Cat and pig advice needed! (Long back story)

[Kyree]

The type of pig? Guinea pig :p

As those of you who read my last thread know, I got a kitten a couple months ago (Named him Loki). He's been a little lovable stinker so far, doing kitten things and getting himself into trouble. Normal :P

But now, there's two things that he cannot get through that thick head of his, and it's driving my BF and I nuts.

First off, is food. We have an older cat as well, (Her name is Goobers) and they have to eat separate foods (Him kitten food, her senior cat food). We keep their bowls separated. (Goobers is in the kitchen, Loki's is in the living room.) The problem is, he's a piglet when it comes to food. We feed them two meals a day, one in the morning and one at night. He'll scarf his meal down and then later go after Goobers' food. All. The. Time.

I've tried only letting him eat half his meal, then pulling it away and putting it back down later so he rations it out a bit.
I've tried squirting him with a water bottle whenever I see him leaning into her bowl.
I've tried putting rocks in a tin can and shaking it loudly when he gets near her bowl.
I've done the yelling "HEY!" really loud and clapping my hands thing too.
I don't want to resort to swatting him on the behind, but the urge to do so is coming about, because it's been going on since we've got him :(

He'll even go after her food when he still has food of his own. I'm not sure what else to do. He's seeming to grow immune to water, and half the time doesn't care about noises. I know he's not deaf though.

And, my other problem.

Because of a stupid friend of mine making stupid decisions, I got stuck with another new pet. A guinea pig. The cage he was in when we got him was a dinky 1footx2 1/2foot(not sure what that is in meters, sorry :( but it's small) cage. When I read up on guinea pigs, I found out that they're social creatures, and this guy had been so neglected and ignored, we decided to make a new cage for him, and give him a buddy. So we went out and made a cage for them that's almost the size of our kitchen table.

The problem is, it's /almost/ the size. There's still a gap between the cage and the wall that Loki can get onto. If we push it back against the wall, there's still a gap that he could jump onto. We've filled the gap with junk, and he STILL manages to get up there.

I've caught him IN the cage 5 times in the last two days. Again, I've tried all the methods above to get him to stop. I've even gone to start soaking him with the kitchen spray hose thingy. Last night I did that, and not 15 minutes later, I turned around and he was inside the cage again!

Now, I know that it's bad to have part of the cage open, and I'm working on making a lid, but I ran out of wire racks to do so, and am getting more today. But that won't solve the problem of him getting up on the table, or being able to stick his paws through the wires.

Here's a couple visual aids:
(As you can see in the pictures, there are fold up chairs blocking the window sill. We had to cover that because he was jumping onto the window and getting up that way at first)

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o282/Laiinkyree/loadedJune9th009.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o282/Laiinkyree/loadedJune9th010.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o282/Laiinkyree/loadedJune9th011.jpg

Like I said before, we're going to be making a second level, and completely enclosing the cage, with a door tonight.

And yes, I know. He's a kitten. Kittens do dumb things, and repeat doing dumb things because...they're kittens. But I've raised 4 cats, and none of them have been this bad, even when they were in their trouble making phase. They all learned quickly, with just a few shots of a squirt bottle, and they never did it again.

If anyone has any advice on how to get this crazy kitten to stop getting up on the table, poking his paws through the bars, (heck any advice to help the guinea pigs get used to him there so he doesn't scare them when he does it is welcome as well), or eating my other poor cats' food, please voice it, I need help! :cry:

[ArcticChicken]

I have to say, I think you named the kitten quite aptly.

An underhand lob across the apartment works for one cat I know, at least for a while, but somehow I don't think it would get the message across to Loki.

Sorry.

[Saydrah]

Purchase the following items:

Two towels of a unique and bright color.

Several old-fashioned totally inhumane mousetraps.

Place mousetraps upside down but properly set on the table where Rotten Kitty jumps up.

Cover with brightly colored towels.

Wait for: Pounce! SNAP! SPROING!

the SPROING is a startled (but unhurt) kitten jumping back OFF the table when something jumps loudly right under his paws.

Problem solved ;)

If it's not solved--

Purchase one Scat Mat. Available online or at Petsmart, and gives a small electric shock (just like static) when kitty jumps on it.

