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Mr. "No I will not show you my ID"...

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  • #16
    I remember having to call Visa once after a similar situation.

    I forget the whole details, but the call basically went like this:

    V: Thank you for calling Visa Merchant Care line, may I have your merch id?
    M: rattles off a series of numbers and letters.
    V: Ok, I've got you. What's the difficulty?
    M: Got a customer (she yells something aloud that even the poor Visa girl can hear) that's refusing ID.
    V: Have you checked the card's signature?
    M: Can't. It's cut off.
    V: What?
    M: Cut off. Looks like they took a razor to it.
    V: Ohkay...Did you ask for ID?
    M: Yes.
    V: And?
    M: Refused.
    V: Ok...Uh...hang on. (Gets put on hold)

    About this time, the lady starts this rant about "black helicopters" and how the govt is out to get you, and how she'll have my job if I don't complete this sale...you know the rant.
    V: Still there?
    M: Yeah. Not going anyplace soon. Whatcha got for me?
    V: Take the card and destroy it.
    M: WTF?
    V: We've notified the (city) police. They'll be there shortly. Take the card and destroy it. And, put her on the line.

    I handed the phone over, and walked into the office. With a nice snip, the card was destroyed, and after the police arrived; I learned something rather curious.


    Look at the back of any Visa or Credit type card. You'll see a fine print there that says that while you (the cardholder) carry the card, it's not yours to keep. At any time, the owner (visa or who ever) can revoke the card, request it taken, or,as in my case; order it destroyed on the spot.

    I never found out why they had me do it, but I suspect she'd been up to something. Especially for them to call the cops.
    Learn wisdom by the follies of others.

    Comment


    • #17
      Quoth CanadaGirl View Post
      Augh! Why don't these idiots understand that us asking for ID to verfiy their signature and name is to protect them from theft! At the liquor store I work at, we usually only check ID for large orders when a c/c card is used, because anyone with a stolen credit card won't just go and buy a $12 mickey.



      Unauthorized charges can be stopped by the cashier CHECKING FOR ID when you or the thief goes to pay for their purchase.
      The whole point behind CC is that Visa/MC have to swallow the loss if someone uses a stolen card. That's the deal they make with stores. In return the stores can't require customers to show ID to use the card. The merchant's only responsibility is to verify the signatures match.

      It's mindboggling that people still believe that if their CC is stolen and used, they are somehow on the hook.

      I never show ID. I'm not a SC about it. I just ask for a manager and invariably, he tells the clerk to go ahead with the transaction. Besides, once the card has been run and the purchase approved, then a sale has occurred. The merchandise is legally mine and I'll see the charge on my next statement. There's really nothing the store can do if I don't show ID. Refuse to allow me to sign the charge slip? If the store tries to keep the merchandise, I'm calling the cops. But that's never happened and probably never will. The store manager knows he can't require an ID no matter how much he talks about "store policy."

      That's why

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      • #18
        Why woulld someone not show ID? It seems enough people are against it that it makes me curious why someone woudn'.t.

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        • #19
          Quoth RecoveringKinkoid View Post
          Why woulld someone not show ID? It seems enough people are against it that it makes me curious why someone woudn'.t.
          I honestly couldn't tell ya why so many people gets all worked up about showing ID for any reason. Why bother to have an ID if you aren't going to use it when requested of you. I sign my cards, and write SEE ID on them as my signature changes almost daily. I don't see how it can hurt me. It's not like they are writing all the details of the ID down anywhere, most just make sure the names and faces match and I am on my way.
          The only words you said that I understood were "His", "Phone" and "Ya'll". The other 2 paragraphs worth was about as intelligible as a drunken Teletubby barkin' come on's at a Hooter's waitress.

          Comment


          • #20
            Quoth Auto View Post
            The whole point behind CC is that Visa/MC have to swallow the loss if someone uses a stolen card.
            Actually, not exactly. In most cases, the STORE swallows the loss, not Visa/MC.

            If a customer disputes a charge the CC company will withold the funds from the merchant unless the merchant can produce a signed slip which matches the signature on file at the CC company.

            If the signatures don't match or the merchant didn't get a signature, the merchant is SOL.

            If a card is stolen the customer has no liability at all for any fraudulent charges provided he reports the theft within 24 hours. Any merchants who didn't verify the signature or collect a signature will end up holding the bag.

            If the customer doesn't report a card theft until after 24 hours, he is only liable for a maximum of $50 of any fraudulent charges. That $50 will go to the CC company and the merchants will not see a dime of it.

            So the breakdown goes:

            CC company will not suffer any loss for a stolen card and may get a $50 gain.

            Customer may suffer up to a maximum of $50 loss.

