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  • Magicians and shuffling cards...

    If magicians who are good at card tricks can force cards through shuffles and whatnot, couldn't they do the same if they were playing a card game, so that they could get favorable cards every time they shuffled and/or dealt?

    And why not have a magician who is good at card tricks be a dealer in Vegas??
    Last edited by mjr; 07-30-2015, 02:04 PM.
    Skilled programmers aren't cheap. Cheap programmers aren't skilled.

  • #2
    On the first one: They certainly could. I know a couple amateur magicians, and it seems that they just generally *don't*. The magic tricks are their passion, and, for many, doing it as a method of cheating simply wouldn't be fun.

    On the second: Casinos know what to look for in this sort of thing, and they maintain detailed records on players and employees who are known to be problematic. Once they're found out, they'll likely be thrown out ass first and blacklisted from every reputable place in town. After all, a dealer who did this sort of thing would make the casino/chain look bad, as if they were endorsing cheating (yes, the odds are always in the house's favor anyway, but this goes beyond that).
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    • #3
      Quoth EricKei View Post
      On the first one: They certainly could. I know a couple amateur magicians, and it seems that they just generally *don't*. The magic tricks are their passion, and, for many, doing it as a method of cheating simply wouldn't be fun.

      On the second: Casinos know what to look for in this sort of thing, and they maintain detailed records on players and employees who are known to be problematic. Once they're found out, they'll likely be thrown out ass first and blacklisted from every reputable place in town. After all, a dealer who did this sort of thing would make the casino/chain look bad, as if they were endorsing cheating (yes, the odds are always in the house's favor anyway, but this goes beyond that).
      All that makes very good sense! Especially the casino part.
      Skilled programmers aren't cheap. Cheap programmers aren't skilled.

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      • #4
        Most of the major casinos now use auto-shufflers for their dealers, so there's little chance for anyone to manipulate the decks in anyone's favour.

        Of course some casinos, usually off strip ones, still do hand shuffling (other than when the auto-shuffler malfunctions) as part of their appeal. Those ones tend to have very specific ways they are supposed to shuffle the decks, once more to minimize manipulation chances. Those ones are more open to Magician tricks I suppose, but it's minimized.

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        • #5
          Quoth Jetfire View Post
          Those ones tend to have very specific ways they are supposed to shuffle the decks, once more to minimize manipulation chances. Those ones are more open to Magician tricks I suppose, but it's minimized.
          Aren't those the ones who shuffle sort of like dominoes?

          I've seen that before. I think I saw it on a poker tourney on TV once.
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          • #6
            I know that certain card decks used in magic tricks are different than ones used for card games; they're marked or shaved on one side. We used to sell those decks at the Novelty Store. I'm fairly sure that using those types of cards at casinos is strictly forbidden.
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            • #7
              Quoth XCashier View Post
              I know that certain card decks used in magic tricks are different than ones used for card games; they're marked or shaved on one side. We used to sell those decks at the Novelty Store. I'm fairly sure that using those types of cards at casinos is strictly forbidden.
              You'd be surprised at the number of card tricks you can do with a standard deck.
              Skilled programmers aren't cheap. Cheap programmers aren't skilled.

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              • #8
                Ahem. Professional magician here.

                Can a magician cheat at a card game? Absofuckinglutely. The most honest card game you will ever see is if everyone in it is a magician, because no one will cheat, as they will probably all know what to look for. Ironically, the most crooked card game you will ever see is also if everyone in it is a magician, as those egotistical bastards can't resist trying to one up their colleagues.

                That being said, it is known among magicians that, if you are a professional magician, and a casino finds out that you are, they will politely ask you not to play at their tables. And they only ask politely once. One of the downsides of becoming a professional magician.

                mjr was actually on to something when he asked if they would make good dealers for casinos. Of course they would, but that risks the reputation of the casino if it is found out. Magicians and former magicians are often employed in casinos, but rather than at the tables, they are in security positions, because they know better than most what to look for with cheating, because they see and approach things differently.

                Quoth Jetfire View Post
                Most of the major casinos now use auto-shufflers for their dealers, so there's little chance for anyone to manipulate the decks in anyone's favour.
                A good magician will not in any way be phased by something as simplistic as an auto-shuffler, my friend. There are many ways around it, whether the magician is the dealer or one of the players. I am not on that level, mind you, but I certainly know some who are.

                Quoth Jetfire View Post
                Of course some casinos, usually off strip ones, still do hand shuffling (other than when the auto-shuffler malfunctions) as part of their appeal. Those ones tend to have very specific ways they are supposed to shuffle the decks, once more to minimize manipulation chances. Those ones are more open to Magician tricks I suppose, but it's minimized.
                In theory, yes. With a quality magician, not really. Again, I'm talking about magicians with abilities far beyond my own.

                Quoth XCashier View Post
                I know that certain card decks used in magic tricks are different than ones used for card games; they're marked or shaved on one side. We used to sell those decks at the Novelty Store. I'm fairly sure that using those types of cards at casinos is strictly forbidden.
                Forbidden, yes. But no magician with half a brain and a quarter ounce of talent would ever attempt cheating at a casino with them, or even at a card game, unless the other players are the simplest of rubes. A good card mechanic can cheat using YOUR deck*, and doesn't need to bother with rigged or trick decks. Such decks are good to learn the basics of magic on, but the majority of top tier magicians that I know view such decide in the same way a professional cyclists views their childhood training wheels. Honestly, if you get fleeced financially by a card magician, it is probably not going to be from a trick deck.

