I need to vent

[iradney]

You all know that I'm horribly in love with TTO. That's a given.
What you don't know, is that I'm a PC widow. He is always in front of his pc, playing Dota or Eve, or looking up information on Darkfall.

I end up doing all his chores, since he never does them when I ask, and I don't want to nag. That's the quickest way to make a man deaf to requests.
I do all the cooking, he gets pancakes in bed every Sunday morning, I do the washing, the cleaning, the vaccuuming (even though he's supposed to do that) etc etc.

I still haven't gotten a Valentine's card from him. Not even a little hand-written love letter. He's always too busy in front of his PC to pay attention to me. I go to bed alone most nights, since he stays up till 2, 3 am playing his games. If he's working, then I don't mind. It's something he has to do. But FFS, I'm his girlfriend. I'm the woman he supposedly loves. Oh, he says he loves me, but I'm not really seeing any actions that prove it.

He's rarely willing to compromise - this may seem petty, but if we go to the movies, it HAS to be one that he likes, like a thriller or something gorey. I don't always enjoy those. But God forbid I ask him to watch something that he MIGHT not like. I sat through Rambo 4 for him. I sat through Hostel 2 for him. He can sit through Hairspray with me, dammit!

I'm tired of being ignored, I'm tired of feeling unappreciated and taken for granted. I'm tired of feeling like a live-in maid and chef. I know TTO is not the most romantic person in the world, but dammit, I'm a girl and I want some! :cry:

I'm feeling resentful, and I want to talk to TTO about this. But I want to do in a way that doesn't make him clam up like he usually does. Because honestly, if something doesn't change, I'm considering doing something drastic to get his attention.

[Bright_Star]

Tell u what-do this & you'll ghet attention:
Make a BIG sign & put in BOLD letters-ON STRIKE & march in front of him till he "gets it". I heard someone did this exact thing & it worked.

[crazylegs]

:hug:

Do you have any mutual friends that he will listen to that could perhaps drop some not so subtle hints.

If you do want to chat to him, remember he is male, let him know the time, place duration and content of conversation. Stick to one subject at a time, don't meander from issue to issue, it'll just confuse and irritate him, but don't stand there with a list and go "You don't do this, this and this" because that will make him feel inferior.

Men like to feel like they provide for the women in their life, if they think they're not providing they will not be happy and (incredibly worse case scenario) they will go to a woman who they think they do provide for.

Remember that the male ego is a very fragile thing (treat it like you would his nuts, its that sensitive :lol:)

However.

You are being treated in a terrible manner, you ARE his GF and you SHOULD be treated better. Spell it out to him that things need to improve because as they stand you're not happy (but let him know that he can make you happy).

If you don't want to nag, don't do his chores, or don't wash/iron his clothes or other things connected with his possesions, it will only take a couple of times of him being late to work because there are no clean/ironed shirts to wear.

Just as a side note, I would suggest that you decide that valentines this year isn't going to happen, if you press the issue it won't actually have any meaning as you may end up feeling that he has only bought a card because you told him to. However you may find that once you've had your chat he takes you out for a meal or does something else special just because.

Just my 2p worth (hey the exchange rate is in my favour! :D)

*An edit having read PuckishOne's post

Iradney

The above sounds like I am sticking up for TTO, I'm not. It would appear that you love him dearly and want to make the relationship work. I know the above sounds like the usual guys sticking together thing but I promise you, it isn't. No woman deserves to be treated in the way that you are. Ever. You deserve better treatment from TTO and you deserve to be happy, the above is only about bringing the facts to his attention.

If he doesn't want to know, or want to change, then I'll echo PuckishOne, kick him into touch.

Although you love him living in a one sided relationship sucks, I know, I've been there and as a result I now have a *huge* amount of baggage, slowly getting smaller but still there.

As I/we've said, if he can change fantastic, live happily ever after, if not you need to make a decision.

[PuckishOne]

I'm horribly in love with TTO.

I end up doing all his chores, since he never does them when I ask

I do all the cooking, he gets pancakes in bed every Sunday morning, I do the washing, the cleaning, the vacuuming

I go to bed alone most nights, since he stays up till 2, 3 am playing his games.

Oh, he says he loves me, but I'm not really seeing any actions that prove it.