[Kyree]

I have to say, I think you named the kitten quite aptly.

An underhand lob across the apartment works for one cat I know, at least for a while, but somehow I don't think it would get the message across to Loki.

Sorry.

Thank you AC :) But no....we've tried the harmless kitty toss away and he just thinks it's fun. He purrs right through it like it's a game.


Saydrah, I would never in a million years have thought of something like that. I'm getting those tonight, thank you!

Edit: ...where do they sell those mouse traps now days? I've never had to buy a mouse trap of any sort ever before. :o

[Saydrah]

Don't thank me, thank John C. Wright, Ph. D (http://www.puppyworks.com/speaker/wright.html). He came up with that one for his clients-- and he's also my inspiration to seek a career in Animal Behavior.

Try the hardware store.

[XCashier]

You could also try double-sided sticky tape around where you don't want him to go.

[BookstoreEscapee]

He's seeming to grow immune to water, and half the time doesn't care about noises. I know he's not deaf though.

I don't have any advice for ya' (though that mouse trap thing sounds promising). My boycat was the same way, though. At first they ran from the water, then just the sound of the bottle shaking, then he started facing off with the bottle and we knew it was time to give up...

[Evil Queen]

What about the feedings? I'd say lock Loki up in the bathroom or bedroom until Goobers finishes eating. Then let Loki back out and feed him seperately.

It's either that or rename him Pigglet.

[Kyree]

Don't thank me
Try the hardware store.
I can thank you for showing it to me, since i would never have found it myself! :p

You could also try double-sided sticky tape around where you don't want him to go.

I forgot to add that. Tried it, he thought it was to poke at. Wore the tape out in a day :(

*snip* then he started facing off with the bottle and we knew it was time to give up...

Yeah, I'm starting to think he thinks it's a fun game.

What about the feedings? I'd say lock Loki up in the bathroom or bedroom until Goobers finishes eating. Then let Loki back out and feed him seperately.

It's either that or rename him Pigglet.

Well....his name is Loki, but I do call him Pigglet as a nickname :roll:
The problem with that one is, Goobers has spent 10 years being able to graze (I feed her 1/2 a cup in the morning, 1/2 at night) on her food all day. She can't get used to eating it all at once and not having anything for 12 or so hours. =/ What I'm doing now is I have both sets of bowls within squirt bottle range from me, and in eyesight, and I pick them up when I leave the house.

[Evil Queen]

mmm..... maybe lock poor Goobers up in the bedroom while he grazes? Nah... he'd get lonely...

[BlaqueKatt]

good articles on cat nutrition here (http://cats.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=cats&cdn=homegarden&tm=30&f=00&su=p284.8.150.ip_&tt=14&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.catinfo.org/index.htm)

from an animal nutritionist-she even explains how to read a nutrition label to see what is best for your cat.


My Cat is Doing Just "Fine" on Dry Food!

Every living creature is “fine” until outward signs of a disease process are exhibited. That may sound like a very obvious and basic statement but if you think about it……

Every cat on the Feline Diabetes Message Board was “fine” until their owners started to recognize the signs of diabetes.

Every cat with a blocked urinary tract was “fine” until they start straining to urinate and either died from a ruptured bladder or had to be rushed to the hospital for emergency catheterization.

Every cat with an inflammed bladder (cystitis) was “fine” until they ended up in pain, passing blood in their urine, and missing their litter box.

Every cancer patient was “fine” until their tumor grew large enough or spead far enough so that clinical signs were observed by the patient.

Every cat was ‘fine’ until the feeding of species-inappropriate, hyperallergenic ingredients caught up with him and he started to show signs of IBD (inflammatory bowel disease).

Every cat was "fine" until that kidney or bladder stone got big enough to cause clinical signs.

The point is that diseases 'brew' long before being noticed by the living being.

This is why the statement “but my cat is healthy/fine on dry food” means very little to me because I believe in preventative nutrition - not locking the barn door after the horse is gone. I don’t want to end up saying “oops……I guess he is not so fine now!!" when a patient presents to me with a medical problem that could have been avoided if he would have been feed a species-appropriate diet to begin with.

