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View Full Version : debate-right thing? Or wrong thing?(little long)


Binky
09-08-2006, 03:46 AM
Ok I'm going to open up a bit of a debate on something that has happened to me recently. I'm just interested to see what people think...did I do the right thing? Or the wrong thing? Yes I know things are not all black and white, so I will give the best explanation of the situation I can so that you know all the details.

OK...

A little background info..This person (we'll call them K) was someone I have some rather bad history with...they, in fact, were the person who gave me the bad credit rating by not paying the bill 3 times.... so I have some bad feelings towards them. However, something rather more related to the person they are...we both go to university together, we are in the same degree, the difference between us is I have passed everything and they have failed everything bar 2 subjects, they have even had to do subjects again and have failed them again. We have both studied 12 subjects all up, so they have failed 10.

Having lived with them, I know that the reason for them failing everything is the fact that they don't show up to classes, and lectures, and rarely if ever hand in anything, if they do it's a half assed job. People who have been in groups with them, tell me that K would wait till the assignment had been done by other people, and then would just do the intro so that they could claim they did something (even tho the report would be like 100 pages long)

NOW the story, I was (literally) farced into a group with them, and knowing their history I wasn't happy. I in fact told the teacher this, and informed them of the fact that K had failed one of HIS subjects 2 times already! He said that if I had any problems to tell him, and he would sort it out.

OK, so we had our first group project due the next week, we set a day and time to have all the work in for each group member so that I would be able to get it all together and printer. They day came and went, and I had not received a thing from K, not even an e-mail telling me why it wasn't in. I sent them a message...my response? "Not near a computer, will send it tomorrow OK!".... Pissed off (I didn't even get a sorry, or a reason for it not being in) I accepted this. I got the stuff, LATE the next day, and I did the project. I passed it on, and another group member (we'll call the P) went and printed it (I didn't have the time in the end)...now K was MEANT to go with the other group member to print it, K never showed, once again, now e-mail and no call to let P know they were not going to show. P said they would mount the project (it was a poster) and said that K would come and help. ONCE again, K didn't show, and P had to do it alone.

Fast forward to the next project. We had to do 3 drawings each. P and I showed up to class with our 3 drawings, K...showed up late, had ONE drawing, and it was on the wrong sized paper, and it didn't meet the brief! (We HAD in fact told them what to do, at least twice because they hadn't gone to the lecture to find the info out on their own)

Now we have the next project...a report...we delegate each person with a part of the report, it's easy stuff, VERY easy. We once again, set a day and time. K gets reminded on what to do by P and the time it's due. Day and time pass, K hasn't sent me their stuff...AGAIN...no e-mail, no sms, no call, no form of contact at all to let me know WHY!..No contact BEFORE then to say it won't be in by that time. I'm patient, and I wait, it's the next day, and it's 9:00pm...I sms them, P sms's them, they take 30mins to get on msn to tell us where their stuff is...they lie and say that they have in fact been messaging us...I say (and P says) we didn't receive ANY message from them...they admit they didn't in the end, they try and get out of it...giving us all these excuses for WHY it was not handed in to us, we shut these all down (they really were pathetic)..K say's they have done SOME of what they were meant to do, but was waiting for us to send her ours stuff so she could complete it (she didn't need our stuff, she didn't ask for it, and her part was not related to anything we were doing)..Once again we shut this down. In the end, we tell K that they have to add to what WE have done (I had to do their parts as the report was due the next day), and they have to make a real effort or we were not adding their name to the report. K adds a few sentences to one of my parts, and sends it back to me.... rather pathetic...I tell K it's not good enough.

Now we're in class...The report is printer (we printed the one without K's added parts) and we go talk to the teacher, we show him what K did, and say what happened...He say's its not good enough, and says to take K's name off the report, and that he is failing them on the report. K walks into class 30 mins late, and doesn't talk to me, waits till I'm gone and asks P what happened, did we put the report in with their name on it. P tells them what happened, K storms out of room and doesn't come back.

NOW...what I want to know is..do you think P and I did the right thing by getting K failed? Or were we acting a bit harshly? What are your thoughts??

BrassCowboy
09-08-2006, 04:09 AM
I personally have worked in groups with members like that. All I can say is that K had it coming. As a working group member it is very annoying to do your work and then have a bum put their name on it.

Dont feel bad. K did not deserve the points for their 'participation' on the project.

morgana
09-08-2006, 01:45 PM
K got nothing more and nothing less than K deserved. K is a freeloader and a leech; enabling people like that just makes life harder for everyone who does pull their own weight.

Quit beating yourself up about this; you did exactly what needed to be done.


Morgana

Fera Festiva
09-08-2006, 02:20 PM
I agree. You were totally justified.

It's not like you cut a good student out of the project just to be mean. You knew K's history and would not have chosen to work with them. However, you gave them the chance to do the work and to get it to you on time. They (repeatedly) failed to do this.