He's rarely willing to compromise

I'm tired of being ignored, I'm tired of feeling unappreciated and taken for granted. I'm tired of feeling like a live-in maid and chef.

Iradney, I love reading your posts and think very highly of you, but as much as I hate to do this, I'm going to use your own words against you here. Read those quotes. If a friend of yours said those things to you, what would you tell her? I suspect you'd tell her to drop the bastard like a hot potato and find someone who understands that a relationship is a 2-way street.

From what I've seen, you are a vibrant, intelligent, attractive young woman and, frankly, you deserve someone who recognizes that and treats you as such. What is there to love about someone who gives you nothing in return, not even his time? Is being with TTO more important than your sense of self, more important than being treated like the wonderful person you are instead of live-in household help?

I only ask these questions because it took me until I was 35 to sort this out for myself - I know you were looking to vent here, but I couldn't let this pass without saying something. Take it as you will - and good luck. :) :hug:

[Mr. Rager!]

Men can change.

Stop making him Sunday morning pancakes in bed. Sleep in. Start doing your own laundry, and just your own laundry. When he runs out of clean clothes, hand him some detergent. When you guys go out to a movie and go to get the tickets, order one ticket to the movie you want to see and see what happens. He might start to get the hint, or he'll get horribly upset and storm off.

Also, if he's hungry tell him there's food in the kitchen.

This happened with a couple of friends of mine. While my friend B wasn't being too helpful with his now fiance A, it just took her a little bit of going completely one-sided for him to notice. Now they're engaged and she texts me every so often that he's been absolutely great around the house. He still doesn't do quite half of all the house work and cooking that needs to be done, but he's doing a lot more than she ever expected.

[iradney]

Hey guys

Thanks for the replies. Bright_Star, that sounds like an idea, but I'm not too sure if it would be very effective...

Crazylegs - Thanks for the advice :) My problem is yes, when I talk, I have verbal ADD, I start off on one subject and then OOOH SHINY OBJECT. Queen of tangents, that's me. So I'll definitely make an effort to stick to ONE issue and ONE subject only. That may actually get through to him too.

PuckishOne - Thanks for your honesty. Believe me, it is appreciated. And you're right, I would tell that girl to kick the dude to the curb.
However, TTO has his moments, where he'll come and cuddle me when I go to bed, or make me tea. Unfortunately, they're getting more and more scarce. He didn't start out like this, he was actually very attentive. I think this is a case of "I'm comfortable, I have her, I don't need to woo her anymore". Which, quite frankly, ticks me off.
I'm going to have a chat with him this evening when he gets back from his outing with his parents, and we'll see it how it goes from there.

FashionLad - That's exactly what I'm going to try as well if the chat doesn't make an impact. I have a feeling it could be very effective.

Wish me luck!

[blas]

After what happened with my last boyfriend, my dear Iradney, I'm going to have to say that most likely, he won't change unless you put your foot down with him. And if he doesn't change after that, well, then you know what you'll have to do.

I too was sick of being unappreciated and always left on my own while he insisted on being with his friend or being by himself cuz he was always whining that he didn't get enough time to himself (he had Sunday through Thursdays and usually Fridays too all to himself after work!)......so I told him either he spends more time with me and starts acting like a boyfriend or we're through....and guess what? We were through.

Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

[Gravekeeper]

I've actually been in this boat, oddly enough. I have an ex that was like this. Over Counter-Strike no less. It reached the point where I'd go to bed....and wake up at 4am and she'd still be over there playing. I'd have to tear her off it to get her to go to bed because she had class in, oh, 4 hours and it was a 1 hour bus ride to the campus.

But yeah, not fun, very frustrating and it won't change unless you intervene to be honest. I mean one of the reasons it happens is because they don't realize its happening. So its certainly not going to change if you stay mum about it.

As for my ex, well, yeah, she's my ex now, so you can see where that went. ><

[crazylegs]

Wish me luck!

I can do better than that, I can wish you the Best of British :lol: (stiffens upper lip)

If you want to PM me feel free.

[lordlundar]

Electo-shock works. If not for him, then his computer.:devil:

(Yes, I know. A tech head is not supposed to say that, but I play MMOs and I do a lot more than sit around and play games. Drastic times call for drastic measures.)

