Legitimate or scammers?

[NecessaryCatharsis]

I got a phone call today, from a very rude woman who didn't really identify herself well, went something like this:

Me: Hello
Woman: Hi is this (my name)
Me: Yes
Woman: I am calling about an outstanding debt, I need you state your birthdate and Social Insurance Number for the record
Me: No
Woman: I need you to confirm these things to make sure of your identity before I discuss your debt with you
Me: No, I'm not giving out personal information over the phone to someone I don't know. You called me, you can tell me things
Woman: I already have all this information, I just need you to confirm it, legally I can't discuss this debt with you until I confirm your identity
Me: I'm still not giving out personal information to a stranger over the phone
Woman: Well you are going to be sorry when this is on your credit forever, you will be calling and having to pay even more to sort it out later with late fees and all. You will never be able to get a credit card or a mortgage again until you confirm this information and get this sorted out
Me: Okay, so was that all today?
Woman: This isn't the end of this
Me: Okay, thank you, goodbye

The same number called me back 8 more times in the next hour, but I didn't answer it again, after such an unproductive first chat, I couldn't be bothered.

As much as seems like a terrible idea to give out that information over the phone, I have been expecting a collections call, as I left an unpaid phone bill about 5 years ago, and have been waiting to hear from Rogers ever since. Hoping to hear from them actually, I would like to get to go to small claims court with my bills and paperwork and the recordings I made of the last few phone calls I made to them, and see what a judge thinks of their 'policies'. And I do want to get a mortgage, I plan on trying to qualify in less than 2 years.

Has anybody worked collections? Is it normal to call people out of nowhere and demand information from them? Should I answer and try to find out what she wants, or is giving her anything just asking for trouble (identity theft etc)?

[retro]

I don't know about the US system but it could be either a scammer or a genuine call. Obviously a credit agency doesn't want to go giving your personal credit information to anyone that phones, but on the other hand they have to be careful.

I'd have thought something more along the lines of asking for a third, seventh and ninth number so they find out what they need without getting the whole number.

[Javarod]

I'd be suspicious even if its a valid debt. IIRC they are required by law to identify themselves and the person they're looking for by name, and you're not required to give out your SSN (technically its illegal for anyone except the SSA to use it). There have been some scummy bill collectors caught trying to collect debt past the statute of limitations (7 years for most debt in the US), getting you on the hook for it is mostly a matter of activating it, IE getting you to confirm that the debt is yours. Definitely don't give them anything that they ask for without a really good explanation from them and confirming what they tell you for yourself.

[MoonCat]

Um, NO. In the past, when I was young and stupid (I'm not young anymore ) I had collections calls. So did my mom (she wasn't stupid, just very depressed). I have NEVER had a collections worker ask me to give my SS number over the phone, and as far as I know, neither did my mom.

They asked for me by name; when I said "Speaking," they proceeded to discuss the debt with me and we worked out a payment plan, which didn't take effect until they mailed me something & I signed it and mailed it back.

If they call again, tell them to send you the relevant information in the mail. You can request that they contact you through the mail ONLY. That is your right. Once you have something on company letterheard, you can research the company online and see if they are legit. If you have the phone number they called you from, you can Google that and see what comes up.

I just would not give some random stranger that info over the phone. Lots of people have debt; it's very possible a scammer was dialing random numbers, figuring sooner or later she'd hit one and convince the person to give out that info.

You could also ask for her name, the company name and HQ phone number. Then call them and ask to speak to this person (after confirming that such a company exists, first). But frankly I'd tell them to mail the info to me and get back to them only if I confirmed they were legit.

Pretty good chance you would never hear from this person again.

[cleorose]

This is what I did with our debt collectors. You say " I am NOT allowed to discuss personal financial matters over the phone. If you feel that I owe you a debt you can send me proof of said debt to me. "

If they ask for your address, I say I assume since you know the phone number the address should be available as well. Send us a legal document verifying the debt. Original debt. Not the cockamamie fees and charges they like to add.

If they DO send you a document about the debt, make sure you are within the Statue of limitations. A lot of states are 3-5 years. Only a few are 7 years. DO NOT ADMIT TO OWING ANYTHING. Don't give any ANY personal information. I don't even admit to my name. I most certainly will never give birthdate, social, or any information that I believe that any legit debt collector would already have.

[Sapphire Silk]

Woman: I am calling about an outstanding debt, I need you state your birthdate and Social Insurance Number for the record
Me: No
Woman: I need you to confirm these things to make sure of your identity before I discuss your debt with you
Me: No, I'm not giving out personal information over the phone to someone I don't know. You called me, you can tell me things

Has anybody worked collections? Is it normal to call people out of nowhere and demand information from them? Should I answer and try to find out what she wants, or is giving her anything just asking for trouble (identity theft etc)?

You did exactly the right thing. Some legit bill collectors do this. My hospital does it. I refuse to play 20 questions; I handle it the way you did for the very reason you did. It could be a scam.

What you tell them is, "From here on out all communications are to be in writing. Send me a letter detailing what the debt is, when it was generated, what is owed, and why you think I owe it. I am not admitting I owe you anything. Send me written documentation of the debt and I will investigate it. Do not call me by phone again."

If it's legit, if they have your phone number they have your address.

Pull your credit report. If it's over 3 years old in many states they can't force you to pay. Check your state's laws on that. It can stay on your credit report for 7 years, so if you're getting ready to buy a house you may end up paying it to clear up your report.

