Family troubles

[Tuxian]

So, I have an issue, and wanted to just get some opinions on it from other people, to see if this really does look as ugly to others as it does to me.

I just purchased my first (and hopefully only) house on Thursday of last week, after looking for most of a year, and finally finding and putting in a bid back in late April.

I didn't have all the funds I would need to make the downpayment, so I asked my parents if they could 'gift' me the rest of the cash for the house. So they did, and I got everything together, and we closed without a hitch.

Now, I'd been living in a one-bedroom apartment, by myself, for almost 8 years by now. And as I'm sure most of you who've done that kind of thing are aware, things tend to... pile up. Not to a ridiculous degree, but far more stuff than one ever really thinks about until it comes time to move. So I hired a moving company, and they came out Monday to help me move the furniture, and the stuff I had boxed. I still have a week or so until my lease at the apartment is up, so I planned to spend that time getting the rest of my stuff, mainly books and clothes, things that were _not_ a first-priority when packing boxes.

As always seems to happen, I forgot to have the moving company load three things I should have had them get: my bicycle, a dvd shelf, and a tall halogen lamp. My parents (who have been in and out of town for the last month and a half, leaving me to do everything myself) came over to help me move those three things. And when they saw the remains of things in my apartment, my father blew up at me, and told me he couldn't believe I had THAT much stuff I hadn't packed in boxes. I told him that I wasn't going to just leave it, that I was going to get everything either dumped in the trash, or moved to the house. His reply? "It's physically IMPOSSIBLE for you to do that." Um, what?

Then, to rub salt in the wound, he goes on to say "I didn't raise you to be like this." Which is rich, coming from a man who, to this day, has one bedroom in his house stuffed full of stuff that stacked five feet high, collects newspapers like they were lined with gold, and has only a narrow path through the front living room of the house, because it is also filled with stacks and stacks of books and other things.

He then goes out and drives off, leaving my mother and me behind, dumps the three things I'd asked for his help with at my house and leaves them there. I nearly had a breakdown over this with my mother, and eventually just got my car loaded up, took her home, and then came home myself.

I went out to dinner a bit later, and come back to a message from my father, that he feels that I should have been having him and mom help me the last two days while they're in town, and that they would cancel their trip they're leaving on tomorrow to help me, but for some reason he can't figure out I don't want their help. That if he'd seen my apartment he'd never have given me the money for the house, that my house will be just as cluttered in a year's time. That me buying a new dining table, with the money I had left over, was a big "Fuck you!" to him and my mother, because they didn't think I needed one.

Then he really went for a low blow, and brought up the trouble I had when I went away to college for my freshman year, and wound up with a stark case of depression. He said that he has barely believed me since then, and that this just reinforced that belief. That there's no way I can get all that stuff cleaned out before time, and that I'll be paying thousands for them to re-carpet the apartment. Of course, had he asked, I could have told him that they always replace the carpet in apartments that go vacant, as I see them out there almost every month re-carpeting, and I doubt that they charge every tenant moving out for it.

Then as a final passive-aggressive move, he ends with "If I'm lucky, I'll die in my sleep tonight."

I'm just so furious over this, it is getting hard for me to think straight. I have never asked him for ANYTHING in 8 years. I've made so, scrimped and saved, and kept my bills paid and a roof over my head by my own efforts. I am half-convinced that part of the reason that I let the cleaning and such go in my apartment and let so much clutter build up was a return of the depression I faced when I was in college. The other half of me is so relieved to be out of that place, because I have so many bad memories of things that I went through over the last 8 years there.

So here's the issue at hand: I did promise to pay him back the money he loaned me for the house. But aside from that... I feel absolutely ZERO desire to ever see his face again right now. That if he's going to treat me like that, I don't need him in my life dragging me down. I'll go to his house while they're out of town, get the things of mine that are still there, and never darken his presence again.