[iradney]

Electo-shock works. If not for him, then his computer.:devil:

(Yes, I know. A tech head is not supposed to say that, but I play MMOs and I do a lot more than sit around and play games. Drastic times call for drastic measures.)

:eek: yikes! I can't do that, it's his work PC as well. (I could hide the power cable I suppose....)

[Hello Kitty]

when I talk, I have verbal ADD, I start off on one subject and then OOOH SHINY OBJECT.
I am not the best verbal debater, especially if I'm upset (don't you hate it when you think of good comebacks or points way later?). So if I get sucky service from someplace, I like to write a letter. It helps me stick to the topic, I can edit my arguments and rephrase until I get the right tone. Say what results you want, not just complain (e.g. "I would like for you to vacuum once a week", not "you never clean up"). This also happened with me and my spouse, arguing over distribution of chores. I do hassle him, if I don't then it just doesn't get done - so sorry, but IF YOU HAD DONE IT EARLIER, I WOULDN'T HAVE TO NAG YOU. He now helps out equally with the children (takes over at a certain time each day) - my sisters in law were amazed "how'd you get him to agree to that?" "He knew he'd be a single parent if he didn't!". Sometimes you just have to be FIRM. Not a SC, but not a pushover, either. Let him know you're upset, and how he can fix it. Good luck.

[thegiraffe]

I suggest explaining to him that you're tired of being an option to him while he's a priority to you. That got my ex's attention for a little while (but it turned out he was so in love with himself that it didn't do a lot of good in the long run).

I like Fashion Lad's ideas also. Maybe just vacuum 'your' side of the room too? Like, just your side of the bed. Wash only 'your' sink in the bathroom (if there are two). Do only 'your' dishes. Don't take this as a flame, but you've spoiled him. Everyone needs to be spoiled sometimes, but it's gotten almost ridiculous. Now, I've done almost the same thing (with previously mentioned ex) - because I didn't know better. But he took advantage of me because he knew I'd be there.

It kind of sucks sometimes, but that's how the cookie crumbles. Guys are trainable like dogs (no offense, guys!). You do things for them enough, and the eventually begin to expect it.

Good luck!

[Crazeyal]

Getting someone's attention when they are being clueless is sometimes half the battle. People can be overly defensive, and when it comes to a relationship.. the defenses turn into control battles easily.


BUT..

You haven't mentioned sitting down and talking. REALLY talking. He might be well aware that you don't like his staying up so late, but he might not realize that it's related to him not doing his share. Taking someone for granted is a two way street. You already know that nagging someone is a sure way to get them to tune you out. But so is doing it yourself, without complaint. You really REALLY need to talk to him. Communicate that you aren't trying to fight with him, but he's being dismissive and disrespectful to you. You deserve to be treated better!

If you sit down, and write down every little thing you want changed, take it to the next level. You sound like you know him pretty well. Will he give you lame excuses as responses? Real reasons? A mixture of both? Write out what you think he'll say too. Does he have anything YOU don't do? Dollars to donuts he'll bring them up. THAT's the control issue. "Well YOU don't do XXX!!"

IF you can't talk to him without it becoming an arguement, then don't argue. INFORM.

Write everything down as orderly and pleasant as possible. The missed Valentine's day, the way he NEVER takes you to see any of your movies, the chores he ignores until you do them, and all the lame excuses/counter accusations/reasonable excuses. Let him know that you are unhappy. Let him know that you are NOT leaving. Let him know that if things don't change, in all probability you'll just deal with it... but you'll think less of him.

Then wait until he's online and throw the circut breaker. Leave the letter on the table with a candle. Go out for a few hours and indulge yourself to some GIRL stuff.

Okay Dr Phil has LEFT THE BUILDING!!

[iradney]

Yep, I have spoiled him. I do that to people I love...*blush*.
The only thing I can think of that I don't do is make as much money as him. But that's something that's not completely under my control unfortunately. Can't exactly go to the boss and say "Hey, my boyfriend earns more than me, gimme a raise." hehehe

[Crazeyal]

Well.. That's happened to the wife and I. She cooks.. I don't. It's not that I can't.. I just don't want to. She took issue with this. I countered her VERY real objection that I should cook some days with the fact that I sometimes work 70 hour weeks. We compromised in that anytime she simply DOESN'T feel like cooking.. we eat frozen dinners or just go out.

Communication is the key.

