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MoonCat
12-09-2010, 07:33 PM
Would anyone be kind enough to assist with research for a story?

I need to know how two 13-year-old boys would behave in a fight. Would they just go in with fists flying, or what?

Thanks for any help you can give. :D

Pedersen
12-09-2010, 07:38 PM
Really, that depends entirely on the personality of the two boys in question. If you've got a meek/mild one, he might just run. If both are stupid bully types, fists will fly outright. If one of them knows some sort of martial arts while the other doesn't, then that one is likely to stand back to wait for the other to make the first move.


There's too many variables, simply because we have too little information.

MoonCat
12-09-2010, 08:06 PM
OK.

Both have some training. One is still being taught; the other hasn't had any instruction for the past three years. Neither is timid. The stakes are higher for the one with less training.

KiaKat
12-09-2010, 08:20 PM
They'll react how you want them to react. These are your characters. You know them best. Consider the psychology of both of them, and go from there.

There are too many variables for us to contribute in a meaningful way. We don't know these boys like you do. Their age and gender have very little to do with how they'll react when faced with a potential fight. You need to figure out how the buildup to the fight happens, and whether these boys are the type to go in with fists flying, or the type to back down, or the type to run away.

MoonCat
12-09-2010, 08:34 PM
They'll react how you want them to react. These are your characters. You know them best. Consider the psychology of both of them, and go from there.

There are too many variables for us to contribute in a meaningful way. We don't know these boys like you do. Their age and gender have very little to do with how they'll react when faced with a potential fight. You need to figure out how the buildup to the fight happens, and whether these boys are the type to go in with fists flying, or the type to back down, or the type to run away.

I do know that, but I've never been a 13 year old boy. This is more a question of how boys in general think. I don't want my characters to react in a way that would make guys reading it say "guys don't do that" (and yes, I've run into this before, though in that case the issue wasn't fighting).

Neither one of them is going to back down or run away. I know the outcome of the fight, I'm just trying to get a peek into the male brain and figured the best way to do that is to ask an actual guy.

Greenday
12-09-2010, 08:38 PM
A couple bunches being thrown before it goes to the ground and turns into a wrestling match where little is accomplished.

OR

One kid completely gets his ass beat.

Gravekeeper
12-09-2010, 08:53 PM
A couple bunches being thrown before it goes to the ground and turns into a wrestling match where little is accomplished.

OR

One kid completely gets his ass beat.

Basically, exactly the same way two 13 year old girls would fight but without enough hair to go around for pulling purposes.

Greenday
12-09-2010, 09:10 PM
Basically, exactly the same way two 13 year old girls would fight but without enough hair to go around for pulling purposes.

And instead of scratching, guys punch.

Salted Grump
12-09-2010, 09:12 PM
And regardless of age, all guys know to go for the nuts if they have the chance. Even the 'reflex' action of trying to avoid the hit can sting.

MoonCat
12-09-2010, 09:16 PM
Basically, exactly the same way two 13 year old girls would fight but without enough hair to go around for pulling purposes.

Well, these kids have longer hair, but I always figured girls pull hair because they don't know any decent fighting moves.

And regardless of age, all guys know to go for the nuts if they have the chance. Even the 'reflex' action of trying to avoid the hit can sting.

And this is good to know. I've always wondered if guys would do that to each other.

Gravekeeper
12-09-2010, 09:45 PM
Well, these kids have longer hair, but I always figured girls pull hair because they don't know any decent fighting moves.


Knowing moves rarely factors into it as the mind of a 13 year old doesn't tend to stay that calm during a fight.


And regardless of age, all guys know to go for the nuts if they have the chance. Even the 'reflex' action of trying to avoid the hit can sting.

...they...do? When I was growing up going for the nuts was always considered the lowest, cheapest thing possible and liable to get you beaten by spectactors for being so cheap. I've never seen guys intentionally go for the balls in a fight in my entire life save for a Youtube clip or two ( Where he was promptly beaten by spectactors for being so cheap. )

Its always been considered a no go zone where I grew up. Which is to say both coasts of Canada.

