Vista: And So It Begins

[Dips]

We just posted our the first Vista-compatible version of our software last week.

What that means is that earlier versions won't run on Vista. Folks who bought new software or updates in the last couple of years won't need to pay for this version; it's free. Folks who bought earlier than that will pay either 1/3 or 1/2 price (compared to the price of a new license) to update to it.

They also have the choice (for now) of not using Vista and, thus, not having to worry about updating our software.

We still expected to hear cries of anguish about this and we weren't disappointed.

We got our first one yesterday. It was quite civil. They had spent thousands on a new computer which had Vista, spent hundreds on the latest version of Office, called all their other AT providers and updated those, then they called us to see how to install 1999 software on Vista. They actually accepted the bad news with good grace and a minimum of grumbling as they bought the update.

I know it won't always go that well. We have more than a few entitlement-minded customers who think that spending thousands of dollars with other vendors is going to entitle them to special treatment from us. I know this because it's happened (see "The Year-Old-Software Returner" for a very extreme example). They also think that spending money once ten years ago entitles them to free stuff now because they are "very old customers." I wish I were kidding, but that one happens all the time.

I'm bracing myself. The next few years are going to be fun. :rolleyes:

[technical.angel]

The new Sports information person sent over their old laptop which was, well, old. It had been stepped on, and the harddrive was on it's way to failing. They want us to fix it. We managed NOT to laugh in their face.

The last person in the position had decided to get a new desktop rather than replacing the laptop, as we now only supply you ONE computer, desktop or laptop, not both.

The SI person, meanwhile went out to buy himself a laptop (out of his pocket), and wanted us to put our corp. license of Photoshop on it, and see why he couldn't update our website.

After calling down the webmaster, we determined that the plugin that's used to edit the website, being old and not really supported anymore, isn't Vista compatible. So we tell him to have his boss buy him a laptop to replace the one that died, and we'll put our copy of XP on it.

They go out and buy a Toshiba. All the drivers were compatible with Vista only. I thought the head of Athletics was going to kill us when we told him to get another one. They bought a Sony Vaio, it worked, the peasant rejoiced.

I'm not looking forward to the students gettin' Vista either...

:smash: :angel:

[LostMyMind]

Vista is going to die a quick painful death. It's got soo many problems. You can fix the problems by turning off the new "security" feature. But when you do, it's *gasp* just like XP.

I have no plans to get Vista. Not unless they put in serious backwards compatibility. Dropping 3 or 4 generations compatibility is fine, nobody grumbles when XP drop win3.0 and DOS compatibility. (yes, I know you can fake it) But when quite a bit of early Win95 programs wasn't working with XP, there was quite a bit of grumbles. But we accepted it, since it was 3 generations ago.

But to break programs that works fine in a single OS step backwards. You might as well not call it Windows and say it's a brand new OS.

[Acolyte]

I can see Vista being great...when they release SP2 and take care of all the compatability and security issues. Until then, I dread having to service it.

[Kilamon]

I still believe that Windows has a lot of catching up to do to get to the point where OS/2 was with Warp. It's too bad IBM never aggressively pursued a release with that. I beta tested and it was awesome (for the time). The voice control was excellent, it never needed a defrag, and the customizability was truly awesome.

Having said that, I should point out that Vista is not going to be on my system for another 2 years. By that time, some of the bugs and exploits should be fixed.

[Gurndigarn]

But to break programs that works fine in a single OS step backwards. You might as well not call it Windows and say it's a brand new OS.

Bloody hell, did they actually do that? Win2000/XP/etc stuff doesn't work on it? And here I thought it was too bad that macs weren't going to be able to support pre-OSX stuff on the intel-based macs.

[Depot Denizen]

It depends. Some software absolutely will not run in Windows Vista, even if it was perfect in XP. My uni's Symantec and Cisco VPN software is a great example of this. Even some other programs won't function (sometimes fully, sometimes not at all) in Vista. We've essentially been telling departments not to purchase Vista machines (as our tech services department is still working on supporting it), and we won't be offering the MCA for Vista or Office '07 until May or June. Which, actually coincides with our hopeful move to the new student center.

As far as the student machines go...our folks will be hard at work making sure our uni software packages work on Vista, as it's likely our Dells and Gateways will be shipping with Vista come Back To School. I'm not looking forward to it, and neither is the rest of my department. I'm one of the more knowledgeble people on our student consulting team (we man the dungeon Helpline doing phone tech support - I work two jobs at my uni), so I've been working with Vista when I can.

