A different jealousy issue

[Gerrinson]

I didn't want to threadjack Librarian's post, and I'm going through jealousy issues in my marriage right now, but from a different angle.

Important background: My wife's 1st husband cheated on her. With one of his coworkers. He then left her for said coworker. So, my wife, understandably has some issues tied to this.

The problem I'm facing is that after 6 1/2 years dating and 5 years of that living together we got married. It's been 51 weeks since we got married and her jealousy is starting to go off the charts. But it's not just jealousy, it's combined with basically complete apathy towards life on her part.

Of note, my wife also has only 1 real non-work friend outside of me. That friend is in her 30s, still lives with her parents, and spends her time either at church, reading HP fanfic, or watching anime. So, they are both really isolated people in general. Outside of work, they hang out together only 2 - 3 times a year, which is how they define friendship.

For the last few months, my wife's MO is: Come home from work, change into comfy clothes, claim the TV remote to watch cooking/craft shows while also claiming the laptop & the Kindle to read Harry Potter fanfic. Every night after work, all day weekends and holidays.

We're going on 4 months of this now. And for all of that time, my wife complains I don't 'spend enough time with her' where the spending of time is defined as sitting next to her on the couch during the aforementioned activities. I don't mind a few cooking shows, but hours on end just bores me. I have zero interest in HP fanfic. And if I try to watch a show that I actually like, she sits there and complains through the show effectively ruining my ability to just sit and enjoy it.

I've confronted her on the apathy and she has no interest in changing. It appears that now we are married, I should no longer have any interest in going out to dinner with my wife. Or going to the occasional movie. Or even wanting to spend time out with my friends - once a week, I game with the guys the way I've been doing for the last decade. That also leads to whining about how I'm 'abandoning' her. Y'know, to the couch, TV, and fanfic. Exactly what she was going to do whether I stayed home or not.

I've flat out said I love her, but the way she is behaving is frustrating and it seems like my happiness doesn't matter. To which she pouts and cries and accuses me of trying to get rid of her so I can be with someone else. I pointed out that the way she is treating me is the only thing that would make me feel like that. Cue more pouting and crying.

I also get hit with barbed verbal comments whenever I speak about female friends or coworkers. Did I mention that 5 of the 6 coworkers in my immediate office are women? Like my boss, my boss's boss, my fantastic pseudo-sidekick (we split accounts payable duties about 50/50 while having other stuff that is individual) and my cool Belarussian cubemate who keeps trying to get my wife to come out and hang out with her on a girls' night.

Last Friday, I did training for our CEO's new executive assistant - this training I did for her is part of my job, I train most of upper level staff on this subject and have for the past 2 years. We had some time left, because EA is really bright and has a lot of experience, so I had the chance to chat and get to know her a bit. She's really cool - close to my age, into board and card games, has every Star Trek ever on DVDs (my wife & I are both Trekkies), etc. I made the mistake of telling my wife how the EA was really cool and would be fun to have over - she just moved into the area; she has family but no real friends here - because I think we'd all be good friends.

Now it's Monday, I invited my wife to come to lunch with me at work because she had the day off. She refused, so I wound up meeting EA and having lunch with her because I've trying to network a bit more at work and she's a fun person. We discussed what brought her back to this area - major illnesses in both her mother & sister as well as general activities and I talked up one of my friends who is also cool, local, and single. So now, when I openly tell my wife about this - I don't hide or keep secrets what I do - EA is now my 'new girlfriend'. Because I've spent 90 minutes of my life with this woman, half of which was actually me doing my job.

She's also jealous of my pseudo-sidekick coworker (PS). In that respect, I actually agree. PS is very much like me and my wife in age, personality, interests, etc. The main difference is that basically PS is to her husband as I am to my wife. Except her husband doesn't accuse her of cheating. He just runs off to a separate room to go online and leave her alone to deal with the kids every night.

Given our broad range of mutual interests, the almost seamless way our personalities mesh, and our sharing of marriage problems, if I was going to have an affair with anyone it would be PS. We work closely together every day and there is definitely a mutual spark of attraction. I fully admit to having a crush. I also know this is a problem and so I find myself weighing my actions and words carefully around her.