                *When I performed regularly at the restaurant, I would often suggest to people that they bring in their own decks of cards. My only request was that it was a relatively new deck, and not the one that had been sitting in the kitchen drawer for the last five years, getting thicker and more beat up with age. Many people called my bluff on this, bringing in their own deck. I sent them back out into the night, even more pissed off than when they'd been in the previous time. Because, let's be honest, a magician is not going to suggest something that will actually give you much chance of beating him. That would be foolish. So assume if a magician suggests it, he's already figured out multiple ways around it, whatever it is.
                Last edited by Jester; 07-31-2015, 01:40 AM.

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                • #9
                  Last time a magician asked me to pick a card, any card, I said wheel of fortune.
                  ludo ergo sum

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                  • #10
                    Quoth Jester View Post
                    Ahem. Professional magician here.
                    Ever had people try to mess up your tricks on purpose?

                    For instance, usually when you ask someone to pick a card, they do it from the middle. But what if they take a card from the very edge?? Can that mess up a trick?
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                    • #11
                      Quoth mjr View Post
                      Ever had people try to mess up your tricks on purpose?

                      For instance, usually when you ask someone to pick a card, they do it from the middle. But what if they take a card from the very edge?? Can that mess up a trick?
                      I think he already answered that.

                      Quoth Jester View Post
                      So assume if a magician suggests it, he's already figured out multiple ways around it, whatever it is.
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                      • #12
                        Quoth mjr View Post
                        Ever had people try to mess up your tricks on purpose?

                        For instance, usually when you ask someone to pick a card, they do it from the middle. But what if they take a card from the very edge?? Can that mess up a trick?
                        True enough, lordlundar, but I'll answer both of these questions directly anyway.

                        To the first question: yes, all the time. And when I say all the time, I mean just about any day that I perform. Rarely is it malicious, like someone slapping all the cards out of my hand to be an asshole, though stuff like that has happened. (And fuck those people, by the way.) But it is standard for people to try to "beat" magicians at their own game, even though most magicians aren't performing to fool you per sé, but to entertain you in some way, be it dramatic or comedic. (Obviously they need to fool you to succeed, but that's not their end goal, it's merely a method to achieve that end goal.)

                        And people will pick from wherever they pick from. Psychologists and others who study human behavior will tell you that people may be more likely to do this or that, or to choose this or that card, and statistically speaking, they are probably correct. Some cards are more popular than others, and a large number of people will probably go for one thing over another. But when you are performing, statistics and probability can only help you improve your odds in general; they can't help you pull off a certain trick against every individual. Maybe this woman has an affinity for the seven of clubs. Maybe that guy feels a compelling need to pick the third card from the bottom. Who knows? Our job as magicians is to entertain you, and if all we are doing is playing percentages, we are not going to very good. As I often say in my act, magicians can't guess....they've got to be right every time. (I usually say this in response to someone saying, "Now guess my card!")

                        Sure, we may try to do something a certain way. But as I've already said, a good magician, like any person good at their job, is prepared for things they don't even know they're prepared for.

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                        • #13
                          Quoth Jester View Post

                          A good magician will not in any way be phased by something as simplistic as an auto-shuffler, my friend. There are many ways around it, whether the magician is the dealer or one of the players. I am not on that level, mind you, but I certainly know some who are.
                          True, assuming the nefarious card manipulator is the dealer (since the player wouldn't touch the cards normally), the easiest way to defeat an autoshuffler is to make sure the key cards don't get in (or come out of) the shuffler in the first place, and play palmed cards instead of the cards from the shoe as needed. In a multiple deck game, most people aren't tracking enough to realize how often the Jack of Spades or Seven of Hearts has come out and if it matches the number of decks in play. (Even if its a single deck game). And that's just my own guessing view of how it could be done.

                          Considering the card manipulation pulled off by some magicians, that sort of palming/ditching/planting moves would be relatively trivial for most experienced slight of hand artists.

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                          • #14
                            I shouldn't have said magician, but card cheat or mechanic. Because, while they use many of the same skills, most magicians are not card cheats or mechanics, and vice versa. Magicians generally use their skills to entertain others, while card cheats and mechanics use their skills to swindle, cheat, and/or steal.

                            In any case, I will reiterate what I said above: a good mechanic is not going to be phased by something as simplistic as an auto-shufflers, even if they're not the dealer. Don't get me wrong, auto-shufflers cut down on a lot of cheating. But a professional card cheat will be working on ways--and finding them--to cheat even if they are not touching the deck being dealt. I am not even close to being on that level, mind you, but I have seen some magicians who, if they set their mind to it, could very well be devastating in this regard. I imagine card cheats are equally devious, though I am not personally acquainted with any myself, knowing them more through what they do and how they do it, how it dovetails with what we as magicians do, and the various stories other magicians have told me about their experiences with card cheats.

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                            Still A Customer."

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