If you confront him with a sudden demand, all he will have in his response bad is yes, no, or aggression.

So STOP spoiling him.

Make up a chart for the chores, and when they don't get done, walk over and ask him politely. IF he doesn't, turn off the power! You'll have to dig yourself out of the hole you dug slowly. Communication is always the key.

[BookstoreEscapee]

As for your "verbal ADD"...like Hello Kitty suggested, writing a letter is a good way to get your thoughts together. I used to do that. Sometimes I would just hand it to him to read, then we'd talk about it, or sometimes I would just refer to it as I talked to keep myself on track. Also, it helps to make sure you get all your thoughts out on the table, so you don't get distracted by one issue and forget to bring up something else. Your original post here is a good start.

PS I had the same kind of issue. There was no computer involved...just the old-fashioned hangin' with the boys at the bar till closing. But the rest sounds pretty familiar...:rolleyes: -well, except I don't cook :p

[Dawnchaser]

Well, I've been on both sides of this issue so I know where you are both coming from.

I was an EVE widow for months...K was on there all the time. And anytime I tried to make plans...he always had something planned for that night with his "corporation." I tried the stupid game after he pestered and pestered. To me, the gameplay is...excruciating. I just couldn't take anymore after a few hours.

I tried everything. I begged, I screamed, I reasoned (not necessarily in that order)...nothing got through. Finally I just start going out every night or having friends over to our place. That got through a little bit because K is rather antisocial and doesn't like people over all the time, even if he is busy doing other stuff. But still, he would be at the computer on his headset screaming about lag or ships getting blown up, or whatever. It was really bad because our schedules weren't the same at the time, and we had little enough time together as it was.

It was seriously to the point of hitting divorce court. I mean, what's the point of being married if you never see or spend time with the person?

Luckily he lost interest in EVE due to some patch issues or something...and we decided to try WoW together...and now we are both on that all the time! :lol:

Now my friends are mad...there's just no way to win! :roll: But we have heavy raiding schedules and I'm a guild officer...so what can I do?

[PuckishOne]

...and we decided to try WoW together...and now we are both on that all the time!

This is pretty much the secret of my marriage to Mr Puck, too...hey, whatever works!! :D

And iradney - I've got my fingers crossed for you, so just be strong, take that deep breath and talk it out with TTO. You know where to find the shoulders if you need them later. :)

[Seshat]

I'm a geek, married to a geek, and we live with a geek housemate. It's taken quite a bit of working out. But here's how we handle it.

- I'm the one who notices things. No matter how much I nag or explain or try to teach, neither of the other two have the skill of noticing 'hey, the kitchen benches need cleaning' or 'oops, big pile of dirty dishes' or 'stray mug over there'. It IS a skill, and apparently it's not one the others have been able to learn. So I'm in charge of corralling things for hygiene, wiping down benches, cleaning the fridge - all the tasks that require noticing.

- But I'm NOT in charge of cleaning them. That's a separate task. I corral the dirty dishes and stack them up in the designated zone beside the sink. My husband and housemate accept that that's a task in and of itself. So my husband actually does the dishes and puts the clean dishes away, my housemate does the laundry and folds it and puts it away (or puts mine in my room - I'm finicky about how my wardrobe is arranged).

- For chores which can be done at a preset time, we split them up. I wrote down what it takes to look after a household - everything from managing the household LAN to paying bills to ensuring wills and legals are up to date to cleaning out the U-bend in the sink. Then we split them up as fairly as possible, based on what each of us most enjoys, what each of us most hates, what we're capable of, and divided responsibilities as fairly as we could.
Neither of them had realised how much work goes into even the simplest household. Once they did, they were happy to take on more of the load.

- Don't complain about when or how a chore is done. If it's done within the time frame (every week, every day, whatever), and it's done adequately, complaining about details will just put the other person off doing it. So the dishwasher was stacked badly - as long as the dishes are clean, swallow your objections.


None of this addresses the biggest issue, though: your feelings about being ignored.

I find the most success if I turn things to my feelings. 'I'm feeling ignored.' 'I'm feeling abandoned.' 'I'm feeling unimportant.'

Do NOT have a conversation about the chores and a conversation about attention to you at the same time! That'll make giving you attention seem like a chore.

