. Probably because they are supposed to live in a server enclosure and only get limited use. Nice keyboard otherwise, but sticking keys on a keyboard are a rather large show stopper!

      Now, I know you didn't want to discuss laptop keyboards... but right now I use the Lenovo usb trackpoint keyboard:
      http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/c...78400A33E7FE8A

      It is literally the same keyboard in the T410s etc, mounted in a standalone enclosure. I am extremely pleased with this keyboard (I own several - home, work, travel). The keys are easy to locate by touch, and have a good "snap" to them. I love having the trackpoint right there (at the moment I am sitting back with my feet up on the desk and I have full mouse control literally at my finger tips).
      There's no such thing as a stupid question... just stupid people.

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      • #4
        Ah, a whole group of people who recognize the glory and greatness that is the legendary Model M; the standard by which all other keyboards should be measured. Never surpassed; rarely equalled.

        But yes, if I have to type on a laptop keyboard for a long time, the IBM/Lenovo ThinkPad designed units are without question the best. The first time I saw one of the laptop-repurposed USB keyboards, it was while making a visit to a customer. The IBM Service Engineer on-site offered to order me one out of parts stock, but the system flagged it as a "Red Tag" part, meaning the "defective" one had to be sent back... I have a funny feeling there was a curiously high "replacement rate" on those units before it was Red Tagged.

        I have to say, I was never a fan of the lighter buckling-spring on the Northgates (I think I'm thinking about the right keyboard...) But I admit that typing on a Model M in a cube farm isn't possible, so my Model M has to stay at home.

        Comment


        • #5
          It is something I have been picked on for at work: I LOVE a keyboard that still makes a nice click sound with each key, everyone else here has laptops or laptop type keyboards that make no sound at all... it doesn't feel real to use one of those.
          Crono: sounds like the machine update became a clusterf*ck..
          pedersen: No. A clusterf*ck involves at least one pleasurable thing (the orgasm at the end).

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          • #6
            I love the click of a keyboard. I guess because despite being only 23, I learned to type on a REAL typewriter. Not electric, the kind with an ink ribbon and keys that got jammed if you weren't careful..
            it doesn't feel right typing on my laptop's integrated keyboard, with its silence and smooth barely-raised keys..
            edit: I also used to have one of those cherry g80 keyboards, I loved that thing. My grandma threw it away because it was "older than god"
            "If looks could really kill, my occupation would be staring" Brand New - I Will Play My Game Beneath The Spin Light

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            • #7
              Quoth Chromatix View Post
              As an aside, they also carry the relatively new Razer Black Widow keyboard. This uses the same keyswitches as the Cherry G80 - probably bought directly from Cherry - and while costing more than the G80, does have a few extra macro keys and the ability to disable the Windows key. What turned me off it, however, was the strange font they use on the keycaps, and the clearly deliberate de-emphasis of the symbols which I need for programming. If you're not a programmer, that might not matter to you as much as the availability of backlighting or the allegedly optimised-for-gaming key matrix.
              I picked up one of these recently for my personal machine at home... The letters rubbed off the WASD keys on my old keyboard. The new one works great!

              And as I sit here at work on an aged Microsoft erganomic keyboard, I think that I might need a new one here, but don't think that would be the right one for the office. Some of my clients might think that I spend my time playing games...

              Comment


              • #8
                I want to know why it's so difficult to find a basic, no frills, spring & click keyboard?

                I just want, well, the same sort of thing I'm typing on right now, which is an IBM KB-9910.

                Just the basic 104 keys, no ergonomics (I despise ergonomic keyboards), a standard attached keypad, and crisp tactile response. The crisp tactile response is vital to my typing speed. I don't care if it makes noise or not, but I have to be able to feel precisely when I've pressed the key hard enough for it to register.

                It's hard to find a decent quality keyboard that doesn't also cost an arm and a leg and also doesn't have a gajillion buttons I will never use. Oh, yeah, and is a basic rectangle shape. What's so difficult about a basic rectangular shape that so many keyboards have to be wavy or curved or otherwise take up more space than they actually require?

