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Some emotional house cleaning

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  • #16
    Nothing to say except, good luck and keep us posted.

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    • #17
      Well, we're chatting now.

      The owner feels sympathy for "Todd". He told me that this guy has had some emotional problems over the last year or so. As if I care.

      I've been pointing out that I said quite clearly that I don't want "Todd" in my life, but the owner is a very friendly guy who doesn't like to come down hard on anyone. I understand that. He also said that "Todd" largely keeps to himself.

      God, I wish he would. I wish he would keep entirely to himself, at home.

      So, it seems that "Todd" hasn't been bothering anyone else. He just focuses on me, and this is triggering some PTSD from my past, which I definitely do not need. I hate to admit it, but I wish he would make a real nuisance of himself with other people, so that he would get banned. And I don't know how long that would take, even if he did do it.

      I'm just so fed up with this. I want him to go away completely.

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      • #18
        I hate to say this, but hear me out. I think you're going to have to stop going there, at least for a while.

        I know you don't want to feel as though this guy chased you away from a place you like. But sometimes you have to put safety and peace of mind above those preferences. If there is somewhere else you can go, not too near the current place, especially if it's different enough that it can't be easily seen as an "Eireann type of place", to make it harder for him to find you - maybe give that a try. I don't know this guy if would go so far as to look around town for you, or if it's just too easy for him to find you right now.

        It doesn't sound like the owner will be much help. He should consider the fact that having a customer make another customer uncomfortable is bad for business. But whether he does or not, you can only control your own actions.

        Just a suggestion. I totally get why it would piss you off to feel like you can't go where you want to go.
        When you start at zero, everything's progress.

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        • #19
          To follow on from MoonCat's advice above, reconsider how often you go there. If you go once a week, drop it down to once a fortnight or once every 3 weeks. Go at all different times of the day/week and only stay for a short time. Finding somewhere else in a different part of the city might be good too. Then you can alternate the places you go once he gets the message and leaves you alone.

          It may be time to start making a scene anytime that he starts trying to talk to you. He comes up to you, you loudly (doesn't have to be shouting yet) tell him to stop talking to you and leave you alone. Make it loud and make it clear.

          You want to include things like:
          I've already told you several times to stop talking to me. Leave me alone.
          What part of 'I don't want to see you' is not clear?
          Stop talking to me.
          Get away from me.
          We are not friends. Do not come near me again.
          After the way you treated me, I never want to see you again.

          I'm a casual swearer, so there would be a few not polite words added if I were the one saying it, but that's up to you. You want to make it very clear (and public) that you will not be taking his shit and he needs to scram. The public embarrassment should help him get the message. (I have used this on a few people and it has worked. It took one extra dense person 3 times, but they all got the message that I was not going to tolerate them.)

          I don't want to scare you and I really hope that I am wrong this. But, if you see him outside of the hangout place, avoid him, just walk past him or ignore him. And take note of where you are, day and time. If he starts turning up in places you haven't seen him before, you may have a stalker. And at that point, you should seek advice from the police. You can always seek advice from the police now, so that you know where the legal lines are before he can cross them.

          I am crossing my fingers that he is not a stalker and is just a bit denser than usual on the social front.
          A good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read. - Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!

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          • #20
            Starting to sound like a Sock Puppet, but I agree with MoonCat.

            It is a shame the owner is not willing to assist. I should not have suggested that he threaten to throw Todd out, more that he should ask Todd to stay away from you while in his establishment.

            I keep getting ideas of this you could do, but then I go back to what I said earlier. You can't become emotional. Showing anger shows that there is a level of control.

            The only thing that I can think of that doesn't involve showing emotions is to ignore him. Do not respond. However, then you have to deal with the stress of ignoring him. Doesn't make for a good evening.

            I would also suggest that if you do go back there, don't go alone.

