Hey, Jester (chili recipe)

[Kittish]

Something you might be interested in trying. Apple Pie Bison Chili. I was a bit skeptical at the title of the dish, but it sounds like it has some good potential, and lots of room for playing/modifying.

[Jester]

I had a few problems with this.

First and foremost, it's one thing to be sponsored by a corporate entity. I get that. But I didn't need the disclaimer at the bottom telling me this blog was sponsored by a corporate entity, as the author promoted five different products by said corporate entity in the space of one food blog, talking about one dish. Even without the disclaimer, I would have surmised either that this blog was sponsored by a corporate entity or that the author of this blog was fucking the CEO of said corporate entity. Or perhaps stalking them. You get the idea.

Anyway, what did I think about the recipe itself? As I said, I had a few problems, and surprisingly, the above nonsense was not the only one.

Is this a dessert chili, which I think can work, or a chili with some dessert type ingredients? To me it's clear that it's the latter, and frankly, it sounds, to channel my inner Gordon Ramsay, "like a bad idea made worse by poor execution, resulting in something I wouldn't feed my cat." And I don't have a cat.

To disrespect a quality meat like bison with....whatever THIS is just makes me gag. This is a poorly thought out chili recipe that took a stupidly planned bad turn into a disastrous attempt at fusion.

Look, I'm not a chili purist. I welcome offbeat ideas and wild forays into insane creativity. I won't lie....some ingredients that go into my chili would surprise you. Some are traditional ingredients that the average person may not know about, and some are ones that would turn the heads of traditionalists around like Linda Blair having a flashback. But all of them make sense, and none of them overpower the basic thrust of the chili, whatever it is.

And yes, different chilis have different thrusts, or purposes, or goals, if you will. From my own repertoire, for example, my signature chili is designed to be meaty, smoky, spicy, and sweet; my lamb chili is designed to be light and somewhat Mediterranean; my vegetarian chili is designed to be spicy and "meaty" without meat, but without using a bunch of vegetables that really don't belong in chili, like a lot of vegetarian chilis seem to; my white seafood chili is designed to be rich, creamy, and remind one of the greatness of seafood; and of course, my Devil's Ass chili is designed to scorch your tongue to a cinder and blow the top of your skull clean off. Other chilis by other cooks have other goals as well, whether it's to be somewhat mild for more mass appeal, to use leftover meats and veggies to a good and tasty purpose, or to sell more Frosty's to cool down your mouth from eating Wendy's surprisingly good fast food chili. And so on and so forth.

The worst thing a bartender can do is forget that he is not the star of the show--the drink is. And it's fine to be clever and even show off with your drinks, but in the end, if you're being clever and showing off just to show how clever you are, but your drink is anywhere from mediocre to terrible, you have failed as a bartender. The same is true with cooks. And the basic thrust I get from this author is that they are trying to show off how clever they are by doing something unusual. Being unusual just for the sake of being unusual ends up being boring or even off putting.

Back to my problems with this recipe. Up to step 6, I am totally down with it. Sure, I prefer to use white onions instead of yellow, but everyone has preferences, and many people prefer the sweetness of yellow onions to white. But as I said, I am along for the ride, and looking forward to where it is going. And then....then we get to the train wreck that happens in steps 7-9.

Step 7 is when they start skidding off the road. Those spices added to this recipe? Wait, what? Okay, maybe they're taking a detour that I've never seen. Maybe they're going somewhere new and exciting.

Step 8 they're completely off the road and heading to somewhere that sounds odd, if not downright scary. And it's not the cider scaring me. Hard or nonalcoholic, I can totally see cider in a chili recipe. That has potential.

And then we get to the end of step 8 and all of step 9, which is where the chili car goes flying off the cliff, hurtles hundreds of feet down into the gorge, and slams into the ground below, exploding in a giant fireball of death and destruction.

They want you to BOIL MEAT. No, not just boil meat. Boil bison. For THIRTY MINUTES. The Meat Gods didn't just wince, nor did they simply break down into tears, but they collapsed from an attack of wracking spasmodic pains to the very core of their beings. Even all but the most militant of anti-meat vegetarians would think this is utter cruelty to meat eaters.

