Then you can sit out there all night!

[Dave1982]

This isn't my story, and it technically isn't a sucky customer, but it fits the profile.

Last night my friend who is a police officer had his shift extended by a call that should have taken under five minutes but ended up taking nearly an hour. He and his partner responded to a domestic disturbance report from an apartment building. Guy and his wife had an argument that disturbed the neighbor who called it in.

(I have to reconstruct part of the conversation, since he paraphrased it and I don't recall precisely what was said)

FPO: My friendly police officer.
FPOP: Partner
SH: Sucky Husband



The two of them go up to the apartment and bang on the door.

SH: Who is it?!

FPO: Police sir. We've gotten a report of a disturbance. Would you please open the door?

SH: NO! There's no problem here!

FPO: Sir, we just need to make sure everything is OK. It won't take long. Please just open the door and let us see you and your wife for a moment.

SH: You got a warrant?!

FPO: No.

SH: Then you can't come in!

FPO: We're not here to conduct a search; we just want to make sure you and your wife are OK.

SH: I know my rights; you can't come in without a warrant!

FPOP (who is already on a short fuse because of how long this is taking and becuase he's had a bad day): Actually, sir, state law section blah blah *proceeds to rattle off the exact text of the law that basically states that they do have the right to enter the apartment without a warrant when responding to disturbance calls*

SH: Well I'm NOT opening the door.

FPO: Yes, you are.

SH: Nope.

FPO: We can do this all night, buddy.

SH: Fine, then you can sit out there all night!

FPOP: No, it doesn't work that way sir. *Gets on radio, talking loudly so the guy can hear him* Dispatch, we need backup at [location] and send the fire department. We need them to break open a door for us. Over. *loudly, to FPO* I'd love to see the look on this guy's face when he has to explain to the super why the police broke his door down when he could have just opened it, let us verify that everything's ok, and then be on our merry way!

FPO: Yeah, I'd pay to see that.

And low and behold, the door opens!

SH: Ok, now you can see everything's OK. Will that be all?

FPOP: Where's your wife?

SH: She's fine.

FPOP: That's not what I asked you, sir. But if that's true then you won't mind us coming in to verify that, will you?

SH: You said to open the door, so I did. I don't have to let you IN without a warrant.

FPOP: You think so, do you? *proceeds to barrel right through the guy and into the apartment* If you had cooperated, we wouldn't have had to come in.

And of course, after all this, they find out that the fight was more than just verbal, and the guy winds up getting a ride in the paddy wagon, among other things. And my friend and his partner got a whole pile of paperwork to fill out (and my friend has a strong dislike for paperwork. He once told me that he responded to a stabbing, and in between frantic calls for an ambulance, tried to keep the victim conscious by saying "Don't die on me, buddy! Loooooooootta paperwork if that happens! Looooootta paperwork!" among other things), and got off their detail very late. All of which might have been avoided had he just cooperated with the police.

[Anakah]

That guy was an idiot. I hope his wife is okay though. And I hope she leaves his sorry ass.

[draggar]

Wow, we had something like that happen once (scary thought: The 911 operator gave the wrong phone number and information to the local dispatch). They had a 911 call then a hang up.

They came, I was 100% cooperative, even forced my wife out of bed. Luckily, they realized that we had just wokrn up (it was 3am) and they guessed our alarm went off (which it didn't).

[KaeZoo]

All of which might have been avoided had he just cooperated with the police.

Not to quibble, but if his wife had visible injuries, he was headed for jail whether he cooperated with police or not. Of course, he wasn't going to get anywhere by refusing entry, but it was just the last and least of a long chain of sucky activity for him that night.

Personally, if I were in a situation where the police officer did NOT have cause to enter (such as in a domestic complaint) then I would refuse to allow him to enter my home. IE, if an officer wants to search my home because he suspects I have illegal drugs, or stolen property, or that I'm harboring a fugitive, then he needs to go get a warrant (even if I'm not doing any of those things).

[kerrisan]

I don't understand why people run from the law, either on the road or in their own homes. You can't reason the police away!

[draggar]

Personally, if I were in a situation where the police officer did NOT have cause to enter (such as in a domestic complaint) then I would refuse to allow him to enter my home. IE, if an officer wants to search my home because he suspects I have illegal drugs, or stolen property, or that I'm harboring a fugitive, then he needs to go get a warrant (even if I'm not doing any of those things).

Actually, they can enter your home without a warrant and if they find something, they can sit your but down handcuffed ("detained" is the word) until they do get a warrant for what you have, unless it was in the same room then it is considered "on your person".