Greenday
12-09-2010, 09:52 PM
Going for the nuts is a good way to get the crap kicked out of you by a large group. One fight I got in, while I played high school football, the other guy after getting beat by me tried to hit me in the balls. While I was disliked by a good portion of the team, they grabbed a hold of him and taught him why that's wrong.

Andara Bledin
12-09-2010, 10:58 PM
Well, these kids have longer hair, but I always figured girls pull hair because they don't know any decent fighting moves.
No. Girls pull hair because it's a really useful thing to grab.

Whenever I think of boys fighting, if it's a less emotional event, there'll be a lot of strikes attempted. If it's going to be very heat of the moment, then it's likely to go quickly to grappling/wrestling.

One of the main differences in the thought processes between boys and girls is that boys tend towards use of only one side of the brain at a time, so when things get emotional, rationality will often take a back seat. Girls, on the other hand, are more likely to use both sides consecutively, which means that we are more likely to be strategic with our spontaneous mayhem.

I never got into fights myself because I'm a pacifist and the other girls in my high school didn't know that and were afraid I'd win. :lol:

^-.-^

Gawdzillers
12-09-2010, 11:48 PM
All the fights I had as a 13 year old boy (and a 10 year old boy, and a 4 year old boy, and a 15 year old boy), were mostly shoving, shirt-pulling, choking, scratching, spitting, crying, and cussing. I had an orange belt in karate, but that all went out the window.

Gravekeeper
12-10-2010, 02:06 AM
One of the main differences in the thought processes between boys and girls is that boys tend towards use of only one side of the brain at a time, so when things get emotional, rationality will often take a back seat. Girls, on the other hand, are more likely to use both sides consecutively, which means that we are more likely to be strategic with our spontaneous mayhem.


Err....sorry. >.>

Women do tend to use both sides of the brain when approaching tasks that men tend to regulate heavily to one side ot the other. But only for basic tasks. Complex tasks cause both sexes to use both sides of their brain. Seeing as one side is language, emotion, and communication while the other side is logic, math, spatial memory, etc. You kind of need to form brain Voltron out of them to handle a complicated situation. Such as, well, a fight. -.-

When it comes to a fight, girls are just as vicious as boys ( if not more so, girl fights scare me. >.> ) and can be just as irrational. You can argue that boys are more likely to fight ( or girls are less likely due to social expections ) but I wouldn't dare tread on the Pandora's Box that is rationality between genders.

Rationality is an individual thing me thinks. I for one am 100% calm in a fight. This tends to end them 100% faster in my experience or stop them entirely before they begin.

Mishi
12-10-2010, 03:50 AM
I for one am 100% calm in a fight. This tends to end them 100% faster in my experience or stop them entirely before they begin.

QFT
That's exactly why I only had to defend myself a few times in a rather violent highschool. Also, boys do scratch. I had some pretty nasty gouges on my forearms from two seperate boys, all because I wouldn't let them intimidate and/or hurt me.

Back on topic, it all depends on the personalities of the people involved. I've seen boys around 13 wrestling over a percived insults and coming away with little to no injuries. I've also seen different boys of a similar age having full-fledged dirty fights, all the way to kicking someone while they're down. (My bratty tough-talking cousin is callous enough to post a Youtube video of their best friend getting their ass and head kicked on Facebook. Said friend also 'liked' it...brilliant :mad:)

MoonCat
12-10-2010, 05:51 AM
Thanks, everybody! I really appreciate your comments. You've given me several points to think about as I plot out the scene and develop the characters.

Irving Patrick Freleigh
12-10-2010, 06:01 AM
I always swung for the nose, but sometimes ended up missing and getting the eye instead.