Another thing along similar lines is that this recipe is designed to be cooked quickly. What chili have you ever had that you thought was great was cooked quickly? The idea is to go low and slow, much like barbecue cooking, to meld all the flavors and make things tender and succulent. They try to get around this by boiling the fucking meat for half an hour, but all that does is make everything really, really, really soft, not tender, just soft. And the flavors never get a chance to come together because they're being boiled to death. Water boils. Broths boil. Some sauces boil. Chilis don't boil. Chilis simmer.

Are there ways to "cheat" and make chilis quicker? Yes. But not by boiling. Never by boiling. The very idea just makes this Southwesterner's blood, well, boil.

At this point, there is no saving this recipe, but for thoroughness, I will point out the other flaws in this recipe. Admittedly this is like pointing out the dented lug nuts and scratched paint on the flaming wreckage in front of us, but as I said, I'm being thorough.

Where are the peppers? Seriously, look at the recipe. No peppers. A smattering of chili powder, sure, but no peppers to speak of. Not spicy, not mellow, no hot, not mild. Not even bell peppers. Peppers belong in chili. It's in the name. Chili. Chile pepper. This is not coincidence. "But they're spelled differently, Jester." Yes. Languages grow and evolve. But chile peppers are often called chili peppers. And if you don't believe me on this point, look up the history of chili. Not just the dish, but the word itself. It comes from the Nahuatl word "chili" which referred to, you guessed it, chile peppers. The argument that this is a semi-dessert chili doesn't hold water either. Peppers can be sweet, can be made sweeter, and can be made to work in sweet dishes. And this argument falls apart when you realize that onions and garlic are in this recipe. Peppers should be too.

And since we're taking roll call and noticing that peppers are conspicuously absent, it should be obvious who else is missing. The beloved tomato. (Sorry, mathnerd.) The unheralded but necessary backbone of all red chilis. True, there are tomato-less white chilis and green chilis. But this is neither a white nor green chili. This is a meat chili. And the recipe calls for a whopping total of 1 tablespoon of tomato paste. (My apologies to the state of New Jersey and the cities of Jacksonville, Texas, and Crystal Springs, Mississippi.) Meat and bean chilis like this one call for a larger tomato element.

Now, if you, Kittish, are the author of this recipe, I do apologize for the savaging I gave it. Not that it wasn't deserved, mind you, for it was. But if you ask me my opinion of something, you better be ready for my brutally honest opinion. It's kinda what I do. However, if I know that you are the creator of said something, I can often word it somewhat...nicer. I still would loathe this recipe, but I would try to be gentler in my criticism. So I do hope that this travesty is not your doing.

That being said....

I said this recipe is beyond saving, and it is. But could an apple pie bison chili recipe work? Yes. Yes, I do believe it could. It would take someone who is not just a chili lover, which I am, but also a fine chili cook, which I am, a lover of apple pie, which I am, and who is very knowledgable about baking, which I....am not.

Because this idea needs the knowledge of someone steeped in the fundamentals of cooking AND baking, of making savory dishes AND desserts. Someone who is not afraid to try something new, different, and potentially weird. Someone who is not afraid of their early attempts at such a dish turning out horrifyingly disgusting. Someone who is not afraid of tomatoes. (Sorry, mathnerd.) And someone who doesn't boil the shit out of meat.

If anyone tries to make the idea of this recipe work, let us know how it turns out.

And if anyone tries to make this actual recipe, please extend my condolences to your soon to be former friends who try it. And, of course, to the bison.

[Kittish]

No, no, I'm not the author.

Hmm, maybe I should give this another read through. Admittedly, I only skimmed it and just glancing down the list of ingredients seemed like it had some potential for being interesting. I like the use of apples and the apple cider and sweet-spicy is (to me anyhow) a viable flavor combination for a chili. Clearly I should have looked more closely.

As for the sponsoring bits, eh, I don't really register brand names. The author of this blog frequently comes up with odd and sometimes interesting ideas. I've gotten a couple of tested out and frequently used recipes from her.

[AccountingDrone]

Well, we are willing to try it but with beef not bison ... as we have it on hand, and the rest of the ingredients.

Not sure I would call anything without at least a pinch of cilantro and cumin a chili though - those are an amazingly large part of the flavor profile.

[Jester]

No, no, I'm not the author.

