Christmas Surprise...

[NightAngel]

And boy was I surprised when my hubby came home from work Christmas Day and told me this had fallen on him in the bathroom at work:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v693/Nokomys/fred1.jpg

My hubby named it Fred and wanted to keep it but I told him no. I don't have anything against snakes but it's just a pet that doesn't fit into our lifestyle. Plus, we couldn't afford to buy a habitat.

We gave Fred to one of my Shift Leaders who just LOVES Fred. She spent hours researching and discovered that Fred is a girl and since she's a Scarlet King Snake- her name is now Scarlet.

We had to go to a pet store and have them kill a baby mouse for Fred to eat today. *bleh*

[Saydrah]

Now that IS a surprise!

Just so you know, there are very humane ways of feeding a snake available. There are mail order companies that humanely raise and humanely euthanize their rodents and will overnight you a box of the frozen variety (or, Fred's new owner, that is). At his size, he's only eating pinkies, so a month's worth would easily fit in a box the size of a deck of cards. This is also much more economical, in addition to being kinder to the prey. I'm not a snake owner myself, but I have friends who are- if you need a supplier's website so you don't have to deal with pet stores (which, at least the variety that breed their own mice and kill them for you on request, usually treat rodents very badly) I would be happy to get you one, just toss me a PM. Thanks for not live feeding, on behalf of my rodents!

[DGoddessChardonnay]

Oh my!:eek:

I've never had reptiles growing up, but we did have a Bard Owl that was recuperating in a cage in our building for several months many moons ago . . .

Her diet consisted of dead rats, which luckily we didn't have to go out and kill. We could go by the local vet's office once a week and pick up a supply of frozen rats to keep in the refrigerator we had in our building.

I don't even want to know how they killed those rats . . .:runaway:

[Knightmare]

At least it isn't poisonous.
That would be like those koalas that drop from the trees on unsuspecting tourists in Australia. Sink their 5" fangs into the tourist and wait for the poison to take effect. Then it's dinner time!

[ThePhoneGoddess]

As a milksnake enthusiast, I would like to correct your identification of the widdle baby (She's so cuuuute!)

A Scarlet Kingsnake is identified by its red snout. Here is a Scarlet Kingsnake:

http://www.snakesandfrogs.com/scra/snakes/images/Derek's%20Scarlet%20King%201r.jpg



That is actually a type of milksnake. I believe that it is a Pueblan Milk snake:

http://www.thenatureofthings.com/images/milk%20snake.gif

[XCashier]

What a beautiful snake. I can imagine it was a bit of a shock to have it fall on your hubby in the bathroom, especially since on first glance it looks like a venomous coral snake! :eek:

[Rahmota]

gegeegah. Snakes are one of those big red buttons that freak me out. Just somethign not right about them. If that had dropped on me there would probably be one of those cartoonshaped holes in the wall as I ran throug it screamign like a little girl. Especially as first glance that looks like one of the coral snakes. Red touches yellow you're a dead fellow red touches black youre okay jack.

Congratulations on a free pet I guess. As for feeding it why kill the mice first? One of my ex friends had a ball python and would just toss a live rat in. he said the snake liked it better that way. I dunno.

[Saydrah]

Rahmota, live feeding a captive snake is extremely cruel both to the snake and the prey.

First, the prey (by the way, scientists have discovered that rats are the non-primates whose cognitive abilities are CLOSEST to those of humans- so they are more like you than your dog, your cat, or even pigs which are very smart) is terrified at the sight and scent of a predator in a confined area. In nature, most snakes hunt by surprise and there is no confinement or fear. Most wild snakes also only hunt when hungry, so they kill and eat quickly- captive snakes are fed on a schedule and may not always be hungry enough to eat the prey immediately, prolonging the fear, and also may not be very skilled hunters and will maim an animal rather than eat it quickly.

Second, live prey quite often ends up injuring the SNAKE rather than the other way around- I have seen some nasty graphic pictures of rat and mouse bites. Even a small mouse can would a large snake fatally if it is determined enough.

Does that make sense?

Many very responsible and kind snake owners are people of my acquaintance, and all feed frozen/thawed or prekilled prey euthanized humanely exclusively.

[NightAngel]

Yep, that's why we had to go get a dead mouse- so it wouldn't injure the snake. She (the snake) isn't very big and her constricting isn't very powerful- I don't know if she could kill her own food.

We figure she probably came from the pet store next door to my hubby's job and probably never had to fend for herself. I don't know much about snakes but I wonder if she was looking for him to feed her much the way a stray dog might come beg at your door. She was absolutely starving.

Besides, my SL and I would both rather be as humane as possible to both animals involved.

[Saydrah]

I don't think much research has been done on the cognitive abilities of snakes, but from my limited experience with them, I think that they do come to recognize people as sources of food if raised in captivity- so quite possibly she dropped on your hubby wondering if he might have a mouse in his pocket, IMO!

[ThePhoneGoddess]

We figure she probably came from the pet store next door to my hubby's job and probably never had to fend for herself. I don't know much about snakes but I wonder if she was looking for him to feed her much the way a stray dog might come beg at your door. She was absolutely starving.