One guy who tried to get into it with me ended up with the brightest shiner for a while. That made it worth the detention.

Another guy made a point of socking me in the gut. That always stopped me short. The last time he tried it....let's just say it's a good thing hate crime legislation didn't exist back then. (he was black; I am very white)

terakhan
12-10-2010, 10:08 AM
The only part of a 'motivational speaker' assembly I was forced to sit through, that I even thought worth remembering, was guys at that age who don't know how to fight, tend to do the wide hook shots like they are swinging a hammer, rather than straight jabs.

Just about all the input I have on amateur fighting. I was one of those relatively invisible, middle of the road kids that wasn't really liked or hated.

As for psychology, there are so many variables its not even funny. Lessons about fighting or not fighting from parents, shows watched, friends and/or girls watching, distance to authority figures, personal aggressive tendencies, aggression toward their opponent, etc.

blas
12-10-2010, 05:44 PM
I'm a full on shover, but I'm a 23 year old female, and I have only gotten into it with males, drunken males. They go down and hit the floor so much easier and with so much more force when they are drunk.

When I was younger, I just used to grab back if any girl went for my hair or I'd aim for the nose, easy way to get them down and get a chance to keep the upper hand.

I don't advocate fighting, just defending yourself and keeping creepy drunk men away from yourself.

Andara Bledin
12-10-2010, 06:13 PM
I've only ever really gotten physical while trying to break up others fighting.

I'm a bit on the vicious side; I'll hit high-pain, low-damage areas. When I was little, I'd bite. I wasn't interested in what was "fair," only in stopping the other person from wanting to fight with me.

^-.-^

MoonCat
12-11-2010, 06:31 AM
The only time I got into anything physical was when some dumb girl tried to pull a bandanna off my head. Without even thinking I just reached back and grabbed her arm and pulled.

She was on roller skates, so the momentum just sent her zipping a few feet away. Ended up dumped on her ass, screeching. She wasn't hurt. Never saw her again, though.

Mytical
12-11-2010, 11:26 AM
Me..I am much scarier when totally calm then when I was in full on bezerker mode. The angrier I get, the less control I have, while I don't feel pain when totally out of control..I don't get hit near as much as when I am in control.

As for 13 year old boys..it is more likely to become a wrestling match with whatever martial arts thrown out the window. Think more "Bar room brawl" then "Karate Kid."

draggar
12-11-2010, 03:56 PM
There are as many ways to answer that question as their are 13 year old boys.

I think the only way to truly answer the question is to see how guys here would have reacted when they were 13.

Upbringing, size, speed, heath, education, attitude, humor, diplomacy, etc.. are all factors in what would happen.

13 is what, 7th grade, just getting out of elementary school and looking towards high school in a few years (or middle school if your school district has it)?

When I was 13 I was bullied on, a lot, but was very good of getting out of fights, even if it meant running. Yes, I knew karate but I knew that the bullies were much stronger than me and could have lasted longer in a fight (especially with my asthma).

But, there were also kids in my class that would have fought you just for looking at them.

Jester
12-11-2010, 06:44 PM
Having been both a 13 year old boy AND a 13 year old boy in a fight, I think I'll weigh in.

One thing that is very important is motivation. WHY are they fighting. If it's some perceived slight, that's one thing. If one is trying to bully the other, that's something else. And if one or both are highly emotional, well, that's something completely different.

Most of my childhood, the "fights" I was in were bullies kicking my ass. I was smaller than most (still am), and had not yet developed my current method of avoiding fights, which is either talking or intimidating through psychology. Since I've detailed that enough on this site before, and it has nothing to do with the question at hand, I'll say no more about that.

There were three times in my childhood (fifth grade, seventh grade, and tenth grade) that there was a fight where I actually did the ass-kicking. Every one was against someone larger, and every time was because I got so pissed off, I went ballistic.