Some geeks find a great deal of company and comfort in 'parallel play'. That's something toddlers do when they're first learning to interact - they'll sit near each other, each playing their own game, but getting company from the other person's presence. Sound familiar?

If he's enjoying parallel play, he probably doesn't even realise there's anything wrong. He may well think he's giving you lots of company. You'll need to explain to him that it's not enough for you. That to you, all that parallel play time may as well be time spent totally apart. (Don't phrase it that way!)



Use animal training techniques. Give him one thing to learn at a time. Reward him when he does it at all, increase the standard gradually, and when he's reached the standard you want, keep reinforcing the behaviour periodically. Use punishment sparingly if at all, use pointedly-ignoring him and/or pointedly-not-doing-things-for-him carefully. He'll get the message. Try not to let him catch on - and DON'T let him catch you reading behaviour-training manuals. Unless you have a dog or cat. ;)


Loving a geek isn't easy. But with a bit of time and effort, and some training, it can work.

[crazylegs]

Some geeks find a great deal of company and comfort in 'parallel play'. <snip>each playing their own game, but getting company from the other person's presence. Sound familiar?

Oops... :ashamed:

That'll be me then...

[iradney]

Update:

Okeedoke. TTO and I had a long, heartfelt discussion. He didn't realise he was being so distant until I pointed it out. He made a valid point in that he is always there if I need something (aka emergency or something similar), and I explained that while that is great, I need him everyday. Just a small conversation each day would be great!

We touched on the subject of chores - I pointed out that lately, I've been picking up all the slack, and he appreciates that. TTO is going to be a little more regular with regards to helping around the house.

He's also agreed to come walk the dog with me on weekends :D Which will be awesome!

Now, this part is a little uncomfortable for me, but it is unfortunately something that needs to be mentioned.

I have gained quite a bit of weight since we first started dating. And he worries about my health as a result of it. I have yo-yo'd somewhat, since I try something for a couple months and then lose interest :( He told me I need to make a better effort, as he's tired of seeing me upset about my weight (which I can't blame him for honestly, it annoys the crap out of me too). He's offered to buy a gym membership at his gym for me, but I already have a membership at another gym that I really like going to. So basically, I have to ante up too - which is more than fair.

[dispatch]

:highfive:

well done! I've found that maintaining open communication is key in these kinds of things, best of luck to you!

Now if dispatch could just find a young lady crazy enough to tolerate him...

*peeks out window*

Nope, still single :lol:

[Shangri-laschild]

Glad to hear the conversation helped. It's good that he was that receptive to it.

[crazylegs]

Rads,

Good to hear it went well, did anything I say helped?

[iradney]

Rads,

Good to hear it went well, did anything I say helped?

Hey CL - but of course :)

In other news, we're hoping to play Darkfall together (if/when it gets released). He's shown me some screen shots on it, and HOOOO BOY, it looks fun!

[Saydrah]

Yay, good job on taking the first step!

Now, step #2:

Buy "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor. Memorize the seven methods of changing unwanted behavior, and use all of the positive ones regularly. It's exactly like Seshat suggested- we ARE animals, nothing wrong with reinforcing each other. Good relationships are circles of positive reinforcement. When one partner starts using reinforcement with the other, the other follows along whether consciously or not, and starts reinforcing as well. Good stuff, just wish I was better at practicing what I preach :lol:

For example- one method of combating an unwanted behavior is to train an incompatible behavior.

Unwanted Behavior: TTO sits on computer more often than cuddling when you go to bed.

Incompatible Behavior: Sees you go to bed, immediately comes over for a cuddle.

Train behavior by: Wait for when he DOES come over for a cuddle when you go to bed. Important: Don't elicit the behavior by asking, because then you train the incompatible behavior on-cue only, and not only do you rarely get it without asking, you also get non-compliance if he doesn't feel like responding to the cue. When he does come over for a cuddle without being asked, reinforce immediately with compliments, physical affection, maybe even sex. Make it very rewarding for him to come to bed and cuddle with you- more rewarding than playing on the computer.

[iradney]

Well, I have "How to speak Dog", but somehow I doubt that'll help much since TTO doesn't have a tail :)
I'll give it a shot, who knows, maybe I can train myself that way too!
So far, however, things are looking good, and I'm hoping we can maintain the improvement.