            One last thing. If he touches you, defend yourself.
            Life is too short to not eat popcorn.
            Save the Ales!
            Toys for Tots at Rooster's Cafe

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            • #21
              The owner is a man, so he has no idea what it's like to be in this situation. Not many men are going to give much thought to their personal safety if a woman keeps trying to talk to them. For women, well....

              I catch the bus home near the hangout place, so if he should happen to be going there, or coming from it, there's a chance he would see me. That's an issue. Until last year, I hadn't seen him at all, and I wasn't sure that he was even still in the country (not that I cared). So it's unlikely that I'll run into him anywhere else.

              I'm going to let the owner know why I'm concerned. He thinks that it's just an issue between "Todd" and me. Yes, it is, but there's another issue here: If "Todd" won't take no from me, he might not take it from another woman. He could raise all kinds of hell at the hangout. I understand that the owner doesn't want to ban a customer for talking to a woman who doesn't want to talk to him. You can get a reputation that way.

              Then again, you can also get a reputation if you own an establishment where one of the customers gets away with harassment. And that's what this is.

              I have thought of confronting "Todd" very loudly if he attempts to talk to me again. I've thought of telling him that under no circumstances is he to have any sort of interaction with me again - not sitting near me, not speaking to me (which includes saying "hi"), nothing. And telling him that he's been harassing me, and that if he doesn't stop immediately, I will go to the authorities. If I do so in front of the crowd at the hangout, I'll have a large group of potential witnesses, which I can also point out.

              I've dealt with harassment before. "Todd" is triggering some PTSD flashbacks, and this is not good.

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              • #22
                Have you tried telling the owner flatly that "Todd" is harassing you, and that if it continues you'll get the police involved? Maybe the prospect of the cops showing up at his establishment will spur him into taking some action.

                I would, next time "Todd" tries to talk to you, tell HIM flatly that his continued advances are now harassment, and if he does it again you're calling the police and filing charges. Just that, coldly and loud enough that everyone in the area can hear it clearly. No need to go on at that point, you really cannot get much clearer than that, since he doesn't seem to want to grasp more polite terms.
                Last edited by Kittish; 01-20-2018, 10:54 PM.
                You're only delaying the inevitable, you run at your own expense. The repo man gets paid to chase you. ~Argabarga

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                • #23
                  Eireann, I don't claim to understand what you're going through with Toad, however before complaining to the owner to make him ban Toad keep in mind he might just ban you especially if Toad spends more money than you. That would be a crappy thing to do on the owners but most business folks look at the bottom line before much else. Good luck.
                  Bow down before me for I am ROOT

                  Preserving precious bodily fluids sine 1952

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                  • #24
                    The owner did offer to speak to "Todd" on my behalf - tell him that I don't want him talking to me - and I accepted, with thanks. I doubt very much that this guy spends more money there than I do. What I think should concern the owner is that if "Todd" doesn't harass me, he might start in on someone else (for example, a female employee). I haven't mentioned that yet, but I will if things start to go south. The owner is a great guy who believes in giving people a chance. Some time ago, he had to kick out a regular who became loud and verbally abusive, and felt awful about it later. (Said regular is still a regular, but he behaves himself now.)

                    If "Todd" tries to talk to me again, then yes, I will tell him, in the presence of witnesses, that he is harassing me, and that if he does it again, I will tell the authorities. That will tell everyone in the vicinity that he is a harasser, and they can keep their eyes open. I plan to let "Todd" know that if he even says "I understand" to me, that will constitute harassment, and it will result in the police being informed.

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                    • #25
                      Well, I was at the hangout tonight, and as shit luck would have it, he was there too.

                      He didn't say anything to me. He didn't ask to sit at my table. The owner came over and asked if other people could sit there. I said, "Sure, as long as it's not..." and nodded towards "Todd".

                      Towards the end of the evening, though, when I was paying, I got to chatting with the employee who took my money. It turned out that "Todd" was in line behind me, and he heard what I was saying. He then said something about it to the person he was with. I imagine many of you have known someone who will overhear another person talking, then start singing a song relating to one or more words in the conversation. That's what he did. It's annoying as fuck to me anyway, but I despised knowing that he was listening in and trying to make his presence felt.