            Merchant is out the goods and the money unless the thief is caught and pays restitution.

            If anybody needs to be extra super-duper careful about credit card transactions, it's the merchant.
            Last edited by Dips; 10-19-2006, 07:51 PM.
            The best karma is letting a jerk bash himself senseless on the wall of your polite indifference.

            The stupid is strong with this one.

            Comment


            • #21
              Just a quick note, but does anyone happen to know is it's "legal" to copy down driver's license numbers? There have been policies at stores I've worked at that if the sale was over a certain amount of money, the number had to be copied down. Not a big deal until the ONE time I forgot to do it (I had been there 2 weeks, but the AM acted like I had killed her baby because I forgot to do it) and when the AM noticed she asked the customer for her drivers license but the lady refused saying it was illegal. Just curious.

              Comment


              • #22
                Quoth Dips View Post
                Actually, not exactly. In most cases, the STORE swallows the loss, not Visa/MC.

                You're sort of right but not really. So let's review.

                Yes, if the customer disputes the charge, Visa/MC may force the merchant to eat the loss. But it depends on the reason there's a dispute. Let's ignore cases where the customers have issues about the quality of goods and service and talk only about stolen CC. (If I argue I didn't get what I paid for and therefore won't pay, VISA/MC may just take me at my word and reverse the charge without withholding funds from the merchant. It depends on the dollar amount in dispute. The second or third time I argue that, Visa/MC may just cancel my card. )

                Let's also ignore cases where the customer claims he doesn't have to pay because there's no signature. (Legally, it doesn't matter that customer didn't sign. The transaction doesn't need a signature to be valid and binding. Having him sign just makes it that much harder to argue he didn't buy what he in fact did buy. But there are enough morons out there that the system still asks for a signature.)

                If the merchant verified that the signatures match, then he's home free. It's Visa/MC's loss. That's the deal Visa/MC make with the merchant. In practice, even if most merchants don't verify signatures (no matter that they're supposed to), Visa/MC will still take them at their word and eat the loss.

                Retail's too competitive, the margins too small, for it to be any other way. The moment VISA/MC start withholding payments from a retailer is the moment the retailer stops accepting that card. The fees Visa/MC charge the merchant pays for the losses if the card is fraudulently used.

                As for customer's $50 liability. Only in principle. In practice, it's zero liability and that holds no matter when the customer reports the card stolen. My personal experience bears this out. I've had my card used by scammers when I still retained possession of the card (and didn't realized it had been used until weeks later) and I've never paid a penny of my $50 liability. It's routinely waived. In fact, I've never heard of anyone have any liability.
                Last edited by Ree; 10-23-2006, 10:28 AM. Reason: Excessive quoting

                Comment


                • #23
                  I see what you're getting at, but still don't see CC companies assuming liability they can pass off to the merchant. I'll clarify what I meant a bit.

                  I work at a company which accepts Visa/MC and the CC company has never paid us for product bought with a stolen credit card. Ever.

                  This is because the only recourse a merchant has is to produce a signed slip which matches the signature on file at the CC company. We take all of our orders over the phone. We don't ever have a signature. We end up eating the loss. Luckily it happens so rarely that it isn't a big issue for us.

                  I don't agree that Visa/MC would be afraid of losing our business. Why should they be? Even though we've been burned a few times, we make a great deal more by accepting MC and Visa than would would without them. We'd actually be out of business without them and they would go on just fine without us.

                  I agree that the $50 charge is almost never collected. In those rare cases where it is, though, the money goes to the CC company and they keep it.

                  I don't feel that this is inherently unfair or anything. It's just the way it is. Businesses have the means to protect themselves by verifying signatures and following proper procedure for an unsigned card. If they choose not to, they're the ones who lose out. Not the customer (who, we both agree, is very well protected). Not the CC company.

                  We're perfectly comforatable with the way this works because we can make sure software purchased with a stolen card can never be activated. It's very little loss to us.

                  Somebody who is selling plasma TVs is probably going to be much more careful. You can bet the CC company isn't going to eat a $4000 loss if the signature on the merchant's slip isn't an exact match with what they have on file.
                  Last edited by Dips; 10-20-2006, 03:19 PM. Reason: fix grammar
                  The best karma is letting a jerk bash himself senseless on the wall of your polite indifference.

                  The stupid is strong with this one.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Quoth chantal View Post
                    Just a quick note, but does anyone happen to know is it's "legal" to copy down driver's license numbers? There have been policies at stores I've worked at that if the sale was over a certain amount of money, the number had to be copied down. Not a big deal until the ONE time I forgot to do it (I had been there 2 weeks, but the AM acted like I had killed her baby because I forgot to do it) and when the AM noticed she asked the customer for her drivers license but the lady refused saying it was illegal. Just curious.
                    Was it a cash sale?
                    0 Coffee! Thou dost dispel all care, thou are the object of desire to the scholar. This is the beverage of the friends of God. -In Praise of Coffee, 1511

                    Daranacon - because we're not crazy enough

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                    • #25
                      depends on the location and the kind of number.