Fifth grade: Michael had bullied me all through grade school. He was bigger, he was stronger, and he always kicked my ass. Until the day, not that long after my father died, he made the mistake of saying something insulting about my father at recess. They took him to the nurse's office...once they pried my hands from around his neck. He never bothered me again.

Seventh grade (age of 13): Gary was a big fat fuck who took great joy in insulting me, and he started making comments to the effect of my mother being a whore. (I think it went something like "Your mother's a whore.") One day at lunch, he started in on this as he was sitting across the lunch table from me. I had had ENOUGH, and I snapped. Ignoring the fact that I was still a skinny little shit and that Gary outweighed me by probably 50 pounds or more, I launched myself OVER the lunch table and started pounding the shit out of him. When a teacher stepped in to stop the fight, I hit the teacher. We both went to the vice principal's office. When asked what happened, I very calmly and coldly gave the vp the facts, and steadfastly refused to apologize for my actions, as I saw them as completely justified. We were each suspended for a day (my only suspension from school ever). My mother, while she did not agree with my actions, understood them, and I got in no trouble on the home front. After leaving the vp's office, as we walked to our lockers, I very quietly, very calmly, and very coldly said to Gary, "If you ever talk to me again, I will fucking kill you." It was the first time I ever used that approach, and it basically worked. Over the next two and a half years, finishing junior high and starting high school, Gary only rarely talked to me, and always only to ask me about homework from a shared class....and always very politely.

Tenth grade: These two dopey stoner fucks had decided to make me their pet project, and harassed me much after school, often after I was done with track practice. One day, as I was walking down the sidewalk to meet my mom for a ride home, these two dipshits started in again. Right as my mom pulled up in her new car (that she had had all of two days), I had had enough from these two yahoos. I went off, and quickly grabbed one by the back of the head and slammed his head into the trunk of my mom's car. I was a skinny little shit of barely 130 pounds back then, so this shocked both of them, and they both took off, never to bother me again. My mom was unamused with how she got her first scratch on her new car.

Almost every other fight I had was less emotional and someone kicking my ass. When I had time to think about it (or someone sucker punched me), I was a punching bag. When I didn't stop to think and let my emotions take over, I was vicious and brutally effective.

These illustrations are to show you that what causes the fight and what the mindset is of each boy is just as important to the development, tactics, and outcome of the fight as any other factors.

When I was growing up going for the nuts was always considered the lowest, cheapest thing possible and liable to get you beaten by spectactors for being so cheap.

Its always been considered a no go zone where I grew up. Which is to say both coasts of Canada.

Agreed and disagreed. When and where I grew up, you didn't go for the nuts....unless one party was clearly outmatched by the other, i.e., big tough bully picking on a scrawny wimp. If that's the wimp's only chance, and that's readily evident, most guys I knew would shrug and say, "Well, he (the bully) had it coming."

In fights between equal opponents, though, intentional groin shots were definitely considered unacceptable.

I for one am 100% calm in a fight. This tends to end them 100% faster in my experience or stop them entirely before they begin.

I know I can't be the only one here that is shocked that GK has ever been in a fight, AND that would really, REALLY love to see him in one, and see him kick someone's ass.

No, seriously. How cool would THAT be? :super:

MoonCat
12-12-2010, 12:28 AM
Thank you, guys.

See, I've been a 13 year old girl, and I know how the mind works there. And I know that in a lot of ways, boys and girls aren't that different. It's an emotional time, a crazy physical time what with the hormones starting and all that, an awkward place between childhood and adolescence.

But there are some differences in the way boys and girls approach their problems, so I wanted to try and get into a boy's head a little and see how much is familar to me and how much is different. It gives me a starting point, a little bit of a roadmap through the native territory, so to speak.

Gravekeeper
12-12-2010, 01:16 AM
I know I can't be the only one here that is shocked that GK has ever been in a fight, AND that would really, REALLY love to see him in one, and see him kick someone's ass.