At the end of the day, though, neither of us wants to cheat. Neither of us wants to break up our marriages. And we aren't looking for that. There've been a few mutual moments when we realized a line could be crossed and one or both of us backed away. With embarrassment on both our parts. I think a good deal of the attraction between us is based on the fact that our spouses keep spurning us. It feels good to be wanted as more than a couch accessory or babysitter.

I haven't cheated and I don't intend to do so. I'd file for divorce rather pursue an extramarital relationship. I grew up in the devastation of a 13 year divorce, initiated by my father having an affair. I know how ugly it can get.

That said, I don't actually want to leave my wife. I just want back the woman I was with for the first 7 years. The woman I'm living with now looks like my wife, but she has no interest in going out. She'll promise to do so to shut me up, then back out when the time comes to get ready and leave. She will accuse me of wanting to date other women, while refusing to even go out to dinner & a movie with me once a month. Hell, she won't even go grocery shopping with me. I'm almost tempted to stop buying food for the house because then she won't have a choice but to get up off the damned couch. She has no interest in therapy or counseling because she claims me chasing other women is the problem and only I can fix that.

I feel like in her head she is reliving the failed marriage she had the first time around but I don't know how to get her to see it. It's like the first 7 years I spent in this devoted relationship mean nothing. If she acted like this in her first marriage, I can see why it failed. I tried flat out saying it. That did not go over well. I'm basically out of options except for the 'we need a break' card. I don't really want that, but I can't stand what my life is becoming and I refuse to be trapped in this crappy cycle forever.

So, if anyone has suggestions on how else I can approach the subject - openly, honestly, and factually have gotten me zilch - I'd like to hear it.

[Sunshine]

She sounds depressed...i would try to get her to go to a doctor for an evaluation. Im sorry you're dealing with this

[Kheldarson]

I'm going to borrow a line from the newspaper columnists: Therapist. NAO.

Seriously, if she's reliving her previous marriage, you're probably going to need help at this stage to work through it. Assuming she wants to work through it...

[Gizmo]

Depression. And possibly fear.

I have a friend who has a wife whose had a tumulolous ex-marriage that ended badly. The wife also had a not good upbringing. In the last couple of years there was a violent crime in the neighbourhood.

All of these factors and the depression means the wife barely leaves the house and hates friend leaving the house except for work.

Unfortunately until you can get the person to admit something is wrong and talk honestly about it... you can't do anything.

[Tama]

Gerrinson -- the fact that you have admitted to feelings for her is a dangerous sign. You really should not keep testing the line. We are all wired to do wrong, and that especially means an affair.

Most affairees are people who thought they'd never do it. But they were overconfident. And failed when opportunity came after an extended period of time alone.

[Gerrinson]

Gerrinson -- the fact that you have admitted to feelings for her is a dangerous sign. You really should not keep testing the line. We are all wired to do wrong, and that especially means an affair.

Most affairees are people who thought they'd never do it. But they were overconfident. And failed when opportunity came after an extended period of time alone.

Tama, PS and I are basically never alone together. We work side by side in cubes, but there are 4 people also in cubes next to us.

A large part of our jobs involves working together on quite a few things. In fact, she's been designated by our boss as the official backup to many of my tasks, so I have to teach her a pretty large portion of my job. I'm the backup for her job because it used to be mine. The end result of the cross-training is to have, professionally speaking, 2 of me in the office.

And given how I feel, I studiously avoid being along with PS whenever possible. I'm not 'testing the line' I'm retreating from it as much as possible.

[csquared]

I will agree with what has been said already. Your wife may have depression and both of you could use some marriage counseling.

Good luck.

[yeahwhatev]

Does your wife have any relatives? Are you involved in a church? It sounds like it is time for other people to be involved in this. Your wife is set in her ways and in a downward spiral. She is looking to blame you because it's what is right in front of her. You would benefit from an intervention. Introducing new perspectives and options into the situation might help. Couples counseling would be less invasive and easier to deal with than just HER getting the therapy she obviously needs.

Phrasing can help with depressed people. Understanding that they feel helpless and persecuted is a must. Avoid words like YOU, use WE, US, OUR. Start out with "I am sorry WE are having problems. Both of US are hurting, could WE talk about how to make things better for US?" Be prepared for immediate defensiveness and more accusations. Think of it like verbal Ju Jitsu. "I wasn't aware I made you feel like that. How can I make you feel better?"