                      Here in georgia, until a few years ago, your dl number was the same number as your SSN. After some high profile cases where people's identies were stolen from their DL's, the state issued an edict saying that EVERYONE who renewed their liscense would recieve a random number in place of the SSN on the DL.

                      In our state, it's illegal to put the SSN on the check, but perfectly legal to put the DL. The reasoning (and we were taught to say this to the customers) when they complained was thus:


                      Sir or Madam, I have to require the number for security reasons. (Normally we'd stop there. However if they asked for clarification, this followed

                      Well, it works like this. Let's say someone goes out and steals your checks from your mailbox or whatever. Then, they come up here to buy something. Nine times out of ten, when asked to show ID they will. By writing this driver's liscense number down on the check, it means that I have witnessed the ID and verified it. Furthermore, should you the customer report the checks stolen or incurr fraudlent charges, this allows the police department to run the liscense number should the check be seized. Then, they can quickly track down the person who owns that liscense number. Further, by my initialling this, I agree at a future date to provide evidence or justification why I took the check. Meaning, that if the check comes back stolen, I've also had to make note of the liscense, look at the picture, compare it to the holder, and take the time for the number to be written. Also, this gives time for the security cameras to get a good picture. In the end, this small bit of time and ink could end up saving you a great deal of suffering in the future should your checks ever be stolen and written here.


                      While wordy, by the time I was done nearly EVERY customer was happy to hand over ID. Only one person got very fidgety on me, and it was later found that she had stolen the checks. Guess how they found her?
                      Learn wisdom by the follies of others.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Quoth repsac View Post
                        In our state, it's illegal to put the SSN on the check, but perfectly legal to put the DL.
                        Here in Australia we have a Tax File Number which is like the American SSN. This number is secret and it is common knowledge that NOBODY should EVER give this number to anyone unless it's bank or the Tax Office or to the HR dept of any new job you accept. This is so the govt can keep track of you come tax time.

                        I don't know of anyone here who even remembers their TFN off by heart, much less write it down as ID on cheques and stuff. That would be like asking a serial killer to kill you and handing him the knife!

                        I know my number and I'm always getting surprised comments from banks etc when I tell them I know it.
                        Last edited by Ree; 10-23-2006, 10:29 AM. Reason: Excessive quoting
                        This thing you call love, she smiles way too much

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                        • #27
                          Quoth repsac View Post
                          Well, it works like this. Let's say someone goes out and steals your checks from your mailbox or whatever. Then, they come up here to buy something. Nine times out of ten, when asked to show ID they will. By writing this driver's liscense number down on the check, it means that I have witnessed the ID and verified it. Furthermore, should you the customer report the checks stolen or incurr fraudlent charges, this allows the police department to run the liscense number should the check be seized. Then, they can quickly track down the person who owns that liscense number.
                          Um, stupid question here. If person A stole person B's checks, and tried to use them, why would they hand over their ID to have the ID number written down? It would be foolish for them to do so, as the name on the checks would not match the name on the ID! Then again, knowing how a lot of clerks don't actually look at such common sense things, this shouldn't surprise me. (No, I am not talking about present company.)

                          As for the whole ID thing, I don't know if I have ever been asked for ID for using my CC, but if I were, I would treat it the same way I treat getting asked for ID for alcohol purchases: If they ask for my ID, I'm getting my drink/purchase, and if they don't ask for my ID, I'm getting my drink/purchase. Either way, I am getting my damn drink/purchase!

                          "The Customer Is Always Right...But The Bartender Decides Who Is
                          Still A Customer."

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Quoth repsac View Post
                            Only one person got very fidgety on me, and it was later found that she had stolen the checks. Guess how they found her?
                            Bloodhounds?
                            Unseen but seeing
                            oh dear, now they're masquerading as sane-KiaKat
                            There isn't enough interpretive dance in the workplace these days-Irv
                            3rd shift needs love, too
                            RIP, mo bhrionglóid

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                            • #29
                              The state of Utah puts the SSN on DLs. I am never moving to Utah.
                              I'm bringing disdain back...with a vengeance.

                              Oh, and your tool box called...you got out again.

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                              • #30
                                Quoth Auto View Post
                                It's mindboggling that people still believe that if their CC is stolen and used, they are somehow on the hook.
                                They *are* on the hook - for clearing up the subsequent mess to their credit rating.

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