Ironically our supervisors have all but ordered us to play with Vista and Office '07 on our machines. We'll be forced to support the damn thing once the school year starts up, for better or worse.

[Dips]

But to break programs that works fine in a single OS step backwards.

Just like Apple. We used to have a Mac version of our software, but Apple kept coming up with new versions which wouldn't run it. O/S X was the last straw. There weren't enough sales to justify the cost of playing "keep-up with the Mac" so we stopped developing for it in 2001.

The best part was when Apple sent a rep to our company to try and convince us to continue development. They promised us everything but what we really needed: money to hire another programmer. The guy couldn't get his mind around the fact that we weren't about to take our people off profitable projects just to help Apple sell more Macs.

Nobody's happy with the status quo, but what can we do?

[LostMyMind]

Which is why Macs always had a small share of the market. Because they almost never had backwards compatibility and wasn't very friendly for developing on.

Microsoft is breaking what made their OS "safe" to upgrade to. Backwards compatibility and developer friendliness.

[Dips]

Microsoft is breaking what made their OS "safe" to upgrade to. Backwards compatibility and developer friendliness.

Yup. That is the one thing that MS should definitely NOT be trying to do like Apple and they went ahead and did it. And thousands of Windows developers :cry:

[Crosshair]

Windows Vista: Proof that just because it is newer, doesn't mean it is better.

[greensinestro]

Don't even get me started on this one! Since Vista came out, I have dealt with less than ten customers who have it, and nearly all of them, I think, were people that were scammed by a sales floor person eager to make his commission. Not a customer I've had was able to follow along, and many were not able to get the same screens and input information as what our "screenshots" show when we help them do a DUN connection. I hope it dies a quick but painful death.

[BravoOrig]

I had a beta release of Vista, but didn't play with it all that much. I was able to get it online to my wireless network and everything. Now that its out to the public, I'm having a tough time finding Local Area Connection to check that connection. One day we tried every different link, and the only choice it gave us for a new connection was wireless or PPPoE, which we are not. Then we got an email saying to shut down the computer, unplug its ethernet cable for a few seconds, then plug it back in as a fix. WTF Microsoft?

[EmiOfBrie]

Just like Apple. We used to have a Mac version of our software, but Apple kept coming up with new versions which wouldn't run it. O/S X was the last straw. There weren't enough sales to justify the cost of playing "keep-up with the Mac" so we stopped developing for it in 2001.

Erf....2001/2002 was around the time Mac stopped those games. Their backward compatibility between the differing versions of OS X has been rather good, likely due to the fact that they all run on top of BSD Unix. I have programs on my system that I got back during 10.1 that still run fine on 10.4.8 :)

[blas]

I'm really starting to wish I had put more thought and selection into my laptop. Even though a computer isn't an "emergency" per say, I'm going to need one for college anyway, and I couldn't go much longer paying for cable internet I wasn't using. Practically a few days after my roomate took the computer, I hopped on the internet and picked the first and cheapest laptop to catch my eye.

I've been getting a lot of "Oh blas, you didn't....." when friends who are more computer oriented than I am come to see it.........and I've heard the tales on here. I'm starting to think I made a dumb decision.

My roomate told me, "I'm not sure if it's because it's a Dell or if it's that damn Vista"

[sld72382]

To tell you the truth, the calls I have gotten for Vista haven't been all that bad. Some were great. The other day, a client's Gateway would not start up. I had him put in the Vista DVD, it detected the errors and BOOM, fixed. If that was XP he would have had to wipe out and start over.

The biggest issue is not with the O/S, but with people who think that 5-7 year old software is going to work with it. Take Office 2000 and XP, for example. They will install but they have HUGE issues with running on Vista. When I tell them that only 2003 and up work with Vista, they get mad that they have to *gasp* buy new software that works. :rolleyes:

Another issue is that PC manufacturers are putting Vista into cheap PCs with only 512mb of RAM. People buy these PCs and then call us and complain that they put one lousy app in and the PC is running poorly. Unfortunately, it's tough to tell them they need to upgrade the memory to at least 1GB (or exchange it for one that does) without them screaming back at you "then why would they sell a computer that needs to be upgraded out of the box?!"