It's K's own fault they failed - not yours. You have nothing to worry about - and I hope you and P get the good grade you deserve. :)

stormtreader
09-08-2006, 03:37 PM
Yep, you did good.
Maybe K will be more 'motivated' on their next group project now that they've been shown that they have no right to be carried on everyone elses back.

gundam40
09-08-2006, 04:37 PM
You did good. You have more guts than I did when I had the same problem in University...

Cursed freeloader would do almost no work, but since he's in our group, we have to have his name on the report. The TA's didn't give a rat's @ss about our problems, so I just worked my butt off to complete the project. God I feel dumb :P

Banrion
09-08-2006, 05:30 PM
You absolutely did the right thing!! I had a similar experience in college, except it wasn't a group project, it was a partner project, and it was a psych class so they randomly assigned us together to "foster inclusion and understanding". That was a load of BS, my "partner" never returned e-mail, did not do ANY work on the project, didn't show up to class to give us a status report. Finally about a week before the project was due, I went to the TA and explained what was going on, showed her what I had done up to that point, she told me not to worry about it, BUT, she still wanted me to put his name on it. GRRRR!

Due day comes, and this kid finally shows up to class, surprise surprise. She collects the projects, and then hands everyone in the class a survey about the project with questions like, "who contributed most to this project", "who took leadership of the project", "what percentage of the project do you feel you contributed versus what percentage your partner contributed"

Well she had both of us stay after and go over the survey with her. The stupid kid didn't even admit that he didn't do anything. He said he did like 75% of the work, that the basic concept was his, that he took a leadership role.

AHHH, but she was a smart one. Since the project gave a choice of subjects and experiments, she asked him why we picked the one we did. He tried to be vauge and say stuff like "coz it was intresting." Didn't fly with her. He not only failed the project, but was booted out of the class, and was therefore forced to change his major, since this class was a pre-req. for several others he had scheduled the following semester.

Broomjockey
09-08-2006, 06:57 PM
I hate group work for this reason. And I'm always petrified that it's gonna be me who people think are the slacker. I've got this wierd fear of being thought useless. :o

protege
09-08-2006, 07:12 PM
Maybe K will be more 'motivated' on their next group project now that they've been shown that they have no right to be carried on everyone elses back.

That's what I was thinking too. I have very little tolerance for those who don't work, and then bitch when they fail a class. :cry: me a freaking river.

The only time I let someone slide like that, was a good friend of mine. She had missed quite a bit of college, because she'd just had a kid. I don't know the whole story (and I wouldn't tell all the gory details anyway, since it was none of my business ;) ), but she was sick quite a bit.

Anyway, we had a database project to do, and we were working together. This wasn't a difficult project--just a simple Access database for our business computer class. Trust me, it was boring as hell! Most of the material, I'd already had before....so I used a database I'd designed for another class. To make a boring story short, I did that, and she did the report. And no, she didn't slack off--she busted her ass to get it done. I helped her a bit though--I gave her my old notes, and she composed everything neatly into a report. The prof was impressed with the work we did, and rewarded us with an A :)

One-Fang
09-08-2006, 08:46 PM
I too hated the group projects for just such reasons. K earned their own mark for the project in keeping with K's input.

One of my group projects, the prof had made it perfectly clear that it was due at 4pm Friday. They were clearing the submit box at exactly 4pm, and they would not mark anything left in there after that.

At 3.55pm my group were finalising the spelling and formatting. I was going "Just print it, just get it out, it's fine" and they were worried about whether the bullets used throughout the document were the same. Freaking hell. I'd rather lose 5 points for having inconsistent formatting than 100% for not having it in in time! I just could not make them see reason, and it was handed in nearly 10 minutes late. Fortunately, the prof did not make good on their promise and was more than 10 minutes late getting the assignments. But bloody heck, they nearly got me failed over a few bullets!!

Tanasi
09-08-2006, 11:06 PM
I'm kinda confused is K one person more two/more folks? You keep referring to K as they. Anyways I think you did the right thing.

I've had similar problems with projects in both college and in real life. The world is full of sucubuses.

One-Fang
09-09-2006, 12:09 AM
I think 'they' is used to protect K's gender. However, at one point K is "he", at another "she". So I don't quite know what's going on either. I don't think it matters to the point of the story - the frustration of working with an incompetent freeloader.

Binky
09-09-2006, 01:59 AM
K is a she...the he is a typo :) I always try and avoid using the sex then never quite do it...but to avoid confution...K is a she..and I used they to avoid using the sex (which I failed at :lol: )

BunnyJas
09-09-2006, 10:24 PM
I agree with everyone else. K got what she deserved- she did failing work, so she should get a failing grade. There's no sense in putting some freeloader's name on your work just because they happen to be in your group.

