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  • Crunch!

    Because of the link, I put it here. It might belong in Roadkill, or (if discussion becomes too contentious) elsewhere.

    The first fatal crash involving a self-driving car has happened. The story isn't clear on how fast the car was going, but implies it was pretty fast (came to rest a few hundred feet down the road, claim that it sheared off a telephone pole a quarter mile past the crash site). No indication of whether the truck was partially at fault (did he look to see if a car was coming?) or whether it was a "roll the dice" intersection (time for a car traveling at the speed limit to travel from where it first becomes visible to turning traffic until it reaches the intersection is less than the time for a loaded semi starting from a dead stop to make its turn and clear the intersection).

    The DVD player in the wreck is a bad sign, considering Tesla's autopilot requires the driver to be alert with both hands on the wheel in case the system encounters something it can't handle and decides to switch off (in which case, what's the point of using it instead of driving manually?).

    Autonomous driving systems having a "Jesus take the wheel!" fallback are a serious problem - IMNSHO, it's not to get the driver to handle a situation the computer can't, but to protect the computer's safety record by handing off to the scapegoatdriver once the computer's inability to handle the situation is too far gone for the human to be able to recover.
    Any fool can piss on the floor. It takes a talented SC to shit on the ceiling.

  • #2
    This sort of thing will happen. My true feelings about this sort of thing are very definitely fratching material, so...

    But this brings to mind the urban legend about the guy who bought a motorhome, got on the road, turned on cruise control... and then got up and went into the back.

    You know, I really, truly can't wait for the day when self-driving cars are so good that it becomes illegal for people to do their own driving in non-emergency situations. Yes, I'll be out of a job (if I'm still driving a cab at that point) but I don't care, it'll be worth it. I have this whole fantasy built up where, if the driver takes manual control of the car, it automatically sends an emergency alert to the local authorities, because if you're controlling the car, it MUST be an emergency, right? Something a bit like the freeway ambush from I, Robot (without the killer robots ).
    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, you speak with the Fraud department. -- CrazedClerkthe2nd
    OW! Rolled my eyes too hard, saw my brain. -- Seanette
    she seems to top me in crazy, and I'm enough crazy for my family. -- Cooper
    Yes, I am evil. What's your point? -- Jester

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    • #3
      Self-driving cars worry me for reasons like this.

      Also, I recall a point that Jeremy Clarkson made on Top Gear about these. It was something to the effect of some lunkhead is going to assume he can fix his self-driving car himself, without having to take it to the shop for service, at which point he is going to be coming the opposite direction from you one day while assuming his self-driving function is still working properly, and he'll be coming straight at you.
      PWNADE(TM) - Serve up a glass today! | PWNZER - An act of pwnage so awesome, it's like the victim got hit by a tank.

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      • #4
        I've been hearing reports that the car's sensors saw the side of a white truck as an especially bright sun, which IMO is the bigger problem. There are a LOT of large, white vehicles out there. It also makes me wonder how the sensors would respond to something such as fog or snow.
        The fact that jellyfish have survived for 650 million years despite not having brains gives hope to many people.

        You would have to be incredibly dense for the world to revolve around you.

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        • #5
          I'm more than a little worried about self-driving cars. I just don't think the AI is good enough yet. I mean, we still can't even get smartphones to not have software issues, and I'd rather not deal with a car whose "brain" just did a BSOD at 65mph.
          "Crazy may always be open for business, but on the full moon, it has buy one get one free specials." - WishfulSpirit

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          • #6
            There's going to be a lot of finger pointing to either blame the tech or declare it's not the cause. However this is going to overlook the prinipal failing of what constitutes modern "artificial intelligence":

            It cannot reason or adapt to it's environment.

            No matter how much proponents will claim how advanced their AI is, everything it uses to simulate human intelligence and reasoning is something programmed into it. The moment something comes up that it isn't programmed for it craps out. Now regardless of whether you support or oppose the idea of automated vehicles, the idea of an "AI" operated vehicle is not a conceivable concept for that very reason at this time.
            I AM the evil bastard!
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            • #7
              Exactly. They'll be wonderful when we get to the point where ALL vehicles are automated, but I don't think that's gonna be within any of our lifetimes.
              "For a musician, the SNES sound engine is like using Crayola Crayons. Nobuo Uematsu used Crayola Crayons to paint the Sistine Chapel." - Jeremy Jahns (re: "Dancing Mad")
              "The difference between an amateur and a master is that the master has failed way more times." - JoCat
              "Thinking is difficult, therefore let the herd pronounce judgment!" ~ Carl Jung
              "There's burning bridges, and then there's the lake just to fill it with gasoline." - Wiccy, reddit
              "Retail is a cruel master, and could very well be the most educational time of many people's lives, in its own twisted way." - me
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              • #8
                Quoth lordlundar View Post
                There's going to be a lot of finger pointing to either blame the tech or declare it's not the cause. However this is going to overlook the prinipal failing of what constitutes modern "artificial intelligence":

