Westboro Baptist Church ordered to pay $11.9 million

[Will-Mun]

Certain things are not protected under the 1sh Amendment. You can't yell "fire" in a theater, for instance. You can't stalk or harass people. The ruling must have charged them with something, I'm just not entirely sure what. Hate speech, inciting riots or whatever, harassment. The 1st Amendment does not grant you freedom to say whatever you want whenever you want to whomever you want to say it to. There are limits.

I would be really interested in learning how all this charge was worded.

The first Amendment is in place to protect any speech... The first amendment protects the most HEINOUS Neo-Nazi Hate Speech, and the doe eyed blather of tree hugging, government hating hippies. You can say WHAT you want, WHEN you want.

You cannot scream 'Fire' in a theater for the simple reason that it will inevitably cause a panic, and may end up causing injuries that you would be held accountable for.

It's also because Theaters are PRIVATE Businesses. Private Businesses are allowed to run themselves as they please, this means they can and will enforce language restrictions, IE asking you, and quite possibly forcing you to leave if you become unruly, vulgar, or swear. Once OFF their property, you may once again speak as you please.

This is not about the Fist Amendment... Fred Phelps, as much as I hate the man, was COMPLETELY in his legal right to protest that Funeral, he's a scumbag... but the 1st Amendment LETS him be a scumbag.

This is civil court, the "crime" is emotional damage and harassment, which of course, is quite believable when some dick hole is telling you your son is burning in hell while you're trying to bury him.

Can I Help your A$$ is completely right, it's not a privilege given to us, it's a basic right in this country, some people seem to have forgotten that...

Then again there are those who have not.

[myswtghst]

As you can see, Rapscallion, the First Amendment has become a joke here, and many people don't seem to care much about it anymore.

Recent poll showed that 90% or something like that of 18-30 year-olds believe that free speech "goes too far." They have no concept that free speech also means allowing people to say stuff that makes you want to kill them. The heroes of days gone by--heroes who upheld the concept of free speech, are either dead--Frank Zappa, or abhorred.

This country is screwed.

While I do agree with you, that free speech in some contexts has become a joke, I also feel that some people do take it too far--such as situations like this. It's one thing to voice your opinion even when others might not agree, but it's quite another to do one in such a blatantly hurtful and disgusting way. It's one thing to say that you don't approve of homosexuality, which you have every right to believe, but it's quite another to show up at a soldier's funeral and make unkind remarks to the mourners.

I have friends who are journalists, and I relish the fact that they are able to express themselves, even if their beliefs do not match those of everyone else in the world. I would be disappointed if they held their tongues to be PC, but I also appreciate when they find ways to note that it is their opinion or do it in a respectful way.

And anyways, not to go too OT or get sent to Fratching, I agree with the OP, I'm glad that a statement is being made that this behavior is unacceptable. Because it should not ever be allowed, accepted or let go unpunished, IMO.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I agree that loathsome speech is in fact protected under the 1st Amendment. I live in the same town as Maurice Bessenger (the racist barbeque king, maybe you've heard of him. ) He has in the past actually handed out racist propaganda at his store. He certainly has that right, although I also have the right to not support him with my business. The flakey anti abortion fanatic who parades around on the street out in front of Maurice's (I love this town, it's colorful) has a right to make a spectacle of himself each and every day (which he does, with enthusiasm). I totally support their right to express themselves.

At some point, though, some speech becomes something that breaks a law. I personally am not sure where that line is (although in this case, I am really interested to find out). Yelling fire could cause a riot, so that's why that's illegal. I THINK calling a guy a nr is considered "fighting words", (not sure what that means. It might mean if you get your ass kicked after saying it, the guy might get off with a slap. I dunno.) So I suppose a case might be made that showing up at a funeral saying shit like "thank God for dead soldiers" could be construed as inciteful or hate speech.

I mean, if they just paraded around the street like Abortion guy here in town, or gave out pamplets like Piggy Park guy, it would be free speech. Show up in a crowd of mourners and say it, and it's likely something else entirely.

[DarthRetard]

Methinks this may need to go over to fratching from the looks of it, eh what?

[Broomjockey]

"fighting words", (not sure what that means. It might mean if you get your ass kicked after saying it, the guy might get off with a slap. I dunno.).

Basically right. Here, what it means is a word or phrase so provocative and inflammitory, that a "reasonable man" (the standard which law is supposed to be applied to ) cannot be expected to respond in anything other than an aggressive manner, meaning diminished capacity in any ensuing charges. Not sure if it goes all the way up to and including murdering the inciting party, though in a case like that it'd be manslaughter anyway, and probably dropped to involuntary.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

At some point, though, some speech becomes something that breaks a law. I personally am not sure where that line is (although in this case, I am really interested to find out).

I think what you keep forgetting, RK is that this is a civil case, not a criminal one.

Westboro was not charged with any crimes. They were not convicted of any crimes. They did not break any criminal laws. Their right to free speech or lack thereof is not in question here.

They were sued by a private individual who claimed that while using (abusing?) their right to free speech, they caused him and his family severe emotional distress, and he sought monetary damages from them for doing so. The civil court agreed with him, and awarded him the damages. It has nothing to do with them committing any criminal acts. This is tort law, which is totally and completely separate from criminal law.

I believe the tort law they ran afoul of is this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intenti...ional_distress

Phelps and numerous followers all studied law in college, and they know the boundaries of criminal law down to the letter. They purposely push the boundaries as far as they can without breaking them, so that they can harass people and get away with it. The only recourse to punish someone like that is through tort law. And as this case has aptly proved, we now know it is successful against Westboro. I guarantee you the next time they protest a funeral, they will be sued again.

If you cause harm to someone else while engaging in your rights, you can be held liable for that, even though you broke no criminal laws. The phrase "With rights come responsibilities" is an apt one, here, I think.

[Will-Mun]

Thank you Phone Goddess, I tried to get it through in my last post, but maybe it got garbled in my rant.

It has been mentioned several times now, maybe people are skimming, I don't know. But Phelps broke no laws, he was sued by a person in civil court, for the non Americans, this is a legal dispute between two people. There were no actual criminal charges it was "He caused me emotional damage."

And yes, this topic does seem to be moving to Fratching territory, which is why I made a first amendment thread there last night.

[Sir Spaniard the 12th]

Phelps and Co. sued!

It may be that someone already spied this out, but I am too lazy couldn't find it on the first two pages.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/law/1....ap/index.html

WIN!

[NightAngel]

So, that meant I had to dig back and find it for you.
It was on page 3.

[Shabo]

They're pretty outrageous... Louis Theroux from the BBC did a documentary on them. You can watch it here.

If you skip ahead to about 38 minutes or so, you can see a sermon by Fred Phelps himself. My favorite part is when he says, "18 months now into the seige and you got people eatin' their babies and their small children and each other. They're gonna eat your babies!"

Where's that brain bleach? The older ones may be too far gone, but we might be able to save the young'ns.