                      Later, when waiting to use the bathroom, I happened to glance in his direction, and I think he waved at me.

                      This guy just refuses to get a clue. I'm going to ask the owner if he's had a chance to talk to him yet. He keeps triggering these PTSD flashbacks, and I've had enough.

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                      • #26
                        I don't know if warning the owner that Todd could behave like this to others is a good idea, given the owner's reluctance to play the heavy. Until Todd DOES start harassing others, the owner is likely to brush this off. At this point the owner doesn't see Todd as a major problem, and that's not likely to change unless he does start harassing others.

                        Blue_Ginger has some good lines to use, although I would probably not use the "After the way you treated me ..." one. That IMO is just opening the door to his saying, "But what did I do? And why didn't you tell me? Just let me explain! *blah blah blah*" You do not want to be put in a position where it seems as though you have to defend your wish to not speak to him.

                        The other lines are great, though. They don't leave any room for misunderstanding.

                        And unfortunately, I think MoonCat might have a good point about staying away from there for a while. Or at least varying the times you go there so he doesn't know when you're likely to be there. You have already seen that even if he doesn't speak TO you, he may speak about or "around" you, picking up the threads of your conversation. And that's going to create an annoyance/stress level that you don't need.
                        Customer service: More efficient than a Dementor's kiss
                        ~ Mr Hero

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                        • #27
                          The problem with explaining anything to someone you want no contact with is that explaining is contact. And that just feeds their ego, which refuses to accept the cutoff unless it's their own idea. It's good that you're ignoring him as much as possible. I still think that if he doesn't see you there for a while, he's more likely to realize that you are 100% serious about not wanting any contact with him at all. Good luck! Stay safe.
                          When you start at zero, everything's progress.

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                          • #28
                            Oh, there's no need to worry that I'll use the "After what you did to me..." line. For one thing, it sounds as if we were in an intimate relationship, and we never were. Fortunately. I have enough regrets in that area as it is.

                            I don't owe him any explanations, and he's not getting any. I believe he sees himself as a nice, misunderstood guy who's had a rough time. Rough time, maybe. Nice and misunderstood? No. Nice people know when they aren't wanted, and if, by some chance, they miss the non-verbal cues, they understand when told that the other person wants nothing to do with them.

                            As for not going to the hangout, he has no way of knowing when I'll be there and when I won't. The same is true for me. If I could know with certainty when he wasn't going to be there, that's when I would go. However, this hangout has events going on all the time, and attendance is usually pretty high, particularly among the regulars. And since he refuses to believe I'm serious about not wanting any contact with him, he's not going to say to himself, "I haven't seen Eireann at the hangout in some time. I wonder if this means something about me? Could it be that she really doesn't want to be in the same room with me?"

                            I was tempted to wave back at him last night, with one finger, but I didn't.

                            I'm glad I told the owner, so that he can be alert to this guy's behavior. I still find it significant that, out of all the regulars who might have been bothering me, he knew which one it was immediately. I hope he's picked up on what this guy is doing, even if it is subtle.

                            I'm going to get in touch with some women's groups today and explain the situation. I've already emailed one woman who is involved in such things, and I've contacted another group on Facebook.

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                            • #29
                              Quoth Eireann View Post
                              Some time later, when I thought he had gone, he showed up, with a smile on his face. He said, "Hi, Eireann."

                              "Hi," I said frostily.

                              "How are you?"

                              After a long pause, I said, "Fine."

                              He then said, "I know you don't want to talk to me, and I'm sorry."
                              "And yet, here you are, in my face."

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                              • #30
                                Quoth Eireann View Post
                                "How are you?"
                                I was fine until you showed up.

                                He then said, "I know you don't want to talk to me..."
                                Then why the fuck are you doing it??
                                Happiness is the exercise of vital powers along lines of excellence in a life affording you scope.

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