                It cannot reason or adapt to it's environment.

                No matter how much proponents will claim how advanced their AI is, everything it uses to simulate human intelligence and reasoning is something programmed into it. The moment something comes up that it isn't programmed for it craps out. Now regardless of whether you support or oppose the idea of automated vehicles, the idea of an "AI" operated vehicle is not a conceivable concept for that very reason at this time.
                What impressed me is that Tesla seems to have owned up to it. Within a day I saw an article where they said the system malfunctioned, which impresses me as companies normally deny and drag their feet as much as possible.

                As to what happened, I read somewhere that Tesla's appear to suffer from a blind spot at windshield level, which isn't entirely surprising, since any sensors there would have to be placed in such a way as to avoid obstructing the driver's vision.
                Seph
                Taur10
                "You're supposed to be the head of covert intelligence. Right now, I'm not seeing a hell of a lot of intelligence. Covert, overt, or otherwise!"-Lochley, B5, A View from the Gallery

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                • #9
                  A few points, since I have been following this:

                  - There has been some partially-informed speculation that the "radar" (sonar?) on the Model S only "sees" things below the hood line. It looks as if the Autopilot uses the camera for things that are higher and further away. Interpreting the image can lead to situations where a white truck side was not picked out from a bright sky.
                  - The truck turned across a divided road that the Tesla was traveling on at high speed. The divided road did not have a stop or a yield.
                  - Tesla waited just under two months to notify the public; they notified the NTSB right away. They waited, in fact, until just after raising another round of funding through selling stock.

                  BTW, I am someone who enjoys driving. I won't give it up easily! Then again, I'm not getting any younger, so there is a reasonable chance that by the time the "all automated freeway" becomes a reality I will not be in any condition to drive any more...

                  Oh, and there has been a TV show based on something like the future Deserted imagines: http://jalopnik.com/how-this-obscure...utu-1780951876
                  “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.
                  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world.
                  The other, of course, involves orcs." -- John Rogers

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                  • #10
                    That looks pretty interesting. Thanks for the pointer; I'll have to find a copy.
                    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, you speak with the Fraud department. -- CrazedClerkthe2nd
                    OW! Rolled my eyes too hard, saw my brain. -- Seanette
                    she seems to top me in crazy, and I'm enough crazy for my family. -- Cooper
                    Yes, I am evil. What's your point? -- Jester

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                    • #11
                      Other stuff came out more recently:

                      It was not literally a 100% self-driving car, as the tech really isn't there yet. It's more that it tries to keep you centered in your lane, it tries to prevent you from merging INTO another car, etc. You still need to keep a hand on the wheel.

                      A portable DVD player was found inside the car. Some witnesses report hearing Harry Potter playing, some insist otherwise. Car maker insists that it would be impossible to view video on the center viewscreen if the car was in motion, if not impossible to route it thru the console at all.

                      Driver was known for being clever with electronics.
                      "For a musician, the SNES sound engine is like using Crayola Crayons. Nobuo Uematsu used Crayola Crayons to paint the Sistine Chapel." - Jeremy Jahns (re: "Dancing Mad")
                      "The difference between an amateur and a master is that the master has failed way more times." - JoCat
                      "Thinking is difficult, therefore let the herd pronounce judgment!" ~ Carl Jung
                      "There's burning bridges, and then there's the lake just to fill it with gasoline." - Wiccy, reddit
                      "Retail is a cruel master, and could very well be the most educational time of many people's lives, in its own twisted way." - me
                      "Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down...tell you she's hurtin' 'fore she keens...makes her a home." - Capt. Malcolm Reynolds, "Serenity" (2005)
                      Acts of Gord – Read it, Learn it, Love it!
                      "Our psychic powers only work if the customer has a mind to read." - me

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