Thank goodness for that. I would have hated to have savaged something that badly only to discover it was yours. But I've gotta be honest, and that recipe is a flaming culinary train wreck.

Hmm, maybe I should give this another read through. Admittedly, I only skimmed it and just glancing down the list of ingredients seemed like it had some potential for being interesting. I like the use of apples and the apple cider and sweet-spicy is (to me anyhow) a viable flavor combination for a chili. Clearly I should have looked more closely.

The idea definitely has some potential. I am not at all opposed to some kind of crazy dessert chili or an even crazier fusion sweet-savory chili. But there's a fine line between crazy and completely psychotic, and this recipe runs through that line full speed with its arms flailing about, yelling "Red Rover, Red Rover, I'm coming over!" And then runs face first into the brick wall twenty yards beyond that line.

As for the sponsoring bits, eh, I don't really register brand names.

That was just a minor annoyance, and I could have lived with it had the recipe been worth more than Confederate money. I am not familiar with the author, so I'll take you at your word that she has other recipes worth making, but as this is my introduction to her, I have to say I'd view other recipes of hers with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Well, we are willing to try it but with beef not bison ... as we have it on hand, and the rest of the ingredients.

Go for it. Let us know how it turns out. But I have to ask, do you plan on following the entire recipe? Or are you going to make your own changes, like, say, not boiling meat for half an hour. Hey, if you do that, that's your choice, but I cringe at what the final results will probably be.

Not sure I would call anything without at least a pinch of cilantro and cumin a chili though - those are an amazingly large part of the flavor profile.

I'm going to agree and disagree with you. I am a big fan of both cilantro and cumin, and use them individually in many recipes, and both of them in chili. However, both have strong flavors, and might not work in all chilis, depending on what you're going for. I can't remember if we used either of them in the white seafood chili, to be honest. (I say "we" because that chili was a collaborative effort between a friend and myself.) I would understand not using one or both of them in a dessert style chili, especially one that uses cinnamon, nutmeg, and cardamom, as all of those have very distinctive flavors as well, and I could see them clashing with the cilantro and/or cumin.

A note on cinnamon: many chili cooks like using cinnamon in their chili. Many also like using corn or carrots. I do not use any of these in chili, and don't generally care for chilis that do (though if used judiciously the cinnamon might well not be obvious to the palate), but these are simply ingredients that fall into the personal preference area of chili cooking. Just because I don't care for an ingredient--or do care for it--doesn't mean I'm right. Chili is both subjective and widely varying, and the only right or wrong is in the final taste, my earlier critique of the recipe in question notwithstanding. In short, if it works, if it works. Personally, I can't see that particular recipe working, but as always, I reserve the right to be completely, horribly and embarrassingly wrong.

Even with boiled meat.

[Kittish]

So now I've read over the recipe as posted more carefully. Many of your points I agree with, Jester.

A few though, such as tomato. I think it's possible that the apples would work out to be a nice replacement for them and their flavor is going to complement the spice profile a lot.

I'm thinking I'm going to try this, with some specific changes, for our gaming group in a month or two. I'll add sweet chili peppers and a little bit of hot chili, and probably fiddle with proportions of other spices. I'll probably also use ground lamb instead of bison, it's much easier to find in my area. No beans, mostly because of personal preferences of the people I'll be feeding.

And I'm for damn sure not going to be bringing it to a boil at any point. Probably cook it at a nice, slow simmer for 3 or 4 hours. (Slow simmer is seeing a small bubble break the surface once every few minutes.)

[Jester]

My biggest issue was the boiled meat. That is just wrong on so many levels, not just in the chili arena.

As for peppers and tomatoes, while I'd be skeptical, I would be open to chili recipes without them, though I'd be more open to tomatoless chili than pepperless chili, considering the name and all. I've actually made tomatoless chili, but chili without peppers seems somehow wrong. Not boiled meat wrong, but still wrong.

So, upon further review, I have to say the linked recipe is not a chili. Not because of my opinions, but because of the very definition and history of chili itself. And upon further review, I'm not actually sure anyone could make a pepperless chili and have it still be chili.

I look forward to your report on your version of this recipe. Let me know if you have any questions or need to bounce some ideas off of someone.