[SuperDan]

Unfortunately, it's tough to tell them they need to upgrade the memory to at least 1GB (or exchange it for one that does) without them screaming back at you "then why would they sell a computer that needs to be upgraded out of the box?!"

Could it be that they make next to no store profit or commission if applicable on that computer, but they make a crapton on the ram chips you'll be buying within the first month?

[Casino Jockey]

i have a friend of mine that works in an electronics store here in australia.
they have 2 types of stores (regular stores with limited range, and superstores that stock things like DVD's, Cds and computers) and he works at a superstore. the only computers they are selling at the moment that support vista are... the macs that they sell. :)

[Raerlynn]

Ugh. I work at an ISP, and a big shout out to the brilliant genius in Microsoft who decided to rewrite every. freaking. connection error code to output the same error code. Case in point:

WinXP

Error 676 - Line is busy (DSL server screwup)
Error 678 - Remote Computer did not respond (generic connectivity error)
Error 691 - Username/Password
Error 769 - Destination Host Unreachable (Usually NIC-related)

Win Vista

Error 815 - Failed to connect. [Line is busy] (DSL server screwup)
Error 815 - Failed to connect. [Remote Computer did not respond] (generic connectivity error)
Error 815 - Failed to connect. [Username/Password]
Error 815 - Failed to connect. [Destination Host Unreachable] (Usually NIC-related)

Note that the parts in braces/parentheses do NOT show up on screen. Thus problems that occur in Vista all share the same error code. Anyone else see why this could be a small problem?

[Great Unknown]

except when friends and family go out and get screwed into V!$#@ when they buy a new computer and want me to help set up their system/network...

I'm so glad I decided to go Linux before V!$#@ came out.

Random Stranger Looking Over My Shoulder: "So... how much does that GIMP software there cost?"

Me: It's free.

RSLOMS: A hundred bucks? Two hundred?

Me: No, really! It's free!

RSLOMS: You mean, free, like costs nothing?! *incredulous*

Me: Yeah, free, as in freedom, and free, as in free beer. Free.

RSLOMS: *wanders away, still gape-mouthed*

[IlovemyGeek]

I wish I could get rid of Windows on my home PC. My hubby has Linux on both his systems; for mine I have a custom built PC that he made and a Mac but I can't switch b/c when we do web design, it helps to be able to test it on IE6. Vista is rearing its ugly head at my day job too. For us, Vista plus IE7 = not working anytime soon and folks don't understand why they need to download Firefox when they just bought a new system. Its all the additional security Microsoft used, it completely farks with our service and I can't even troubleshoot it b/c we're still on XP.

[RichS]

Another issue is that PC manufacturers are putting Vista into cheap PCs with only 512mb of RAM. People buy these PCs and then call us and complain that they put one lousy app in and the PC is running poorly. Unfortunately, it's tough to tell them they need to upgrade the memory to at least 1GB (or exchange it for one that does) without them screaming back at you "then why would they sell a computer that needs to be upgraded out of the box?!"

Let me guess - Dell, right?

They were notorious for selling XP machines with only 128MB RAM. Runs fine new out of the box, but install a few apps, and they slowed to a crawl.

We'd get the result, and tell them they needed to boost their memory at least another 128MB, a little more if they had onboard video with shared memory. And, of course, we'd have to special order more expensive memory specific to the machine, because Dells are too special to run standard memory.

"But I don't want to spend that, it was working fine before!" was a common response...:rolleyes:

[Crazyredhead]

I have a question. Now I do understand computers, to a point. I'm not technically savvay, even though my hubby thinks so. I am going to buy a computer (hopefully), would it be better to get XP or windows. I am having a hard time finding XP anymore as everything is now Vista. I was XP that is upgradeable to Vista. I don't know the first thing about building my own computer and will have to go with something already put together at the store. I want AMD, but I heard that Intel is coming out with better chips. This computer will do everything, burn CD's/DVD's, run company software, play games, word processing, cook dinner, money management, internet, handle my printer, Adobe, and a slew of other things. I am looking for a 350gb hard drive and a 2gb memory that is expandable to 4gb. I know what I want but I don't know much more than that. I just wat to make the best decision since this will cost me between 15 and $2000.00. The one that I have currently is almost 6 years old and still running strong, and this new one will, hopefully, last as long.

[LostMyMind]

If you don't have any favorite software or games now, then Vista will be fine for you as long as you have enough memory, processing power, etc...