But some debt is zombie debt that gets sold and resold multiple times. The law in the US is they must be able to prove you owe the debt. If they can't prove it, you don't have to pay. It may still stay on your credit report.

Don't admit to anything; the minute you do the clock starts ticking all over again.

Be firm, be polite, make them prove it. Do not give them any identifying information over the phone in case it is a scammer.

[Jester]

I have had something similar, though not as rude, going on in my life in the last few months. The conversations usually go something like this....

ME: "Hello?"
THEM: "Hello. May I please speak to [Jester Dude]?"
ME: "Speaking."
THEM: "Yes, Mr. [Dude], this is Blahna Blahsky with Blah Blah Inc. I have a personal matter to discuss with you. Can you please confirm for me that you are indeed [Jester Dude] and the last four numbers of your social security number?"
ME: "No. I will confirm nothing until you tell me what this is about."
THEM: "As I said, it is a personal matter."
ME: "And as *I* said! I will not confirm any information over the phone until you tell me what this is about."

And it continues in a cycle until I finally hang up on them. They used to call me at work, until I made it abundantly, verbally, and descriptively clear to them that it was unacceptable for them to call me at work, period.

Now they will call my cell, and occasionally I will answer. And the cycle goes round and round. They won't tell me what it is about--not even the subject matter, forget the details--unless I confirm this or that. I won't confirm shit until they tell me what it is about.

End result: they can go fuck themselves. It is not a personal matter, as I don't know them, nor they me. It is clearly some sort of legal, financial, or business matter, but nothing important enough for them to write me or tell me in the most general of terms what the hell it s about. So, fuck 'em. If it's not that important to them, it sure as hell is not gonna be that important to me.

[BPFH]

Assuming:

• this is a legitimate call, and
• you're right about it being the 5-year-old unpaid Rogers bill

then depending on what province you're in, they may be statutorially barred from collecting on it. Ontario, I believe, has a limit of 2 years (formerly 6 years--how I know that is a long story).

[Dreamstalker]

I'd have thought something more along the lines of asking for a third, seventh and ninth number so they find out what they need without getting the whole number.

That's actually a good idea...

Every so often, I'll get a letter from some shady 'law firm' (not licensed to collect anything in my state) about a 'settlement offer' for a zombie debt...the original creditor flat out refused to discuss payment options. I wanted to pay when I had money, but they wouldn't let me. Now I don't have money and they want me to pay. I'm pretty sure that statute of limitations has expired for the original debt, not sure how it works if it's sold. I doubt they have the original contract, but I'm not even considering responding.

[dendawg]

In the past, when I was young and stupid (I'm not young anymore )

So now, you're just stupid? *ducks*

Hey, you're the one that brought it up!

[dalesys]

So now, you're just stupid? *ducks*

If I had another brain cell...


It'd be lonely.

[taxguykarl]

Back to the OP, I agree that this smells like a scam to reset the statute of limitations.
The caller probably has not much more information than you do, NC.
I recommend looking up the address of that agency (this sounds the most like a collection agency or junk debt buyer) and send a certified letter demanding details of this debt and proof that it is yours. In the US at least it is their obligation under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act.
Also look up the statue of limitations for their province and yours, this may be a time-barred debt that the buyer acquired for pennies on the dollar.
I agree with the refusals to deal with this any way but in writing. Remember the lawyers' cliche: If it's not written, it didn't happen.
Also check your credit reports: verify that this is even being reported. Her threats are a classic bluff.

[Sapphire Silk]

That's actually a good idea...

Every so often, I'll get a letter from some shady 'law firm' (not licensed to collect anything in my state) about a 'settlement offer' for a zombie debt...the original creditor flat out refused to discuss payment options. I wanted to pay when I had money, but they wouldn't let me. Now I don't have money and they want me to pay. I'm pretty sure that statute of limitations has expired for the original debt, not sure how it works if it's sold. I doubt they have the original contract, but I'm not even considering responding.

Yup. Been there, done that. I did eventually pay, but only after the debt had been resold a couple more times, and I was trying to clean up my credit report to buy a house.

Here's the thing. Zombie debt can and does get reported to the credit agencies long after the seven years it is supposed to stop. If you dispute it, credit agencies do nothing more than contact the agency and say, "Is this a valid debt?" The agency says, "Yup," and the clock resets anyway. It's not legal but they do it.

So you have to send a demand letter to the agency demanding details on what the debt was, how much was originally owed and under what terms, and to give you details on why it is a debt you still owe.

After these debts have been sold a few times, they can't do that. They can't provide an itemized bill or describe what services were provided. That's the key; they HAVE to be able to tell you in detail the services provided on the debt. Once you get them to admit that in writing, you submit it with your dispute paperwork and it goes in your file. It still might stay on your report, but it might help you with future creditors.

Be careful of one other thing: in some states, creditors can legally charge you interest on the debt. California is one of those states. It can rack up the charges over time, so be careful. If you legitimately owe something in such a state, make payment arrangements before it goes to collections.

[MoonCat]

So now, you're just stupid? *ducks*

Hey, you're the one that brought it up!

Cookies to you, you got it! (I was joking but hey, we all have stupid moments...)

[Geek King]

Here's the thing. Zombie debt can and does get reported to the credit agencies long after the seven years it is supposed to stop. If you dispute it, credit agencies do nothing more than contact the agency and say, "Is this a valid debt?" The agency says, "Yup," and the clock resets anyway. It's not legal but they do it.

If they do this, you should re-dispute it ASAP, as that forces the credit agency to do more digging, and the creditor has to provide actual proof.