Fired, and I still don't know why. . .

[Argus]

Now, I can't actually take possession of the shirt, .... But, they want their $30 for the shirt since I ordered it before I was terminated.

Depending on state law, they probably can't do that. In fact, in some states, if you had paid for the shirt before termination, they might have had to choose whether to let you keep it or buy it back from you.

As for the security clearance, as brought up in another current thread, just tell them what you know for a fact (which is very little), and possibly include a copy of whatever termination paperwork they gave you.

[silverstaff]

Couldn't the Feds looking into it possibly make them think you're looking into a lawsuit?

What would really be great is if the Feds start asking your employer why they fired you, and they can't come up with a legitimate reason...

Yeah, that's the idea.

I didn't realize it until last night, but having the Feds show up asking all these questions about me and why I was fired could make them think that there was some kind of pending Federal action regarding my termination.

[Aragarthiel]

Couldn't the Feds looking into it possibly make them think you're looking into a lawsuit?

[eltf177]

What would really be great is if the Feds start asking your employer why they fired you, and they can't come up with a legitimate reason...

[silverstaff]

I forgot to ask about the shirt. I'll ask the next time I speak with the JA.

The JA (who is acting as my legal counsel in this regard) would appreciate if I didn't talk about the details of any actions we may or may not be taking through any administrative or judicial channels, even if anonymously online, so I shouldn't give details until the dust settles.

. . .when that happens though and the matter is finally closed, I will give a COMPREHENSIVE accounting of things for everyone.

However, I do have one amusing realization I had about an hour ago that I can share.

My security clearance is up for renewal. I have to have a pretty high-level clearance for what I do in the military. I'm putting in the application for the renewal now. I realize that when I list my employment, putting down that I was fired from a job is a big red flag, especially when I can't put down why other than being as vague as I listed here.

I realize that means there will almost certainly be a Federal Agent or two coming by my former employer in the next month or two asking a lot of very pointed questions about my work and the quality of my work and about my performance evaluations and such. They don't say why they are asking these questions, and I realize they may come to some possibly erroneous (but highly amusing, to me at least) conclusions about why Feds are snooping around really wanting to know exactly why I was fired.

[TheSHAD0W]

I also vote for silence on the shirt matter. You may wind up wearing it after all. :-)

[silverstaff]

They emailed you to pay for a shirt to work for them that you won't now be using as they sacked you.......?

Silence is the better option since my other one would not place you in a good place for ongoing claims.

Another thing: If they *knew* that you were failing probation and intended to fire you.... why did they order the shirt? Sounds like there wasn't an issue and then the manager that hates you taking leave threw around his weight to get you fired. Or the person doing the ordering wasn't told but even then they can say "wait on X, Y and Z for these shirts - they are still in the probation period and whilst we don't expect problems..."

Here's how the shirt order went. One of the supervisors goes to one of the Officers and says to take up an order for shirts & jackets. That Officer puts out an e-mail to the whole office with the catalog and price list, asking if people want to order anything, and if so to give her their orders before Friday when she would be placing the orders. I placed my order for the shirt. She submitted the order on a Friday, and I was terminated the next Tuesday. The shirts came in a couple of weeks later.

One thing I found out about between talking with the manager who was walking me out of the building, and a manager I met with when I came back to get my mini-fridge out of the office was the two supervisors that weren't my immediate bosses and they both told me they didn't know why I was terminated, they weren't in on the decision, and they only found out about it a few hours beforehand.

There were 3 supervisors, and the district supervisor who was over the whole office. From what I can tell, the decision to terminate me was between my immediate supervisor and the district supervisor (or from higher above), and the other 2 supervisors didn't even know I was to be fired until that morning (in retrospect, I think I know exactly when. I tried to go to my manager to ask a question at around 10 that morning, but she was in a closed-door meeting with the other supervisors at that time, that was probably when the word was being put out). I would certainly think that the Officer who was handling the shirt order would have no way of knowing 4+ days in advance I was to be fired when even other supervisors weren't told until about 4 hours beforehand.

I'm due to meet with the Judge Advocate in about 3 hours, so I'll ask him what to do with the shirt. I've been stalling with the e-mails so far about the shirt, responding to them but dragging out the process of how much do they want for it, how do they want me to pay, ect.

[EricKei]

Ask the JA for his advice on the shirt. You may not be under any legal obligation to buy it, but hey, that's something he can find out pretty easily. Besides, embroidery can be removed. they certainly sound like the sort of place that would feel no guilt about handing someone an obviously-altered shirt like that.

If they *knew* that you were failing probation and intended to fire you.... why did they order the shirt?