Look at Vista box at any store, see their min requirement. That's a computer that will run Vista and nothing else. :lol:

Almost everything has issues running on Vista. Unless the software was written for Vista (and not many are), you're going to have problems. That also includes drivers for any devices (printers, web cams, etc....). So unless the company software is written for Vista, find a company that will put XP on the computer.

The company I used often still offer XP, you just have to select it. Or take the XP from your old computer and install it on the new computer. Just get all the XP drivers for the components.

[Banrion]

You can still buy Windows XP OEM from Newegg for $85.00, so if you find something you like that comes with Vista, you can always wipe it and install XP for not a whole lot more.

[trunks2k]

I have a question. Now I do understand computers, to a point. I'm not technically savvay, even though my hubby thinks so. I am going to buy a computer (hopefully), would it be better to get XP or windows.

XP is a version windows :p

I am having a hard time finding XP anymore as everything is now Vista.

Yep, all the major computer makers are distributing their computers with Vista installed. I don't know if anyone is selling them with XP anymore.


I was XP that is upgradeable to Vista. I don't know the first thing about building my own computer and will have to go with something already put together at the store.


Local shops, rather than the big chain stores, would probably put one together for you.


I want AMD, but I heard that Intel is coming out with better chips. This computer will do everything, burn CD's/DVD's, run company software, play games, word processing, cook dinner, money management, internet, handle my printer, Adobe, and a slew of other things.

Meh, your CPU won't really matter if it's AMD or Intel, at least with the modern ones there's not too much of a difference, at least if you aren't doing hardcore gaming.


I am looking for a 350gb hard drive and a 2gb memory that is expandable to 4gb. I know what I want but I don't know much more than that.


Most motherboards come with four slots for RAM, which would give you up to 4GB And as a side note, be careful with your capitalization. In computer terms "b" means bit, while "B" means byte, which is 8 bits. Doesn't really matter in this case, but some people get themselves confused over that when it comes to certain things.


I just wat to make the best decision since this will cost me between 15 and $2000.00. The one that I have currently is almost 6 years old and still running strong, and this new one will, hopefully, last as long.

*smirks* $2000 is waaaaaaaay more than enough money if you aren't buying a monitor. Really, you can easily put together a high-mid performance system on your own for under $1000. Check local dealers and see if they can help you buy parts or put the parts together for you if you aren't comfortable doing it on your own. But really, modern computers are simple to put together. It's very much "put the thing with three pins on the thing that also has three pins". The only annoying part can be connecting the power and reset switch for the case to the motherboard.

If you want to be adventurous and buy all your own parts and have someone put it together for you or even do it yourself, here's the basic steps t buying stuff:

1. Figure out what CPU you want. If you decide you want an AMD chip, I suggest getting an AMD X2 flavor. Each CPU has a "socket" type that tells you what type of motherboard it will fit. For AMD chips, I suggest being sure the chip is an AM2 socket type, since that's what all the new AMD chips are designed to fit, so it will make future upgrades/replacments easier. I don't know anything about pentium chips so I can't give advice on those.

2. Finding a motherboard
--- a.) Get a motherboard that has a PCI express 16x slot. Most modern motherboards have this. It's the replacement for the AGP slot. Your video card is going to fit into this slot and few modern/good video cards use AGP anymore.
--- b.) Look at the RAM it is compatible with. DDR2 is the most common RAM type now-adays, so you should get one that supports it.
--- c.) Get one that supports SATA 3.0Gb/s (SATA II ?) connections, as the modern hard drives are moving away from IDE and towards SATA. IDE is the type with those big, thick ribbons. SATA 3.0 Gb/s connections looks a bit more like a USB connection (small rectangularish connections about inch by a half inch).
--- d.) Get something that is SLI compatible (or the analogous thing for non-Nvidia stuff, I forgot what it's called). You may not want or need it now, but you might in the future.

3. Find a video card. Hopefully you chose a motherboard with a PCI express slot. Most modern video cards use this type of slot. Get a card with no less than 128MB memory, prefferably 512, but 256 is just fine. Other than that, check various reviews. You shouldn't need to pay any more than $150 for a video card.