Milksnakes are known for their voracious appetites and do not shy from eating while being watched, the way some other snakes do. This is part of the reason they make such good pets, because it is so easy to feed them. My baby Adam practically dances in his cage when it's time to eat.

They are also known escape artists, so it is very important that he is kept in an extremely secure enclosure. Milk snakes can escape through spaces so small you didn't think it was possible.

[Shabo]

In addition to what Saydrah said, feeding a snake live food can also cause them to become more aggressive towards their handlers (ie bite bite. And they hurt). Yes, this is not always the case, but it increases the chances. If the snake prefers live bait, then wiggle it in front of their faces. Other than that, it's a rare snake that prefers live bait when raised on dead stuff.

And I always get upset when I hear someone accuse pet store employees of not taking good care of animals. We make sure they have free choice of food and water. We handle them by the tail, as we are supposed to. We clean the cage every chance we get. What more do you want? Us to teach them tricks? We can only do so much! It's true that they don't get great care, but as long as their basic necessities are taken care of, what else do you want? They are there for a short time before someone comes in and picks them up and brings them home. If they are sick, we give them medicine. Sometimes it saves them, sometimes it's too late. If they are really sick, they go to the vets. I've taken them myself. I have given them prescribed medicine. So please don't say that they don't get good care, because we try to give them the best care we can while keeping up with maintenance and those pesky visitors called customers.

[Saydrah]

Shabo, as a former pet store employee myself, I understand that employees are just doing their jobs with the resources available to them- I will never ever work in live animal retail again, and in fact I do not support the practice of selling live animals in stores- but that is a different argument. I mainly blame the pet store owners and the customers who demand instant access to live animals for the poor care animals in pet stores receive.

However, one thing that stands out to me about your post is that you mention handling rodents by the tail. Did you know that picking a rodent up by the tail can cause degloving, which is just what it sounds like- the skin peels off the tail like a glove? This injury can cause life threatening infection and may necessitate amputation of all or part of the tail.

That example illustrates why I do not feel that most pet store employees are able to give humane care to animals. This doesn't make them bad people, but who (especially for the money you make working at a pet store- not much!) can be expected to research proper care and handling for every species in the store, on their own time, versus just listening to the boss, who may or may not be telling you to handle an animal in a way that could cause a life threatening injury? Most people make the choice that is just fine in most jobs- listen to the boss, don't pick fights with the boss- and I can't blame any individual for it. However, as a rat owner, when I see a rat lifted by the tail, I cringe and immediately ask if the person doing so knows that they could cause degloving by doing that, and if they seem to care I demonstrate proper handling (and then stay away from home for three hours, change my clothes, and shower before coming home- because handling a rat at a pet store could transmit a virus to my own rats).

If you are interested, the best way to handle a squirmy rodent without causing injury is to use both hands to lift the animal, holding around the body, and if necessary, grip the loose skin at the scruff of the neck in order to restrain the animal to administer medication, etc.

ETA: It was pointed out to me that this post sounds condescending. It was not intended as such, merely as informative and to give clarity on the opinion questioned; my vehemence on the tail handling issue is mainly due to having been, way too many times, the person who gets to treat yucky pus-filled degloving injuries after the new employee gets told to pick up rats or mice by the tail and does so so roughly that it causes harm. RIP my pet store job, may I never see ye again, applicable deities willing.

[Shabo]

However, one thing that stands out to me about your post is that you mention handling rodents by the tail. Did you know that picking a rodent up by the tail can cause degloving, which is just what it sounds like- the skin peels off the tail like a glove? This injury can cause life threatening infection and may necessitate amputation of all or part of the tail.

I meant the base of the tail (most of our snake owners came in for mice, rarely rats), and yes, I do know about the degloving, but in all the time that I worked there, (2 years, one of which was as small animal specialist) I have never had that happen to me. Ever. Done properly, it is the most effective way to handle a rodent. I also went to an agricultural high school (vet assistant major), and for every single small animal with a tail big enough to be grabbed, that was how we were taught to pick them up. Rats of course need extra support as soon as possible because of additional body weight, and full grown rats should never be picked up by the tail. The other reason we were taught to use the tail is because we never know if the animal is going to bite us or not, and it is the most effective way to get the animal out of the cage without causing too much harm to either party involved.

If you are interested, the best way to handle a squirmy rodent without causing injury is to use both hands to lift the animal, holding around the body, and if necessary, grip the loose skin at the scruff of the neck in order to restrain the animal to administer medication, etc.

I agree, but the cages in the store I was at made it impossible to grab the rodent quickly using that method. For the adults, I had to grab them by the tail to stop them from racing around the cage, then lift them carefully out using one hand around the body. Believe me when I say that I know how to handle the animals. No, not all of the employees do, but if I was at the store, they would call me or someone else who did know how to handle the animals to grab one for a customer. In addition, our store actually hired people who knew about the animals to work in those departments. Not all of our employees did, but those that didn't would stock or work register. They did not handle the animals if they could help it. So again, please do not lump all stores into the category of poor animal treatment. There are always exceptions.

I also share your opinion that stores should not sell live animals, but that's for a fratching thread, not here.