No, seriously. How cool would THAT be? :super:

You would be correct in surmising that I have not been in many fights. Nor have I ever, ever started a fight. I have calmed down people from attempting to start a fight with me on a couple of occasions. Even after one took a swing at me on one occasion. But I perfer reason and disarmament. Paragon route.

I guess the only serious fight I was in,in my high school days, ended in 30 seconds. I was visiting family, mainly my younger cousin who I did not see much, and he had this friend that lived a few blocks away. Around my age. But just a....jackass. Drank, smoked pot, foul mouthed racist jackass. Not exactly the sort of influence you want around your younger relatives. I made it clear I did not like the influence he might have on my cousin and asked him to reign that in. But I was always unfailingly polite. This went on for a week or so with my cousin hanging out with him, and me tagging along with my cousin ( My aunt didn't like this kid either ). But I mean it was just general hang out, watch a movie, bike around, whatever sort of crap.

But I guess he didn't like me, so one afternoon literally out of nowhere he sucker punched me. Right in the yard while the three of us were talking. Now I don't like fighting. I don't like getting in fights. I don't start fights. If you do attack me, my brain snaps to "End this. Now." and I move accordingly. I really don't think he expected me to not just stay on my feet but snap right back at him as he was laughing about "that's what you get" ( For what? No idea. ).

I grabbed him, kneed him in the gut to knock the wind out of him, stuck my hip into him and threw him over my shoulder flat on his back on the ground. Knocked every shred of wind out of him. Then I just told my cousin we were leaving and walked away while he laid there gasping ( and admittedly crying. Not a proud moment. ). Dunno how long he was there, but he never talked to my cousin ever again. Even after I left and came back home.

Both my aunt and my father knew something had happened after noticing the kid dissappear ( and when they did spot him, he dissappeared fast if I was outside with them ), but neither asked as they were admitted pleased he was gone. Only really saw him one more time after that when he was walking down the street near the store. He wouldn't even look me in the eyes and just hurried by. Little bastard.

If it had been just me it might have been different and I may have just asked him WTF he thought he was doing ( lest he actually persisted attacking ). But if you're going to fark with my family... ><

Jester
12-12-2010, 03:44 AM
You would be correct in surmising that I have not been in many fights. Nor have I ever, ever started a fight. I have calmed down people from attempting to start a fight with me on a couple of occasions. Even after one took a swing at me on one occasion. But I perfer reason and disarmament. Paragon route.

I mostly agree with your general philosophy here. My mouth has gotten me out of more fights than my fists ever could win. And I have talked others out of fights and gotten them away from situations as well. That being said, you have a bit more restraint than I do. With the exception of sucker punches, once someone has come at me, it's ON.

But just a....jackass. Drank, smoked pot, foul mouthed racist jackass.

Other than the racist part, this could very well have described me at various points in my career. Hell, I have no doubt that many people DID describe me in similarly unflattering ways on numerous occasion. C'est la vie.

Not exactly the sort of influence you want around your younger relatives.

It should be pointed out that your cousin was making a choice to hang out with this jackass. So the fault does not merely lie with the jackass. Just saying.

...he sucker punched me. Right in the yard while the three of us were talking.

I have been sucker punched three times.

Once in high school by a royal douchebag, because I made a suggestive joke about his former girlfriend in her presence, and to which she and everyone else laughed. And then he just punched me in the eye and skedaddled (since everyone else would have pounded him). I was in shock as much as anything, especially since I had been busy eating a salad, which went flying everywhere.

Once in college because of my smartass mouth. I don't recall the exact situation, but my friend DC and I were hanging out with this other guy that I thought was a tool, and I was just ragging on him, half joking, half not. Finally he just punched me right in the eye. With his ring hand. With a ring on. That. Fucking. Hurt. My only real shiner of my life.