People who argue with the police, even if they've done nothing wrong, don't realize that they *are* making it bad for themselves. Police have enough stress in their lives. You think you're defending your home from the police, but what are they thinking? OK, what does this guy have to hide (which is usualy the least worrisom thing on their mind), are they going to try to shoot me?

Every day police deal with the worst shit of the populace. Drug dealers, thugs, murderers, etc, the best thing to do when dealing with them is to fully cooperate, be as non-threatening as possible (even verbally), and be as open / transparent as you can be. The easier it is for them to see you aren't doing anything wrong, the sooner they'll be gone.

I don't understand why people run from the law, either on the road or in their own homes. You can't reason the police away!

That one is easy, they're stupid.

[KaeZoo]

Actually, they can enter your home without a warrant and if they find something, they can sit your but down handcuffed ("detained" is the word) until they do get a warrant for what you have, unless it was in the same room then it is considered "on your person".

Permitting an officer to enter your home is the equivalent of waiving your Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable searches and seizures. Without a warrant, police officers absolutely cannot enter your home without your permission or an emergency circumstance that could justify their entry. Yes, they could get a warrant, but they can't just go write one; they have to convince a judge that they have probable cause to search the home.

People who argue with the police, even if they've done nothing wrong, don't realize that they *are* making it bad for themselves. Police have enough stress in their lives. You think you're defending your home from the police, but what are they thinking? OK, what does this guy have to hide (which is usualy the least worrisom thing on their mind), are they going to try to shoot me?

The fact is, it's MY home. I bought it. I pay for it. The government does not own it. I have a constitutional right (in the most literal sense possible) against unwarranted search or seizure. You cannot be arrested for asserting your rights.

A police officer without a warrant is no different than any other stranger who shows up at your door and wants to come in and look around. He's not going to be looking for mold in the basement. He's going to be looking for evidence that he wants to use AGAINST ME. If he really believes I'm hiding something, then he needs to go convince a judge. If he's just on a fishing trip, then there are far more productive things he can be doing with his time than digging around my home. This is a system that was specifically designed to safeguard ME, and I would be foolish not to make use of it.

Every day police deal with the worst shit of the populace. Drug dealers, thugs, murderers, etc, the best thing to do when dealing with them is to fully cooperate, be as non-threatening as possible (even verbally), and be as open / transparent as you can be. The easier it is for them to see you aren't doing anything wrong, the sooner they'll be gone.

I don't have a problem with police officers. I know they do a difficult and dangerous job and the vast majority of them are honest, hardworking and fair. I'm entirely in favor of treating them with respect, and being polite and non-threatening. But the fact is that our 4th amendment rights weren't just created for guilty people. If police officers have come to believe that they have a right to enter anyone's home under any circumstances, then it is in everyone's interest that we re-establish our privacy rights.

Police officers have a duty to be respectful to the public as well. No good police officer should be offended by a citizen exercising his constitutional rights. If he is, then his outlook NEEDS to be adjusted.

My personal belief is that the "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear" mantra is bad for America. The idea that if you won't allow the state to search your home, then you must be a lawbreaker, erodes one of the most important and basic rights we have.

[/libertarian rant]

[sportsmom]

Permitting an officer to enter your home is the equivalent of waiving your Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable searches and seizures. Without a warrant, police officers absolutely cannot enter your home without your permission or an emergency circumstance that could justify their entry. Yes, they could get a warrant, but they can't just go write one; they have to convince a judge that they have probable cause to search the home.
[/libertarian rant]

While I agree that there should be some limits on what police are allowed to do and not do, the fact still remains that in this particular circumstance, there was in fact an emergency situation. If those police officers had not forced that issue and gotten inside the home to see the wife, odds are, she would have then been beaten even worse than she already was. I think that the police were fully justified in this situation.

[KaeZoo]

While I agree that there should be some limits on what police are allowed to do and not do, the fact still remains that in this particular circumstance, there was in fact an emergency situation. If those police officers had not forced that issue and gotten inside the home to see the wife, odds are, she would have then been beaten even worse than she already was. I think that the police were fully justified in this situation.

I do agree that in the original post, the police had every right to enter the home.

[Dave1982]

Not to quibble, but if his wife had visible injuries, he was headed for jail whether he cooperated with police or not.

You're right of course. But it was my friend who had said "if he had just cooperated...." which is why I put that in there. He didn't specificy what they found in there, so maybe it was something that would not have been noticeable had the guy opened the door and the wife just poked her head around the corner and said "we're fine." Or maybe it was inevitable that this guy was going down and my friend was speaking rhetorically. I dunno.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Plus, the police have to follow up on every call, so if the police turn up at your door, odds are that they're just following up a tipoff from someone else. Therefore, if you're innocent, then your beef is with the arsehole who sent the police round to your place for no reason, not the police who are only doing their job.