[Teefies2]

I feel for you. My mother is passive-aggressive like that, and blames me for when my kids make what are, to her, wrong choices. My kids are adults. But it's always that condescending tone "you should make them" ... whatever they are doing wrong in her eyes.

More to the point of your post, I have lived in my current house 9 years and DREAD cleaning it out when I move, which I will be doing just as soon as I am able to afford a new place (lots of medical bills keep getting in the way of me saving).

You're right, they always replace the carpets in apartments that go vacant, but my experience has been that they ALWAYS take it out of the renter's deposit, no matter how long/short it's been. I once lived in a place one year - that landlord charged me for repainting (even though it wasn't repainted when I moved in), the carpet (which wasn't replaced before I moved in) and changing the locks. My deposit? $400. What I got back? $18. WTF?

[Seshat]

Surprise at the amount of stuff still to be moved is reasonable, especially if he was expecting you only to have a couple of carloads plus the things you asked for help with. A strange comment as a result of that surprise is reasonable, and perhaps even a temporary grumpiness. Some people don't handle surprise well.


Ongoing misbehaviour and grumpiness is not.


What you now need to do is make a rational decision about how you want to handle this. Get your emotion out of the way, and let your intellect deal with it. I find that writing a letter (that's never sent), or viciously attacking a punching bag (or a rug that needs beating, or a pillow that needs fluffing), or other emotional venting really helps.

Then ... think. Factor your emotions in among your thoughts.

Is your father actually toxic to you?
If so, is his toxicity something you can learn to become immune to?
Or something you can retrain?
If not, is his behaviour something you can choose to ignore?

As an example of retraining toxic behaviour: Bast's father used to treat her the same way as an adult as he did when she was a child; criticising her severely and scolding her for any decisions she made that he didn't like.
When Bast analysed what was happening, she chose to stand up to him. She told him she would no longer tolerate such behaviour from him: she was willing to be his friend, but not his punching bag. If he was willing to interact with her as he would to his friends, she would be happy to be around him.
So the very next time he started behaving like that to her, she kissed her mother goodbye, did NOT say goodbye to him, and got in her car and drove off. And the next time. She's still waiting for a third such occasion - he learned his lesson.

Becoming immune to toxic behaviour is more difficult: it's a change in attitude you make inside yourself. You have to not just accept, but believe, that their behaviour is inappropriate, and is their problem, not yours. Handling the behaviour, however, can be your problem.
It's a lot like the social skillset that many people in the caring professions have to learn; the skills that enable them to gently and kindly treat a patient who is senile and exposes himself as part of the senile behaviour but genuinely no longer understands that it's inappropriate.
Becoming immune means accepting that their behaviour is not your responsibility, all you are responsible for is how you adapt to react to it.

Choosing to ignore inappropriate behaviour is - well, a lot like becoming immune to toxic behaviour; but if it's not something you have been trained from childhood to be vulnerable to (as in most toxic behaviour parent/child cases), it's much easier.

[Jester]

"Hey Dad, go fuck yourself."

That being said, take the time you'll need to get out of the old place and into the new, which will be considerable. Throw yourself into that for a while, and just put your father out of your thoughts. Either he'll pull his head out of his ass or he won't, but either way, you'll be better able to decide how to handle him once you've calmed down from this initial emotional state. It may be to decide to have a rational talk with him, or to distance yourself from him, or to stand up to him and tell him what's what, but however you choose to deal with him, you'll be doing so from a more rational and less emotional standpoint.

[Sapphire Silk]

Yeowch.

A couple of things.

First: when you loan money to a relative, always consider it a gift. If you want to maintain relations with your relative, getting worked up over money is a sure way to wind up estranged. Your dad forgot this basic rule.

Second: when you loan/gift money to someone, once the money is in their hands it is out of your control. You cannot and have no right to dictate how it is used. If you don't think the person you are giving money to will use it the way they say or the way you think they should, then don't gift it or loan it. Your dad forgot this basic rule.