4. Find your ram. Make sure the RAM type is compatible with the motherboard. Most of the time the motherboard specs will list exactly what type of RAM it supports so it should be pretty self-apparant. Get RAM in matching pairs. i.e. If you are going to get 1 Gig of RAM, get two 512MB RAM chips rather than a single 1 gig RAM chip. This is so you can utilize dual channel RAM, which is much better performance.

5. Find your hard drive. Should be SATA compatible, as many modern drives are. Don't just look at size, look also at things like cache size and average seek times. The larger the cache the better, the lower the seek time the better. If you want to go all out and try for a RAID setup of some sort, you want to buy two of the same drives.

6. Find your media devices. DVD Burners are under $50 nowadays. These are pretty simple to get, they all tend to use the same connection type (IDE), so there's only quality and price to consider rather than compatibility.

7. Find a case and power supply. You can cheap out on a case, but sometimes a cheap case can cause problems. Look at reviews and see how well things like airflow are in it, and how sturdy it is. Power supply is something you don't want to cheap out on. Look for something that is at least 400 watts and make sure the number of pins for the part that connects to the motherboard is the same as the number of pins that is on the motherboard. Occasionally they don't match up and you have to spend a couple dollars to buy a connector that converts between the two.

oh yeah, you'll probably need to buy a floopy drive as well just in case, but thoe only cost like $10. Those are all standard stuff so there's no need to worry about compatibility.

If you decide to buy all your own parts, use newegg.com

[Geek King]

Just a note:

Cyberpower (www.cyberpowerpc.com) lets you pretty much build your computer online, and you can still order it with XP, with a free Vista upgrade. They also take care of any issues in a timely manner (I had a motherboard go bad shortly after recieving my first compy from them, not thier fault, it happens sometimes). I've bought my last two gaming machines from them.

EDIT: Oops, had the wrong URL there, I have it fixed now. Sorry to anyone who went to the chat area I had accidentally listed!

[trunks2k]

Just a note:

Cyberpower (www.cyberpower.com) lets you pretty much build your computer online, and you can still order it with XP

Suuurree. Just take away all the fun of putting together an expensive piece of electronics when you have no idea what you are doing :p

[Spankmonkey]

Vista is going to die a quick painful death.

Yeah, we just got a new vista machine here. It's retarded, it's like someone was looking over the Apple Guys shoulder while taking the test for their programming degree.

Vista is a huge turn away from Windows.. it's Windows, yet it isn't. Still the same crap underneath, just with more added pictures and confusing menus. Hey let's change all the system control panels just to mess with people. What a retarded move.

the Gadgets bar, a very lame implementation, the widgets are often bulky and they're always on your screen and you have to go through so any things to get them back up of you click them off. The Mac you just click on Dashboard and there are your widgets.

As you can tell I'm more of a Mac guy, I do work on both computers at my job. And supporting the Mac is a dream in comparison to a windows machine. Normally everything works right away on the Mac, no playing with driver versions like the windows side.. True device plug and play on the mac, compared to Plug and Play around with it until you suffer from patchy baldness because you tore the hair from your scalp.

Windows from what I have experienced is kind of like a deck of cards, if all the parts are compatible, and you have all the drivers and everything you need it has a tendency to be relatively stable. But that can all of a sudden change and bring the whole system down.

I prefer Linux or Mac definitely, Windows is like the Relative you have to invite to family gatherings because the rest of your family would make you feel guilty if you didn't. Windows is like the kid that sits on the stool in the class room with the cone shaped hat on his head.:roll:

[Dips]

Erf....2001/2002 was around the time Mac stopped those games. Their backward compatibility between the differing versions of OS X has been rather good, likely due to the fact that they all run on top of BSD Unix. I have programs on my system that I got back during 10.1 that still run fine on 10.4.8 :)

Good to know, but it's too late. OS X was the breaking point and the cost of developing for its successors is too high especially with no guarantees that Apple won't yank the rug out again. Sales of the Mac version were never that high to begin with, so throwing more resources at it is a waste of time and money from our perspective.

It's not a matter of bias; it's a matter of economics. We don't hate Macs or Mac users (unless they start obnoxiously proselytizing or acting like we're in some evil conspiracy with Bill Gates; even then I wouldn't say we hate them; it's more like a dull throbbing of annoyance), we just want to make enough money to stay in business. That means Windows, even if they messed up with Vista.

[SuperB]

I'll be shopping for a new laptop soon and am hoping I can still buy a new one with XP. I have a ton of graphic programs and 3D applications that I cannot afford to replace simply to appease a new os.

