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That's just plain stupid

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  • That's just plain stupid

    Our contract with one of our biggest vendor has expired. They've put it out to tender meaning that any company can throw their hat in the ring, whoever comes in with best price wins the new contract.

    Okay, pretty standard, now we hit out snag. Our old contract gave them an hourly rate, they send a plan to us, we evaluate and give a price based on our time and manpower estimates. (Honestly, I don't know how that whole process got sorted out, but things did work). But now they want menu pricing, a set rate for anything we have to do. So diving into this:

    For starters, they are no longer allowing dispatch fees. Okay, we do jobs province wide, even country wide. The dispatch fees cover the cost to drive the distance to where the job is located. They expect us to charge to same to do a job across the street as we would for a job 100, 500, 2500 km away. I don't know how that can possibly work, or how anybody can fail to see the problem here.

    So there's problem #1. There's hundreds or even thousands of dollars in potential expenses that they want us to factor into the menu price, or it's a local job and those expenses are not there. Set the price too low, you lose money on every job. Set the price too high, you get out bid.

    The real problem comes with the work once we get there. Furniture comes in all sizes, all configurations, there are literally tens of thousands of possibilities. Granted it's all relatively the same, but each potential component adds to the workload. A dozen small pieces easily fit on one truck and can be handled by 1 or 2 guys. A dozen large pieces can fit on 1 truck, but might need 2 or 3 or 10. And the order will be for 1 unit, or 2 units, or 100, or 1000, or 100 000. We need to set a price for each one of the potential thousands of configurations, then set a price factoring in all expenses associated with getting the product where it needs to go.

    Then we get to accessories. Keyboard trays, monitor arms, other various add ons. Okay, once I'm on site and set up where I am, these are small tasks. So if it's a complete furniture install and they want a monitor arm added to the new desk, that's adding 5 minutes on to my time to complete the job. But what about when it's something existing and one of these accessories is added as it's own order. Okay, I've got to drive there, creating vehicle expenses as well as the time required, then I've got to get set up, then I've got to do the 5 minute job.

    On top of wanting this 1 price for all contingencies, they also want comparables. They want us to provide them with invoices of previous jobs showing what we have charged for the work they are requesting. Okay, that's none of your damn business. Whatever factors we have to decide a price for that client are independent to that client. If you are worried that we are trying to price gauge you, that is why this contract goes out to tender, so that you can get multiple prices and compare things that way.

    So this is the headache that my boss is facing. Consider a list of infinite possibilities and expenses, and set a price that will win us the contract and won't bankrupt the company.

    Which brings us to the MiM portion of the story. While I do often butt heads with my boss, I do genuinely like him, and feel great empathy and sympathy for him. The whole company revolves around him and he's got to hold it all together. He is ridiculously overworked at the best of times. So there's that. Then there's the fact that one of the office workers just left. He assisted in these operations, getting the groundwork done and presenting things to my boss and the president at a 50-90% completion level. He's gone, so it's up to my boss to do the whole thing.

    So what better time for the president and vice president to take a holiday. My boss has to handle his duties, their duties, and has all this dropped in front of him. I have no idea how he is keeping it all together, and I don't know if he can. This is a make or break opportunity for the company and they are off sipping margaritas.
    D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.
    Quoth = Crossbow "EvilHomer, Irv, Gravekeeper, and Seraph: the Four Horsemen of the Dumbpocalypse."

  • #2
    Let's see if I have this straight.

    The request for proposal says they want you to do an unknown amount of work at an unknown number of locations at unknown distances for a fixed price?

    Sounds like something that came for one of those move coordinators that never do their their job.
    "I don't have to be petty. The Universe does that for me."

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    • #3
      I hope your boss holds it all together, sounds like it isn't a picnic in the park.

      Can't blame them for asking for stuff like this, sometimes those contracts are signed.

      Here in the land of "We don't need no more stinkin sunlight", the operating system for the food stamp program (also, medical insurance and cash assistance) was designed by an out of state company. The contract has ZERO penalties for anything. No completion dates promised or implied. No

      The system is broken. Every patch causes more problems. Us workers have to use a broken tool that isn't going away because the state paid a lot of money for it, but the designers have no incentive to finish the job because then they would be out of work. Seeing as how they don't have to finish, they won't. Why should they?

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      • #4
        The old way gave us high incentive to finish the job. It was an hourly rate, but a fixed price quoted job. Let's say it's a 10 station install, with a loading dock, on the ground floor 100 km away. Okay, that's 1 truck, with a dispatch fee of $100+ 4 man x 8 hours x hourly rate = final price. It's then up to us to make sure we stay within that hourly estimate, if we run into problems, if we go over that 8 hours, tough, the price doesn't change, get the job done.

