A friend who can't take critique (long)

[JoitheArtist]

I'm getting really frustrated, and not sure how to handle this.

I have a good friend who is always asking me to look over his writing, but freaks out when I offer any substantive criticism (even when he's specifically asked for it.)

He has some good ideas, but his grammar and sentence structure are quite awful, and he tends to be repetitive and flowery. I've mentioned this to him before, always with the caveat that I really do think he has good content: he always gets mad, says it's a personal attack and wonders what I'm dealing with that would make me so mean to him. :rolleyes: Even on basic grammar, he insists that it's unimportant, and that he was never good at it anyway, and it's the content that really matters.

Lately, I've just taken to saying "Nice," or "sounds good," but he got tired of hearing that, and will respond with something like, "Just 'nice'? that's all you have to say?"

Tonight I was working on some stuff, and had the following conversation:

Friend: want to read so far? jus tot tell me what you think, not for grammar and crap\

Joi: I guess so, how long is it so far/

Friend: 465 words I think but never mind

Joi: oh, ok. I was thinking it might be several pages and I'm trying to work on some stuff tonight, and didn't know if I could read that much, but that length is fine

Friend: That response was not cool, I mean i am always enthuastic to read your stuff, even when I am busy and if I am too busy I would say something like "Depends on how long it is because I have a lot to do"

Joi: sorry, it came out rather differently than I intended

Friend: It came out as a "If I have to I guess I will but it is a rather large imposition

Joi: that was very much NOT what I meant

Friend: okay then

At the moment, I'm going over a book he wrote and is self-publishing (not my idea of a good time, but he was willing to pay $100 and I need the money). Quite frankly, it's awful. There's almost no structure, it's ridiculously repetitive, rife with basic grammar mistakes, overly complex sentences, and highly outdated phrasing. In short, it needs to be rewritten from scratch. Obviously, I'm not going to say that to him! I'm marking in red all the simple grammatical errors that must be fixed, and in green all the stylistic things that would make it flow somewhat better.

But honestly, I'm tired of dealing with this crap. I'm certainly not a perfect writer, but I've got good grammar, and know how to construct a readable sentence. Hell, I get PAID to do that. If he asks for my advice, and only gives me attacks in return, I'm really not interested in commenting on his stuff anymore.

I'm just wondering...how do I say "no" next time he sends me something without wrecking the friendship? He really is a nice guy, and I'd hate to alienate him, but this is getting REALLY old, and I'm tired of walking on eggshells just to spare his fragile ego from the realization that he might not be the best writer in the history of EVER.

[MaggieTheCat]

Have you asked him what kind of criticism he's looking for? I guess we already know he doesn't care about spelling and grammar errors...what does he say when you point out sentence structure, repetitiveness, etc? Next time he asks for a critique, I guess I would ask him, "I enjoy reading your work, but I need to know what you are looking for. Every time I read your work and comment on it, you seem to take it as a personal attack and get upset, even though I am trying to help you. What do you want me to critique you on?"

Honestly, he sounds like kind of an ass, but obviously I don't know him that well. But anyone who is going to get pissy with you for asking how long something is, is just looking for attention, or a reason to whine, I think. Especially since he jumped a long ways to the conclusion he came to. If someone had said the same thing to me, the way you asked him how long it was, I definitely would not have taken it is "it's an imposition."

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Joi, you are learning what I learned a long time ago:

Precious few people honestly want honest criticism. Every single person who writes says they do, and they may even THINK they do, but very, very few actually do. Most just want you to tell them how awesome a writer they are.

Your friend is what I call a literary masturbator. He is not interested in improving his craft. He just wants to basically jerk off.

And his impatience with you is ass behavior. I'd be straight up with him. You dont' have to tell him he sucks as a writer, that is irrelevant. What is relevant is the way he treats you. He asks for honesty and then gets mad when he gets it. So he gets what he wants to hear, and then is dissatisfied with it because he doesn't feel like he got stroked enough.

Tell him you don't like his attitude and leave you out of it, if that is how he's going to be. So what if he gets mad? He's gotten mad at everything else you've tried, why should this be any different?

I mean, clearly, he knows more about writing than you do, right? After all, he's got a publisher. :rolleyes: (note: self publishing does not have the stigma that it once did. But being an ass about it still does.)

[Rapscallion]

You've told him the same stuff before, yet he still makes the same errors. Why does he want the same reaction? Why isn't he improving?

Rapscallion

[RecoveringKinkoid]

He doesn't want to improve, he doesn't think he needs to. He thinks he's Hemmingway and is pissed that she isn't telling him what he thinks he deserves to hear.

He's all about the feedback and none about the craft.

[AnaKhouri]

If he can't take criticism, he has no business being a writer. With that attitude, the only way he will ever get published is through self-publishing. Since it's obvious he doesn't really want your help, refuse to read his stuff in the future or just tell him "It's good." Eventually he'll figure it out, or not. If he doesn't he'll never be a truly good writer, and that's his loss.

(I have a bit of a peeve about writers who can't take criticism- it took me very little time to develop a thick skin, you need it in this business or any other creative pursuit)

[AdminAssistant]

I come across this attitude in special snowflake wanna-be actors (who have often been 'encouraged' by high school drama teachers who told them they were the next Nathan Lane/Kristen Chenowith). They don't need any training, certification, or degree. Pfffttt. Then they move off to New York and are surprised when the city chews them up and spits them out. I'm so thankful I had honest faculty members who said, "It's not that you're bad, but you're not good enough to make a living at it. Stay in theatre, but find another field." It was hard to hear, but it saved me a lot of time and heartbreak.