The term "group project" scared me when I was in college. I would always get stuck with some loser that didn't care if they passed or failed. If talking to them didn't work, then I had no problem going to the professor about it. I wasn't going to fail or do extra work just because some moron wanted to spend all his/her time partying.

Think Blue
09-09-2006, 11:29 PM
NOW...what I want to know is..do you think P and I did the right thing by getting K failed? Or were we acting a bit harshly? What are your thoughts??

You didn't get K failed, she did that herself. You should not feel bad as you gave her ample opportunity to contribute, but she just kept slacking off.

Binky
09-11-2006, 02:04 AM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH JKHEAYRLHQNERLEYL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRR :cry: :rant: :censored: :pissed:

OK update, K DIDN'T learn her lesson! It's now Monday, around midday; we each had to do a part of another assignment, GUESS WHAT...we were all meant to send our parts to each other YESTURDAY! And I have YET AGAIN heard NOTHING from her, she HASN'T sent her part, and I was STUPID and sent her mine, and P's Part, so now K HAS the parts she DOESN'T deserve!!!!!!!!!!!!But not P and I have to do the part K was SPOSE to do so that we can get our marks and not fail! SPITEFUL FDVERVBEGFSECVBJ !!!! As you can see she is trying to get us back now for failing her!!!!!!!!!!!

Little bit of an explanation sorry....we have an individual assignment, where we are creating a 3D object in a program called Solid Edge, we each design this object, then, we add what is called a "technical package" too this object. The technical package is to be done by the group, with each member doing a part each, then sending the part to the other members so they can use it...get it? I hope so. Anyways, the technical package is done as a group but marked individually, because you hand it in as part of your 3D object. So yeah...that’s

CanadaGirl
09-11-2006, 02:52 AM
Just a question... but after all this crap from K, why is she even still in your group? If the group is permanent, why not just ignore her being there completely. If you have a group of 3, including K, consider it now a group of 2 and split all the work up between the two of you guys, completely disregarding K. It may be mean or bitchy, but it will clue her in you no longer are going to deal with her slackiness.

Binky
09-11-2006, 03:37 AM
That would be great if we could do it, but the teacher said we must "persist" with her and keep giving K work to do, in fact when splitting this latest project up, it was the teacher who actually gave her the part, and we chose the day it was due. IF I could completely ignore her presence...I would, and I wouldn't give her anything, or include her, but as it is, the teacher wants us to "work as a group" and won't let us just ignore her :(

LostMyMind
09-11-2006, 02:25 PM
You need to inform the teacher directly that K is not doing any of the work which is effecting the group. Don't wait to turn in the project. Talk to her immediately, get something from the others in the group saying the same thing. And just point out that you do not want your grade to be affected by a freeloader.

Binky
09-12-2006, 03:14 AM
Done and Done, K is leaving uni all together! And it's about bloody time! They have "requested" that they get the chance to re-do the brief, however all I see is her taking our work and plagiarising it! So I will be informing the teacher of this so that he knows to look out for anything that is even remotely similar to our report. I'm glad, I wanted to work in a group of two from the beginning, and now I get too!

Primer
09-16-2006, 04:10 PM
This is why I, as a teacher, refuse to assign group work. I was always the one that ended up doing all the work, and I will not allow slackers to ride on the coattails of others.

My department heads don't like it, but I refuse to let them intimidate me. I tell them they are more than welcome to track my students and see how they are doing in classes beyond mine (I teach intro level). When their students are doing just as well as mine in the next classes, then they can criticize my methods. Until then, no group work.

Argabarga
09-16-2006, 05:00 PM
It was harsh, and that's the good part, people need to learn that there will be consequences for not pulling thier end of a bargain.

Part of the reason we live in such a culture of entitlement is that honest people are made to feel that they are being mean if they are even remotely involved in a situation in which another person is penalized or made to suffer some unpleasantness of life. We are made to belive that everyone should be happy and satisfied, reguardless of wether or not they do the work

Only by refusing to give credit where it isn't do are we ever going to fix it. I'm glad the teacher had a spine and agreed to fail the slacker. Too many folks I think would just pass them, and maybe lecture them on how they should do more, but if there aren't consequences, nothing will happen.

LostMyMind
09-16-2006, 06:22 PM
Until then, no group work.
Why not allow group work, but give the group a chance to grade each group member participation. I know it's not perfect, but it would at least introduce them to "team" projects that they will face in the real world ;)

One-Fang
09-17-2006, 04:43 AM
Part of the reason we live in such a culture of entitlement is that honest people are made to feel that they are being mean if they are even remotely involved in a situation in which another person is penalized or made to suffer some unpleasantness of life.

My God. That's the most insightful thing I've read in quite a long time.

So true. We need to reassure honest and good people that they can allow bad things to happen to bad people, that they don't have to do everything in their power to prevent it, whatever the cost. That people make their own fates, lazy slackers included.