        But now with what they want we have to assume that it wont be 10 stations, it will just be 1. The dispatch expenses aren't going to disappear, so they have to be absorbed into the single unit price as opposed to being broken up over 10 units. and what about when it's 400 km away. What about when there's no loading dock, it's a street offload and we have to have a paid duty police officer controlling traffic. What about when it's a 3 floor stair carry. There are so many different factors that affect costs.

        Allowing us to do an honest quote on a job by job basis is the only way to account for all of these cost factors. With what they want, the only feasible way to make it work is to go high. This will mean a $2000 job is now a $3000 job, while at the same time a $5000 job is now a $4000 job. We will have to accept high profits on some jobs and losses on others, if it doesn't work, we're toast
        D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.
        Quoth = Crossbow "EvilHomer, Irv, Gravekeeper, and Seraph: the Four Horsemen of the Dumbpocalypse."

        Comment


        • #5
          I'd say it's time to replace the vendor in question. (And they are indeed questionable.) Then break out the popcorn while they try to find a new installer on those terms.

          Comment


          • #6
            Quoth evilhomer View Post
            ...This will mean a $2000 job is now a $3000 job, while at the same time a $5000 job is now a $4000 job. We will have to accept high profits on some jobs and losses on others...
            Don't worry about that, they are probably doing this so they can look at the price and notice that $COMPETITOR is lower priced than you on the $2000 job, so they will use $COMPETITOR. But your price is best on the $4000 job, so they will select you for that! So you only get losses, not high profits...
            “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.
            One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world.
            The other, of course, involves orcs." -- John Rogers

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            • #7
              At the risk of stating the obvious...

              Evilhomer, you work for morons.

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              • #8
                Quoth Nunavut Pants View Post
                Don't worry about that, they are probably doing this so they can look at the price and notice that $COMPETITOR is lower priced than you on the $2000 job, so they will use $COMPETITOR. But your price is best on the $4000 job, so they will select you for that! So you only get losses, not high profits...
                Yup. There's nothing preventing $CUSTOMER from going to $COMPETITOR for lower prices on simpler jobs and hitting you with all the shitwork. You ought to point this out to your boss.

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                • #9
                  I actually think this will backfire on the customer. Every company will be in the same position as Evilhomer's, nobody can stay in business continually taking a loss. And from what I understand about the bidding process, I don't see how else this can end up. It's really quite silly.

                  I remember some big customers had all these stupid requirements when I worked at the roofing company. They could do it because the jobs were huge. Some had so many forms and steps and deadlines that our company was literally the ONLY company to jump through all the hoops. We jacked up the price accordingly, but you know, that was because the company I worked for would not go out of business if we didn't get the job.
                  Replace anger management with stupidity management.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Part of my job is costing projects, and the number of clients who don't think things through is scary.
                    Fortunately, most of our clients are repeat clients, and if they go elsewhere, they get their fingers burnt and come back to us. (Costing a project 10 years ago and getting surprised about inflation is a current theme).

                    Yes, travel time is going to cost. As is complicated fittings, and issues in the original building.
                    (we regularly have to deal with existing poisonous materials (e.g. asbestos), protected species (e.g. bats), and other problems (structural issues, possibility of WWII bombs, invasive plants that are illegal to leave growing etc).

                    When a competitor undercuts us by offering a shorter timeframe, and then cocks up royally, it is so satifying when the client comes back to us. :-)

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                    • #11
                      As I understand the contract, we will be their exclusive company, they can't just pick and choose which jobs they will use us for. (but of course, this is above my pay grade (and level of caring) so I don't know exactly how that works). But I believe they won't be able to just pick us for the loss jobs.

                      It really has the potential to backfire on this manufacturer because they are asking for so much unknown. If everyone sees that they are asking you to eat thousands of dollars on various jobs, they won't do so and the prices will reflect that, costing so much more on jobs that could have been cheap.

                      Overall however, I really believe we will get outbid on this because some other companies won't know what they are stepping into. If so, it won't take long for them to come clamouring back to us as someone realizes the shithole they've fallen into and bails.

                      I'll have to see how the MiM of Mickey Mouse Moving go from that.
                      D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.
                      Quoth = Crossbow "EvilHomer, Irv, Gravekeeper, and Seraph: the Four Horsemen of the Dumbpocalypse."

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