When the accusations come, do not accept their validity. Accept the fact that she blames you, even wrongly, and ask how to make it better. She'll either say "I don't know" or suggest more couch time. Keep your responses upbeat, but do not accept it as a viable option. "I know you like spending time with me, and I adore my time with you, but this is what lead us here. I want you happier, this isn't enough."

Interventions are about forcing a perspective change, and they generally need as many people as possible. That is why you see people reading statements about how the bad behavior affects them. You are trying to get the subject to empathize with their family and friends. It sounds like you will have to convince her to go to therapy on your own. The tactic of changing her perspective from her being confronted, to a couple looking to confront their problems is valid. You just need to get her to see it.

There may actually BE things you say and do that affect her self worth and confidence, unmeaning though they may be. Communication is key. Having a third party who is trained to identify the usual bullshit everyone throws out to protect themselves is sometimes REALLY useful!

Good luck

[mathnerd]

I concur with the others. Medical/therapeutic intervention is in order. She sounds like she's in a major depression. Of course I'm not a doctor, but that's sure what it sounds like to me, as a person who does have severe depression.

If your wife won't go to an appropriate specialist, please go see one yourself. A good therapist can help you deal more appropriately with what is going on, and maybe even help you help her get the help she needs.

[Seshat]

I agree - she sounds depressed.

For you: talk to people who are experts in helping the families of depressed people. Therapists for depression are often experts in that, and ones who aren't will be able to refer you to ones who are.

For her: I'm strongly in favour of talking therapies, supported when necessary by medication. I can give you my reasons for that in PM; BUT please be aware this is patient-to-patient's-husband, I AM NOT a doctor, therapist, or other expert.

Suitable practitioners of talking therapies:


* Trained clinical psychologists (NOT research psychologists - ask to see their certifications for providing therapy; the degree for both types can look the same depending on the university.)

* Mental health or psychiatric nurses who've done talking therapy training.

* Priests, Imams, Rabbis, and other religious leaders - but only the ones who've done the training. (Some do, some don't. Some theological colleges insist on it for all who will be doing pastoral care, some offer it as an elective, some don't offer it at all.)

* Some practicing psychiatrists. Some psychiatrists focus on medication, some on talking therapies, some on both.

* Trained counsellors/therapists who have done the same talking therapy training as the above people, but not their additional training.


Note that there are many varieties of talking therapy; however my own therapist (a mental health nurse) told me of a study she'd seen: apparently the way the therapist and patient 'click' - or don't - is more significant than the type of therapy.
That said, some people respond well to CBT, others to psychoanalysis, or relaxation therapy, art therapy... meh. 'talking therapy' covers a lot of fields.



As for the reason I say supportive medication may be necessary: if she's too ill right now, she may be literally unable to respond to a talking therapy. Her TV watching and fanfic may be a self-medication; a distraction therapy from the way she's feeling.
She wants you with her to reassure the core self underneath the pain that you do want her, and that you're there for that core self.


Anyway; that's my, non-medical, armchair diagnosis. And what I'd do about it: get her to a talking therapist, or get one to her, and also consider getting some supportive medication into her on a temporary basis.
'Temporary' might be two or three - or five - years. Talking therapy is the slow-but-thorough solution to a mental-health problem.

(Note: some mental health problems are actually neurochemical or neuroanatomical in nature. For those, medication may need to be permanent, but in those cases it's like giving a type 1 diabetic insulin: the body doesn't make it/doesn't make enough.)

[Kheldarson]

We are all wired to do wrong, and that especially means an affair.

I'd disagree with this. We're not wired to do wrong. We're wired for self-interest, but that doesn't mean that that drive overrides our empathy (unless you're a sociopath, in which case...).

In a lot of cases, being honest about your attraction means being able to deal with your attraction better. In Gerrinson's case, he admits to being more careful in his dealings, which is a good first step to dealing with it. Being honest about it also means being able to find ways to fall out of attraction with a person. And let's not discount a person's own choices either (Gerrinson's statement that he'd divorce before having an affair).

[BlaqueKatt]

I'm going to be a bit unpopular, but I normally am, so whatever.

What your wife is doing to you is emotional ABUSE, NOT DEPRESSION AND IT IS NOT OK!