[BravoOrig]

Will Vista be the new Windows ME? I've only played around with a beta copy of Vista, so I'm waiting awhile to get my hands on the official release. Of course I never had much trouble with Windows ME, so I never formed the bad opinion of it that others have.

[ArenaBoy]

My dad just got Vista and while he is not a OS X fan he agrees that it's a blatant rip-off and it's not as smooth as OS X. (Yes I'm a Mac geek also.) While my dad is a wizard at computers and can figure out problems without calling tech support, he says that those who aren't too good with computers are going to be frustrated.

As for it being a copy of Mac, I messed around with Vista and can say that it's clunky and until they smooth the bugs out there will be some very pissed off techs.

[MadMike]

My son was all excited about it, and last time we were at Circuit City, he was playing with it on one of the display machines, telling me it was "So cool!"

But the more we played around with it, the more we agreed that it was all eye candy and no substance, and that it certainly wasn't worth the outrageous cost of the software, or of the new hardware we'd most likely need.

In the end, we agreed it was "Another ME."

I'll hold onto XP for awhile longer, maybe even until the next Windows comes out. Unless the next one blows just as badly as this one.

[Rapscallion]

I think Vista will be a great success once they take it out of beta.

Rapscallion

[Dips]

Speaking of unusually long beta periods...

We've had Longhorn/Vista in house for years. We are under NDA and can't go into details, but there were some early features and proposed features that were giving our developers nightmares. I guess we weren't the only ones because they aren't in the final product. :)

We're kind of banking on our customer base's traditional frugality while the kinks get worked out of Vista.

Our main problem is going to be the customers who are forced to buy a new computer to replace their Win95 machine which finally went to computer heaven. They are going to call us expecting we can help them get the 1998 all-floppy-disk version of our software onto their Vista laptop (which won't have a floppy drive) without their having to spend any money buying an update. And their justification for that will be that they already spent a lot of money somewhere else replacing the computer, therefore we can't expect them to spend money with us replacing the software.

The fact that we wouldn't be there to help them at all if we don't make money never crosses their minds. :rolleyes:

[Geek King]

Well, I've finally gotten used to the Vista machine I just bought, and I can't say it's that terrible. My only real issue with it is the IE7, and that isn't really a problem with Vista itself. It took a bit of noodling to get some of my games to work, but after figuring out how to set them up to run as XP SP2 and have them run as by administrator, things are working pretty well.

One thing I do need to do is find out how to set specific programs so the security just lets them through to the Internet without asking every time. It's not really that annoying, certainly not as bad as that snootty Mac commercial would have you believe.

I did get rid of the gadget bar on the desktop. I like an uncluttered desktop, and keep my icons down to one column on the side.

Long story short: I don't think this will be another ME, and I don't think it is just a graphical upgrade. Things definately work different here, and mostly behind the scenes. It is a very different layout (and I don't agree with some of the placement, but I can move them around if needed), so will take some getting used to. I think that may be alot of people's main complaint. In the long run, I think this will be the working model for the next bit.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong*

* Internet cookies to those who get the reference.

[LostMyMind]

It took a bit of noodling to get some of my games to work, but after figuring out how to set them up to run as XP SP2 and have them run as by administrator, things are working pretty well.
Isn't that turning off the "security" for that application?
One thing I do need to do is find out how to set specific programs so the security just lets them through to the Internet without asking every time.
I've had that feature since Win95. I still have that feature on my current computer. My firewall does that (I use a different one than what comes with the OS). If Microsoft had added a much better firewall with the SP2, there would be no need for Vista
I did get rid of the gadget bar on the desktop.
That is a theft from MacX
I like an uncluttered desktop, and keep my icons down to one column on the side.
strangely enough, me too. However my parents love to have all kinds of "shortcuts/alias" on the desktop.
Things definately work different here, and mostly behind the scenes.
That the biggest problem, because it works differently behind the scenes. There going to be problems down the road.

From Win3.0 to WinXP, the function hooks used were the same. Microsoft made a point to leave it in there so that older programs can run without major issues. Meanwhile newer ones stop using those hooks. This is why you can pull up most win3.0 programs and it will work on XP. Now that Vista is built from the ground up (if we to believe that), those old hooks aren't there anymore.