[mathnerd]

I made a chili not too long ago with over ripe strawberries bathed in balsamic vinegar as my tomato replacement. That particular combo worked for salsa, so I tried it with the chili. It was okayish. It worked well enough that I'm willing to try it again with some tweaks.

[Jester]

We'll, mathnerd, you know from experience that you can replace tomatoes with roasted red peppers. That would certainly work for chili.

[mathnerd]

I didn't have red peppers and I had a couple ponds of strawberries that needed to be used.

[AccountingDrone]

Go for it. Let us know how it turns out. But I have to ask, do you plan on following the entire recipe? Or are you going to make your own changes, like, say, not boiling meat for half an hour. Hey, if you do that, that's your choice, but I cringe at what the final results will probably be.

My biggest issue was the boiled meat. That is just wrong on so many levels, not just in the chili arena.
.

<shudder> We decided to make 2 versions, one boiled and one simmered properly.

Otherwise, the only change is beef instead of bison as we have beef but not the bison. I simply do not understand people boiling meat, other than as we have discussed previously the break in real cooking that happened in the 20th century thanks to the Great Depression and the woman going into the work force and needing to get food onto the table fast [and frequently on a crappy budget or dealing with rationing.]

I didn't have red peppers and I had a couple ponds of strawberries that needed to be used.

Having more than enough experience with medieval and ethnic cooking the idea of fruit or sweet spices in a meat dish is not too odd to me, but I probably would have served the strawberries as a dessert - strawberry shortcake or processed into a coulis and on angel food cake appeals to me.

[mathnerd]

It actually didn't turn out to badly. I use strawberries and assorted spices to make a salsa that winds up tasting quite close to tomato salsa. I made some tweaks to that for the chili. If I do it again, I'd make some additional changes, but overall it wasn't a bad substitute.

[AccountingDrone]

Well, I took one for the team.

We made it with the only change beef for bison, I am not going to pay premium prices to ruin bison.

Smelled wonderful - but being into medieval and middle eastern cooking the idea of sweet spices and fruit with meat is not unusual to me.

Tastewise. Um. Well, I have eaten worse. Sweet, to me almost candy sweet. Texture is mushy ground meat. We used the soft cider rather than hard cider or apple juice. Well - I would not make it like this way ever again, but if presented with it at someones house, it is able to be eaten politely.

What I would do to improve it?

Remove the minute amount of sugar. It does not need it at all.

Swap out the apple for non-pureed pumpkin - or half the apples.

Double the beans. I like a nice veggie full chili. Not that I have anything against just meat and spices, but for regular daily eating I like lots of veggies and legumes.

Instead of ground use fine dice of meat. Having an actual texture is nice. Not that there is anything wrong with ground meat, but we like fine dice around here. And if we were fixing the oversweetness, we probably would go for bison or ostrich.

And I would make it a bit spicier - a little kick would be nice. This was just fairly bland.

I still really would not consider this a chili. More like a filling for a medieval meat pie.

[Jester]

I would hope you also wouldn't boil the meat. That is, after all, why it was so mushy. Because I've cooked with ground meat before, and had it not be mushy. But then, boiling it for half an hour may have had something to do with it.

No, I am not going to let that one go. That is one of the worst culinary sins I've ever seen or heard of. And no, I am not blaming AD, as she simply followed the recipe as presented, to see if it would actually work. Kudos to you for that, AD. But the author of this recipe.....they are most certainly to blame. Meh.

[AccountingDrone]

I would hope you also wouldn't boil the meat. That is, after all, why it was so mushy. Because I've cooked with ground meat before, and had it not be mushy. But then, boiling it for half an hour may have had something to do with it.

No, I am not going to let that one go. That is one of the worst culinary sins I've ever seen or heard of. And no, I am not blaming AD, as she simply followed the recipe as presented, to see if it would actually work. Kudos to you for that, AD. But the author of this recipe.....they are most certainly to blame. Meh.

Got the hunk of cow, some NYS 20 oz cooking apples [extra tart and huge], some Woodchuck granny smith cider and butternut squash to stand in for pumpkin. Am going to give it a shot, with double the beans and one of Penzy's hotter chili powers [we normally keep a fairly mild one for normal use.] Will update after it is done tomorrow.

I have hopes for the modified version. If it turns out decent I might actually give it a shot with bison or venison. I think it might be really good with venison or wild boar.