[Dave1982]

Ugh.....I had a roommate my junior year in college who was like that. He was doing this website for some sort of project, and for the most part it was ok, aside from a lack of content (he was just at the framework stage and hadn't added it yet), except for this overblown animation that you had to sit through every. single. time. you clicked on ANYTHING, with no option to skip it. I was in a similar class, and one thing that had been emphasized several times is that you NEVER force your readers to sit through that sort of thing more than once, and you ALWAYS allow then to skip the intro if they want. Otherwise, you just piss them off.

He asks me what I think. Not knowing the reaction I'd get, I told him that I thought including that animation was a mistake, and why.

To say he went apeshit would be a massive understatement. We damn near came to blows, because he just would not stop! Even after I told him to never mind, he kept going. He even went as far as to criticize one of MY projects (long since completed, and I'd gotten an A on it) and went to great lengths to tell me how much it sucked and all the things i did wrong on it.

"See this picture?" *points* "I know exactly what you did. You took a 72 dpi web image, blew it up, and just dropped it in there. That's why it's all fuzzy."

"Actually, that's a screen capture taken directly from a DVD. It's slightly fuzzy because the frame I chose to use has some motion blur on it because it was shot at night."

"No, that's bullshit. You did what I said."

Then, in the midst of trying (and failing) to tear MY work to shreds, he kept saying how he felt like he was being attacked. Which was real funny, since at this point I was thoroughly on the defensive.

But then again, this is the same asshole who went and bought a mile-high comforter for his bed (I think he bought a queen size and folded it in half) then,upon discovering that it made him too hot, would OPEN THE WINDOW every night in the middle of winter. He was nice and comfy while the rest of us froze. And he would go apeshit if I closed the window.

And it's the same asshole who used MY X-ACTO KNIFE to hack out pieces from the window screen for his unoriginal homemade pot-smoking devices.

I was SO glad when I got out of that room.

[Evil Queen]

I hope I can take constructive criticism well when it comes to my writing.

Why not just tell your "friend" that you're too busy to work on his stuff? Since that's what he's insinuating anyways.

[Dips]

Look, this person is going to get mad no matter what you tell him.

Since his getting mad is a given, why not tell him the truth?

"Look, I'm not going to critique your writing any more. Every time I give you honest criticism you taken it as personal attack on you. It's stressing me out and coming between us as friends. I'm not comfortable with it any more.

So I'm done. You can find someone else to critique your writing. I like you and consider you a friend but I'm simply not doing this for you any more."

Or words to that effect.

If he tries the old "but a real friend would do it" guilt trip, counter with your own.

"A real friend wouldn't try to guilt me into doing I've just told them I'm not comfortable doing."

[BookstoreEscapee]

You've told him the same stuff before, yet he still makes the same errors. Why does he want the same reaction? Why isn't he improving?

Rapscallion

What's that definition of insanity again? ;)


I like what Dips wrote.

[JoitheArtist]

Honestly, he sounds like kind of an ass, but obviously I don't know him that well.

Oh, there's no doubt that he is. I want to slap him sometimes! But he's also a good listener, and a good person to talk to when things are going badly. *shrugs*


Your friend is what I call a literary masturbator. He is not interested in improving his craft. He just wants to basically jerk off...He asks for honesty and then gets mad when he gets it. So he gets what he wants to hear, and then is dissatisfied with it because he doesn't feel like he got stroked enough.

Oddly enough, that was sort of the metaphor I'd been thinking of! :lol:

If he can't take criticism, he has no business being a writer. With that attitude, the only way he will ever get published is through self-publishing...(I have a bit of a peeve about writers who can't take criticism- it took me very little time to develop a thick skin, you need it in this business or any other creative pursuit)

Yeah, I hear you there. It took a while for me to build up a tolerance for criticism, but since I intend to be a published author someday, you better damn well believe I did it. I still don't *like* criticism, and tend to be a bit prickly about it, but I take it seriously, and try to make changes and learn from them.

Look, this person is going to get mad no matter what you tell him.

Since his getting mad is a given, why not tell him the truth?

"Look, I'm not going to critique your writing any more. Every time I give you honest criticism you taken it as personal attack on you. It's stressing me out and coming between us as friends. I'm not comfortable with it any more.

So I'm done. You can find someone else to critique your writing. I like you and consider you a friend but I'm simply not doing this for you any more."

Or words to that effect.

If he tries the old "but a real friend would do it" guilt trip, counter with your own.

"A real friend wouldn't try to guilt me into doing I've just told them I'm not comfortable doing."

This sounds like a good idea. I'll finish the job I agreed to, but yeah after that...no more.

Thanks so much for listening and giving feedback, everyone! I was really stressed about this, and I appreciate your help!

[bankworking]

My husband won't critique my writing anymore. Mostly because I tend to rewrite the same scene over and over and he gets bored with reading the same scene. He's promised he will read and critique the story when I finish the entire book, but not before. Maybe you can make a similar offer: "Let me take a look when you are ready for a FINAL edit..." But of course, that will only help if he's someone like me who takes five years to finish a book.

Since my husband won't critique my work while in-progress, I found an online writing forum where I can get individual scenes critiqued. And I discovered that just about every bookstore in my area has writing groups where you can read a scene for critique. Maybe you should suggest that your friend try one of those options?

Of course, my online group gives real critiques, not pats on the back, and we seriously won't even read something that has more grammatical errors than content, but at least it wouldn't be you pointing out those things.