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  • Shoddy Programming

    I think I've mentioned the issues we've had with our new loan and deposit software before. I could almost do an epic thread about all the crap we've gone through with it.

    Quick recap: The software company decided to phase out their old software and move to a web-based platform. We were originally supposed to start using the software in February, but they pushed it back multiple times as they hunted down bugs and released multiple patches. The main branch, in Wisconsin, finally started using the software in May, but the Minnesota module wasn't ready. Each month, they would push the release date back and extend the license for the old software another month (even though they discontinued support for the old software). Finally, now in September, the MN module is supposed to be ready.

    Almost every day, we're emailing them about bugs we've found. Last week, it wasn't checking either of the boxes for prepayment penalties on loans. The late charge wasn't printing correctly, then it was correct on one document but incorrect on another document, then they finally got it fixed this week.

    The documents the software creates are pdfs. Which would be fine, except - due to what I consider lazy programming, they named fields the same thing on different documents. So if you load all the documents as a single pdf, the information in one field copies into fields named the same thing on other documents. The only way to work around this is to load each document individually, then print it, adding significant amounts of time to the account opening process. They've been working on this, so it's less of an issue now than a month ago, but I still see this happening on a few forms.

    But let's get what prompted me to post today. It's so stupid, I can't even fathom it. I did a loan secured by a vehicle the other day. When I got to the documents, I saw that the Grant of Security Interest (so we can put our lien on the vehicle) was missing. This is a critical document for an auto loan, so I was confused how it could be missing.

    I looked in the blank documents on their website. Oh - that's another thing. Pulling up blank documents in the software is almost impossible. Even where you're supposed to be able to do it, there's always some information filled in already, like the bank's name and address. So they made up blank fillable pdfs of the documents and put them on their secure website. So, I looked for the grant form, and it wasn't there, either.

    I emailed the employee at the software company. She said the grant form should be at the bottom of the list of forms. I looked again. Nothing. I asked if there was a checkbox I might have missed. She said that when I type in the state under the collateral location, that is the trigger for it to choose the correct state's grant form.

    I looked for this in the software. It's on there, yes. Halfway down the screen. It's labeled "collateral location, if different than the customer's address." Why would I think to fill that in? The software doesn't highlight that the state needs to be filled in to get a grant form. It doesn't pop up a warning that it needs to be filled in before you continue to the next screen (like it does for other fields). I even looked at the documentation. Yes, it does mention that "the state field triggers the appearance of the grant form corresponding to the state entered." But it's not highlighted that it must be completed, and just above, it says that the collateral location only needs to be completed if it's different than the customer's address. It's something that's well hidden and easy to miss.

    I finally got the grant form to come up, but I'm not done complaining. The grant checkbox wasn't checked, nor was the date of the security agreement (another document the software prepares) filled in.

    So I emailed all these things to the employee at the software company. Hopefully, they'll add them to their to-do list. Heh.

    (I haven't even gotten into the issues with the user interface.)
    "I look at the stars. It's a clear night and the Milky Way seems so near. That's where I'll be going soon. "We are all star stuff." I suddenly remember Delenn's line from Joe's script. Not a bad prospect. I am not afraid. In the meantime, let me close my eyes and sense the beauty around me. And take that breath under the dark sky full of stars. Breathe in. Breathe out. That's all."
    -Mira Furlan

  • #2
    Did the programmers even consult anyone who ever worked in a bank?
    Silly question, sorry Ghel.
    I give up, why was there no apparent testing of this system?
    I'm trying to see things from your point of view, but I can't get my head that far up my keister!

    Who is John Galt?
    -Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

    Comment


    • #3
      Why? I have no idea.

      In my email, I still have the original announcement of the software from 2 years ago. They claim the software was "developed with input from long-time customers like you." Suuure.... They expected the software to be available "later this fall." That was in 2012.

      When the Wisconsin module was released in February, it seemed like no testing had been done. When we did the original training, there were multiple places where the trainer hit an error, then just clicked through it to continue the training.
      "I look at the stars. It's a clear night and the Milky Way seems so near. That's where I'll be going soon. "We are all star stuff." I suddenly remember Delenn's line from Joe's script. Not a bad prospect. I am not afraid. In the meantime, let me close my eyes and sense the beauty around me. And take that breath under the dark sky full of stars. Breathe in. Breathe out. That's all."
      -Mira Furlan

      Comment


      • #4
        Quoth taxguykarl View Post
        Did the programmers even consult anyone who ever worked in a bank?
        Silly question, sorry Ghel.
        I give up, why was there no apparent testing of this system?
        The suits promised the world. It was late, so they skipped qa.

        pretty stupid, and pretty normal, especially in situations where you've already won the job.
        Life: Reality TV for deities. - dalesys

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        • #5
          Testing costs money

          A friend of mine works at a bank, she designs and runs the unit tests on the bank's software before it is released to be used in the business.

          The more unit tests she writes and runs, the fewer bugs there is left in the software when it gets out into the wild.

          However, the diffirent division who have to pay for the unit testing is always trying to cut down on the number of tests AND sign off that the software is okay at the same time.

          This she refuses to do when they try to cut too deep, it is one thing if she estimates some software needs 1200 unit tests to pass to be considered ready and they put pressure to make the software live when it only passed 1100 tests, the remaining 100 are usually minor issues that can be worked around.

          But if something major fails she will not sign-off on the software, worse is when they try to pressure her to sign off on a piece of software that only passed 800 or less tests.

          Yes, they try that all the time because if they can fool her into signing then if something goes worse guess who the blame falls on?