[Jester]

Electo-shock works. If not for him, then his computer.:devil:

(Yes, I know. A tech head is not supposed to say that, but I play MMOs and I do a lot more than sit around and play games. Drastic times call for drastic measures.)

:eek: yikes! I can't do that, it's his work PC as well. (I could hide the power cable I suppose....)

Both of these, while well-intentioned, would have been bad in practice. The problem is not the computer itself, or the game, but the fact that TTO is so drawn in by it. What needs to change is his BEHAVIOR. And doing something like just turning off the power is just passive-aggressive, and wouldn't accomplish all that much.

However, the way you DID handle it seems to have been much more assertive and effective. Well done! It wasn't easy, I am sure, but it was the better way to go.

[lordlundar]

Both of these, while well-intentioned, would have been bad in practice. The problem is not the computer itself, or the game, but the fact that TTO is so drawn in by it. What needs to change is his BEHAVIOR. And doing something like just turning off the power is just passive-aggressive, and wouldn't accomplish all that much.

Spoilsport.:p

And electro-shock DOES change behavior. It just has to be before he can turn on a light bulb by touching it.:lol:

[MystyGlyttyr]

Man, it's a good thing you guys are faster at giving advice than me. I would have told her to sock him in the eye.

Then again, there's probably a good reason that even before I realized I was asexual, I never had many boyfriends...

[iradney]

Man, it's a good thing you guys are faster at giving advice than me. I would have told her to sock him in the eye.

Then again, there's probably a good reason that even before I realized I was asexual, I never had many boyfriends...

Tempting...
but he's tall (6'10" to my 5'8"). I have to wear heels to reach that high. And I can't run in heels...:rolleyes:

[crazylegs]

Tempting...
but he's tall (6'10" to my 5'8").

Blimey, he *IS* tall, no wonder he has the nickname he does!

[blas]

6'10?! Oh MYLANTA! The tallest guy I've ever seen was my former body guard, who was 6'8 and 300 lbs.

[iradney]

6'10?! Oh MYLANTA! The tallest guy I've ever seen was my former body guard, who was 6'8 and 300 lbs.

Heheh
Yep, he's tall :D Makes me feel nice n short too! Which is nice, coz everywhere I go, I seem to be the tallest girl...*sigh*

[Shangri-laschild]

Tempting...
but he's tall (6'10" to my 5'8"). I have to wear heels to reach that high. And I can't run in heels...:rolleyes:

*grins evily* that's what knee caps and long sticks are for...All my guy friends in high school were 6'2" - 6'6" and I'm 5'5". After a while you learn tricks.

[Seshat]

We touched on the subject of chores - I pointed out that lately, I've been picking up all the slack, and he appreciates that. TTO is going to be a little more regular with regards to helping around the house.

Gradually get it into him that he's not 'helping you'. He's doing his share of the tending to his own property and life. He needs that attitude change - and so do you!

I have yo-yo'd somewhat, since I try something for a couple months and then lose interest :(

Rather than 'trying something', introduce tiny lifestyle changes. Look at your diet - is there something you can change that will make you healthier?

Perhaps you like nibbling on dip-and-chips: can you change that to dip-and-chopped veggies? Or change the dip from a sour-cream based dip to a hummus or tahini or other healthier dip? Nowadays, I sometimes snack on chopped veggies and home-made hummus: I buy a tin of chickpeas, blend them to dip texture with a food processor & a little water, and add whatever spices and herbs I want.

Or replace cream with milk in some of your recipes or in coffee. Use a low-GI bread instead of white. Get a couple of glass litre bottles and fill them with water in the morning, make sure you drink them to empty over the course of the day.

Walk the dog every day.


The point is to not try to lose weight, but to try to improve health. And to do so in minor habit-changes that are so very, very small they're completely painless; and that are so small and painless that they'll stick with you for the rest of your life.

[iradney]

Thanks for the advice Seshat. You've hit the nail on the head! What I'm doing at the moment is at least half of my meals have to be vegetables. And I snack on fruit and yoghurt.
I have a 750ml squeeze bottle next to me at all times. and I drink three of them during working hours, and 1 at home. Plus I have tea when I'm at home as well :)
The pup gets walked everyday - he's a lovely walking companion, and it's a great way for my head to unwind.

In other news, TTO now cooks supper on Thursday nights and Saturday nights. Win!