[Kyree]

good articles on cat nutrition

Thank you Blaquekatt, but my kitties are eating food that the Vet told me to feed them, I'm looking for advice on how to get them to stop eating each other's food, not what to feed them :o

[Saydrah]

Kyree, even though it's a major change and would be difficult at first, a species-appropriate raw diet might actually be the best solution to that problem. Dry foods generally need to be fed in a way that allows cats to graze. Dry cat food digests very slowly, so a cat is healthier when eating a few pieces at a time to prevent blockage as the food digests. By contrast, raw food digests rapidly.

If you're not ready to make a jump to raw, high-quality canned food can also be fed as meals two to three times a day rather than free-choice. The higher moisture also helps to prevent kidney failure later in life. However, choose a brand with no added sugars, preservatives, colors, or flavorings, and you'll have to keep a close eye on kitties' teeth on canned; unlike dry or raw food, canned foods don't clean the teeth. Giving raw chicken necks for chewing a couple times a week can clean the teeth of a canned-kitty effectively, if they'll chew them.

Other than changing to feeding on a meal rather than free-choice basis, there's not a lot you can do to stop two free-fed cats from munching each other's food without separating them, especially if it's the younger and more agile of the two who's thieving.

[BlaqueKatt]

Thank you Blaquekatt, but my kitties are eating food that the Vet told me to feed them, I'm looking for advice on how to get them to stop eating each other's food, not what to feed them :o

Check your private messages-I sent you a link to another article that explains that kittens need to eat at least 4 times a day-due to very small stomach and requiring at least twice as much nutrition as an adult cat-your kitten is eating more food because it NEEDS more food. Would you expect an infant human to only eat three meals a day like an adult human? Why do you expect your (infant)kitten to eat like an adult cat? By only feeding your kitten twice a day you are starving it, and it may have issues from malnutrition later in life-I sent a private message because I did not want to tell you, you are starving your kitten in a public thread.

for this example I am going to use these figures-I have no idea how close to accurate they are-this is just an example:

Adult cat's stomach holds 2 oz of food and needs 4 oz of food to get it's nutrients-so two feedings is enough
A kitten needs twice as many nutrients so 8 oz of food, however a kitten's stomach only holds 1 oz of food-it would need 8 feedings of 1 oz to get all it's nutrients. Feeding it only twice a day it will still be hungry.

[Saydrah]

BlaqueKatt, I've worked in pet nutrition and am a total nutrition buff, but I have raised orphan kittens many times and done quite a lot of research and never heard someone say that kittens need eight ounces of food each day, but their stomachs only hold one ounce.

Cats' food requirements aren't measured by the weight of their food. A chicken breast contains 60-70% moisture, so even though it is more nutritious than most dry foods, a cat would need more raw chicken by weight than dry food. And imagine if you fed a cat eight ounces of green beans! It would be bloated like a balloon and still would not have eaten sufficient calories.

Most cats, unlike dogs, are self-regulators. When fed free-choice, they will graze (as Kyree's older cat does) and rarely overeat if a healthful food low in sugars is provided. Sugar is not healthful or natural to cats and will stimulate overeating. However, an adult cat can eat two meals of an easily digestible food each day and be fine.

Back to kittens: Kittens develop in stages. The first stage, zero to eight weeks, is when they need intensive care. Nursing kittens must be fed every two hours. The size of the stomach is one reason. Another is blood sugar; a kitten that doesn't eat for several hours can experience a sudden hypoglycemic episode and become very ill or die. Even a slight drop in blood sugar can reduce a kitten's appetite, creating a vicious circle of anorexia and hypoglycemia.

The next stage is eight weeks to four months. Kittens of this age should have transitioned onto whole foods completely, be using a litterbox, and will begin losing baby teeth and growing adult teeth. Free choice feeding or several small meals a day is preferable during this phase. Raw-fed or canned-fed kittens whose pawrents can't come home mid-day to feel many small meals do well eating in the morning, fasting during the work day, and eating an early evening and late evening meal. Two meals of raw or canned a day and a snack or two of organic meat-based baby food also nourishes the kitten while keeping blood glucose at a normal level.