I understand why Microsoft is doing this. Not too many people at Microsoft now are from those days. And there are too many "programmers" coming out of school with no clue as to how it was done in those days. They have to build a new OS so they can build and improve it. I just wish they been honest with everyone and said "This is not Windows anymore."

[Rapscallion]

One thing I do need to do is find out how to set specific programs so the security just lets them through to the Internet without asking every time. It's not really that annoying, certainly not as bad as that snootty Mac commercial would have you believe.


Best take I've seen on those commercials...
http://www.leasticoulddo.com/comic/20060815

Rapscallion

[Rapscallion]

Parents just upgraded to a new computer. If it had one Gb of ram, it would be better than mine *wince*

Well, apart from the graphics. It's got onboard graphics (I'll have to see what grade they are).

So far, it's pretty, but it's still installing. I may let you know more when I have more to report, or if you bug me.

EDITNOTE - it's actually supposed to have 1Gb, but currently claiming 768. Hmmm...

Rapscallion

[rvdammit]

Raps

Sounds like shared ram as it's got on board graphics. That's a trick usually reserved for, and expected on, laptops.

[Rapscallion]

Mmm - adding a decent video card will probably negate warranty etc. Bugger.

Problem is, to get around that, I'd need to take it back to PC World (it seemed like a reasonable price at the time).

The installation so far...

Reasonably painless, only requiring one forced reboot. It failed to burn the first recovery CD-ROM, but since it gave me really bad grammar in the error message I was more miffed at that than anything else. Also, it was the ACER message, not Vista, that caused the grammatial faux pas. I'm trying to get it recognising the Internet. Now I have the correct device driver (49Mb for a USB adapter!), I should be able to get that going properly, but it's a bit of an arse so far.

Rapscallion

[Rapscallion]

After trying to get the wireless connection working with the correct drivers for both Vista and the equipment, I've come to the conclusion that Vista is about as stable as a caffeinated, twelve-tailed cat in a room full of perpetual-motion rocking chairs.

Rapscallion

[rvdammit]

Mmm - adding a decent video card will probably negate warranty etc. Bugger.

It shouldn't negqate the warranty, unless they're total asses. Adding any sort of card should be an upgrade performable by the user without warranty.

What model computer is it?

[Rapscallion]

Theres a warranty strip helping to keep the case closed...

Rapscallion

[Rapscallion]

Hmm - after paying for a network cable, the wireless network works fine, as long as there's a cable involved to pass the data through. Yay!

From what I can see, though, the trick with installing Vista is to let it fuck one thing up at once. Maybe it's because there's an ACER background proggie running, but this seems flakier than me after ten minutes in direct sunlight.

Rapscallion

[rvdammit]

Theres a warranty strip helping to keep the case closed...

Rapscallion

I would say it's FUBARED then.

[XXDarrienX]

I am aware of the issue with Vista except despite working in IT and working on computers for around six years my g/f is looking at a pc she says is a good computer. Guess what? Its got Vista on it and not only Vista but a wapping 512mb of RAM. She gives me this look when I tell her that your going to run Vista and thats it and ofcourse calls me an idiot. I tell her shes going to have to upgrade it out of the box to be able to do anything with it and she says that I am also buying a computer I will have to upgrade out of the box. Unlike her little 500 buck pc my system is a dual core AMD custom built gaming system. I wasn't aware that my computer sucked. >_>

[skeptic53]

I am one of the legions waiting for SP2 before buying a box with Vista. I've been pretty happy with XP Pro, it was much better than Win98.

I probably would be a Mac person except that work uses PC's, and the portability/connectivity/familiarity with using the software was an issue for a long time.

On the other hand, we got my father an iMac in 2001 when OS-X first debuted. We did so because he is in his 80's and not all that computer savvy, although he's pretty good for a guy his age. We chose the Mac because of the jungle drums that have been pounding forever about its ease of use, intuitiveness, stability, reverses the aging process, cures cancer, you'll get the hot chicks, etc etc. Also we wanted to avoid the problems with the debut of XP that are now being mimicked by the onslaught of Vista.