Third: When someone loans you or gives you money they are likely to forget these basic rules. If you want to maintain the relationship (especially if you might need their help again in the future) you have to grit your teeth and suck up that you might not get treated well. In other words, pick your battles.

Tuxian, I understand your pain. I think you have a right to be hurt and angry. I also don't think you did anything wrong buying a new table. Why wouldn't you want nice furniture for your new place? However, you should not react to that pain right now. Give yourself time to cool down and think rationally. Give your dad time to cool off as well. He might rethink things after he has calmed down. If that's not his usual pattern, go through your mother if you want to talk it out and try and reconcile.

[MoonCat]

Just gonna throw one thought out: Your dad is reacting to your moving out. He's losing control over you and your life, and you are demonstrating that you are an adult, a mature, independent person living your own life. This upsets his equilibrium - a part of his world is changing, he feels like he's losing control of it.

I'm guessing he hates change, and feels he has little control over certain things. These are some of the reasons that people let things pile up in their home (as he has). Trust me - I have some experience with this.

You didn't do anything wrong. Your dad is reacting emotionally to something that is out of his control, and he may not be able (or willing) to recognize and acknowledge this. I agree with what Seshat says: You may need to renegotiate your relationship with him, he has to accept that YOU make the decisions for your life.

[yeahwhatev]

Actually mooncat, OP stated that they had been living on their own for sometime. The sticking point was the housekeeping, according to the Father.

My opinion is that the OP has to maintain control of the relationship. If the Father is going to throw temper tantrums, do not involve him in plans. When he asks why, state the bad behavior. Keep calm, keep control. "I do not appreciate what you just said. If it happens again, I am ending the conversation." "HOW DARE Y.." ~click~

If Tuxian is already at the point of never wanting to deal with the Father, do it and do not look back. Set personal limits, keep them and move on. Families have hierarchies, parents deserve respect and deference. That does NOT entitle them to live your life or abuse you. If you agree with the complaints, but not the method of delivery, act on BOTH.

[cewfa]

I have an older brother who is somewhat like your dad. There was a series of events in my family that led to a conversation where he was pissed off because I could emotionally handle my mother's wedding. OK, fair enough, but there is this to consider:

The wedding was in 1997.
I was 11 in 1997.
I have Aspergers Syndrome

I told him to go fuck himself and to get over it, and we have had limited contact since, save for a time that I stayed with him. At the last family get together, he and his wife didn't say one word to me. That is OK, because until they can get their crap together and treat me with respect they can blow me.

ETA: I guess I should tie this into your situation instead of making it about my own. I realize that that is easier said than done, and this was a buildup of the last several years. In the past I have tried everything I could to seek his approval. It may be a situation where you may never get your father's full approval.

[Seshat]

Indeed. Take some time in the next few months to train yourself to understand and accept that you will never get your father's full approval. Or, for that matter, anyone else's.

If you ever get anyone's complete and unreserved approval, either they have unconditional love for you, or you're making yourself into their doormat. The former is healthy, the latter is very, very unhealthy for both parties. Check on the situation. If you've got the unconditional love, GREAT! It's rare, and very, very precious.

Anyway: never expect to get anyone's full approval. It's incredibly rare. Heck, I don't even have Toth's and Bast's full approval all the time, especially when I'm slacking on exercise and my muscles are atrophying as a result. And I have a very real and very strong love from those two!

So .. yah. Try to train yourself to accept that you won't get your parents' full approval. Especially once you work to become fully and truly yourself. Part of that is probably going to have to be coming up with your own benchmarks for who and what you want to be.
Common benchmarks include religious codes and honour codes, but don't rush it. Consider using the codes from a religion you find appropriate as a temporary set of benchmarks while you work on it. One note: while you might find something suitable in a short space of time, you might end up spending years, or even decades, trying to finalise it.