By four months, the cat is a young adult, with mostly adult teeth, and can sustain a healthy body weight and metabolism on two meals per day. However, encouraging cats to wolf dry food is not a good idea, as this can create a blockage. Instead, feed dry food free choice or raw/canned in two to three meals per day.

Kyree said she got a kitten a couple of months ago.

Presuming the kitten was the absolute youngest a cat should be sold or adopted out-- eight weeks-- the kitten would now be four months old and able to dine twice a day.

However, gluttony and excessive hunger do indicate something is missing in the diet, or something is present that shouldn't be. However, not knowing what brand is being fed, I couldn't analyze that; but I don't think it's appropriate to tell her she is starving her four month old kitten.

[BlaqueKatt]

for this example I am going to use these figures-I have no idea how close to accurate they are-this is just an example:


BlaqueKatt, I've worked in pet nutrition and am a total nutrition buff, but I have raised orphan kittens many times and done quite a lot of research and never heard someone say that kittens need eight ounces of food each day, but their stomachs only hold one ounce.

um that's why I said this is an EXAMPLE-NOT FACT--sorry re-read what I posted

[Kyree]

Okay, here's a more detailed description of how I feed my cats.

And also, my kitten has just hit 16 weeks, so he's four months old.

I feed them both twice a day.
Goobers (my older cat) gets half a cup of food, and Loki gets a 1/4 cup (heaping over the cup though - as my vet told me to do.). The bowls are placed in their areas, and not picked back up. (I started just leaving them when I go to work now.) They can graze that food all day.

Goobers eats Iams, and Loki eats Purina One (The food that the shelter had him eating when we got him.)

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3081999

that is the food that Goobers eats. I'm not sure if it's the healthiest, but it's the only food that she eats and keeps down. All other types I've tried with her she'll throw back up. She has a very sensitive stomach :(

http://www.purinaone.com/Products/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=39568DC5-31C2-4596-BB94-8175838BA7C5

that is what my kitten Loki eats. I've been thinking of changing his brand of food though. I have a vet appointment for him next week, so I was going to ask my vet what she thinks.

[Saydrah]

um that's why I said this is an EXAMPLE-NOT FACT--sorry re-read what I posted

It's an awful lot of conjecture to be basing accusing someone of starving their kitten on. I would suggest that you use facts, not hypotheticals, if you are going to make such a serious accusation.

[Saydrah]

Kyree, both of those foods are grocery brands and not among the most nutritious choices available for your cat. If you are able to transition both cats onto a premium kibble, you should be able to feed both free-choice and feed them the same food. It is only because so much of the nutrition in grocery brands is artificial and comes through supplements rather than the ingredients that kitten food and cat food need to be separate; in nature, there's not a "kitten chow mouse" to catch and feed to babies with separate nutrients from the "adult mouse."

Have you ever tried Blue Buffalo Spa Select Indoor Formula? I used to work for the company and I knew a lot of customers had good luck with sensitive tummies on that formula. Wellness and Felidae also tend to go over well with sensitive kitties. You need to transition gradually, starting by mixing 10% of the new food with 90% of the old food. Add 10% of the new food every day, and you'll be switched over in 10 days.

If you get the sugars out of the diet, Loki will probably quit wolfing the food so much and graze like your older cat, and Goobers won't be harrassed :)

Vets often recommend Iams and Purina and Science Diet because these brands do outreach (especially Science Diet) to vet offices and bring their marketing materials, coupons, free samples, etc. Vet school doesn't have a nutrition requirement, so this can be the only training in nutrition that a vet receives. Big surprise that they end up recommending the brands whose sales professionals are their first experience with nutrition! However, if you ask your vet how he feels about Spa Select given that it is a premium brand and is AAFCO-certified just like Purina and Iams, most vets will tell you that's just fine.

[Kyree]

Have you ever tried Blue Buffalo Spa Select Indoor Formula?