                ^-.-^
                Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden

                Comment


                • #9
                  I was recently in the market for a new keyboard due to the steelseries one I had wearing itself out. I looked around to see what was out there and really there are very few companies making decent keyboards. I do a lot of gaming on my PC so I was looking for something in that realm. Looked at the logitech keyboards out and almost went with them but decided to give the Razer Black Widow a shot. I'm pleased for the most part, although I kind of have the same issues as the OP with the strange font and the de-emphasis on symbols on the keys. The keys are backlit but only letters and numbers. So if you are playing in the dark (which I a lot, hence wanting the backlight) it can get annoying if you are trying to find a specific symbol.

                  It's a nice keyboard though and I'm pleased with the purchase. It's my first mechanical keyboard which takes a little getting used it. There is a very tactile feel to pressing keys and a destinct click so while different I find I can actually type easier and faster. I haven't messed with the macro keys yet but the Razer programming software is pretty easy to use in past experience. It is a little on the pricey side but in the end it was worth the purchase.

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                  • #10
                    I used to use Model Ms but then got a Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 and I'm now hooked on Topres. You guy should check out GeekHack. Good resource.

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                    • #11
                      Quoth Ravenzfire View Post
                      There is a very tactile feel to pressing keys and a destinct click so while different I find I can actually type easier and faster.
                      Exactly! With a good keyboard, you don't have to worry about mashing the keys quite so much.

                      I've got a fairly bleh Dell keyboard I picked up for $12 on my home computer, and there is no actual indication for when I've hit a key hard enough. However, the springs are so very light on it, that practically any pressure goes straight to the base, so it's moot. But it does give them a slightly mushy feel, which is a bit annoying.

                      ^-.-^
                      Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If you are looking for inexpensive but good keyboard, check out Value Village and similar used-stuff stores. I've managed to pickup three IBM M2 keyboards that way. The M2 is a lighter/smaller version of the Model M, but it does have buckling-spring keys.
                        http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index...parentcat/9245
                        There's no such thing as a stupid question... just stupid people.

                        Comment


                        • #13


                          I'm sorry, but for some of the pricing I've seen on those pages, those keyboards had better be able to punch holes in brick walls and still function. (okay, granted the Model M could do that, but some of those others are no where near that level. And yes, I've dealt with Cherry keyboards. Durable, but not solid enough to justify over $100 in my mind.)

                          Call me a n00b if you want, but I'm not about to spend that kind of money on a basic keyboard unless I can count it's longevity in decades. The click just isn't worth that kind of dough to me.
                          I AM the evil bastard!
                          A+ Certified IT Technician

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Cherry, heh. Their main business is arcade spec microswitches. I'm talking about the kind that goes in plastic foot sensors on games like Spider Stomp -- they take hundreds of Gs of force BY SPEC. If they can't make a nice keyboard, no one can.

                            I'm definitely firmly planted in the Model M camp. I have a Lexmark-made unit on my desk right now. This thing has fought walls -- and won.

                            I don't know if I'd pay much for one though. If you're in a position where you can pick at computer waste, you'll have a couple working Ms on hand after only a few months.

                            Gaming keyboards are 95% hype. Their "optimized layout" takes time to learn, and still leaves you behind the players with buckled-spring boards. The BlackWidow sounds like an exception, by the marketing materials, but I've never seen one in person.

                            (Actually, the BlackWidow is around the same pricepoint as Model M replicas and clones, so if you're a gamer and buying new, it's definitely something to seriously consider. But ask around for "old IBM" keyboards first, there's a good chance someone nearby has one they're willing to part with for cheap or free.)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Quoth roothorick View Post
                              Cherry, heh. Their main business is arcade spec microswitches. I'm talking about the kind that goes in plastic foot sensors on games like Spider Stomp -- they take hundreds of Gs of force BY SPEC. If they can't make a nice keyboard, no one can.
                              Then the keyboards I dealt with must have been their budget effort work. (did a series of IMAC work for a bank a couple of years ago and the cherry ones were barely functioning and only about a third of the ones we replaced. The others had died some time before we got there)
                              I AM the evil bastard!
                              A+ Certified IT Technician

                              Comment

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