[Saydrah]

There is definitely a WIDE spectrum of care in pet stores. I don't think that any pet store gives the kind of care that I want to see given to an animal I personally plan to acquire; for that reason, I will not buy another animal from a pet store, ever, unless something completely unanticipated happens to cause me to do so. I either adopt rescued animals or I get my pets from breeders who I research extremely carefully- it took me over a year to get my foundation breeding stock for my rats, and I will not have my first homebred litter until this March!

I don't feel that all pet stores are abusive, and there are certainly ones that are much better than others- but due to the presence of customers, merchandise, laws, and the need to maintain positive cash flow, I don't think any store is reasonably able to provide the level of care that the breeders I work with provide- one breeder of my acquaintance not only socializes babies multiple times daily, he also plays Mozart music in the rattie nursery twice a day because studies show it improves brain development in rats! That's the kind of care and committment that comes only from an individual or household that is extremely passionate about providing the best care and producing the best animals, period, and I can't fault pet stores for being unable to provide that level of care. I have seen pet stores that I certainly believe do the best they can and really do care about the animals, and I have seen stores that I immediately reported to every authority I could think of after seeing the conditions in which the animals were kept, and most fall somewhere in between.

However, I currently and for the forseeable future choose to support only pet stores that do not sell live animals, for both ethical reasons and because it is safer due to the risk of contagion to my own pets- can't just vaccinate my rats against SDA, sadly.

[Rahmota]

Saydrah: yes that makes very excellent sense. I have about the same reaction to seeing a snake or a vermin. And sorry for taking an opposing POV here about snakes and rodents as pets but they are just fine in the wilds where they belong but get them in civilization and thats just askign for trouble.

As for my ex-friend yeah he was an ass thats one reason why he's an exfriend. But since I hate snakes and I hate rodents it didnt bother me about the way he treated them. And sorry for having that feeling they just wierd me out and kick that primal fight or flight reaction in me. Unfortunately usually the fight response......

[Saydrah]

Not every pet is right for everyone. I like snakes but have no desire to have one- although I hate cruelty to any animal and would be very upset by anyone hurting one in front of me. In fact, I handle large wild snakes several times a year when they come down the mountain into the stable facility where my horse lives, because usually there is nobody else willing to pick up a six foot snake barehanded and relocate it, so the talk turns to how to kill it- bad, because the usual type that shows up is a type of snake that EATS rattlesnakes, and the fewer poisonous critters near my horse, the better! Amusingly, my only snake bite ever was from a very small, captive California Kingsnake, while all the wild bull snakes and corn snakes have only ever given me a grouchy hiss or two while being moved!

There is nothing wrong with disliking a particular animal- that's what free will is for- but people who do love them appreciate the effort to get information on the proper treatment of those animals. Good on you for bothering to ask- you never know when you might run into someone considering getting a snake and be able to say, "Well, I don't care for them, but I hear that ______________," and save someone's beloved pet from injury.

Just FYI, rats are actually more tied to civilization than the wild, by far- at least, the Norwegian Rat/Brown Rat, which is the type used for research and kept as pets, and also the most common wild rat in the US. Rattus Rattus, also known as the black rat or roof rat, is found in parts of the US and is the type of rat whose fleas carried the Black Plague- the Norwegian Rat, in fact, was part of the reason the Black Plague was stopped, because its higher resistance to parasites made the plague less transmissible, and its larger size drove roof rats into hiding, away from humans who could get bitten by thier fleas. These days, most Norwegian Rats in the 'wild' depend on civilization for food and housing- there are many other less common rat species that are truly wild, but the Norwegian Rat is more symbiotic. They consume trash and roadkill, keeping decay and parasite infestation down, and one study conducted in New York found that the average residential kitchen is actually less sanitary than a commercial kitchen infested with rats! They also have a more sensitive sense of smell than dogs, and for that reason, are being trained to detect mines in some parts of the world, and have been very successful. Certainly nobody (even a rat owner) likes to have a wild rat in the house, but rats as a whole do a great deal of good for humans.

[Ree]

Please take any further comments about petstores to fratching, as Shabo has already suggested as a better forum for this discussion.

Confine anymore comments to discussions of the care and feeding of NightAngel's particular snake, please.

[Rahmota]

Ree:yes ma'am. I'm just gonna say this and then back out of this thread.

Saydrah. yep I have no problem with other people having whatever they want to as pets. If they want to risk winding up dying in some sort of Mutual of Omaha moment then have at it. There is a guy in Piketon (small town a bit away from here) who has a bet Lion and a Pet brown bear. This came into the news because his lion got loose a week or so ago and was playign in traffic. A 400 pound lion playign chase the civic is not somethign Pike County Animal Control is used to seeing.......

And as for rats by in the wild I meant more out of my house, or control zone. Yeah rats are tied with humanity throuhgout history. I studied how they where a vector for the plague during the middle ages.

Anyhow as they say. Knowledge is power. And I learned a brief bit that I dont know if it will ever be useful or not but hey. have at it with your new pet. just dont bring it arou me okay?:eek:

[Saydrah]

Soooo NightAngel... any updates on how Scarlet is doing?