I had something similar happen at accountingfirm -- After six years of doing tech support and training work there, I was offered the chance to sign up for a 401K. This suggests the boss intended to keep me on board for the long haul. I asked that we defer the issue for a few months, as I was dealing with some back bills and school loans, such that I couldn't really spare any new deductions at that moment. About a month later, I was canned with no warning in favor of a brand-new, less-expensive worker x.x

[Gizmo]

They emailed you to pay for a shirt to work for them that you won't now be using as they sacked you.......?

Silence is the better option since my other one would not place you in a good place for ongoing claims.

Another thing: If they *knew* that you were failing probation and intended to fire you.... why did they order the shirt? Sounds like there wasn't an issue and then the manager that hates you taking leave threw around his weight to get you fired. Or the person doing the ordering wasn't told but even then they can say "wait on X, Y and Z for these shirts - they are still in the probation period and whilst we don't expect problems..."

[KuariKaydrith]

I'd be telling them to pound sand, but I think that your idea of ignoring the request until you've done the run through the Personnel Board is probably best at this point. If you get your job back then pay for the shirt. If you don't get the job back tell them to stuff the shirt where the sun don't shine!

[silverstaff]

A slight update to this saga, a mildly comical one.

A couple of weeks before I was fired the office put in an order for shirts/jackets embroidered with our names. I ordered a polo-style shirt for work.

It came in earlier this week, I got an e-mail asking me to pay for it. Now, I can't actually take possession of the shirt, since it's got the badge of my former agency embroidered on it. They can't sell it to anyone else since it has Officer Silverstaff embroidered right under that badge. But, they want their $30 for the shirt since I ordered it before I was terminated.

I'm debating whether or not to just pay the $30 to not burn any more bridges there, or to tell them I'm unemployed now, can't afford the $30, and to go pound sand, or to just ignore the request for money until I see if I have any success with the Personnel Board.

I'm still headed for my meeting with the JAG Officer this afternoon. I'll see if I can share anything after that.

[silverstaff]

My understanding is that people in the National Guard are called in for routine training one weekend a month and two weeks a year, so are off their civilian job for military duty more than once per year. Since they are never more than one year from being restored to a position following military duty, does this mean that people in the National Guard can NEVER be terminated from their civilian job?

Well, that rule is employees of the State Government, not any employee anywhere in the state. Also, they could still be fired "for cause", but for State Employees that requires proving it to the Personnel Board, who are famously shy about substantiating a "for cause" dismissal. It basically takes breaking the law, gross incompetence, or job abandonment to get that allegation substantiated.

It's well known that in this state, to fire a state employee, other than an arbitrary not-for-cause dismissal during their probationary period, takes an "Act of God" as its called, because the hearings and appeals process can take up to 2 years.

I'd often heard that the State Government was a very military friendly employer before I was hired, I got my job largely because of the heavy weight given to veterans in the hiring process. Once you're out of Basic Training and AIT, you get a DD-214 discharge certificate for that active duty time, so you can use that to claim veteran status on employment, since you were on Federal Active Duty for several months of training, so every Guardsman basically counts as a veteran for most hiring purposes.

It was their reputation as a very military-friendly employer, combined with my supervisor's very hostile attitude towards my military service that really stunned me about all this.

As a side note touching on the Veteran employment thing, I just got back from taking the Postal Service examination this morning, aced it, and with veterans points I got what is apparently a very high score. I found that the USPS requires 6 consecutive months of active duty that was not for training purposes for Veteran status, but I've got that through a 1 year homeland security-related active duty assignment I did several years ago.

[wolfie]

"Upon returning from military duty you (whether merit or non-merit) may not be terminated except for cause for a period of one (1) year after restoration to a position following military duty. "

My understanding is that people in the National Guard are called in for routine training one weekend a month and two weeks a year, so are off their civilian job for military duty more than once per year. Since they are never more than one year from being restored to a position following military duty, does this mean that people in the National Guard can NEVER be terminated from their civilian job?

[EricKei]

Awesome ^_^

Please let us know how it goes -- AFTER asking the JA what you are and are not allowed to say anonymously online (this is really important for any court case -- leaks can stall out or kill a case on their own; for a military-involved one? I shudder to think). None of us want you to get in trouble over any of this.

That being said, we're looking forward to whatever you can tell us! *grabs an ice cold RC*

[silverstaff]

And SS, you know what to do now, of course: Lawyer up. Either the Labor Board itself, or (probably more useful) via a military equivalent. Document everything you can think of on paper - times, dates, names, places - no matter how insignificant it may seem at first - and give it to them along with your written concerns. Probably best not to contact the former employer in any way unless they tell you otherwise, and continue to remain as anonymous as possible online. Loose lips and all...

I now have an appointment to speak with the Staff Judge Advocate (i.e. the Legal Officer) at my National Guard unit on Thursday to discuss this discovery.

I was already going to be seeing him to discuss the matter, but now that's going to be a much more interesting discussion.