[KaeZoo]

Plus, the police have to follow up on every call, so if the police turn up at your door, odds are that they're just following up a tipoff from someone else. Therefore, if you're innocent, then your beef is with the arsehole who sent the police round to your place for no reason, not the police who are only doing their job.

All the more reason to refuse consent to search; if somebody's annoyed enough with you to send the police to your door, it's not unreasonable to expect that the same person might plant false evidence, if he could.

I don't particularly have a beef with anyone, including the officers whom I understand are just doing their job. My beef is with the idea that their job includes or should include searching a person's residence without proper cause.

In the US, police can and often do obtain search warrants based on tips from confidential informants. Often they're not very credible informants with motives of their own, but that's a completely different rant.

[Auto]

Permitting an officer to enter your home is the equivalent of waiving your Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable searches and seizures. Without a warrant, police officers absolutely cannot enter your home without your permission or an emergency circumstance that could justify their entry. Yes, they could get a warrant, but they can't just go write one; they have to convince a judge that they have probable cause to search the home.



The fact is, it's MY home. I bought it. I pay for it. The government does not own it. I have a constitutional right (in the most literal sense possible) against unwarranted search or seizure. You cannot be arrested for asserting your rights.

A police officer without a warrant is no different than any other stranger who shows up at your door and wants to come in and look around. He's not going to be looking for mold in the basement. He's going to be looking for evidence that he wants to use AGAINST ME. If he really believes I'm hiding something, then he needs to go convince a judge. If he's just on a fishing trip, then there are far more productive things he can be doing with his time than digging around my home. This is a system that was specifically designed to safeguard ME, and I would be foolish not to make use of it.



I don't have a problem with police officers. I know they do a difficult and dangerous job and the vast majority of them are honest, hardworking and fair. I'm entirely in favor of treating them with respect, and being polite and non-threatening. But the fact is that our 4th amendment rights weren't just created for guilty people. If police officers have come to believe that they have a right to enter anyone's home under any circumstances, then it is in everyone's interest that we re-establish our privacy rights.

Police officers have a duty to be respectful to the public as well. No good police officer should be offended by a citizen exercising his constitutional rights. If he is, then his outlook NEEDS to be adjusted.

My personal belief is that the "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear" mantra is bad for America. The idea that if you won't allow the state to search your home, then you must be a lawbreaker, erodes one of the most important and basic rights we have.

[/libertarian rant]

Bravo. Good post.

The thing to remember is, if the cops ASK your permission, then you have the right to say no. And if you say yes -- to come into your house, to search your car, whatever -- you have given the cops the right to use against you anything they find.

That's why you NEVER give the cops permission to search you, your car, your premises, if there's something you don't want them to find.

And if there's a chance you will end up a defendent in a criminal action, you also don't tell the cops anything beyond your name and address and that you'll be happy to cooperate with them once your lawyer arrives.

If the cops TELL you to do something, do it. If they say you have 30 seconds to open the door or they'll break it down, then open it. You haven't given them permission -- you've only done as they ordered. Prosecutors and judges have no patience with people who disobey the orders of cops. If it turns out the cops had no right to tell you to do something, then anything they found can't be used against you. But that's something to be decided later, once a stressful and possibly dangerous situation has ended.

[Kusanagi]

He once told me that he responded to a stabbing, and in between frantic calls for an ambulance, tried to keep the victim conscious by saying "Don't die on me, buddy! Loooooooootta paperwork if that happens! Looooootta paperwork!" among other things), and got off their detail very late. All of which might have been avoided had he just cooperated with the police.

Personally, if an EMT or police officer said this to me and I was the one dying, I certainly hope that laughing would not make my condition worse, because I would definately be laughing my injured ass off.

[BookstoreEscapee]

I can understand not wanting to let the cops come in to my house for no reason, but in this case, they had reason to believe someone might be injured in the house. I sure as hell hope some woman who just got the crap beat out of her wouldn't be potentially left lying on the bedroom floor while the cops sit outside waiting for someone to wake up a judge.

Several years ago my mom had appendicitis, and around 5 in the morning my dad called for an ambulance. Later he called from the hospital to let me know what was going on and I went to call my brother at work. Somehow my phone redialed 911, and then it got disconnected. About 15 minutes later 2 cops show up at my door because of the hang up. I was a little upset (cuz of my mom and I was tired from being up at 5am) and they asked if they could come in, clearly thinking there was something else going on. They asked if there was anyone else in the house (my grandmother was in the shower). Of course I let them in, and told them what had happened, and they didn't go past the living room. But under the circumstances, I think they had reason to want to check things out.