          It rarely is the programmer's fault, more likely it is internal politics or scuzzy upper management.

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          • #6
            Some of the problems Ghel describes have me facepalming. I can sort-of see how such errors are *possible*, but working out why anyone would design the system so that they *were* possible is beyond me. I start wondering whether their people have even heard of "structured data".

            Comment


            • #7
              Some of the stuff, yeah, it's the programmers' fault. Other things are obviously that they're getting bad information from those who are supposed to be giving them specs.

              One of the things that's the programmer's fault is the user interface. As I said, it's a web-based user interface. (I use Chrome, but these same things happen if I use IE.) Instead using the browser window as the work area, the user interface is in a smaller, fixed-sized window within the browser. Each of the screens you go through is a different size, so you have to scroll vertically and sometimes horizontally to get to all the fields you need to fill. Most screens, you wouldn't even have to scroll if they used the entire browser window. A few screens, such as the list of documents ready to print, has another scroll bar on the left.

              On my pc, it's even worse. I've got a fancy new monitor set to high resolution. I love it, but all the text was really tiny. So I went into the Windows settings and turned up the font size. Problem solved, right? Well, not with the crappy software. That little window inside my browser now has 2 sets of scroll bars! I can use my mouse wheel for most of the up/down scrolling, but the left/right scroll bars are a real pain.

              Plus there's certain fields that require a "list of values." They don't use drop-down boxes. No, that would make too much sense. Instead, you have to click a special button that only appears after you click in a field, doubling the number of clicks you have to make. Then it pops up a separate box, always to the left side of the screen. If the field needing the list of values is on the right of the screen, I have to scroll to the right, click on the field, click on the button, then scroll left to be able to click on my selection from the list of values. It's no wonder that opening an account takes 3 times longer than on the old software.
              "I look at the stars. It's a clear night and the Milky Way seems so near. That's where I'll be going soon. "We are all star stuff." I suddenly remember Delenn's line from Joe's script. Not a bad prospect. I am not afraid. In the meantime, let me close my eyes and sense the beauty around me. And take that breath under the dark sky full of stars. Breathe in. Breathe out. That's all."
              -Mira Furlan

              Comment


              • #8
                Yeah, that's what I mean. You have to actually *try* to fail that hard. Taking the most obvious, straightforward approach would have avoided most of those problems.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ouch

                  One: I would never write software which such a lousy UI, it sounds like they are using a screen management software package that is inferior to the software I used on a Commodore 8032 in the 1980's/

                  Two: If management is forcing the programmers to use such a stupid interface I can see all the good programmers leaving for elsewhere and the only programmers they have left are bad programmers and/or one who don't know better.

                  On a web interface where half the work of the interface is already done by the browser there is no need for such a piece of junk to be shipped.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Are these proggers trying to get fired?? Do they just no longer give a shit? I'm a rank amateur when it comes to UI design, but even i know better than that...

                    It all sounds very Dilbert-esque to me o_O
                    "For a musician, the SNES sound engine is like using Crayola Crayons. Nobuo Uematsu used Crayola Crayons to paint the Sistine Chapel." - Jeremy Jahns (re: "Dancing Mad")
                    "The difference between an amateur and a master is that the master has failed way more times." - JoCat
                    "Thinking is difficult, therefore let the herd pronounce judgment!" ~ Carl Jung
                    "There's burning bridges, and then there's the lake just to fill it with gasoline." - Wiccy, reddit
                    "Retail is a cruel master, and could very well be the most educational time of many people's lives, in its own twisted way." - me
                    "Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down...tell you she's hurtin' 'fore she keens...makes her a home." - Capt. Malcolm Reynolds, "Serenity" (2005)
                    Acts of Gord – Read it, Learn it, Love it!
                    "Our psychic powers only work if the customer has a mind to read." - me

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                    • #11
                      Quoth EricKei View Post
                      Are these proggers trying to get fired?? Do they just no longer give a shit? I'm a rank amateur when it comes to UI design, but even i know better than that...

                      It all sounds very Dilbert-esque to me o_O
                      Likely they are just totally clueless. Bespoke programming like that is annoying at best (even when correct, the specs are byzantine in their complexity). It doesn't tend to attract the best programmers around based on the intellectual aspects, and the pay is often not the best (got to keep those shareholders paid now!). So they tend to take what they can get, which is frequently idiots who've read a book.
                      Life: Reality TV for deities. - dalesys

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        When I (and others - I've heard people make similar statements during training) have complained about the user interface, the trainer's response has been that they need to get the software functional first, then they'll work on the user interface. Wait, don't those things go hand in hand? And why are you releasing software that you know isn't functional?
                        "I look at the stars. It's a clear night and the Milky Way seems so near. That's where I'll be going soon. "We are all star stuff." I suddenly remember Delenn's line from Joe's script. Not a bad prospect. I am not afraid. In the meantime, let me close my eyes and sense the beauty around me. And take that breath under the dark sky full of stars. Breathe in. Breathe out. That's all."
                        -Mira Furlan

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          For software like this, the user interface is probably at least half of its raison d'ĂȘtre. You certainly don't treat its implementation as an afterthought.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Quoth Ghel View Post
                            And why are you releasing software that you know isn't functional?
                            Because they get paid at various milestones, one of which is 'ship it'.
                            Life: Reality TV for deities. - dalesys

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Quoth mhkohne View Post
                              Because they get paid at various milestones, one of which is 'ship it'.
                              Of course, if the prevailing attitude is "ship it", the resulting quality will be "ship it
                              Any fool can piss on the floor. It takes a talented SC to shit on the ceiling.

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