[Gizmo]

Currently not talking to my mother whilst owing her money due to a house move at the moment too. (Thread in Off topic if you want to look back).

I'll be the voice of slight unreason here: shut them out for now until its all simmered down.

I will pay back the money I owe but until then (which should be soon) I'm leaving it for her to contact me via only a few routes that I haven't blocked. Day to day access to my life has been removed.

As for the depression related comments? If they continue I would say "you aren't me and you don't get to judge. You aren't happy with that? There is the exit door to my life. I won't listen to you harping about it."

Quick way to get stuff from place to place btw? and provide storage after? Get some of those deep wheeled boxes. put it over in batches. Just make sure that you can get them up or down stairs if need be and lift them into the car.

[Tuxian]

I've been making daily runs back and forth to the apartment, filling my trunk and my back seat each time, and working on sweeping/cleaning up and taking out bags and bags of trash. I admit, I let the housekeeping go, for various reasons, but mainly because I was in such a bad funk that I couldn't be _bothered_ to clean most of the time. I was in a rut of 'wake up, go to work, come home, play video games until I can't stay awake anymore, sleep, repeat' most days.

And yes, I've been living on my own for about 8 years now. First at my apartment, and now at my house. My dad was mad because he felt that investing in a table, with _my money_, since I spent the money he gave (as a gift, and I have the signed letter to prove it) me on the down-payment for the house, was a bad thing since I didn't have a lawnmower yet. Well, the way I see it... I've got more paychecks coming, and I'll be able to afford a lawnmower. Or, I could see about hiring the teenager who lives across the street that I saw out doing their yard the other day and see how much he'll charge me to do mine as well, until I can get one.

The main reason that I can think of, as to why it bothers him: He is more interested in how my house looks from outside, than how it will work on the inside. Yes, I did have a functional table. That seated 4 people. It was something I got at the local thrift store back when I moved into the apartment. It is nowhere near big enough for the types of board games my friends and I like to play, so why not buy one that IS big enough? I had enough left over to pay half of it, and financed the rest at a one-year no interest same-as-cash. Not that it will take me that long, mind you.

He worries about things he can't control, and when he doesn't like the answers he gets, or thinks that someone isn't listening to his 'advice' no matter how off topic or bad it is, that they're insulting him somehow.

I'm still unsure what I want to do, but it helps that he and my mother are out of town for the next week. I plan to make trips to the apartment every night after work (since I go back to work tomorrow, and work is only about 10 min away from the apartment). I should be able to get the rest of the stuff I want to keep transferred over, since it's mostly books at this point (got my glasses today, only have a few more dishes left, but they're not 'urgent must-have' right now), and I can fit a lot of stuff into my trunk and back seat.

[MoonCat]

Ooops, sorry Tuxian, I did indeed miss the part about living on your own before.

Getting your stuff out of the apt. while your parents are out of town sounds like the way to go. Congrats on the house, by the way!

[Seshat]

He worries about things he can't control, and when he doesn't like the answers he gets, or thinks that someone isn't listening to his 'advice' no matter how off topic or bad it is, that they're insulting him somehow.

If he does this to the point where it's interfering with his life and/or his relationships, then it's potentially a symptom of one of several mental illnesses. If he's willing to see it and seek help, things could well improve between you.

Failing that, YOU seek help to deal with it. There are many family-of-patients support groups, some websites, and mental health specialists in your area should know of local resources. Heck, your family doctor may well know of resources in your area.

If he's sick, then treat his symptoms as .. well, symptoms. If someone with a cold sneezes on you suddenly, you don't think of it as a personal thing. If someone with gastro throws up while you're talking to them, you just deal with it impersonally - and mop their face with a damp cloth and sympathise with them. You know and understand that the symptom has nothing to do with YOU.