If you get the sugars out of the diet, Loki will probably quit wolfing the food so much and graze like your older cat, and Goobers won't be harrassed :)

Vets often recommend Iams and Purina and Science Diet because these brands do outreach (especially Science Diet) to vet offices and bring their marketing materials, coupons, free samples, etc. Vet school doesn't have a nutrition requirement, so this can be the only training in nutrition that a vet receives. Big surprise that they end up recommending the brands whose sales professionals are their first experience with nutrition! However, if you ask your vet how he feels about Spa Select given that it is a premium brand and is AAFCO-certified just like Purina and Iams, most vets will tell you that's just fine.

I never knew that o.O It's sad that in today's world, even places like Vets are moved more by what deals they get then what food is actually better. :(

If I'm reading you right, if I go into something like Blue Buffalo, both Loki and Goobers can eat the same type?

*also, I brush both of their teeth once a week, so they stay pretty clean.

[Saydrah]

Yep. Kittens do need more fat and protein than adults, but as in the wild, they can get that by just eating MORE of a good food. Blue does make a kitten formula, but by 4-6 months there's no real reason to use a kitten food. The extremely rapid growth of the first four months has already slowed down by 16 weeks and the adult teeth are in place for harder kibbles, so as long as they are able to eat as much as they want, an adult indoor formula is fine for everything from 4 months to senior kittyzens.

The regular chicken indoor formula is probably the best bet-- they merged the indoor and the Hairball Control formula a while ago because the hairball one wasn't really selling, but there were some dedicated customers who really really liked it for their cats because it controlled hairballs and vomiting very well. So now all of the extras from the hairball formula for sensitive tummies are in the indoor formula and hairball is gone.

Don't despair too much about vets :) My favorite aunt is a vet, and she says slowly but surely vet schools are changing. They don't require nutrition training yet, but they offer it and she took it as an elective and learned so much that she changed her own dogs' diets and was able to eliminate allergy medication they'd previously been on. But the sales people are trained to convince people, who already have a scientific mind (you gotta have one for vet school!) that science has come up with a perfectly good way to spray chicken fat and vitamins on cornmeal and feed it safely to a carnivore. They're good at it, and have lots of studies that look great until you examine them closely, and most new vets get duped into receiving incentives to recommend crappy brands.

For example, Purina has a commercial that says studies show your pet will live 2 years longer on Purina. That study actually didn't compare Purina to any premium brands. It compared Purina to ITSELF. The dogs that lived longer were fed to an ideal weight; the dogs that lived shorter lives were the dogs that received as much Purina as they wanted, and died of obesity related conditions. SNEAKY!

ETA: If you are able to brush your kitties' teeth, I highly recommend adding high quality canned food or organic meat based baby food to both cats' diet. The moisture is essential to preventing later health problems, but dental decay can be just as dangerous in the long term as a lack of moisture in the diet, so cats that don't get teeth brushed are between a rock and a hard place there. If you feed mostly dry food, a couple servings of baby food a day won't add many calories but will add lots of moisture, lubricating the digestive tract and internal organs.

[Kyree]

Well, you've convinced me to at least try the food :) Now it's time to go see what the damage will be to my wallet :lol: Then again, Iams and Purina are both pricey brands to begin with.

It seems that every brand I've seen a commercial for says that if you feed your pet that brand, they'll live longer :rolleyes:

I hope they make nutritional classes a requirement soon :x

I do brush their teeth once a week. So, one last question, then I'll leave you alone, i promise! :lol: Any certain sort of canned food? Or is any flavor all right for them, as long as it's high quality canned?

[Saydrah]

Go for something with no grains- corn, wheat, and soy are all bad- and no added sugars, colors, flavorings, or preservatives. Beyond that, the more meat the better, and avoid ocean fish flavor or really anything fish besides domestic salmon. Most fish in cat food is imported and has nasty preservatives in it that they don't legally have to declare on the label.

Chicken is easiest on tummies, or turkey.

Blue Buffalo is on the pricey side, but it saves you money in the long run since they need less to be healthy and also will stay healthier longer into old age. And, a tip:

http://www.bluebuff.com/sample/true-blue-results-cat.php

This gets you a free sample and coupons. If you shop at Petsmart, ask the employees when the Blue rep tends to come in, and you can try to snag coupons from the rep, too-- they don't always have them, though.