I went with him to a local Mac user group for quite awhile. I must say I was very, very unimpressed. Neither my dad nor I found OS-X at all intuitive. Like XP it was a huge change from prior Mac OS's, and a lot of the Mac-savvy gurus at the user group were having problems getting it to work, getting peripherals to work, connecting to internet, to networks. It was all very PC-like. Then Apple started releasing an upgrade to the OS it seemed like every few months, and charging for each upgrade (no free SP2 download). They're about to go to v. 10.5 (leopard, rrrawrr) and I guess most of the bugs have been worked out. My dad still has occasional problems with his computer but much less than with OS 10.0

Linux is tempting but I have a strong feeling it involves way more tinkering than I have time or knowledge for.

Several posters have decried about people being upset that older software won't run on newer OS's, which a valid criticism up to a point. On the other hand, they let 1957 Chevy's on the freeway. You can still use a dial phone, a TV with rabbit ears, a transistor radio.

My biggest pet peeve is the assumption by developers, especially web developers, that EVERYONE can afford the latest giant-size hard drive, tons of RAM, is running the latest version of any browser, and does not mind having the rug pulled out from under them every year or two years in terms of where things are, what they are called, how to navigate, etc etc.

Between Microsoft & Comcast it often feels like Don Quixote tilting at windmills

[technical.angel]

Several posters have decried about people being upset that older software won't run on newer OS's, which a valid criticism up to a point. On the other hand, they let 1957 Chevy's on the freeway. You can still use a dial phone, a TV with rabbit ears, a transistor radio.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Roads haven't changed.

You can use a rotary phone to call individuals, but you're screwed if you're calling someone who uses any automated functions.

[skeptic53]

You are comparing apples to oranges. Roads haven't changed.

You can use a rotary phone to call individuals, but you're screwed if you're calling someone who uses any automated functions. Of course its somewhat apples & oranges, which is why I said it was a valid criticism up to a point. And, last time I checked, Rte 66 is mostly gone and replaced by I-10.

Older technology will always have limits in the modern world, the old Sylvania console isn't gonna produce HD images. But you can still watch network TV. Most, but not all, automated systems have an option to stay on the line to talk to somebody, so there are limits.

But if you cannot see a website AT ALL because you have to have Vista & IE-7 (and only IE-7) that bugs me. Particularly if it is a public website such as local property tax records etc that doesn't have to be graphics-intensive. I'm making up this particular example but it is based on an actual occurrence in 1999, the local county database demanded as a minimum the latest browser and a fast modem connection. If your computer was more than one year old you were screwed. Back then I didn't feel the need to be able to see the county logo in animated full color in order to be able to access public records. The library did the same thing in early 1999. Wanna put a book on hold? Better have Win98 or better with the latest IE version and a fast modem, or ride your horse and buggy down to the library and do it in person.

[Rapscallion]

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20070331 is pretty much spot on from my experiences.

Rapscallion

[sld72382]

I like Vista, it loads from boot to desktop is less than 40 seconds (then again I have RAID 0 and 2GB of memory).

I think the main issue here is people are trying to install software and/or drivers that are old and will not work and then they are blaming it on the O/S. Example: "my version 2000 of X software won't work! Whaah!" and then comes the "Now I have to buy new software and actually have to open my wallet whaah!"

[Crosshair]

I think the main issue here is people are trying to install software and/or drivers that are old and will not work and then they are blaming it on the O/S. Example: "my version 2000 of X software won't work! Whaah!" and then comes the "Now I have to buy new software and actually have to open my wallet whaah!"
No, Vista has problems more basic than that.

1. Obscene hardware requirements: The whole point of an operating system is to be functional while consuming as FEW resources as possible. Even relativly new computers won't run Vista well.

2. Breaks stuff it shouldn't: Microsoft really did a half-assed job at making Vista backwards compatable with even Windows XP. Seriously, either make it 99.99% backwards compatable or don't bother. Don't screw with us saying it is backwards compatable when it breaks anything more complex than a Powerpoint. "Hmmm, it breaks things I have paid for and use, why should I upgrade again."

3. Security through obscurity: Moving things around and making things hard to find do not make a computer more secure or harder for a user to screw it up. The new security methods used are not well implimented and not an improvement.

4. Tries to do too much at once: Get all this crap off of the screen.

5. Has not addressed fundimental problems with Windows. The registry system was a mess when it was introduced and has not improved. Letting user data be stored among program files makes backups difficult and the system easily becomes cluttered.

6. Useless DRM.

The only way Microsoft can get new sales is to plan obsolescence into XP (No DX10 support that I am aware of) and forcing all new computers to come with Vista installed instead of giving consumers a choice.