Mental health issues are the same way. If your father has a mental health issue about his 'worrying about things that aren't under his control', then when he does that, respond as if it's a symptom.
Hmmm.
Okay. Here's an experience that's an analogy, one that everyone should be able to understand.
My nephew was being born. My niece knew me, but I wasn't one of her 'core' family - not one of the people she saw almost every day. I was trying to care for her, but she gave me a constant stream of questions:
"Where's Mummy?"
"In the hospital, darling."
"Where's Daddy?"
"In the hospital..."
"Where's Nanna?"
"Where's Grandpa?"
"Where's Mummy?"
"Where's Daddy?"
..... on and on until I got desperate and called my father for advice.
It was NOT her fault. She could sense that something important was happening, she was barely two, and none of the four adults who were most critical to her were around. She didn't have a strong enough attachment to me to feel properly safe; only enough to keep her from actual panic.

That didn't mean I could ignore her very genuine need. But it also meant that it wasn't anything I was doing wrong. I just had to do my best to keep her comfortable, distracted, occupied...


In the case of your father, he has some sort of problem regarding letting go of things not under his control. You can choose to ignore it; but if you choose (freely choose) to try to help him, you can try a number of resolutions.
Your analogies are the ways a trainer uses to get a dog to let go of something he's holding and wants.
- Distraction. (Direct his attention away from the item of desire: dog trainers offer something the dog also wants, preferably something he wants more.)
- Reward. (When he does 'let go', give him something he wants; such as time with you.)

For other ideas, the 'dog training' command most often used is 'drop it': you can google 'drop it dog train' and get analogous techniques to the ones you might use.



If anyone wants to know: my niece's grandfather came home after the phone call, so that one of her 'security' people was there for her. And she loved her baby brother. (Still does, for that matter!)

[protege]

I feel for you. My mother is passive-aggressive like that, and blames me for when my kids make what are, to her, wrong choices. My kids are adults. But it's always that condescending tone "you should make them" ... whatever they are doing wrong in her eyes.

My mom is like that as well. But, she has some OCD and control issues. She wants to order everyone around, and then gets upset when people ignore her "orders." Sorry Mom, I'm an *adult* and I *don't* live in your house and I don't have to obey your rules. That means I don't have to do shit.

For example, like the OP, I have to hear about how "messy" my house is every time she stops by. There's too much "clutter" in the living room; that I really need to "get rid of things" in the kitchen." Last I checked, there's not much in the living room--the usual couch/recliner/TV stand/end tables/DVD racks. Same story with the kitchen. It's a galley-style kitchen. Other than my table and chairs...there's nothing in there I can remove to "get rid of things!" The only other things that are in both rooms, are a couple of diecast model cars in front of the TV, and one of the rubber duckies I bought when the 40-foot-tall duckie was here last summer.

Other than that, her main gripe is that I don't keep the house to her standards. That is, I'm not retired, so I don't have time to keep the place spotless. Plus, I have cats, one of whom is a Maine Coon. Those of you who have long-haired kittehs know that they shed. I try to keep the carpets clean, but he sheds. Mom wasn't amused when I mentioned "You know, they live here...you don't."

Secondary gripe, is my yard. For 8 years, I've been trying to get it into shape. Problem is, I'm just one guy! I get home from work, and I'm tired. I'll cut the grass when it needs it, but for most other things, I simply don't have the time.

Tuxian, I know what it's like...and it (pardon my French)...fucking sucks. Some people simply cannot handle the fact that they're not in control any more...and will attempt to make others feel like you're insulting them for not taking their advice.

[Seanette]

Other than that, her main gripe is that I don't keep the house to her standards. That is, I'm not retired, so I don't have time to keep the place spotless. Plus, I have cats, one of whom is a Maine Coon. Those of you who have long-haired kittehs know that they shed. I try to keep the carpets clean, but he sheds. Mom wasn't amused when I mentioned "You know, they live here...you don't."

I used to have a Maine Coon mix, and I think my current cat, a short-hair Siamese mix, sheds even more than her predecessor did.