And once for someone ELSE opening their mouth, believe it or not. My friend LB and I were walking along, and this car almost ran us over because the driver was an idiot. LB yelled something at the car, a natural reaction, and the thing screeched to a halt. Very small car. The same thing could not be said for the two ogres that lumbered out of it. Looking rather pissed. Before I could open my mouth to try to diffuse the situation, LB, who is a girl, went off on them, basically telling them as they advanced that she had been the one to yell at them, so if they wanted to cause shit with anyone, it was her, and were they actually going to hit a girl? Well, they didn't hit a girl. The next thing I remember, I was peeling my face up off the sidewalk. One of them (I don't know which) apparently sucker punched me in the face. Did I mention that both of them looked like they had just come from the gym? And that either one could have easily bench pressed both me and LB? No? Yeah. Well. I asked LB not to try to "help" in future such situations. :lol:

Getting sucker punched SUCKS.

I grabbed him, kneed him in the gut to knock the wind out of him, stuck my hip into him and threw him over my shoulder flat on his back on the ground. Knocked every shred of wind out of him. Then I just told my cousin we were leaving and walked away while he laid there gasping ( and admittedly crying. Not a proud moment. ).

See? I KNEW it would be cool! :cool:

Mytical
12-12-2010, 08:47 AM
You want a kind of comical scene to add to it? I have one.

It was after I started meditation, and basically become a pacifist. People still didn't bother me much, due to size and a reputation for my bezerk rages, but now it took a lot to get me angry. I was 5'10" and I think 175, my brother was 5'9..and about 140 (he was .. small..this factors in later). I was having a generally bad day, and despite my meditation techniques was getting angry. On the way home, my neighbor (who knew I had turned pacifist) decided they were going to pick on me. Expecting me to just shrug it off, and turn the other cheek.

By the time we arrived at the stop we both shared, I was ready to tear him apart. We got off, and he instantly starts up again. My brother had noticed the signs that I had developed when learning the meditation though. ((Sign 1, I start shaking. Sign 2..I start crying because I am trying hard not to get mad. Sign 3..I stop crying with no warning .. at all)). He looked at the neighbor, yelled "RUN!", picked me up and carried me in a bear hug up the hill. My father was at the top of the hill in our house yelling. "Let him go! Let them fight!". Now keep in mind my brother was smaller then me, but I wasn't angry at him, so he wasn't worried about me hurting him. Afterward, it was very comical.

Jester
12-12-2010, 04:13 PM
On the way home, my neighbor (who knew I had turned pacifist) decided they were going to pick on me. Expecting me to just shrug it off, and turn the other cheek.

Just because someone is a pacifist doesn't mean they are willing to be a victim.

Gravekeeper
12-12-2010, 06:03 PM
It should be pointed out that your cousin was making a choice to hang out with this jackass. So the fault does not merely lie with the jackass. Just saying.


Well, prob is my cousin was only 8 or 9 at the time if I recall, and had a 6 old brother. This was the older "cool" kid in the neighbourhood he hung out with and thus emulating. The younger would emulate the older. My aunt, a die hard Roman Catholic, was likely on the verge of a stroke.

9 year olds aren't great at judgement calls.


Getting sucker punched SUCKS.

Yes, yes it does. I am most fortunate that 15 year olds don't wear rings. Though I remember the surprise more than any pain to be honest. Didn't ache till after.

But yes, I am a total pacifist too. But being a pacifist doesn't mean you can't defend yourself from harm should harm come your way.

Jester
12-13-2010, 02:19 PM
I, on the other hand, am not a pacifist like you or my little sister. I not only will defend myself, there are times and situations I will start shit. Most of these situations would involve my nieces or a girl I am dating. You get the idea.

Mytical
12-14-2010, 07:35 AM
I am also a pacifist..when it comes to myself. However, family..friends etc..if you are bothering them..I will start shit (as Jester so elegantly put it). When I am on the job and you are doing something stupid or dangerous or both..I will start it. Myself? I am actually pretty hard to hurt.