Depression is not an excuse for abusive behavior,It does not cause abusive behaviour. I hate to say but if Gerrison was a female experiencing these issues I'd be willing to be the responses would be quite different. (when I was going through very similar issues, I was constantly being told to "leave him", and "he's abusive", even though he WAS in therapy, AND on meds.)

Signs of emotional abuse

Humiliation, degradation, discounting, negating. judging, criticizing:
Does anyone regularly ridicule, dismiss, disregard your opinions, thoughts, suggestions, and feelings?

And if I try to watch a show that I actually like, she sits there and complains through the show

Check

Domination, control, and shame:
Do you feel you must “get permission” before going somewhere or before making even small decisions?

It appears that now we are married, I should no longer have any interest in going out to dinner with my wife. Or going to the occasional movie. Or even wanting to spend time out with my friends - once a week, I game with the guys the way I've been doing for the last decade. That also leads to whining about how I'm 'abandoning' her.

Check

Accusing and blaming, trivial and unreasonable demands or expectations, denies own shortcomings:
Do they accuse you of something contrived in their own minds when you know it isn’t true? Do they blame you for their problems or unhappiness?

She will accuse me of wanting to date other women
he claims me chasing other women is the problem and only I can fix that.

Double check

Emotional distancing and the “silent treatment,” isolation, emotional abandonment or neglect:
Do they use pouting, withdrawal or withholding attention or affection?

Cue more pouting and crying.

yup another check

Codependence and enmeshment:
Do they require continual contact and haven’t developed a healthy support network among their own peers?

is the quote necessary here or have I made my point?

Your wife is an abuser. Full stop. Get help. full stop. She will not change, abusers don't reveal who they really are until their victim has too much invested in the relationship to leave. She meets every single criteria for an emotional abuser like a checklist-DEPRESSION DOES NOT DO THAT!

Please, for yourself, seek help.

[MoonCat]

BlaqueKatt, I will not disagree with most of what you said, except to note that in some depressed people, it comes out as anger and sulking as well as crying and isolation. Some depressed people can be very manipulative. My mother was clinically depressed, no question. She could also be verbally very nasty when she wanted to. It was her way of dealing with something that she had no idea how to fix. Naturally we (her kids) fought back, and she just got more defensive and more depressed. It was a vicious cycle. When she was diagnosed (afte a self-harm crisis), and got help, a lot of that stuff stopped, she began to take an interest in life again, and stopped blaming all her problems on other people.

[Seshat]

BlacqueKatt, I simply did not notice that. My bad.


Gerrinson,

Find two therapists.

For yourself, find a checklist of abuser behaviours - and the conditions and feelings that are common to abusees. If there is even the slightest possibility that Katt is right, make sure your therapist is familiar with recognising and treating men who have been/are being abused.

For her, find someone who can treat depression - and can treat the kind of disorders that generate manipulative and abusive behaviours. She may or may not choose to go; but at least find someone.


If she won't go .... I don't know what to suggest. If she's manipulative and abusive, well, the recommendation is easy: get out. As stated in a different thread, the actual action can be difficult. But that's the recommendation.
And DO get a therapist, and DO see them, no matter what. If nothing else, your therapist can be your lifeline.
Sadly, we have several people who have been abused - too many - but if you end up thinking that might be the case; make a call for help. In this community? you'll get support.

If she won't go and she's depressed but not intentionally manipulative .. it's harder. Sadly, you may have to choose whether to allow her to choose to remain depressed, or whether to ask the medical and legal community to take agency and control from her in this matter and give it to you for a while.

Your choices all suck. But which path is correct depends on what she's doing, and what decisions she makes. You need to try to figure out the former.

[Gerrinson]

I honestly do not believe she is an abuser. I grew up in a family full of emotional abusers, and I don't think any of them could have hidden it for 7 years. It took a long time for me to realize that fighting with them to see reason was not the way. They are no longer a part of my life by my choice and my direct action.

I am seeking help, I just really need her to also seek help. If moving out is the key to it, I'll do so, but I don't see that helping her. It is my last step for my own sanity, if I truly cannot work out another way.

I'll see if I can get her parents to get onboard with a holistic approach; but they are Catholic and have a very 'guilt trip' approach to conflict with their children. If it works, I'll file that useful tidbit away. I seriously hate to use guilt trips on anyone though, it was practically a family trademark growing up and I associate it with the people I hate.